S18.E16: Will Smith, Zayn Malik, Ryan Reynolds, Catherine Zeta Jones, Toby Jones, Laura Mvula

[Athena]

Graham is joined by Hollywood superstar Will Smith, starring in football drama Concussion, Zayn Malik talking about his own music, in his first appearance since leaving One Diection, Ryan Reynolds, reprising his superhero role in the new X-Men film Deadpool, and Catherine Zeta Jones and Toby Jones, co-starring in the hotly anticipated new film of Dad's Army. Plus music from Laura Mvula, who performs Overcome.

[dubbel zout]

Well, we know who's going to dominate the couch.

[attica]

"Reprising his superhero role?" Whu? He's not playing Green Lantern again; there's no reprise here. "Revisiting the superhero genre" might have been more accurate, promo monkeys! [/pedant]

[Athena]

"Reprising his superhero role?" Whu? He's not playing Green Lantern again; there's no reprise here. "Revisiting the superhero genre" might have been more accurate, promo monkeys! [/pedant]

 

Reynolds played Deadpool in the X-Men Origins: Wolverine movie but they've reworked the character a bit since that movie.

[attica]

Oh! I sit corrected.  Thanks, Athena. [/not up on x-men]

[dusang]

Well, we know who's going to dominate the couch.

 

Between Will and Ryan there might be a tussle.

[Kromm]

Zayn Malik... forever backing out of things.

 

Also, shut up, Will Smith. Just... always.

 

Nice non-answer when asked about your family position on the Oscars thing, Will. You said exactly nothing and got cheered for it by sheep in the audience.

 

Also, geez. I'm not downplaying the seriousness of the issue in the movie Will is in, but that music behind that scene was SO effing overdramatic.

 

Between Will and Ryan there might be a tussle.

Ryan Reynolds at least amuses me. Will Smith?  Well, he did when he was a teenager. Lately?  Not so much.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Kromm

[attica]

I didn't know that Will is an academy member. That certainly will make for some awkwardness.

 

I was idly thinking that CZJ was drunk on the couch (which isn't that big a deal, esp, on Graham's couch), but then I remembered that she has undergone some mental health treatment, and then I felt bad. Now I'm thinking maybe I'm overthinking.

 

I don't even want to imagine what people want poor Dobby to record on their phones. (Toby Jones was a better Truman Capote than Philip Seymour Hoffman, if you ask me. And Sandra Bullock was downright great as Harper Lee. That movie was a victim of bad timing.) 

 

I got the distinct impression that the Red Chair dude has told and retold that story many many times. I'd've rather heard some backstage-at-the-beeb gossip, you know?

[Kromm]

I didn't know that Will is an academy member. That certainly will make for some awkwardness.

Why wouldn't he be? Most successful actors and producers are. He fits both of those categories.

 

It is an old boys network in the sense that membership is only by sponsorship. But Smith is definitely an "old boy" whether he likes it or not. 

 

Here are the so-called rules: http://www.oscars.org/about/join-academy

Edited February 2, 2016 by Kromm

[dusang]

Why wouldn't he be? Most successful actors and producers are. He fits both of those categories.

 

It is an old boys network in the sense that membership is only by sponsorship. But Smith is definitely an "old boy" whether he likes it or not. 

 

Here are the so-called rules: http://www.oscars.org/about/join-academy

 

As someone who is now and always will be in denial about exactly how long ago 1992 really was, I just can't think of Will Smith as "old," in any context, if you you know what I mean.

 

The Oscars So White thing has been a growing problem for a couple years now and I think it is something that should be discussed and addressed.  As Will is in the rather awkward position of being the guy who was snubbed and then his wife essentially called for a boycott, it's a bit challenging for him to speak of it without sounding a bit petty but I think he did pretty well.

[Kromm]

Smith is annoying, but I have long thought Jada is his Yoko Ono (I'm convinced she's the one who got them roped into Scientology and also that the screwed up values of their kids are hers transplanted--and it's not a "blame the women" thing with me as much as just thinking she's bonkers).  I recognize that she essentially is the one who put him in a bad P.R. position on this too. It's not like it should be any kind of automatic assumption he should have been a nominee if there'd been more of a need for Academy members to nominate black actors. That assumption would be like pretending the entire casts of Straight Outta Compton and maybe even Chi-Raq don't exist and only Will's movie did last year. But now yes, he essentially has to sound like he's whining about his own lack of a nomination if he's not careful. 

 

Then again he's been nominated twice before. Most people would feel blessed in their career to have even that.

Jada herself, of course, would be lucky to be nominated as town Dog Catcher. That must burn in her guts too, but really she's a shitty actress and that must be a tough pill to swallow.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Kromm

[sugarbaker design]

I didn't know that Will is an academy member. That certainly will make for some awkwardness.

 

 

If one is nominated for an Academy Award, one gets automatic membership in the AMPAS.

[Kromm]

If one is nominated for an Academy Award, one gets automatic membership in the AMPAS.

Actually the bylaws only say you get automatic consideration (you don't have to be sponsored by two other members). They don't have to accept you.

 

That said, Will Smith is part of the machine, not some fringe person who could have been easily ignored. He was already a very big star when he was nominated so there was no way he wasn't becoming an Academy member.  And although I don't know if we can easily check this, I suspect he might have already been a member even before that.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Kromm

[Kromm]

The other thing is that sometimes a cause and how people react ignores reality in favor of outrage. The lists of new AMPAS memberships aren't easy to find, but here at least are some from the last few years:  

 

2013: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls053280505/

2012: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls009349957/

2011: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls009692288/

2010: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls050907348/

2009: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls055390322/

 

I wonder how that shit ton of Hispanics (2013 is particularly the "year of Hispanic new members, it seems) and Asians feel knowing they're not being regarded as properly "diverse" members. And yeah, plenty of black folks. A lot of white dudes too, it's true, but less overwhelmingly so than you'd think from all the Sturm und Drang, the reports about how universally lily white this process has been before it was "fixed" this year thanks to the brave Smiths and Spike Lee. Bullshit. Those lists look like they were ALREADY moving fast on more diverse membership and it just doesn't meet the narrative of people complaining to actually LOOK at those lists.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Kromm

[dubbel zout]

Smith's movie was Oscar bait that had bad timing. It was drowned out by other Oscar bait movies, like The Danish Girl, that happened to have a more buzzy topic. 

[dusang]

The other thing is that sometimes a cause and how people react ignores reality in favor of outrage. The lists of new AMPAS memberships aren't easy to find, but here at least are some from the last few years:  

 

2013: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls053280505/

2012: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls009349957/

2011: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls009692288/

2010: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls050907348/

2009: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls055390322/

 

I wonder how that shit ton of Hispanics (2013 is particularly the "year of Hispanic new members, it seems) and Asians feel knowing they're not being regarded as properly "diverse" members. And yeah, plenty of black folks. A lot of white dudes too, it's true, but less overwhelmingly so than you'd think from all the Sturm und Drang, the reports about how universally lily white this process has been before it was "fixed" this year thanks to the brave Smiths and Spike Lee. Bullshit. Those lists look like they were ALREADY moving fast on more diverse membership and it just doesn't meet the narrative of people complaining to actually LOOK at those lists.

 

In 2013 I counted 27 non-white people and not all of them were Hispanic.  Is less than 27 a "shit-ton" these days?  I take your point  -- in 2009 there were only 10 non-whites so 27 is clearly an improvement -- but the total voting membership of the Academy is nearly 7,000; there's still miles to go before we sleep, as it were.

 

A podcast I listen to, The Read, referred to Jada's commentary as "the right message, wrong messenger."

Edited February 2, 2016 by dusang

[Kromm]

In 2013 I counted 27 non-white people and not all of them were Hispanic.  Is less than 27 a "shit-ton" these days?  I take your point  -- in 2009 there were only 10 non-whites so 27 is clearly an improvement -- but the total voting membership of the Academy is nearly 7,000; there's still miles to go before we sleep, as it were.

 

A podcast I listen to, The Read, referred to Jada's commentary as "the right message, wrong messenger."

That's an elementally unfair measure--to compare the percentage of NEW inductees to a TOTAL membership created over the better part of a century. You're basically saying that an imbalance created over generations needs to be instantly numerically compensated for rather than them doing what they have been--dramatically increasing the number of non-White inductees being inducted even BEFORE Will and Jada Smith decided to go through a shadow play to act like they're the ones getting this done now.  And I think there's been an increase in female inductees too. I mean the Academy has always had women, but it really seems like that percentage has gone up too.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Kromm

[attica]

Why wouldn't he be?

 

Of course he would be; I'm just Herp, the Mayor of Derptopia.

[dusang]

That's an elementally unfair measure--to compare the percentage of NEW inductees to a TOTAL membership created over the better part of a century. You're basically saying that an imbalance created over generations needs to be instantly numerically compensated for rather than them doing what they have been--dramatically increasing the number of non-White inductees being inducted even BEFORE Will and Jada Smith decided to go through a shadow play to act like they're the ones getting this done now.  And I think there's been an increase in female inductees too. I mean the Academy has always had women, but it really seems like that percentage has gone up too.

 

I'm not comparing the number, I'm noting that even with 25% of new members being "diverse" the overall problem of representation within the organization is an ongoing issue that should be addressed.  And that 25% may be a "dramatic increase" it's still not representational of society or the industry.  So, although Jada and Spike may have ulterior motives, that doesn't mean that what they are saying isn't true.

[Kromm]

I'm not comparing the number, I'm noting that even with 25% of new members being "diverse" the overall problem of representation within the organization is an ongoing issue that should be addressed.  And that 25% may be a "dramatic increase" it's still not representational of society or the industry.  So, although Jada and Spike may have ulterior motives, that doesn't mean that what they are saying isn't true.

Where are you coming up with 25% with that level of certainty?  Take the 2013 list. Many of them don't even have pictures.

 

Also, we WERE at least initially speaking about actor inductions (not that there might not also be a problem with all of them). Not just because it's the visible face of the thing people have been focusing on, but also because the non-actor inductions ARE somewhat inherently limited by who's employed in those areas. We can't just assume, for example, that 13.2% (the believed national percentage of African-Americans vs. the entire population) of film editors are black, for example. We just don't have the data to know.  But the acting nominations is what's being dragged around and held up now, and in that 2013 list there are 22 actors, and 13 of 22 are something other than white. And just some extra data (even if people aren't talking about it) 12 of 22 are female. So both percentages seem a lot more equitable than the likes of The Smiths are implying. And remember that the actors are the ones who nominate for their own categories. Keep that in mind. The general membership only picks the winner FROM those nominations the actors provide.  So looking specifically AT the makeup of the actors being inducted is more than fair given that it's the nominations being complained about, and most specifically the most grief was given to no black actors being nominated.

 

And my point is NOT to argue that the problem is fixed. Just to say that the holier than thous coming along acting like diversity has totally been ignored by the Academy arguably have their own egos and self-glorification involved, if they haven't even bothered to look at the data of recent years to see what the Academy was clearly doing. Jada and Will Smith are not the saviors of Diversity of the Academy--someone was clearly already pushing on the Academy to that end already (and having some level of success).

Edited February 2, 2016 by Kromm

[dusang]

Where are you coming up with 25% with that level of certainty?  Take the 2013 list. Many of them don't even have pictures.

 

Also, we WERE at least initially speaking about actor inductions (not that there might not also be a problem with all of them). Not just because it's the visible face of the thing people have been focusing on, but also because the non-actor inductions ARE somewhat inherently limited by who's employed in those areas. We can't just assume, for example, that 13.2% (the believed national percentage of African-Americans vs. the entire population) of film editors are black, for example. We just don't have the data to know.

 

You're right, we may not have the data to know.  We just have the history of the United States of America to know that racism is a problem.  And the daily news to know that it continues to be a problem.  And logic to extrapolate that Hollywood has probably not solved the problem of racism.  But you're right, we don't have the numbers.  We should just be happy that a "shit-ton" of Hispanics have been added to the Academy membership and shut the fuck up about it.

[Kromm]

You're right, we may not have the data to know.  We just have the history of the United States of America to know that racism is a problem.  And the daily news to know that it continues to be a problem.  And logic to extrapolate that Hollywood has probably not solved the problem of racism.  But you're right, we don't have the numbers.  We should just be happy that a "shit-ton" of Hispanics have been added to the Academy membership and shut the fuck up about it.

No, and I think on some level you must know that's not what I said. 

 

I think the Academy is getting a raw deal though, because they'd already started to take action despite complaints acting like they were just bumps on logs ignoring diversity, and that people like the Smiths and Spike Lee are opportunists who have been part of the process all along and who are conveniently ignoring the reality of certain parts of the situation to position themselves as the heroes of the moment. 

[dusang]

No, and I think on some level you must know that's not what I said. 

 

I think the Academy is getting a raw deal though, because they'd already started to take action despite complaints acting like they were just bumps on logs ignoring diversity, and that people like the Smiths and Spike Lee are opportunists who have been part of the process all along and who are conveniently ignoring the reality of certain parts of the situation to position themselves as the heroes of the moment. 

 

Fair enough.  I think the Academy could have, and should have, done more, including the current proposition to end lifetime memberships, which is one of the key contributors to the hard skew to "old white man" in the voting body.  And, although Jada and Spike may not be the ideal spokespeople (nor a red-carpet boycott the most effective approach) the fact that someone is speaking loudly and spurring greater action and public discussion is not a bad thing.

[Kromm]

Fair enough.  I think the Academy could have, and should have, done more, including the current proposition to end lifetime memberships, which is one of the key contributors to the hard skew to "old white man" in the voting body.  And, although Jada and Spike may not be the ideal spokespeople (nor a red-carpet boycott the most effective approach) the fact that someone is speaking loudly and spurring greater action and public discussion is not a bad thing.

They should in no way do away with lifetime memberships. What they should do away with is lifetime voting rights. Also, I don't particularly like the direction they're going towards where it simply goes away in 10 years. The standard I think should be applied is how active their careers are, since this IS a professional organization. They should have to meet a standard of a certain number of paying (filmed) acting jobs within a certain period, or lose voting rights. It's a more fair standard, and yet still will do away with a lot of those oldsters who are hanging onto voting rights decades after they should (without it being specifically about either people's race or age). So lets say we talk about Michael Caine, for example. Well he's an old white guy. But he's an old white guy who continues to act in at least a few projects each year. No way his voting rights should be taken away, in my opinion. He's fulfilling his duties to his professional organization by actively DOING that job.

[peeayebee]

Also, geez. I'm not downplaying the seriousness of the issue in the movie Will is in, but that music behind that scene was SO effing overdramatic.

One of my pet peeves: intrusive music. 

 

I usually like Will Smith on Graham, but he bugged me here. I liked Ryan Reynolds, though. I'm not at all interested in Deadpool.

 

I've never heard of Dad's Army, but that movie looks great. So many wonderful actors in it. 

 

I didn't know Toby Jones was the voice of Dobby. Also, I didn't see him in his Capote movie, but I loved PSH in his. Jones probably resembles Capote physically more, but Hoffman was just so good, as usual.

[SmithW6079]

Well, we know who's going to dominate the couch.

I know! I wanted to tell him to shut up for horning in on Ryan's pie story.

[paramitch]

I enjoyed this episode, overall. I thought CZJ seemed fine, just rather subdued -- I didn't see any signs of "off" behavior -- to me, she came across as simply not being quite as outgoing as Smith or Reynolds (who I thought were genuinely fun and charming, but they'd be tough to top). I did get a kick out of her story about her husband thinking that she'd been speaking "that beautiful language" Welsh on the phone, when she'd been speaking English (in heavily accented Welsh) with her Mom. I also appreciate Jones having the courage to go public with her struggle with bipolar disorder, and regret that the downside is that people will be too often looking for the smallest signs of it in her behavior. 

 

I'm not a fan of Smith's personal choices (especially his and Jada's intense Scientology stances, which have resulted in some massively screwed-up and entitled kids), but he's just so personally charming that I always find him fun on Graham, and he seems to look forward to Graham's couch just as much as Graham enjoys having him there. I could seriously watch a whole episode of Will Smith, Graham, and the Red Chair. Smith obviously just LOVES the Red Chair, and it's very funny to me. (I always laugh at the memory of his 'DON'T YOU DARE! DON'T YOU DARE!' to Graham, who wanted to flip a storyteller on a previous show...)

 

Meanwhile, I loved Ryan Reynolds, who managed to come across as generous, self-effacing and hilarious (and it's tough to be all three things at once). I laughed out loud most at Ryan, and that surprised me. His movie roles before "Deadpool" seemed to actually require him to be smug and arrogant so I'm floored at how much this actually doesn't seem to be who Reynolds is. I never would have guessed.

 

I don't even want to imagine what people want poor Dobby to record on their phones. (Toby Jones was a better Truman Capote than Philip Seymour Hoffman, if you ask me. And Sandra Bullock was downright great as Harper Lee. That movie was a victim of bad timing.) 

 

I thought "Capote" was stunning (as was Hoffman), so I have to disagree, although I thought Jones did a great job in what was (I felt) a more lightweight film. I do agree that Bullock made a lovely Nell -- I loved her just as much as Catherine Keener's version in "Capote" as well.

 

I didn't know Toby Jones was the voice of Dobby. Also, I didn't see him in his Capote movie, but I loved PSH in his. Jones probably resembles Capote physically more, but Hoffman was just so good, as usual.

 

I didn't know Jones voiced Dobby either! That really surprised me -- I loved that, and he did a wonderful job with him. On "Capote," I thought the filmmakers, along with PSH, did a really terrific job of making Hoffman appear to be a shorter, smaller man throughout the film -- there was a lot of excellent forced perspective there. And Hoffman's performance in that is one of my all-time favorite film performances ever. He's just so restrained and unshowy, yet, it's all so brilliantly there. I loved it and was very moved.

 

I know! I wanted to tell him to shut up for horning in on Ryan's pie story.

 

I thought Smith was genuinely having a great time at the story, and that he was trying to be more 'funny/supportive' versus stealing the moment. Meanwhile, Reynolds is increasingly winning my absolute adoration -- I've never been a huge fan of him as a performer (his past characters were often very smug), but he really does seem to be a smart, humble, and incredibly witty person in real life. I also got a kick out of his 'Canadianisms' here too.

Edited February 22, 2016 by paramitch

[fastiller]

I'll join the chorus of those who are surprised at how amiable Reynolds came off.  He was totally game for the show.  Smith was also better than I'd expected.

 

Finally: Graham Norton seemed truly smitten with Laura Mvula; he was almost like a proud uncle.  And I can't say I blame him, she's got a lovely voice and from what I've seen/heard of her in interviews, she's still grounded.