S01.E06: Happy Birthday, Lee Harvey Oswald

[AmandaPanda]

It's October 1962, and the gathering storm of threats in Dallas continues to build. Jake must take drastic action to establish the full dimensions of the threat to Kennedy. And amidst it all, he's hit with an unexpected death and a bitter betrayal from one of those closest to him.

[Tinfoil Hat]

I loved the book, but I'm also really enjoying how different this is from the book. It's hard to predict what's going to happen.

But THIS is why having a sidekick is so dangerous.

Interesting to see the return of the Yellow Card Man and the near-disaster of Sadie's surgery (would they use nitrous for that? I mean, that's what I have at the dentist during a teeth cleaning). I thought the Yellow Card Man was there to prevent Jake from making changes to things that had happened in the past, and Sadie getting cut up probably wouldn't have happened, or at least not happened in that particular way, had Jake not been there.

At this point I'm kind of wishing for him to just forget the JFK plan and bring Sadie into his world. I'd love for them to live their lives in the past, but Jake would need credentials to work elsewhere as a teacher. But if he brought Sadie into 2016, would she stay the same age or become her 2016 age?

I wonder if he will disclose to Miz Mimi. She would probably believe him, because his attitudes are so different from those in her day. I could see her finding comfort in the idea that the future will be better, that there will be a Civil Rights Act, an end to laws against cross-racial marriages, etc.

[reggiejax]

Turns out I was right in my prediction that Jake and Bill would not follow Lee to New Orleans, or Mexico City for that matter, and the action would pick up when Lee returned to Dallas

 

I was wrong about Lee and Bill becoming friends. I didn’t think they would go that route because I felt it would be too out of character for Lee, but it happened anyway. And that was just one of many things that were out of whack.

 

First, Agent Hosty did not meet Lee, or even set eyes on him for that matter, until after the assassination. That confrontation, where Lee is upset about Hosty “harassing” Marina took place while Oswald was being interrogated by the police after his arrest on 11/22/63. Also, Lee did not move back in to that same apartment, the one above Jake and Bill, when he returned. At this point, Lee was living in rented rooms in boarding houses. Marina was separated from Lee, and living with Ruth Paine. And Lee did have a birthday party, but it was at the Paine home, with only the Oswalds and Ruth and her two children in attendance. It was not the raucous affair that was shown in the episode. Certainly not filled with members of the White Russian community, all of whom were out of his life by then, and it did not include Lee’s brother and mother. They were both out of Lee’s life and would not see him until after the assassination, a year separating their last meeting. And of course, George de Mohrenschildt was not even in the country. He was in Haiti.

 

I point this all out not to nitpick (ok, to nitpick a little), but rather to illustrate how far off things have become. At first, I thought it was just dramatic license, but of the mundane type that all dramatizations of true events indulge in. But instead it was a drastic change, one owed to the nature of the story. Of all people, screw up Bill pointed out what should have been obvious. His and Jake’s participation has changed things. Whether it is for better or worse remains to be seen, but things have indeed changed. Jake simply cannot see it because he is too involved with his own life to keep up. I was wondering what, if anything, Al had told him about what happened in between the Walker shooting and the assassination. Al told Jake to kill him at the scene of the Walker shooting if he was alone. He must have said something about what to do if it does not play out that way, but I find it hard to imagine Al told Jake to sit it out for the next 6 months. Just what was Jake supposed to do?

[numbnut]

I'm glad they jumped ahead 6 months so we didn't have to sit through Jake explaining his mission to Sadie. I was hoping Jake would take Sadie to the future for surgery and then come back to restart the mission without Bill. They finally found a way to put George MacKay's over-the-top acting to good use by having Bill committed as a crazy person. I still don't get why Kevin O'Connor's character (does he have a name?) didn't intervene with Jake's romance with Sadie a lot sooner, or why he would allow Bill to romance Marina.

Edited March 21, 2016 by numbnut

[GreekGeek]

But if he brought Sadie into 2016, would she stay the same age or become her 2016 age?

 

I assume she would stay the same age. To use a slightly gross analogy, the meat that Al bought back from the past stayed fresh.

I was hoping Jake would take Sadie to the future for surgery and then come back to restart the mission without Bill.

 

Would he then leave her to fend for herself in the future? Suppose he didn't survive the mission? If he went back to 2016 with her and then immediately returned with her, would she even need surgery if everything reset to the way it was before he got there? Going back would mean having to save Harry and family all over again, which Jake may not want to go through again.

 

I was wrong about Lee and Bill becoming friends. I didn’t think they would go that route because I felt it would be too out of character for Lee, but it happened anyway.

 

It seemed out of character for Bill as well. Why would he buddy up with Lee, when Lee is abusive to Marina, whom Bill supposedly loves? I thought at first he was acting friendly to get information out of Lee, but it was presented as a genuine friendship. Very puzzling.

 

Kevin O'Connor's character (does he have a name?)

 

IMDB lists him simply as "Yellow Card Man." 

Edited March 21, 2016 by GreekGeek

[shapeshifter]

I guess we viewers were supposed to side with Jake when he was so angry at Bill at the party, but I kept thinking Bill was the genius and Jake was screwing everything up with his need to be in control. Jake lucked out that Oswald assumed it was the fibbies' bug and not his neighbors' from downstairs.

But then when Jake figured Bill had been groomed by Oswald to be the infamous "second shooter" I thought: Cool.

Not that I was rooting for Bill to shoot Kennedy--just that I thought it was cool that they worked the "second shooter" into the story.

So they went with the scar not being disfiguring; IRL it would fade to a white line only visible from the side.

In another version of this story, Sadie could be more of a badass and go shoot Oswald for Jake.

Edited March 22, 2016 by shapeshifter

[ganesh]

I didn't like the time jump because Jakes while reason the being there was Oswald. What does waiting the six months accomplish? It's also a bit of a stretch to leap to Bill being the second shooter, since Bill wasn't there the first time around. Though I agree that Jake and Bill being there already changed things.

Jane is a dumb gambler. Just bet regularly so they know you as a gambler. Then you afford to lose once and a while and not get a beating. I would be so stinking rich if I had three years to gamble on known outcomes.

If I found out Bill is buddies with the most infamous assassin in literally the entire history of America, I'd tell him to be careful, but the whole point is to learn something no one else knows.

I can't really put it on Bill. Jake hung him out to dry with Walker and then got wrapped up in his own life. Bill isn't a robot. I really hope this doesn't amount to nothing.

I get the past is going to push back, but don't be an idiot either.

Edited March 22, 2016 by ganesh

[zxy556575]

Finding it harder and harder to care about any of this. The CIA may be spritzing weaponized Ambien through my TV speakers.

[reggiejax]

Jake lucked out that Oswald assumed it was the fibbies' bug and not his neighbors' from downstairs.

 

I don't think it was "luck". The audience knew it was Jake and Bill, but Oswald would never have had any reason to believe it was Jake and Bill. Even if Oswald didn't believe the FBI was out to get him, I would be amazed if he thought it was Jake and Bill listening in.

 

But then when Jake figured Bill had been groomed by Oswald to be the infamous "second shooter" I thought: Cool.

Not that I was rooting for Bill to shoot Kennedy--just that I thought it was cool that they worked the "second shooter" into the story.

 

Strangely, if Jake really thought it was Oswald recruiting Bill to be a second shooter, then he would have no reason to believe that anyone but Oswald was behind the assassination, and he would have the proof he needed to go ahead and kill Oswald. 

 

If nothing else, if one believes there was a conspiracy behind the assassination, then it is essentially a given that Oswald is not pulling any strings. You can't be a patsy, framed to take the fall, AND be party to planning the conspiracy as well. 

 

As a side note, I can't think of a single theory involving a second shooter where that second shooter was anyone Oswald was friends with. There have been quite a few people accused or named as the second shooter, and not one was an acquaintance of Oswald's. The closest is a man named James Files. He is a man who has "confessed" to being behind the picket fence, and he claimed to have spent time with Oswald in the week before the assassination. Forgetting for a second that his story is clearly the biggest piece of bullshit in the annals of JFK assassination conspiracy talk, (only rivaled by the story of Judyth Baker, the woman who claimed to be Oswald's mistress), even Files says he only knew Oswald for that one week. Otherwise, the second shooter is generally a pro, brought in to do the job, and had no connection to Oswald. And that is your "JFK assassination minute" for this week. ;)

[shapeshifter]

Strangely, if Jake really thought it was Oswald recruiting Bill to be a second shooter, then he would have no reason to believe that anyone but Oswald was behind the assassination, and he would have the proof he needed to go ahead and kill Oswald.

I thought Jake did reach the conclusion that Oswald was acting alone and was on his way to kill him when he got ambushed. No?

Or are you questioning why Jake bothered to near-strangle the other guy to interrogate him on conspiracies? If so, I think he did that because of the flashback we saw with Al telling Jake he had to eliminate that possibility.

Also, Oswald could have recruited Bill as a second shooter on his own even if Oswald was recruited by a conspiring group.

FWIW: I have no knowledge of JFK conspiracy lore and am watching this as a work of fiction, so no differences from "facts" register on my BS meter.

[reggiejax]

I thought Jake did reach the conclusion that Oswald was acting alone and was on his way to kill him when he got ambushed. No?

 

Or are you questioning why Jake bothered to near-strangle the other guy to interrogate him on conspiracies? If so, I think he did that because of the flashback we saw with Al telling Jake he had to eliminate that possibility.

 

Also, Oswald could have recruited Bill as a second shooter on his own even if Oswald was recruited by a conspiring group.

 

My point was that Jake jumped to a huge conclusion, one that he would realize made no sense if he gave it even a moment's thought.

 

Bill as second shooter only works if you believe that the conspirators, Oswald evidently included as such, are the biggest imbeciles in the world.

 

No conspiracy to kill the President is going to be so dumb as to recruit the local idiot to fulfill such an important role as a second shooter.

 

If it is a conspiracy, it can only be between Lee and Bill. It cannot possibly include any other entity, let alone one such as the CIA or the Mob or Texas Oil Men, or the Dharma Initiative or whoever. Oswald might be stupid enough to try and include Bill, but no one who has put together such a plot is going to be stupid enough to let that stand. They certainly would have never even let Lee believe he could make such a move. You don't have to be an all-powerful, Machiavellian mastermind to know Lee recruiting Bill is too stupid for words.

 

If Lee is recruiting Bill, then there is no big conspiracy. Not even a little one. Oswald is acting on his own, and Jake can kill him right then and there.

 

 

 

FWIW: I have no knowledge of JFK conspiracy lore and am watching this as a work of fiction, so no differences from "facts" register on my BS meter

 

This is of course fiction, and I am watching it as such. But it is also fiction utilizing historical facts. And the one specific fact, the JFK assassination, happens to be an obsession of mine. Try as I might, there is no way I can keep my BS meter off, though I have been keeping my reactions to that, particularly on these boards, as tempered as I can. And yes, this is me tempered when it comes to the JFK assassination.

 

In any case, even if this were pure fiction, that is having no connection to any historical or true life event, recruiting Bill is still terribly idiotic, a plot point I think we wouldn't think twice about pointing out as ludicrous.

Edited March 22, 2016 by reggiejax

[ganesh]

TPTBs have an "out" with the show because, as Bill said, Jake and Bill being there interacting with Oswald possibly changed the "history" that we and Jake know. Of course, it can't change by too much.

 

My point was that Jake jumped to a huge conclusion, one that he would realize made no sense if he gave it even a moment's thought.

 

This was really stupid on Jake's part. There's no way Bill could have been the "original second shooter" since Bill-prime or however to refer to him was most likely still working at the bar in KY because he never met Jake. Unless Jake assumed they changed the original history and now Bill was the second shooter, which Jake would have only known about from the original history, so it still falls apart.

 

The reaction was dumb anyway. Bill felt genuinely bad about the wife literally being beaten, and stuck up a friendship. He was on his own a lot, while Jake was with Sadie. Obviously this was risky, but Bill is already installed as a friend and reported some intel to Jake. At this point, Sadie knows what's going on, so Jake can spend more time eavesdropping with Bill upstairs with Oswald. 

 

Honestly, at this point, Jake screwed up so much that I'd just reset. *If* he can take Sadie to 2016, then he should. They can plan it all out for a year or so or whatever, and then go back and just focus on the assassination. I'd record *everything* that I could bet on. Go back, devote your time totally to the case, and not worry about money. Cash deposits to a bank account were routine back then anyway. You'd have to stay away from Jodie, but Sadie-prime got away from the husband without Jake, and wouldn't have been all cut up in the first place. 

[dr pepper]

Just started watching the episode. I see they gave Sadie a traditional Hollywood scar: on the side of the face, easily hidden by bangs.

[shapeshifter]

Honestly, at this point, Jake screwed up so much that I'd just reset. *If* he can take Sadie to 2016, then he should. They can plan it all out for a year or so or whatever, and then go back and just focus on the assassination. I'd record *everything* that I could bet on. Go back, devote your time totally to the case, and not worry about money. Cash deposits to a bank account were routine back then anyway. You'd have to stay away from Jodie, but Sadie-prime got away from the husband without Jake, and wouldn't have been all cut up in the first place.

Just because I love to ponder time travel paradoxes: Wouldn't the reset cause Sadie to disappear from 2016?

Would Jake plan to kill Henry's abusive father, Sadie's ex, and Oswald?

Regardless, if they do a reset, I will be annoyed if Jake doesn't spend some time learning Russian.

[ganesh]

No one on the show thinks people in the past can't go to 2016. It would be more dramatic if Sadie can't, so Jake knows he would have to start over.

I wouldn't even bother with KY or Bill the next time around. Especially if he's going to try to meet Sadie again. He knows she's ok with it. I'd get set up in TX and just start making some gambling money.

Jake should definitely learn Russian for sure.

[molshoop]

 

or the Dharma Initiative

 

     Thanks for the laugh.

[BonnieD]

I can't really put it on Bill. Jake hung him out to dry with Walker and then got wrapped up in his own life.

Jake is quite a selfish guy where Bill is concerned. He should easily be able to see that Bill has made him into a father figure to replace the crappy one he had. All he ever does is snap directions at isolated, lonely Bill. If he'd treated him with a modicum of kindness and listened to his suggestions now and then, even if he chose not to follow them, Bill's attitude might have been totally different. He may not have gotten so involved with the Oswalds. They were the only people he "knew" in the area. Poor, sad, lonely hillbilly Bill.

 

As stated above, Jack is a control freak. To make a scene at the party rather than talking to Bill later about his recon work was just dumb.

 

I actually like this divergence from the book by having a sidekick. It makes things more interesting. I recall skimming during the latter part of the book because I grew bored with all the surveillance part. As far as the second shooter thing--that's Jake jumping to assumptions based on the conspiracy theories he's read. Don't believe even in this timeline that there would've been a second shooter. Again, he was absolutely cruel to try to keep Dumb Bill away by signing him into the mental ward. Bad all around. I'm growing to despise Jake and Franco's perpetual little frown. At this point, I'm quite ready for the show to wrap up and be done.

[ganesh]

I don't think much of what Bill had to say was stupid or anything. "Maybe we've changed things by being here." Maybe. Is that so hard to consider? Bill feeling bad about Marina being beaten isn't a bad thing either. 

 

Jake is forgetting that while he has the luxury of hindsight, it's only large things: Oswald in Mexico, when Walker is shot, etc. Obviously, the assassination. Day to day, he doesn't know what happens. He's affected Deke, Mimi, Sadie, Bill, and all those students' lives (the jock who could act) completely different than what was in the original timeline just by being there. He's seriously lacking a self-awareness of his position and it's started to blow up in his face.

 

I think he's wasted the 3 years. He has to reset or quit. 

[KaveDweller]

Just because I love to ponder time travel paradoxes: Wouldn't the reset cause Sadie to disappear from 2016?

 

If the tree carving disappeared then I would think Sadie would too. But I don't know what would happen if Sadie went back with him the second time. Maybe that would give them an out for the reset? Would there be two of her? But we don't even know if she can go into the future.

 

This was really stupid on Jake's part. There's no way Bill could have been the "original second shooter" since Bill-prime or however to refer to him was most likely still working at the bar in KY because he never met Jake. Unless Jake assumed they changed the original history and now Bill was the second shooter, which Jake would have only known about from the original history, so it still falls apart.

 

He couldn't be the original second shooter, but he could be a replacement for someone Oswald used the first time. And his trying to recruit Bill could be seen as proof that he's going to recruit someone no matter what (and therefore locking Bill up will serve nothing).

 

I love the little things in any time travel story: "In the future, people carry their phones around in their hands all the time."   "No, tell me something real."

[ganesh]

He couldn't be the original second shooter, but he could be a replacement for someone Oswald used the first time.

 

That's a slight stretch. Also, it would prove Bill's "being here could mean we changed something", which Jake rejected. if that's the case, the line should have been "Bill was right. Second shooter. Oh no." Not to mention that Bill hasn't spouted any weird commie leanings all of a sudden, and he's not one to keep it close to his vest. And Bill provided the very valuable intel that Oswald "hasn't mentioned anything at all." Oswald isn't being shown as Machiavelli by a long shot. To go from "not mentioned anything at all" to trying to recruit Bill in a matter of days is unlikely. 

 

I can buy that theory, but that wasn't what was presented on the show. I don't mind inferring things, but the show has to show Jake coming around to "maybe just by being here I changed things." I haven't seen that in this episode. 

 

We all know Jake has been botching this for the most part, so jumping to conclusions and acting illogically seems more in character.

 

Given all the prep he had before going into the past, he's handled this ridiculously poor, and he's really underestimated and mistreated Bill. Additionally, Bill also raised the point: Why shoot Walker and then JFK? Both were diametrically opposed politically. 

 

I do believe that by just being there, Jake and Bill have clearly affected the original history to some degree. So either Jake apologizes to Bill and see if they can reconcile and go from there, or just reset, and Jake just becomes some phantom and doesn't interact with anyone. 

[reggiejax]

Additionally, Bill also raised the point: Why shoot Walker and then JFK? Both were diametrically opposed politically.

 

 

No doubt Walker and JFK are on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but to Lee Harvey Oswald, a dedicated Marxist who despised capitalism and the United States, that just makes them opposite sides of the same coin. And suffice it to say, Lee hates the coin, and everything it represents, above all.

 

Walker was an obvious target, being an extreme right-wing segregationist, and a high profile one at that. It is easy to see why Oswald would go after him.

 

JFK is a little harder to see. Oswald was even purported to have spoken well of the man. But we have to remember, above everything else, JFK was the President. And as such he is the leader and representative of everything Oswald hates, regardless of who JFK was as a man, or what Oswald thought of him personally.

[KaveDweller]

That's a slight stretch. Also, it would prove Bill's "being here could mean we changed something", which Jake rejected. if that's the case, the line should have been "Bill was right. Second shooter. Oh no."

Oh yeah, it's definitely a stretch. But Jake's not necessarily the most logical thinker right now. I just meant that could be going on in his head as he panics.

But I think Jake knew he was wrong about not changing things when he heard Bill at the party. His argument had been that they couldn't have changed anything because they never interacted with Lee. Once he knew that wasn't the case he knew they'd changed things somehow.

[ganesh]

It makes sense. I think Jake could have conveyed that a little more to the viewers. 

 

In that case, then, history is thrown out the window in a way, and Jake has no idea what's going on. Even more reason to reset. 

 

This can't be right, but Yellow Card Man isn't a future version of Jake, right?

Edited March 25, 2016 by ganesh

[GreekGeek]

Unless there's a huge change from the book, no, he is not.

This can't be right, but Yellow Card Man isn't a future version of Jake, right?

Edited March 27, 2016 by GreekGeek

[lucindabelle]

Hate the whole yellow card man thing. Very stephen King and not in a good way.

Please please PLEASE STOP referencing the book here. Spoilers come through inadvertently.

Even the unless above. Ugh.

[shapeshifter]

Please please PLEASE STOP referencing the book here. Spoilers come through inadvertently.

Even the unless above. Ugh.

Agreed. The whole replying post should have had spoiler tags.

When Bill was first introduced, I think most posts agreed that even though he didn't exist in the book, he exists in the show so Jake can share what he is thinking with the audience (and, BTW, this is an example of when mentioning the book is not a spoiler, IMO). Now Bill seems to have graduated to representing one side of the warring opinions of what to do that exist within Jake's mind.

The Australian actor playing Lee Harvey Oswald should have had a voice coach. His attempts at a Southern accent sound like a speech impediment to a degree that takes me out of the scene every time.

Edited March 27, 2016 by shapeshifter

[GreekGeek]

 

Unless there's a huge change from the book, no, he is not.

This can't be right, but Yellow Card Man isn't a future version of Jake, right?

 

My apologies to fellow viewers who were "spoiled." I agree I should have hidden the whole reply.

[Tinfoil Hat]

If Jake can change things just by being there and whether he intends to or not, wouldn't it be risky to bet on sports outcomes? Perhaps in some small way, jake's actions could affect the players or game.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Tinfoil Hat

[ganesh]

Probably not. The closer one is to the action the more influence on it, is typically the time travel go-to. Ripples on the pond. Jake isn't going to affect the world series in NYC. 

 

No one watched E7 yet?

[numbnut]

No one watched E7 yet?

 

I watched it but there's no forum for it. Strange.

[ganesh]

I've got 4 minutes to go. 

[hincandenza]

Despite the flaws, I've been enjoying this series for what it is- an entertaining "what-if" miniseries, low on commitment and kind of fun to return to those pre-binge watching days when TV was consumed week by week, with the long gap to contemplate what will happen next.  Knowing it'll be over after next Monday helps alleviate worries about plot lines and pacing, since hey, it's not like I'm committing to six full-length seasons of bullshit cliffhangers and dropped plot lines and poor character development (gives side-eye to "Lost").

 

Jake is, without much doubt, one of the all-time most inept time travelers.  Someone above mentioned that there was a gap between Al's death and the actual trip, but Jake seems to have not planned very well for a three-year journey to the past.  Things like multiple sources/copies of documents, better ways of discreetly making enough money he could lay low, having futuristic items in case he ever needed to prove himself (I still don't get him hurling the iPhone into the river).  As BonnieD mentioned above, his treatment and handling of Bill is almost comically inept.  I mean, the poor hillbilly has spent 3 years basically in a prison for this quest, holed up in a dingy apartment playing the home game version of "The Conversation".  I don't even fully blame Bill: after three years, I'd be thinking "Eh, fuck JFK" about this point myself.

 

Not to mention, given that the ever spoo-o-o-oky "The Past" will kill an innocent woman in a car crash just by Jake walking up to a phone booth, or set a house on fire so he can't get his papers... what did Al and Jake think was going to happen if they actually shoot at Oswald or any true conspirator so as to derail a major event like JFK's death?  And why did Al think the Yellow Card Man was unimportant, since clearly he is not?!?!  Although the way this episode ended- i haven't seen tonight's yet- it's not even certain Jake didn't just coma his way right past 11/22/63, while poor Bill is locked up in the nuthouse, and we'll start the penultimate episode with him having failed completely, and faced with either going back and restarting, or just going back and giving up.  My own pet theory has been that he will attempt to stop the assassination, and somehow end up framed/implicated as the shooter, stuck in the past or shot dead as JFK's official killer (we did meet Jack Ruby in an early episode, after all).

 

I'm still not sure how this will all end, although I've noticed some comments in this thread about second shooter, etc, and there's always the possibility of a "bootstrap paradox".  This is a convention in time travel stories whereby the time traveler changes things in such a way that what we think of as the "real" timeline only happen because they went back- in response to the original event in their original timeline... hence the "paradox" part.  We think of the general JFK assassination mythos that there was a second shooter on the ridge, but it's not inconceivable that Bill is and always was the second shooter (assuming Jake is remotely correct in his assumption that him playing with guns == second shooter), and thus Jake was always destined to come back and take actions that would result in Bill becoming the second shooter and possibly, the true assassin of JFK.

[shapeshifter]

Jake is, without much doubt, one of the all-time most inept time travelers.

Heh. So true.