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Artymouse

By Artymouse
in Downton Abbey [V]

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dustoffmom
dustoffmom

Call me an old curmudgeon, which my grown children often do, but I will not tolerate a child calling me by my first name.  Or calling any other adult  by their first name if I am within earshot.  I im

Llywela
Llywela

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kassygreene
kassygreene

If by Edwardians she meant part of the Marlborough House Set, then it's probably just a nod to those viewers not intimate with Victorian Era aristocratic cliques.  

Atlanta

Atlanta

A question about the layout of the grounds of the estate, but not Highclere. In the DA world, how close are the Dower House and Crawley House to the abbey? Did Violet and Isobel need to be driven to each other's place or was it an easy walk? They do hang together a lot. :) Just curious how easy it would be for V or I to drop in and visit the big house.

FriendlyOne

FriendlyOne

This is driving me crazy.

I NEED TO FIND AN EPISODE BEFORE MY HEART GIVES OUT.

Vera Bates commits suicide. Next episode John Bates is asked by Lord Grantham how she did it. He considers the rat poison ( arsenic) he bought.

Mentions it to Anna.

He's worried. Then he receives  (from his lawyer) a copy of a letter from Vera writing to her friend, saying that "John Bates is coming tonight, I'm scared" (sic). 

He's more worried he'll be framed. Vera was poisoned/made to look like suicide. He is arrested for murder.

Anna goes to John's house ( he had to share with Vera before he left), finds

her adress book and asks him to copy names. She will write to all the people whom Vera could have written to saying she was depressed ( meaning she would have had a motive to commit suicide thereby freeing Bates).

OK, so she finds Mrs Whatsername ( Vera's friend) in London. Goes to visit her to  ask about Vera's mood on the last day. 

The friend mentions the scrubbing of the fingers and a weird luminescent halo from Vera's head in the lamplight. 

OK SO MY QUESTION IS THIS-------------------> 

At SOME POINT IN THE SHOW ( I don't know which episode), the "halo" around the head" of Vera, is the actual proof of her having been drinking Arsenic for a long time, therefore making it impossible that Bates killed her, and proving she had for along time been slowly killing herself by swallowing arsenic.

This halo is a common side effect of arsenic poisoning ( read about it anywhere, and is in fact mentioned in an Agatha Christie book). 

BUT, WHICH IS THE EPISODE in Downton that this out-loud dialogue. I'm guessing from a pathologist, or the lawyer or a doctor,  is shown? WHICH FREAKING EPISODE!! 

I'm not talking about when Anna visits Bates to update him on that conversation with the woman. I'm talking about when the halo is mentioned as PROOF.

I can't find it. When I first watched Downton , I'm convinced I saw it. It's either a bit of dialogue from a policeman or the lawyer of SOMEone. 

 

I've read every transcript I can find, yet it eiudes me. 

Please let me know in which episode, the description if Vera's halo as proof go her long-term arsenic ingestion, mentioned. Please! 

 

Oy vey!

AZChristian

AZChristian

Would it be around Season 3, Episode 6?   That's where Mrs. Bartlett is going to change her story because she is threatened by someone at the prison, so it might make sense that that's where the policeman or lawyer talks about it.  I have all the DVDs.  If you'd like, I could re-watch it, but I'd need it to be narrowed down a bit.  If I start back at Season 1, Episode 1, I'll get roped in and accomplish nothing else for a couple of days.  LOL.

SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

I think it was Audrey Bartlett, Vera's friend (who may have found the body) who provided the "halo" reference after Anna contacted her after studying Vera's journal and letters ... 

from Downton Wiki:

Quote

Anna visits Bates in prison. She found Vera's journal and letters, while cleaning the house, and wants Bates to go through them to make a list of all friends, acquaintances, and tradesmen as Anna wants to question everyone for more information about Vera. Bates doesn't see the point, but Anna says that she won't stop until he is proved innocent. Bates tells her that he has a new cellmate that he is unsure of, and Anna warns him not to make enemies. When he asks how much time she will spend on these investigations, she gives a sad smile and asks if he has someplace to go.

IMDB says that Bartlett (Clare Higgins) appeared in 2 episodes, 2012 

from another downton blog 

Quote

When evidence in the form of testimony by Audrey Bartlett (Bates's former wife Vera's friend) came to light that would free Bates, Craig and Durrant leaned on Mrs Bartlett to withhold the testimony. Bates found this out and threatened to expose Craig and Durrant's drug business unless they removed the pressure (or incentive) from Mrs Bartlett. Craig and Durrant must have acted soon thereafter, since Mrs. Bartlett gives testimony to Lord Grantham's and Bates's lawyer Murray right away and Bates is released from prison.

IMDB has changed it's layout and I cannot tell which two episodes the actress appeared in ... I vaguely recall a halo but also something about the pie crust and her fingertips or fingernails ...   found it -- episode 3 and episode 6 (Bartlett was mentioned in episode 5.

from downton wikilink to vera bates page (bottom)

Quote

Vera had been ingesting Arsenic for a long time before her death: Vera's state of mind being described as "paranoid yet determined" and the "scrubbing of her fingers" both confirm this - Arsenic, over a long period of time, changes the pigmentation of your fingernails. The strongest point to back up the case for Vera having ingested Arsenic for a long time is when Mrs Bartlett says that Vera was described as "wearing a halo" - Arsenic, after it has had time to get into the lungs, makes the person's breath fluorescent, which is where the halo - made from Vera's breath - would have come from.

FriendlyOne

FriendlyOne

AZ Christian thanks. I'm rewatching ( again) Series 3 Ep 6. Have re watched all of series 3 in the last two days. 

Mrs Bartlett does change her story, but I can't find that scene. Anna goes to Bates in EP 5 to describe how she'd talked to Bartlett and to tell him about Bartless saying " I saw Vera with a halo". 

But the next episode is Bates being released. There is no in between scene with police, or lawyer saying "yes, the halo is a common effect of arsenic, therefore Vera Bates must have being consuming it for a long time and this proves his guilt" ( or something to that end).

Susan Sunflower = this is info I've poured over but we already know Anna goes to see Bartlett and Bartlett tells her for the first time, of a halo effect, and scrubbing  of the fingers. In the Bartlett scene, this is the first time it's said out loud - that Vera had a halo and scrubbing the fingers. 

And yes, the Wiki info is that, the halo is a side effect of arsenic. But NONE OF THIS IS KNOWN by the people in Downton. This is extra info for us viewers. 

I am looking for the scene, where the halo, and its' proof that Vera was ingesting arsenic for a while, is explained.  Bartlett only mentions it, and Anna thinks it's weird. So does Bates. But I'm looking for the key scene where someone like pathologist, doctor etc, explains WHY this would prove Bates is innocent ( because it proves long time arsenic poisoning. 

Like I said, its making me potty. Thanks for your input, and I've already watched each of these scenes a dozen times. Episode 5 is where Anna goes to Bates to inform him of what Bartlett said about the halo and finger scrubbing. At that point, with Anna sitting across from Bates in jail, neither of them know the halo is a long term arsenic effect.

 

I need to know who says it!

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SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

I have a very vague memory that the halo effect was mentioned episodes later ... in an unlikely moment, perhaps Mary explaining to Cora, or Isobel explaining to Violet or Mrs. Pattmore explaining to Daisy how they knew -- despite Bates providing the Arsenic -- that he was not the poisoner and therefore innocent.  It was quite "in passing" but also quite "after the fact" as if Fellowes realized he had left that delicious factoid out of the original script.  Not terribly helpful ...  

SAIRY

SAIRY

I've watched the series and read the script books numerous times and I never heard the explanation of the halo - which I find very interesting, thanks for mentioning it!  I was not aware till now that the halo Mrs Bartlett saw was anything more than a figment of her imagination.  I am pretty sure that the explanation was not given anywhere in the actual show.

On 3.1.2017 at 10:51 PM, Atlanta said:

A question about the layout of the grounds of the estate, but not Highclere. In the DA world, how close are the Dower House and Crawley House to the abbey? Did Violet and Isobel need to be driven to each other's place or was it an easy walk? They do hang together a lot. :) Just curious how easy it would be for V or I to drop in and visit the big house.

You often see Isobel dropping in to visit Violet and I never got the impression that she had been driven there.  In general, I think that a century or two ago (and earlier too, of course) it was normal for people to do a lot more walking to get places than they do today.  Jane Austen's characters think nothing of walking a couple of miles into town to do some shopping or over to the next estate to visit the neighbors.

Violet, being much older, probably got driven places more than Isobel.

SusanSunflower

SusanSunflower

no, it was that the arsenic had been taken/administered over a long period of time ... Bates bought and delivered the arsenic to Vera as her request.  But there was no evidence that he then had anything to do with her or it.  (It was not found in her flour or sugar bins, for instance).  The halo and the fingernail discoloration were both evidence of prolonged exposure (which Bates was not there to do) ... it's a bit far fetched, but the working theory that freed Bates and settled the inquiry was that Crazy Vera poisoned herself to wickedly frame Bates as a final evil act. 

The "halo" is because with long term exsposure to arsenic, the breath become phosphorescent and "glows" ... 

Llywela

Llywela

(edited)
On 12/07/2017 at 6:33 PM, Dobian said:

I'm just watching this show for the first time on Amazon, on season 1.  Are the laws of entailment still the same today, or did that change?  Quite a confusing mess they have to deal with.

Hi, enjoy the show!

The entail law has changed, yes, since 1912 when the show begins - it was abolished by the Law of Property Act in 1925 (shortly after Downton Abbey comes to an end, in fact). I would offer you some links that are good for ironing out the confusion of the situation at Downton, but all the ones I can find are spoilery!

Edited by Llywela
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