S07.E10: Hell Is Other People

[formerlyfreedom]

After finding himself on the wrong end of Julian’s plan to avenge Lily’s death, Damon awakens to find himself trapped inside the Phoenix stone, tormented by a traumatic experience from his time in the Civil War and forced to face his darkest demon in order to get out. On the outside, Bonnie is in a race against the clock to get Damon out before the effects of the Phoenix stone take over and leave him changed forever.

 

 

[PinkRibbons]

Okay, so this episode has leaked online and my best guess is that a CW affiliate (possibly a non-US one) has kept the old airtime. Does anyone know where it's leaking from?

[Artsda]

The Vampire Diaries still airs on CTV on Thursdays in Canada. Although CW changed to Fridays, Canada still airs at the same day and time.

 

It should be warned/noted that before it does air Friday night, there will be spoilers in here.  

Edited January 29, 2016 by Artsda

[ElectricBoogaloo]

During the hiatus, I somehow managed to forget how annoying Julian was.

 

Maybe it's because we haven't had a Salvatore brother flashback for a while, but Damon's flashback hair didn't look that bad. Then again, I always found Stefan's flashback hair worse than Damon's.

 

I knew from the beginning that it had to be a trick that Damon was out of the stone, but I still enjoyed Damon's endless Groundhog Day cycle. It was fun to see him go from cocky on his second trip to the farmhouse to bored/angry/annoyed during his following trips.

 

My least favorite part was the expected resolution of Damon admitting that he just wanted his mommy. I was totally fine with him being mad at her for leaving him and Stefan with their asshole father, never coming back for them, choosing her heretic family over him and Stefan, telling him that he was a reminder of her terrible marriage, and denying him as her son. Lily was a terrible mother over and over. I actually found Stefan to be a dumbass for eventually reconciling with her. Yes, Damon has demonstrated repeatedly that he knows how to hold a grudge but at least his resentment of Lily made sense. She abandoned him and had no regret about it until one or two episodes before she died.

 

What I found interesting is that Damon often lashes out and acts impulsively without considering the consequences, but the final scene in this episode wasn't because of that. He had relived that day so many times that he thought there were NO consequences since it wasn't real. I'm not sure how /why killing someone was the key to resetting the clock and putting him back in the infirmary but he assumed that on his second attempt when he killed Stefan to start over.

 

I hated Stefan's explanation about why they couldn't pull Damon out of the stone yet. So because Stefan gave in to the most painful pain that ever pained right away, Bonnie was able to pop him out right away. But because Damon was avoiding pain (as most rational people do), Bonnie couldn't get him out. Oookay.

 

I found it totally hilarious that in the first Groundhog Day, Damon was shirtless when Bonnie brought him out of the phoenix stone but every time after that he had a shirt on. It's like Damon's subconscious was thinking, "This isn't even real, so why bother being hot and shirtless?"

Edited January 29, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Artsda]

I loved how more frustrated Damon got with each repeat of the groundhog day. It was funny, how over it he became each repeat of the day.

 

I wasn't fond of the mommy feels being the reason he kept repeating. The first time he woke up with Bonnie he wondered where everyone was, life went on. Final scene when he's really awake everyone is there keeping vigil (not sure why Matt cares) and he practically kills them all. All over his awful mother?

almost 

[miss-vanilla]

 

 

My least favorite part was the expected resolution of Damon admitting that he just wanted his mommy. I was totally fine with him being mad at her for leaving him and Stefan with their asshole father, never coming back for them, choosing her heretic family over him and Stefan, telling him that he was a reminder of her terrible marriage, and denying him as her son. Lily was a terrible mother over and over. I actually found Stefan to be a dumbass for eventually reconciling with her. Yes, Damon has demonstrated repeatedly that he knows how to hold a grudge but at least his resentment of Lily made sense. She abandoned him and had no regret about it until one or two episodes before she died.

 

 

I hated Stefan's explanation about why they couldn't pull Damon out of the stone yet. So because Stefan gave in to the most painful pain that ever pained right away, Bonnie was able to pop him out right away. But because Damon was avoiding pain (as most rational people do), Bonnie couldn't get him out. Oookay.

 

 

Couldn't agree more. I found the link between the tragic civil war massacre  and his refusal to forgive Lily tenuous at best, at completely nonsensical at worst.

Damon actually articulated his reasons for hating her very well again, and again I thought his reasons were completely rational and plausible.

I never doubted that Damon loved his Mother with all his heart, it was obvious. Her repeated betrayals hurt him beyond measure because he loved her so much, and betrayals by the people you love most are the hardest to forgive IMO.

I understand what they were going for in this, that Damon had to let go of his hate and forgive his mother because carrying those negative emotions around in his heart was tearing apart everything good about Damon that had come to the surface over the last few years, and it was destroying him, but, I still can't help but feeling it was a convoluted,contrived  bit of storytelling to get to make that point.

 

 

Stefan and his acceptance of his pain was just typical of how badly he is written, and how they frame his actions throughout the series. I do wonder if they will ever show us exactly what pain or lesson he had to learn before he could be released from the stone?

Again, I didn't like the completely contrived logic of hallucination Stefan deducing that Damons drive to get home was because he missed his Mom (who was dead), rather than see his brother. How? It doesn't make any sense since the catalyst was the damned letter, but of course Stefan needs to remain blameless in all this.

 

Aside from the above, I enjoyed the episode more than any other this season. I always wanted to see more of human Damon and his experience of the civil war, and we got that, and we got see that some of vamp Damons characteristics were present as a human, especially when groundhog day really started to ramp up, he was cocky, funny and so done!

 

I'm assuming the end scenes were real,  but Damon thinks they are not?

Edited January 29, 2016 by miss-vanilla

[Primetimer]

In an episode that's like Groundhog Day, but with more killing.

Read the story

[Cattitude]

I thought that was horrible. Single worst for me and that is saying something. It was not the least enjoyable. I did like the last scene and that's about it. Now some random dude from the civil war is going to be a new character?

 

I guess I'm the most pissed that even dead dead we aren't rid of Lily AND annoying Julian is still a thing. ugh!

[GaT]

I can't tell you how not interesting I found this episode. After all this time off, this is the crap they come back with? I bet this is their final season.

[rue721]

I really enjoyed it. The way they reinvented Groundhog Day was clever imo.

 

The problem of Damon being unable to keep get Henry, the deserters, and the three women out of the farmhouse safely reminded me of that old riddle:  You have a wolf, a chicken, and a bag of grain. You have to cross the river in your canoe but can only take one with you at a time. The riddle's solution is: 

You take the chicken across, then go back for the grain. Once you get across with the grain, you put the chicken back in the canoe. You drop the chicken off at the original side and take the wolf across. Then you finally go back and pick up the chicken from the original side and bring it across (again), too.

 

I think the solution to the riddle shows how the farmhouse problem connects with Damon figuring out how to get out of the Phoenix Stone. In all those situations (the riddle, the farmhouse, escaping the Stone), the only way you can ultimately get what you want is if you're willing to accept a setback. Damon's idea that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line" doesn't work.

 

What's troubling is that Damon never figures out the answer to the farmhouse problem. He never figures out how to get Henry, the deserters, and the women all out safely. And then when Damon escapes the Stone, he kills everybody as efficiently as possible in order to get a reset as quickly as possible. He's still in the mindset of "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line."

 

Anyway, the ending was fantastic. Damon is the lone survivor, just like the first time at the farmhouse. He's back to missing his mom in just the same way, I guess. So maybe he's not going in "a straight line" after all?

 

Idk, I thought it was a clever and interesting episode. And IS has gotten so much better as an actor, it's pretty amazing. That last scene between him and Lily really got me, and he really carried it.

[miss-vanilla]

@rue721.

Very interesting and thought provoking analysis. While I get what you are saying, I still don't understand how this "lesson" Damon needs to learn, is related to his inability to forgive his mother?

 

There was a line from Stefan, something about needing to face the kind of pain that breaks you in order to be released from the stone.

Are the writers trying to suggest that Damon has been circumventing his pain as a human and a vampire?

Because he can't/won't embrace the pain, he can't forgive?

 

Although I enjoyed the episode for it's entertainment value, on closer inspection it doesn't really make much sense to me yet.

[rue721]

@rue721.

Very interesting and thought provoking analysis. While I get what you are saying, I still don't understand how this "lesson" Damon needs to learn, is related to his inability to forgive his mother?

 

I don't think Damon needs to forgive Lily, and I don't think he did. I do think he admitted he loves/needs/misses her, though.

 

The Phoenix Stone is a torture device, so I think it kept throwing Lily at him as long as he wanted to avoid her, and then expelled him when he wanted to be near her. Getting expelled from the Stone (or at least not resetting to the same moment in 1863) doesn't mean that his torture is over yet, though.

 

I think the problem that Damon is facing with his family is that now he knows that he wants to include Lily in it. That's what the Stone has taught him so far. So now he has to get himself, Stefan, *and* Lily home safe -- which means that now, he's facing the same issue with his family as he was with the farmhouse problem (and that the riddle deals with). How can he get *all* three of them home safe?

 

Within the Stone, he kept trying to get to Stefan and finding just Lily. Then, in the end, he got to Stefan -- but lost Lily in the process (of getting out of the Stone). To try and trigger a reset, and get back to Lily, he ended up killing/losing Stefan, too. So he's still stuck in the same old conundrum as he was at the farmhouse. Each way he tries doing things, he can get maybe one person home safe -- but not all three of them.

 

I'm not sure how Damon is going to figure out the answer to that riddle, so I'm not sure yet what lesson he's going to learn from the solution, though.

[Couver]

I found the episode a little uneven. It was good overall. The flashbacks are always a bit corny and IS wasn't at his best there. Especially when he was talking to his commanding officer. But I agree that his wig for these flashbacks is way way better than PW's.

 

The action outside of that was great. It was nice to see the core cast of characters coming together to solve this with no guest appearances by the heretics. Though it did make me wonder why Valerie was not helping Bonnie with this spell. A nice little nod to how powerful Bonnie is though since she performed a spell it it took 3 heretics to do twice on her own. I was also glad she told Stefan off there when he kept pushing her. They really take her for granted and try and order her around.

 

I agree with those saying the forgiveness of Lily was a little heavy handed. She was not a good mother. Yes she made a sacrifice right at the end but up until that point she had been very vindictive and petty. I think it would have sat better with me if Damon forgave her as a way to move on for himself. Not so much for her. Maybe that was what they were going for but it didn't seem clear to me.

 

I was expecting what happened at the end but it was still a good cliff hanger. I'm guessing Caroline & Stefan are fine. Matt has his ring. So Damon only needs to revive Bonnie with his blood.

 

I also hope they story with the hunter really kicks into gear now.

[miss-vanilla]

I don't think Damon needs to forgive Lily, and I don't think he did. I do think he admitted he loves/needs/misses her, though.

 

The Phoenix Stone is a torture device, so I think it kept throwing Lily at him as long as he wanted to avoid her, and then expelled him when he wanted to be near her. Getting expelled from the Stone (or at least not resetting to the same moment in 1863) doesn't mean that his torture is over yet, though.

 

I think the problem that Damon is facing with his family is that now he knows that he wants to include Lily in it. That's what the Stone has taught him so far. So now he has to get himself, Stefan, *and* Lily home safe -- which means that now, he's facing the same issue with his family as he was with the farmhouse problem (and that the riddle deals with). How can he get *all* three of them home safe?

 

Within the Stone, he kept trying to get to Stefan and finding just Lily. Then, in the end, he got to Stefan -- but lost Lily in the process (of getting out of the Stone). To try and trigger a reset, and get back to Lily, he ended up killing/losing Stefan, too. So he's still stuck in the same old conundrum as he was at the farmhouse. Each way he tries doing things, he can get maybe one person home safe -- but not all three of them.

 

I'm not sure how Damon is going to figure out the answer to that riddle, so I'm not sure yet what lesson he's going to learn from the solution, though.

Again, another insightful analysis, thank you.

Your theories are very plausible and relatable to what we have seen so far.

Lets see if the show plays out the way you have described.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

Very entertaining episode, IMO.

Interesting use of Henry, Uncle Daddy John Gilbert's tomb vampire from S1.

I thought Ian did a great job in this episode.

And now both my favorite TV characters love pie! :)

[raytch]

Wow we're down to 15 replies per episode. I guess we're all bored as hell with this show.

I just saw the episode. Definitely the most entertaining of the season so far and kudos for IS who carried the entire hour on his own. I just can't seem to get myself to be invested with the show anymore. The final twist about Damon being sorry that he never got to say to Lily that he loved her doesn't sit well with me because as most of you pointed out, she was terrible and he had good reason to hate her. She disappointed him too many times and I don't see how this is supposed to be some kind of grand character growth.

I didn't see it as a retcon, as someone pointed out above, Damon only said that he loved her, which is not a stretch no matter what Lily did. It just didn't land for me...

[miss-vanilla]

For me it comes down the writing for Lily.

They wrote her as an awful mother, who not only faked her death and abandoned her Sons, but then went on and rubbed salt in that wound by replacing them with a new family in her heart. Damon and Stefan both did things to incur her wrath after that when they tried to take the heretics out, BUT, the "vase" story did nothing to create any viewership warmth to her character since she implied that she was aware of Guiseppe's harsh punishments for small misdemeanors, and was happy to to enhance such discipline by adding psychological punishment. On the surface, given the situation, one could argue that Damon had it coming since he killed Malcolm, but in retrospect, we learn that Lily was an accomplice in the demise of Elena, a truth she hid from Damon while spouting all the sanctimonious, righteous BS she did. Just ughh!

Lily was nothing short of a hypocritical bitch, the writers wrote that story, and they hurriedly tried to turn that perception around in like 1 episode, and I'm not buying that she earned that kind of forgiveness that warranted not just a whole episode devoted to bringing Damon to his knees to validate her, but a whole series worth of Damon issues with his mothers' death, nope.

 

Introducing Lily in 6x16/17 definitely added more layers and complexity to Damon's feelings about his mother going forwards, but to imply the root of Damon's personality and character as we know him from s1-s6.5 was shaped by what he thought was his mothers "normal human death" feels like simplifying his character back inS1 etc, rather than adding new dimensions. After all, most "humans" will have to face losing parents, and back in 1858, the death of a parent, even at a young age was fairly common place.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say very incoherently, is that I buy that Damon has "mommy issues" right now, given what he learned about her since he found out his perceived reality was a huge lie, because all that MUST be quite a shock, BUT, I don't buy that Damon's whole life including his vampire issues are all somewhat tied to his "mommy issues". For me that is a massive retcon.

 

I have watched this one 4 times now, and each time I watch it I become more annoyed, and confused!!!

Perhaps the lack of comments is an indication that I'm not the only one?

It's hard to comment when the the premise is confusing and nonsensical, but looking at the wider media, it would seem this episode was received very well across the varying factions of the fandom, and  as we all know, people are more likely to comment when they are unhappy with something, rather then when they are satisfied.

Anyway, who the hell really knows, I sure as hell don't.

Edited February 4, 2016 by miss-vanilla

[ByTor]

I don't buy that Damon's whole life including his vampire issues are all somewhat tied to his "mommy issues".

I think this is a problem with much of the writing for Damon. It seems like there's always something to blame for why Damon is the way he is. Now it's mommy; it used to be Katherine. I wish Damn were just allowed to be an asshole because he's an asshole, not because he can't help being one due to his having been "victimized" in one way or another.

[immortalfrieza]

I have watched this one 4 times now, and each time I watch it I become more annoyed, and confused!!!

Perhaps the lack of comments is an indication that I'm not the only one?

It's hard to comment when the the premise is confusing and nonsensical, but looking at the wider media, it would seem this episode was received very well across the varying factions of the fandom, and  as we all know, people are more likely to comment when they are unhappy with something, rather then when they are satisfied.

Nah, if most people were confused and annoyed it would result in a massive increase in comments all complaining about and trying to clarify what's going on. People are actually well aware of the issues with this episode, therefore the comments have already said anything of worth to be said at this point. There's little point in everybody simply stating the same things 50 times.

 

I think this is a problem with much of the writing for Damon. It seems like there's always something to blame for why Damon is the way he is. Now it's mommy; it used to be Katherine. I wish Damn were just allowed to be an asshole because he's an asshole, not because he can't help being one due to his having been "victimized" in one way or another.

Damon nothing, the problem with the writing for this entire show is that each episode is about either having the characters do incredibly horrific things while being annoying twats or trying to justify the incredibly horrific things the characters did and the fact that they are annoying twats afterward in an always badly failing attempt at getting the characters back in the viewers good graces and still see them as decent people, and this is just another one of those. Damon is the one they do this the most to without question on this show, especially now that Klaus has an entire show dedicated to doing the same thing to him, but every character on The Vampire Diaries that lasts more than an episode is an unrepentant and hypocritical psychopath that the show spends way too much time trying to justify the behavior of instead of just owning up to it, which would be far more interesting.