All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[caracas1914]

Instead Murphy and Falchuk just keep getting more shows and more $$$$.  Why would they stop to consider they might not be the geniuses they think they are?

 

This so much.

 

I suspect also  that unless you were a cast member that blew smoke up their ass 24/7 and actually had questions concerning  how your character was portrayed;   you eventually got sidelined on the show also.  Somehow I don't think it's a coincidence that Matt, Chris, Dianna and Naya were all marginalized as the show went on.

Edited March 25, 2015 by caracas1914

[Ceeg]

 Instead Murphy and Falchuk just keep getting more shows and more $$$$.  Why would they stop to consider they might not be the geniuses they think they are?

 

Well, they do churn out hits. Those hits eventually dissolve into the worst kind of hot mess, but they make networks money.

 

I think the reason why their shows dissolve into hot messes is that Ryan and Brad have surrounded themselves with 'yes men' and they won't take any kind of criticism, constructive or otherwise. Not to mention all these awards that organizations keep throwing at Ryan for being such an innovative genius or whatever.

 

That's why I can never watch another RM show again, because I've seen the future and I know how it all ends.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Ceeg

[caracas1914]

I think of someone like David E. Kelly, who in his heyday was the creator/writer/producer of so many quality shows that maintained their high standard for more than a 13 episode swing.

 

It is possible, but you'd have to be an actual genius.

[dizzyizzy01]

This so much.

 

I suspect also  that unless you were a cast member that blew smoke up their ass 24/7 and actually had questions concerning  how your character was portrayed;   you eventually got sidelined on the show also.  Somehow I don't think it's a coincidence that Matt, Chris, Dianna and Naya were all marginalized as the show went on.

 

Except for Dianna and maybe Naya towards the end of S5 into S6, I don't think it was because they didn't suck up to RIB.  I think they just became creatively bankrupt on what to do with Mr. Schue, Kurt, and even Santana.  I mean Rachel was sidelined for the vast majority of S4, and obviously Lea and Ryan get along.

[caracas1914]

I always thought that Lea was a bit  different becasue she got private assurances from Ryan that she was safe, IIRC they bought the rights of  "Funny Girl" at the time of Season 4 and let Lea know it.  And even in S4, in the minor narrative  Rachel still  had a SL throughout the season, unlike Kurt and Santana who got squat.

Edited March 25, 2015 by caracas1914

[Ceeg]

Santana really never got her own storyline in New York, unless you count that one episode with 2 scenes where she got a girlfriend (who we never really saw much of again) or the 2 scenes where she helps find people for the band. Her biggest plots in the New York narrative were finding out that Brody was a prostitute and auditioning to be Rachel's understudy. Both plots that centered on Rachel. Which is fine, I know that Santana is a supporting character who's there to support the main character. But it's kind of a tough pill to swallow when you have Sam leaving Brittany a food trail and Blam running around in capes and Becky bringing a gun to school. 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Ceeg

[dizzyizzy01]

I always thought that Lea was a bit  different becasue she got private assurances from Ryan that she was safe, IIRC they bought the rights of  "Funny Girl" at the time of Season 4 and let Lea know it.  And even in S4, in the minor narrative  Rachel still  had a SL throughout the season, unlike Kurt and Santana who got squat.

Again though, I think this is creatively they didn't know what to do with Kurt and Santana.  That's them being crappy writers.  People seem to think Chris/Ryan don't get along for some reason and that's not true.

[shoregirl]

I thought the Brody is a prostitute was terrible and not about Rachel really. It was about Finchel and Santanas need to be right. I hated that instead of going to Rachel with her evidence (even if she wouldn't let it go after Rachel asked her to) she called Finn because Rachel can't make a informed decision when she has all the facts I guess. The stay ambush and the stay away from my future wife were disturbing. It was sexist and terrible.

Edited March 25, 2015 by shoregirl

[caracas1914]

People seem to think Chris/Ryan don't get along for some reason and that's not true.

 

Maybe a better way of putting it is that Ryan was no longer invested  in promoting /writing for Kurt as a character.  Because I would argue that far less developed characters , such as Blane, Sam and even someone like Becky,  Ryan and company didn't stop  trying to find Storylines for them throughout.    Ditto Santana as far as developed characters who got squat.

Edited March 25, 2015 by caracas1914

[spiritof76]

Well I'm not sure how true this is since Ryan is the one who said it, but I remember around the time, "The First Time" episode was done, Ryan said there had been a lot of discussion about whether Rachel should lose her virginity to Finn or not. He says, he was of the mind to let her go off to NY and lose it there (with someone else I guess). But, according to Ryan it was the women in the writers room who made the argument that "Finn deserved it". I wish I could find the article where he said, but I remember reading it and being so skeeved out by it. Now it is Ryan and he could just throwing those female writers under the bus, but there is something about that I am inclined to believe. I wonder of that was the same thought process behind Emma losing her virginity to Will at the end of Season 3, because he deserved it for winning Nationals? Ugh, this show had such a messed up view of female sexuality. My guess is the only reason they let Amber step in and suggest that Mercedes not lose her virginity to Sam, is because they didn't really care about Mercedes love life in the first place. I'm glad she did, because I actually thought that story was handled well and sensitively (that Rachel/Mercedes talk is still one of my favorites).

 

I guess my point is, like others have said, just having women, minorities, etc behind the scenes, is a good start for sure but it may not always guarantee success. 

[dizzyizzy01]

Maybe a better way of putting it is that Ryan was no longer invested  in promoting /writing for Kurt as a character.  Because I would argue that far less developed characters , such as Blane, Sam and even someone like Becky,  Ryan and company didn't stop  trying to find Storylines for them throughout.    Ditto Santana as far as developed characters who got squat.

Yea I agree.  Ryan lost interest in the characters, never really cared about the NY narrative, etc., but I don't think it had anything to do with them not "blowing smoke up his ass" though.

 

I just don't think there is really evidence that Ryan purposefully marginalized Chris/Matt or even Dianna on the show because of some perceived disagreement between the actors/creative team.  I  mean they let Matt direct an episode, and Chris write an episode.  They wouldn't do that if they were actually upset with them them.  With Dianna, I think she wanted off the show and didn't care for her character, but Dianna's role wasn't diminished until she left.  The writing for her character was crap, but that's pretty normal for the show in general.  After Dianna, left I think Ryan made petty meta jokes that he probably thinks are clever but actually come off in poor taste.  I think that's kind of a different argument though.  The Naya being written off in S5 was weird though.  I think that one had more going on behind the scenes than the others.

Edited March 25, 2015 by dizzyizzy01

[phoenixrising]

What I took by the female writer saying Rachel should lose it to Finn was that she doesn't have to stay a virgin in high school. Now, pity sex was a bad way to go (as was the Emma thing ugh).

Glee in general is weird about virginity, like how Santana allegedly meant something to Finn because he lost it to her, even though it meant nothing. What the hell?

[camussie]

Yep.  Glee was just awful about virginity in general and that goes for straight guys (Finn & Artie, well how Brittany was written in regards to Artie), straight girls (Rachel, Emma, and Quinn), and gay men (Kurt).  The only virginity storyline they handled well was Mercedes.  

[caracas1914]

The only ship that had a non dramatic " first time" was TIKE,,( I'm assuming my abs God Mike was a virgin just because).

Of course typically Sam had random fucking with older horny lady in his strip club days for his " first time".

Edited March 25, 2015 by caracas1914

[SNeaker]

We don't know how either Puck or Santana lost their virginities. Or Mercedes. (Unless there was something about Mercedes in the finale that I didn't hear about.)

Edited March 25, 2015 by SNeaker

[caracas1914]

Well for lack of a better word, Puck and Santana were not presented as "inexperienced" per Season 1.

Edited March 26, 2015 by caracas1914

[spiritof76]

 

Or Mercedes. (Unless there was something about Mercedes in the finale that I didn't hear about.)

Well unless she changed her mind, and that is always possible, I'm assuming she hadn't yet. The whole issue with Sam was that she wanted to wait until she was married and based on the finale Mercedes wasn't married or even dating anyone. All we know about her is that Sam keeps texting her even though he has a girlfriend. Like I said she could have changed her mind, lots of people do, but last we left her that was her stance.

 

 

The only ship that had a non dramatic " first time" was TIKE,,( I'm assuming my abs God Mike was a virgin just because).

I always liked how Tina described her first time with Mike. It was very sweet and mature. Not a lot of angst, etc. It's not always the biggest deal ever or totally traumatic/dramatic for people. Of course then they had Tina go crazy later on, so the RIB giveth and RIB taketh away.

[ladybug]

I actually thought Burt accepting Kurt for who he was , despite his own bias and background, was the most  important "lecture" the show ever gave.  Burt was far from perfect, and he gave bad advice as often as he gave good, but the underlying message of common sense acceptance and love was there in the Burt/Kurt scenes.  That is why even now when the show winded down so many go back to their scenes as far as the genuine  emotional takeaway from Glee.

 

Along with the Karofsky bullying/attempted suicide arc, I always thought that the Burt & Kurt relationship was the best thing the show ever did. This might be because the writers had first hand experience with the issues at hand (I read one interview with RM that the Karofsky character was actually based on someone he knew of IRL) but also because, IMVHO, Mike O'Malley, Chris and Max were among the strongest actors on the show so they had the chops to carry those storylines.

 

 When I think of how well they handled those storylines, it makes it more disappointing with how they handled other storylines/characters. Especially when they turned the show into a glorified After School Special (Becky brings a gun to school!). 

 

I realize the story wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but re-watching the Karofsky storyline-especially the scene with Kurt in the hospital-it still drew me in & still had an emotional resonance with me. It was my favorite story arc of the entire series. I only wished that could have brought the same nuance and complexity they brought to that story arc to every "important issue" storyline on Glee.

[tom87]

Well I'm not sure how true this is since Ryan is the one who said it, but I remember around the time, "The First Time" episode was done, Ryan said there had been a lot of discussion about whether Rachel should lose her virginity to Finn or not. He says, he was of the mind to let her go off to NY and lose it there (with someone else I guess). But, according to Ryan it was the women in the writers room who made the argument that "Finn deserved it". I wish I could find the article where he said, but I remember reading it and being so skeeved out by it. Now it is Ryan and he could just throwing those female writers under the bus, but there is something about that I am inclined to believe. I wonder of that was the same thought process behind Emma losing her virginity to Will at the end of Season 3, because he deserved it for winning Nationals? Ugh, this show had such a messed up view of female sexuality. My guess is the only reason they let Amber step in and suggest that Mercedes not lose her virginity to Sam, is because they didn't really care about Mercedes love life in the first place. I'm glad she did, because I actually thought that story was handled well and sensitively (that Rachel/Mercedes talk is still one of my favorites).

 

I guess my point is, like others have said, just having women, minorities, etc behind the scenes, is a good start for sure but it may not always guarantee success. 

 

Originally, when there was talk this past summer of a Glee spin-off, the thought was that Rachel would lose her virginity after moving to New York. Says Murphy, “Some of the women in the [writer’s] room thought it was crazy and thought we should really give that moment this year to Finn.”

Ryan Murphy

http://www.ew.com/article/2011/11/08/glee-ryan-murphy-the-first-time-exclusive

[shoregirl]

Give that moment to Finn? What the fuck? For the record I have no issue with her losing her virginity to Finn. I'd rather it been because they loved each other and not because Finn felt bad about himself.

[caracas1914]

Anyone believes Ryan that's EXACTLY what the women writers said?

We are talking taking RM at face value.

The Madoff of BTS full disclosure .

That Ryan.

Edited March 26, 2015 by caracas1914

[AndySmith]

but re-watching the Karofsky storyline-especially the scene with Kurt in the hospital-it still drew me in & still had an emotional resonance with me.

 

But again, like so many things, it was a great build up, horrible/non-existant follow through (I can only imagine if RM's sex life mirrors how he runs a show).

 

Kurt: "Don't worry Dave. It will get better. I'm here for you. You have friends and people who care about you and support you. Well, actually, I'm going to forget about you by the end of this episode. *Pause* Um, who are you, and what am I doing in this hospital?" <End scene>

[tom87]

Anyone believes Ryan that's EXACTLY what the women writers said?

We are talking taking RM at face value.

The Madoff of BTS full disclosure .

That Ryan.

 

Probably was .... Some of the women in the [writer’s] room thought it was crazy and thought we should really DO that moment this year WITH  Finn.”

[caracas1914]

Yup, they probably thought there's no reason to keep her a virgin, and she was in a committed relationship with Finn so they reasoned  that was more credible for a teenage girl these days. 

[tab19]

Originally, when there was talk this past summer of a Glee spin-off, the thought was that Rachel would lose her virginity after moving to New York. Says Murphy, “Some of the women in the [writer’s] room thought it was crazy and thought we should really give that moment this year to Finn.”

Ryan Murphy

http://www.ew.com/article/2011/11/08/glee-ryan-murphy-the-first-time-exclusive

Amazing how interpretations can differ, and of course we'll probably never really know.  "Rachel seems like she would want to consummate her relationship with Finn, whom she considered the love of her life and whom she wanted to marry" is so much more palatable than "Finn was having a bad day and got Rachel's virginity to make him feel better."  I REALLY hope the women writers were arguing the former, and then the idiots in charge turned the actual script into what we saw.

[camussie]

While I hated how it was tied to Finn being told he had no future as a football player I always thought Rachel showed up to Finn's house that night, before she found out what Cooter said, wanting to consummate their relationship.  In that sense I don;t think her decision to sleep with him was predicated on him having his football dreams dashed.  Still it was awful that they tied to the two together.  

[camussie]

Or how about when one character would start singing a song in the choir room and then 2 or 3 other characters would jump up and just instinctively know the choreography the singer would be following?

 

This and people being able to jump right in and sing an alternate arrangement never bothered me because that goes along with the suspension of belief that comes with a musical.  Stuff like them pulling together last minute set lists and winning because they had more "heart" than groups who put in months of practice annoyed me. 

 

Same with the contention that ND would have made it into the top 10 or heck maybe won if Finn/Rachel hadn't kissed on that stage.  According to show canon them not having a set list until the late in the evening before and an absent choir director had nothing to do with it.

 

And what really annoys me is when the show doesn't follow its own internal logic.  Sam not needing a degree to be the full time paid director of New Directions is just the latest example.  In season 4, according to the show's own logic, having a career as a choir director required a degree and that logic went out the window with Sam's ending.  

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[Myrna123]

I suppose Glee should get credit for being unintentionally awful rather than purposefully awful.  I think the typical episode came about this way: 

   1.  Give episode a title.

   2.  Decide what the last scene of the episode will be taking great care to make sure it lines up with title in #1

   3.  Check with Fox to see exactly how long episode will be

   4.  Back into last scene

   5.  Try to maintain humility waiting for accolades and awards to roll in.

[caracas1914]

And what really annoys me is when the show doesn't follow its own internal logic.

 

That's where they lost their GA.   People are willing to suspend belief up to a certain point, but Glee would contradict themselves within an episode, hell within five or ten minutes and the audience was left scratching their heads.

 

There was no rhyme or reason to anything anyone did or said on the show.  .  It was just so disposable that people threw up their hands and said "why bother?"

 

it reminds me back in school when you had to write a 1000 word essay and if you had no true inkling you padded and literally just  made sure there were 1000 words on the page.  Glee writers seem to be intent on filling 42 minutes of screen time and that was it. 

Edited March 26, 2015 by caracas1914

[tab19]

Not sure if I have posted this before on this thread or another one, but...this scene will always be a prime example of how misogynistic and hypocritical the writing was, and just how much Will sucked as a teacher and person.

 

That gifset though, is awesome for its perfect parallels.  I mean, the same reaction (no I won't take my clothes off) gets two completely different responses ("Good for you" vs. "You're suspended").  Truthfully, I don't particularly fault WILL for this - for me, this was just symptomatic of the way Glee treated women in general, and Will, in this case, was just the vehicle.  Just like Finn just happens to be in the good in this particular instance doesn't hide the fact that plenty of times he was (again, because of the awful writing) doing something incredibly problematic.  So my blame falls on the writers.

 

I would LOVE for someone to show something like this to the writers, to see if THEY can explain it.

[Sara2009]

I think Will was suspending Marley for sabotaging the assignment and furthering her own agenda. I don't think he cared what her particular outfit was. The problem is that because this is " Glee," it all came off looking problematic.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Sara2009

[tab19]

To be fair, I think Will was suspending Marley for sabotaging the assignment and furthering her own agenda. I don't think he cared what her particular outfit was. The problem is that because this is " Glee," it all came off looking worse than intended.

I'm asking because I legitimately don't know this (didn't watch much of the Season 4/5 Lima stuff):  But how does her outfit sabotage the performance?  

[Ceeg]

The thing about Will, though, is that he was so inconsistent in what he deemed bad enough to be punished for and what he let slide.

[Sara2009]

I'm asking because I legitimately don't know this (didn't watch much of the Season 4/5 Lima stuff): But how does her outfit sabotage the performance?

Because she came in dressed as Katy Perry. She was in the group doing Lady Gaga. Her whole team was irritated with her.

The thing about Will, though, is that he was so inconsistent in what he deemed bad enough to be punished for and what he let slide.

Oh I definitely agree. My point was that I think the writers were going for " Will suspends Marley for sabotaging the assignemt" not " Will suspends Marley for refusing to wear a skimpy outfit." Things just always gets muddled on this show. Edited March 26, 2015 by Sara2009

[Ceeg]

Oh, I wasn't even referring to just the Marley situation. He did it repeatedly over the years. 

[jaytee1812]

Oh I definitely agree. My point was that I think the writers were going for " Will suspends Marley for sabotaging the assignemt" not " Will suspends Marley for refusing to wear a skimpy outfit." Things just always gets muddled on this show.

 

Even then, if it was one of the guys we would've had an episode about making them comfortable with their Gaga side (Theatricality!) 

[Sara2009]

Oh, I wasn't even referring to just the Marley situation. He did it repeatedly over the years.

I agree with that too. I was just applying if to that particular situation.

Even then, if it was one of the guys we would've had an episode about making them comfortable with their Gaga side (Theatricality!)

True. But that's on the writers not the characters in the narrative.

[jaytee1812]

Can I ask a question about the newbies. Is it just me or are the more convincing underdogs? There are no 'popular kids', they're all either bullied or abused, I even argue there's insistences of them being bullied in glee club too.*

 

*I argue that happened to originals too, but apart from Tina not all three. 

[camussie]

I thought Roderick was the most convincing case for an underdog the show ever had.  The rest were on par with the originals.  

[Ceeg]

Being an underdog doesn't necessarily mean being an unpopular loser. The first three seasons of Glee showed that. Each of the popular kids had their own issues too that Glee helped them deal with. Because of various differences and various ways each of the original 12 kids felt like an underdog, they were able to all come together despite all that, and just perform.

[AndySmith]

Regardless of her agenda...having a teenage girl express body issues, and having the men pretty much tell her to suck it up and get over it or be suspended, is kind of sucky.

 

But that's on the writers not the characters in the narrative

 

Nah, it's on the character too...

Edited March 26, 2015 by AndySmith

[jaytee1812]

I thought Roderick was the most convincing case for an underdog the show ever had.  The rest were on par with the originals.  

 

Why? He got everything he wanted handed to him on a plate. He had to fight for nothing. 

[camussie]

He came into Glee a complete underdog.  He was friendless, overweight and subject to ridicule because of that, and extremely shy. That is why being in Glee was a game changer for him - he went from being a complete underdog to being someone who had friends and wasn't afraid of his shadow.

 

Regardless of her agenda...having a teenage girl express body issues, and having the men pretty much tell her to suck it up and get over it or be suspended, is kind of sucky.

 

 

That is where I came down when the episode aired.  I get Will was frustrated she didn't do the assignment but he should have shut Sam and the others down when they were snarking art Marley for not wearing the bikini.  He should have told them flat out they were wrong for insisting she wear the bikini in the first place, then told Marley it was her right to not want to wear that costume but rather than showing up in something different she should have come to him.  

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[ComfySweater]

I thought Roderick was the most convincing case for an underdog the show ever had.  The rest were on par with the originals.  

Really? Kurt was tossed in literal dumpsters often enough he was resigned to the inevitability of it. Artie got locked in a port-o-potty and rolled down a hill. Roderick got nothing like any of that. He seemed nice enough and to fit the underdog mold, but hardly had anything going on to win him worst high school experiences on the show show contests.

[Lady Calypso]

Why? He got everything he wanted handed to him on a plate. He had to fight for nothing. 

 

Well, I think we could say the same for almost everyone else, even the newbies 1.0. I do think Roderick is an underdog, just like most of the Glee kids were. The point of being an underdog on this show is not completely fitting in, or fitting the stereotype you're supposed to, and coming in on your own and finding yourself through Glee. That's what Roderick did, just like Quinn did and Rachel did and Tina did and even Kitty and Marley did. 

 

Really? Kurt was tossed in literal dumpsters often enough he was resigned to the inevitability of it. Artie got locked in a port-o-potty and rolled down a hill. Roderick got nothing like any of that. He seemed nice enough and to fit the underdog mold, but hardly had anything going on to win him worst high school experiences on the show show contests.

 

 

Not necessarily. Although we didn't get shown much before we saw him getting asked to join Glee, we did see his first scene with the bullies putting a sign 'wide load' on his back and laughing, along with a voiceover talking about how he was friendless. So it wasn't like they showed him to be just a normal guy; he was bullied to a certain extent. Even Mercedes, in the Pilot (and in the last episode) had her voiceover, talking about how she wasn't really bullied BUT she was invisible. 

 

Although....I actually overall agree with your point that he doesn't fit the underdog category the best, but I did just want to point this out.

[camussie]

From what i could tell Roderick didn't have daddy buying him $80,000 cars like Kurt did nor did he have any friends like Artie did with Tina.  To me he seemed completely alone. On top of that he got bullied for his weight.  

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

He came into Glee a complete underdog.  He was friendless, overweight and subject to ridicule because of that, and extremely shy. That is why being in Glee was a game changer for him - he went from being a complete underdog to being someone who had friends and wasn't afraid of his shadow.

 

Oh god, he's Rachel! 

 

Thing is some stay an underdog in glee. He wasn't one of them. 

[camussie]

I don't think he was Rachel at all.  Unlike Rachel he didn't come in thinking he deserved every solo.  He also saw room for improvement in his skills and gladly sought out feedback - something Rachel rarely embraced.  

 

As for the other newbies I don't think any of them stayed an underdog either.  Jane was lead in 2-3 songs.  Same with Mason, Spencer, and Kitty.  The only who really didn't lead a song was Madison.

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[SNeaker]

The characters who started off as popular kids definitely had it easier in many many ways than the original underdogs. But I thought the point of the show -- and the point of integrating the jocks/cheerleaders, as opposed to keeping them as the villains -- was that the kids who on the surface seem popular can also be extremely unhappy and feel like outcasts (lonely in a crowd) for one reason or another and many can be hiding their true selves and putting on a show in order to BE popular due to fear that they won't be accepted if they show the world who they truly are.

Edited March 26, 2015 by SNeaker

[Myrna123]

"Underdog" was a status only when it was convenient to Glee to use it by the time the new new newbies came along.  Most of the originals were all grappling with something that they had to overcome--either the pressures of popularity, an undefined future, a teen pregnancy, or being bullied, friendless nerds.  The entire premise of the show was that Glee was going to help them deal with the issues they faced.  To that extent, their issues were set up much more clearly and, at least in the first season(ish) were something of a through-line for the show.

 

The new newbs only had, what, 15 minutes at the most of screen time, so I don't think there was anything much to glean about them one way or another.