Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[blixie]

 

So I'm gonna have to go with Marg as the prophesized YMBQ and its almost fitting in a way.

 

Right? I mean she's been a queen THREE times and during that time Cersei's life has gone to shit, Jamie "abandoned" her, Myrcella is sent away and then maimed, Joffrey and Tywin are murdered, she becomes a bloated drunk, and she has to endure the walk of Shame, and trial at the hands of the Faith. 

 

And it's the  kind of thing that I can't see the text in book or on tv ever confirming. Bottom line prophecies are stupid, and you can read anything you want into them. Sansa is NOT a Queen and I don't anticipate her becoming one, but I also could give two shits about the prophecy beyond the way it undoes Cersei mentally.

[Avaleigh]

The biggest obstacles to Sansa as YMBQ are that, first she needs to wed the king (since she is not already a crown princess by birth) and second that Cersei must survive long enough for Queen Sansa to return to KL and cast her down.

Jon is basically the only game left in town when it comes to a legit king (Tommen has to die for the prophecy to work and every other male candidate on the show is off the table), so for Sansa = YMBQ to work she'd have to marry her cousin (whom she had believed was her half-brother) so as to be queen.

Different people give different odds on that, but since people marrying for romantic love has been consistently shown to end badly, I wouldn't rule out a political marriage between them so its at least "plausible" at this stage.

Where I think Sansa as YMBQ falls apart though is in Cersei surviving long enough for Sansa to come into power and cast her down. Even if she were to be Jon's queen, I highly doubt Jon will be claiming the throne prior to the defeat of the Walkers and narratively speaking that's probably one of the last things the series will resolve (my bet would be Ep9 of the final season with Ep10 as the post climax wrap-up) and Cersei's story will almost certainly have been resolved by then.

So I'm gonna have to go with Marg as the prophesized YMBQ and its almost fitting in a way. Not all prophecies are earth-shattering. That Cersei's rise and fall are almost completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things I think just underlines how petty her life was perfectly.

It'd almost be like Lindsey on Angel complaining that it supposed to be Angel who killed him and not one of Angel's sidekicks. In his head he was SO important that only the prophesized champion was worthy of defeating him... but in reality he was nothing more than a distraction from the main event and not even worth the main hero's time to dispatch.

I think that end would fit Cersei perfectly.

Margaery being the YMB(Q) would mean that Cersei was right though and what are the chances of that happening? If I'm convinced of anything it's that she's misread the prophecy in every way save that her children are going to die. 

Right? I mean she's been a queen THREE times and during that time Cersei's life has gone to shit, Jamie "abandoned" her, Myrcella is sent away and then maimed, Joffrey and Tywin are murdered, she becomes a bloated drunk, and she has to endure the walk of Shame, and trial at the hands of the Faith. 

 

And it's the  kind of thing that I can't see the text in book or on tv ever confirming. Bottom line prophecies are stupid, and you can read anything you want into them. Sansa is NOT a Queen and I don't anticipate her becoming one, but I also could give two shits about the prophecy beyond the way it undoes Cersei mentally.

The only reason I give this stupid prophecy the time of day is because they bothered to include it in the show and in flashback form no less. To me that means it's happening. 

 

“Gold will be their crowns, and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the younger brother will wrap his hands…” Who can the younger brother be, other than the younger brother among those three for whom their crowns and shrouds will be gold? Heck, they’ve already set up Cersei as being willing to poison Tommen to spare him pain, and liking to hang out in crypts with her dead, uncremated relatives. Maybe that’s the thing she does and shouldn’t have, because it gives the Others another body to kill her with.

Why not say "the younger son" if it's supposed to be in relation to Cersei?

 

I'm not against Tommen getting a wighthood, in many ways I think it makes sense, but I don't think it's all that cut and dried when I read the prophecy quote. If it is meant to be Cersei's youngest son then there are better ways of describing that than the little brother as if Cersei has ever thought of him in relation to herself that way. 

Edited July 15, 2015 by Avaleigh

[BlackberryJam]

It's "ANOTHER, younger and more beautiful." The QUEEN part is interpretation. So not being an actual queen is not a barrier to the prophecy.

I've always held that the person who takes all from Cersei before she dies is a combination of Sansa, Dany, Margaery, Arianne and Brienne. Margaery and Sansa take her sons, Arianne takes her daughter, Dany takes her power and Brienne takes Jaime.

But yeah, the prophecy kind of sucks.

[Avaleigh]

If it's literally meant to be a combination of people then Maggy ought to have said 'and then there will come others, younger and more beautiful'. 

 

I really do hate this stupid prophecy. ;-p

Edited July 15, 2015 by Avaleigh

[BlackberryJam]

See what happens when a writer decides he's made some mistakes and decides to retcon?

[DigitalCount]

Why not say "the younger son" if it's supposed to be in relation to Cersei?

I'm not against Tommen getting a wighthood, in many ways I think it makes sense, but I don't think it's all that cut and dried when I read the prophecy quote. If it is meant to be Cersei's youngest son then there are better ways of describing that than the little brother as if Cersei has ever thought of him in relation to herself that way.

Because it's not actually in relation to Cersei. Maggy starts by telling Cersei that she'll have three kids. Everything she says thereafter is about the kids. Contrast "your tears" with "the valonqar." When Maggy wants to communicate something of Cersei's, she explicitly uses a 2nd person pronoun.

Cersei's tears.

Cersei being drowned.

Cersei's throat.

Cersei losing her life.

Everything else is about the kids. Of the three children Tommen is the younger brother. Saying "younger son" would be redundant. We don't need to have further clarification that the crowns and shrouds are theirs; it's the same with the valonqar. They will rule, die, and then after that, the younger brother among them will kill her. It's worth noting that "the" is a definite article, and while Cersei has two brothers, only Tommen can be considered the younger brother in his trio.

[SeanC]

If it's literally meant to be a combination of people then Maggy ought to have said 'and then there will come others, younger and more beautiful'. 

Maggy says "another".  It's meant to be one person, and I expect it's Dany (which many people object to as being too predictable, but GRRM's stories are not driven primarily by trying to catch the audience off-balance).

[SeanC]

The tragedy is in Cersei’s demise at the hands of her beloved son. Respectfully, I disagree with the premise that the prophecy was given in order for her to avert it, or to have made her own bed in a sense. I refer to Macbeth, where he gets told of his future and supposed immortality because his end comes only after some impossible events occur. I don’t think Shakespeare intended for Macbeth to have somehow foreseen a forest besieging his castle, or to know that one of the spirits was going to use the most weaselly definition of the word “born.”

On the other hand, let’s say Jaime kills Cersei. Chain of hands, golden hand shaped in a gripping fashion, whatever. Why did Maggy choose to reveal this? Cersei asks a pretty straightforward question, despite the fact that she has just heard some weird stuff about how she’s going to lose everything to the new young hotness. First of all, on what planet is “your twin brother will kill you” a viable answer to “will I have kids”? I’ve heard it put forth that Maggy’s intent is to shake Cersei and hurt her with the answers, but I don’t see how this is even an answer to the question. I think this is important for the main reason that Maggy explicitly limited Cersei to three questions, which is what I was getting at with the “genie” comment earlier. It makes no sense to wish for fame, fortune and a hot spouse, only for the genie to turn around and also throw in world peace despite you not having wished for that, AFTER the genie has said you only get three wishes. It’s extra information not at all linked to the question asked. If Maggy wanted to hurt her, why not say that the king would be an abusive boor? It would have fit in with the answer to her first question.

Furthermore, and this is the biggie for me, it’s so easy to tie Jaime in. Cersei asks about her children. Who’s the father of her children? JAIME. Why would his relationship with her be mentioned as being her younger brother when the superior, more dramatic link is the fact that he’s her lover and the father of those same kids? If Maggy had said “the father” instead of “the younger brother” it could have been comedy gold. Cersei would have to wonder if she was going to get Castamere’d, or if one of the actual Seven was going to descend from the sky with the express purpose of choking her out. And hey, it would have actually tied into the question she asked. If she says it in Valyrian Cersei still needs to find out what it means. She might even think herself in the clear when Tywin died.

The "no man of woman born", etc. are secondary prophecies in Macbeth.  The key one, the one that incites the plot, is simply the witches telling Macbeth he will be king (and that Banquo will found a line of kings), which is what prompts him to murder Duncan.  Moreover, the secondary prophecies (as well as some of the phrasings in the initial one) are the witches being malicious jerks.

 

Which feeds into your second issue.  Cersei barges into Maggy's tent and kicks her awake.  She's pointedly annoyed with her.  You're correct that there are any number of other ways she could have phrased it to mess with Cersei, but that doesn't mean using the "little brother" phrasing is somehow inexplicable (depending on how her prophesying works, she may even be deliberately willing Cersei to misinterpret it).

[Skeeter22]

Maggy says "another".  It's meant to be one person, and I expect it's Dany (which many people object to as being too predictable, but GRRM's stories are not driven primarily by trying to catch the audience off-balance).

I don't think the problem is that Dany is too predictable. It's that she and Cersei have no history together and Dany has had no connection to the losses Cersei has already suffered. I think Marg and Sansa are better candidates, but I won't be shocked if GRRM goes with Dany.

We know Cersei is going down, but when will it happen? How long will GRRM and D&D drag this out? I won't be surprised if she dies in the book timeline before she does in the show.

[Avaleigh]

Furthermore, and this is the biggie for me, it’s so easy to tie Jaime in. Cersei asks about her children. Who’s the father of her children? JAIME. Why would his relationship with her be mentioned as being her younger brother when the superior, more dramatic link is the fact that he’s her lover and the father of those same kids? If Maggy had said “the father” instead of “the younger brother” it could have been comedy gold. Cersei would have to wonder if she was going to get Castamere’d, or if one of the actual Seven was going to descend from the sky with the express purpose of choking her out. And hey, it would have actually tied into the question she asked. If she says it in Valyrian Cersei still needs to find out what it means. She might even think herself in the clear when Tywin died.

 

 

DigitalCount, I don't know how I missed this part of your post but I feel like the word being "the father" would have been kind of genius. Oh well. The bit in bold made me LOL because I can totally see her crazy mind going there not to mention being arrogant enough to think that if any 'father' is going bother to deal with her that she's just special enough for it to be that Father. 

[SeanC]

I won't be surprised if she dies in the book timeline before she does in the show.

Yeah, I tend to think D&D will try to keep her around as long as possible.

[Avaleigh]

I think she'll stick around until the seventh book. I think most of the bigs on the show are going to stay until the seventh/eighth season. 

 

My guesses on next season's death pool is something like this. 

 

Ramsay

Walda

Roose

Walder

Female Lannister

Trystane

Ellaria

Jorah

Daario

Dickon (perhaps Sam's entire family save Randyll)

Loras

Margaery

Pycelle

Kevan

Missandei 

 

I'm on the fence about losing Roose and possibly Dickon but the others seem very likely to happen IMO. Daario--if he doesn't get greyscale then I don't understand the point in introducing it with Jorah. This is also my reasoning for why I think Missandei is on the way out. I also sort of see Dany traveling to Westeros with only Tyrion and possibly Grey Worm as the faces that we recognize as being part of her inner circle. I see isolation being something that comes up again and again with Dany. She needs to lose some of her group before she goes over and I think that Daario, Jorah, and Missandei make the most sense especially since Grey Worm already had his near death. Have him feel wrecked over Missandei and have him deal with the frustration of not being able to use his skills to fight an illness. I feel like there has to be some sort of pay off for their relationship and I think her death would be pretty moving especially since they already set up how horrified he'd be if he were to never see her again. 

[MadMouse]

Isn't it a pretty big assumption that what Cersei holds most dear is her children? After reading her chapters I have no doubt she loves them in her own twisted extension of herself way like she does Jaime. But she's such a narcissist that I can't see her caring about anything more than herself.

[benteen]

Isn't it a pretty big assumption that what Cersei holds most dear is her children? After reading her chapters I have no doubt she loves them in her own twisted extension of herself way like she does Jaime. But she's such a narcissist that I can't see her caring about anything more than herself.

 

Yes but D&D think Cersei is a loving mother and has been portrayed as such.

[Audreythe2nd]

Yes but D&D think Cersei is a loving mother and has been portrayed as such.

 

No, she's an obsessed mother. Lena Headey does play up Cersei's motherly qualities for sure, but I've always gotten the slightest whiff of, I don't know, desperation or something to her motherly pronouncements that are just slightly out of line with how a normal mother might react. I mean, we can understand her need to keep her children safe, her grief at Joffrey's death, her worry about Myrcella, but something about her mothering has seemed slightly over the top, in such a way that I've personally never thought, "oh look, Cersei... just a damn fine relatable worried mother." Then the prophecy made that desperation totally clear - it links these so called motherly actions back to a personal fear, and paranoia of her own downfall, which she then precipitates by setting her sights on Margaery the YMBQ (in her eyes). Anyway, I've never had a problem with the portrayal of Cersei as a mother - it's given her a little complexity without being enough to redeem her (IMO).

 

For all the talk about the reasoning for leaving the valonqar part of the prophecy out on the show, another additional simple explanation - in keeping with the idea that surprise is important to the showrunners - is that, regardless of the actually identity of the valonqar, the more important thing is that it spoils that Cersei is going to die at some point. The show does like to keep people guessing as to who will die and who will live, so maybe they didn't want that to be completely telegraphed either.

[Audreythe2nd]

I have a question about a totally different group of characters: presuming that Euron Greyjoy is being cast, what do you think the Ironborn's role is in the endgame of the show? I know in general the plots of Euron and Victarion in the books, and it doesn't seem like they are casting both. Is Euron important to introduce because he wreaks havoc on key areas of Westeros, thereby weakening the country as a whole? Is it then his fleet of ships that delivers Dany to Westeros (my money is on "yes"), having primed the way for her to take over? Euron ex machina, essentially? Does that mean this "Euron" being cast is actually a mix of Victarion and Euron? Or will Yara (Asha) play some role? I'm very curious and interested to see how this will go. I love a good pirate character. :)

[ElizaD]

I have a question about a totally different group of characters: presuming that Euron Greyjoy is being cast, what do you think the Ironborn's role is in the endgame of the show? I know in general the plots of Euron and Victarion in the books, and it doesn't seem like they are casting both. Is Euron important to introduce because he wreaks havoc on key areas of Westeros, thereby weakening the country as a whole? Is it then his fleet of ships that delivers Dany to Westeros (my money is on "yes"), having primed the way for her to take over?

 

Since they're sending Sam away from the Wall and casting his entire family, I think Euron will end up wrecking the Reach and perhaps causing the end of the Tyrells as a major house, but book or show, I can't see him having much to do with the Others in the north; he's more likely to be Dany's final human opponent. In season 4 Dany had the same number of ships Victarion has in the books, which felt like the show saying she can sail to Westeros when the plot demands it: all elements of Victarion (except badass battle scenes) will probably be cut.

 

Some death pool comments: if a Bolton survives next season it'll be Ramsay since Roose was secondary to him in season 5 and didn't feel like the biggest enemy, but fingers crossed that they and Walder die horribly. Daario will probably go so that Dany won't have that distraction when it's time for her to start interacting with major characters. Margaery is doomed, maybe Loras as well, but I hope the Tarlys are being included because Dickon (or perhaps even Sam and Gilly's "bastard son") gets Highgarden after the war and not just because Euron needs to rape and murder named characters. Pycelle and Kevan are even more definitively doomed than Margaery, and a Martell death is likely too, with Trystane in KL and the Sand Snakes/Ellaria causing trouble. And if the Wall falls, goodbye, Night's Watch cast.

Edited July 16, 2015 by ElizaD

[Audreythe2nd]

Since they're sending Sam away from the Wall and casting his entire family, I think Euron will end up wrecking the Reach and perhaps causing the end of the Tyrells as a major house, but book or show, I can't see him having much to do with the Others in the north; he's more likely to be Dany's final human opponent. In season 4 Dany had the same number of ships Victarion has in the books, which felt like the show saying she can sail to Westeros when the plot demands it: all elements of Victarion (except badass battle scenes) will probably be cut.

 

Ahhhhh, I totally missed that. Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. So theoretically, he would still be playing a bit of the deus- er, pirate ex machina in Westeros by waylaying a few of the major houses, but it stands to reason that he would be her opponent, and not her ally. I just figured since one of Daenerys' physical goals in the takeover has always been ships, ships, ships, and since the Ironborn with their abundance of them were introduced without having done much, that the introduction of a character like this would have something to do with her, even in the show. But I'm totally on board with your explanation, thanks.

[benteen]

But if Victarion is not going to be on the show, who is going to sail the Dothraki Sea?!?!?!? ;)

[Avaleigh]

Since they're sending Sam away from the Wall and casting his entire family, I think Euron will end up wrecking the Reach and perhaps causing the end of the Tyrells as a major house, but book or show, I can't see him having much to do with the Others in the north; he's more likely to be Dany's final human opponent. In season 4 Dany had the same number of ships Victarion has in the books, which felt like the show saying she can sail to Westeros when the plot demands it: all elements of Victarion (except badass battle scenes) will probably be cut.

 

Some death pool comments: if a Bolton survives next season it'll be Ramsay since Roose was secondary to him in season 5 and didn't feel like the biggest enemy, but fingers crossed that they and Walder die horribly. Daario will probably go so that Dany won't have that distraction when it's time for her to start interacting with major characters. Margaery is doomed, maybe Loras as well, but I hope the Tarlys are being included because Dickon (or perhaps even Sam and Gilly's "bastard son") gets Highgarden after the war and not just because Euron needs to rape and murder named characters. Pycelle and Kevan are even more definitively doomed than Margaery, and a Martell death is likely too, with Trystane in KL and the Sand Snakes/Ellaria causing trouble. And if the Wall falls, goodbye, Night's Watch cast.

Would the Tarlys really be next in line after the Tyrells? It doesn't sound impossible to me I just feel like other families might have better claims or at least as good of a chance. What about the Rowans? Other Houses that come to mind are Hightower, Florent, and (maybe) Redwyne. 

 

Nothing against Baby Sam but if he somehow ends up with Highgarden I will...IDK, I'll be confused I guess.

 

If one Bolton is going to outlive the other I think Roose makes the most sense to the story especially in the books. Roose is still a mystery but we basically know everything there is to know about Ramsay. 

[AshleyN]

Would the Tarlys really be next in line after the Tyrells? It doesn't sound impossible to me I just feel like other families might have better claims or at least as good of a chance. What about the Rowans? Other Houses that come to mind are Hightower, Florent, and (maybe) Redwyne. 

 

Nothing against Baby Sam but if he somehow ends up with Highgarden I will...IDK, I'll be confused I guess.

 

If one Bolton is going to outlive the other I think Roose makes the most sense to the story especially in the books. Roose is still a mystery but we basically know everything there is to know about Ramsay. 

Maybe that's the reason Randyll Tarly has been built up as such an amazing military leader? I've also seen speculation that he'll side with the Targs and get a promotion that way.

 

That being said, in the books at least there seem to be an awful lot of Tyrell relatives running around, so it won't be that easy for them to be replaced entirely.

 

Agreed about Roose being the Bolton more likely to escape the season. I know Ramsay got more focus this season, but to me Roose has always felt like the more formidable threat, with Ramsay something more along the lines of The Dragon.

[ElizaD]

Would the Tarlys really be next in line after the Tyrells? It doesn't sound impossible to me I just feel like other families might have better claims or at least as good of a chance. What about the Rowans? Other Houses that come to mind are Hightower, Florent, and (maybe) Redwyne. 

 

Nothing against Baby Sam but if he somehow ends up with Highgarden I will...IDK, I'll be confused I guess.

 

IIRC, unlike the Florents they don't have a claim to Highgarden, but Randyll's wife did have a claim to the keep that Garlan was given and he might have taken that as an insult. Though I'm not ready to predict it will happen, I really like the theory that Tarly might be one of the friends in the Reach and will side with the martial Aegon rather than sweet Tommen. The show has no Aegon and of course it's perfectly possible that the Show Tarlys exist to give Sam/Euron characters they can share scenes with. But someone has to claim Highgarden if the Tyrells are wiped out, which seems at least a little more likely on the show since Margaery/Loras are the only children, and the Hightowers/Redwynes haven't been cast. I know the baby inheriting is not likely even if Sam lies that he's the father, but I'd like to imagine that Gilly will eventually be able to raise him in a nice home, and Sam will at least have friends in high places if Jon ends up on the throne.

 

The Tyrells, Lannisters and Freys are such big houses that it won't be possible to kill all the relatives of the current lords, but they could still be finished in the sense that someone else claims their lands and they'll no longer have the armies and royal support required to win them back.

Edited July 16, 2015 by ElizaD

[Chris24601]

Original Death Pool in bold (minus the two I just don't have an opinion on), my comments in normal text;

Ramsay, Roose, Walda - With their supporting cast all either dead or on the run, I think these are the most likely to bite it and they'll definitely be cleared off the field before the Wall comes down and the Walkers start coming south. While I expect Ramsey and Roose to die in battle, my bet would be that Walda gets killed by a stray arrow or falling debris or similar accident just to highlight that, even when the cause is just (since I expect it to be Jon leading the attack to retake Winterfell), innocent people get hurt and killed in war.

 

Walder - While it might happen in the books, we haven't seen old Walder since season three. If he dies in the show it'll be offscreen since there's no point to bring him back just to kill him. More likely they'll just forget about him entirely.

 

Trystane, Ellaria - Unless the boat's turning around or Ellaria plans on making a trip to King's Landing I think she's gonna get away scott free and just not be seen again. The Sand Snakes were so poorly recieved I would not be surprised if they just dumped them entirely. I suppose there's a thin chance that Bronn has some more of that antidote he got from the flirty Sand Snake and Myrcella actually survives, but that's a longshot at best and without her there's no queenmaker plot in play and no reason for Trystane to not exit stage right at the earliest opportunity.

 

Jorah, Daario - I'm more inclined to think only one of these will bite it this season and if I were a betting man I'd say Daario rather than Jorah bites it in s6 because Jorah has some rapport with Tyrion and isn't Dany's lover. Its also worth remembering the greyscale often takes years to kill you and it can be survived if the subject is strong enough or gets the right treatment, so other than the infectious part, its more akin to a slow-acting and eventually debilitating cancer than say, the ebola virus. My bet is Daario ends up taking an arrow (or the equivalent) for Dany and dies in her arms while Jorah dispatches the killer.

 

Loras, Margaery - Loras will probably end up either dead or gravely injured in a trial by combat as they'll want to match his condition up with the books where he's gravely injured at Dragonstone. Margaery in the books though is released to custody due to weak evidence and chooses a trial by judges of the Faith over a proxy trial by combat. Given the charge on the show is just 'lying to protect her brother' and she's generally beloved by the common people I can't see Marg getting a death sentence and, if she's the YMB then she really needs to survive to see Cersei completely cast down... so she'd be safe so long as Cersei is.

 

Pycelle, Kevan - Pycelle is so uselessly doddering and Kevan such a non-entity relative to the books that I don't even know if its worth valuable screen time to kill them. Plus Varys over with Tyrion so he's not going to be the one to kill Kevan. I think both of them are safe until whatever point Cersei decides to go on a bugnuts vengeance kick and sets Frankenmountain on them. Keven might not even die onscreen.

 

Missandei - This one's a toughy, but I'm not seeing much to be gained storywise by killing her off. She's mostly the voice of the common man in Slaver's Bay and so will be useful to Tyrion when he tries to run the place. She'd also make an excellent character to reflect on Westerosi culture once they cross the sea. I don't see her dying just yet because, as with Jorah, greyscale takes years to kill normally, so I think the worst she'd get hit with in s6 is the reveal she's infected and possibly seeking a cure. Though I think there would be some irony if a cure was found because Missy got infected, but it was too late to save her, but it ends up saving Jorah instead.

[SeanC]

 

Walder - While it might happen in the books, we haven't seen old Walder since season three. If he dies in the show it'll be offscreen since there's no point to bring him back just to kill him. More likely they'll just forget about him entirely.

David Bradley already confirmed that he'll be back.

[Hecate7]

Would the Tarlys really be next in line after the Tyrells? It doesn't sound impossible to me I just feel like other families might have better claims or at least as good of a chance. What about the Rowans? Other Houses that come to mind are Hightower, Florent, and (maybe) Redwyne. 

 

Nothing against Baby Sam but if he somehow ends up with Highgarden I will...IDK, I'll be confused I guess.

 

If one Bolton is going to outlive the other I think Roose makes the most sense to the story especially in the books. Roose is still a mystery but we basically know everything there is to know about Ramsay. 

 

 

House Florent is probably extinct. They're Selyse's relatives.

[FemmyV]

 

Agreed about Roose being the Bolton more likely to escape the season. I know Ramsay got more focus this season, but to me Roose has always felt like the more formidable threat, with Ramsay something more along the lines of The Dragon.

 

I can see Roose trying to make a deal with the WWs, a la Castor.

[Hecate7]

She certainly considers them friends. She banks on them all keeping her secret.

 

The comparison you make doesn't work, because Sansa in the book has no choice but to follow Littlefinger's lead.  TV!Sansa was placed in a position of security independent of Littlefinger that the book version has never come close to.

 

Robin Arryn has never demonstrated any inclination to do that.  He's treated as a basically comic figure on the show.  Those powerful friends were entrusted with the very secret of her survival.

 

Nope, very much the opposite.  The Vale lords disliked and distrusted Littlefinger; they're only working with him because Sansa vouched for him, meaning that she is the more significant and trustworthy figure, as far as they're concerned.

 

If she really considered them friends, she would have stuck around. I think we need to understand that after her experiences, first with the Lannisters, and then with the Tyrells, Sansa takes a dim view of "friends." There aren't any, as far as she knows. Her own aunt tried to fling her through the Moon Door.

 

As for Robin not showing the inclination to throw people through the Moon Door if he gets mad at him, have we been watching the same show? His very first lines had to do with flinging Tyrion through the Moon Door. Tyrion had done nothing to him. "Make the bad man fly!" was pretty much all Robin could say at that age.

 

The best thing he could think of to do with the crystal bird Baelish gave him as a gift, was to throw it out the Moon Door. He likes watching things, and people, "fly." When he was "courting" Sansa, his first thought was to offer to throw everyone they didn't like out the Moon Door, (you know, the way he and his mother have always done for entertainment). This, not gifts, compliments, or fun games, was Robin's idea. Then he was concerned that her castle lacked a Moon Door. Obviously to Robin Arryn that is the most important door in the castle, his favorite room in the house. Sansa was just lucky they weren't standing near it, and that he was not yet her husband nor Lord of the Vale, when she slapped him. He's too little to fling her through it now, but I don't think their marriage would last a week--his servants are no less loyal and obedient than Joffrey's were.

 

Robin Arryn is going to run into a serious problem as an adult--he's only going to be able to get it up while nursing and watching someone or something unreplacable fall through a hole in the floor.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

If she really considered them friends, she would have stuck around. I think we need to understand that after her experiences, first with the Lannisters, and then with the Tyrells, Sansa takes a dim view of "friends." There aren't any, as far as she knows. Her own aunt tried to fling her through the Moon Door.

No, she wouldn't have, because the plot required her to leave.  She explicitly said she trusted Royce.  She just left because the show turned her into a credulous pawn of Littlefinger.

 

As for Robin not showing the inclination to throw people through the Moon Door if he gets mad at him, have we been watching the same show?

 

I didn't say that.  I was responding to idea of him trying to have her thrown out the door.  She's never demonstrated the slightest concern about that, and Robin is, for the most part, pretty easily-led.

[Hecate7]

I didn't say soneone can't comment if they didn't read the books, I said its hard to appreciate the difference if you haven't read the books in their entirety. Obviously people who have can still disagree.

But I think there is a big difference in book jamie and show jamie is that I don't see him making his own decisions yet. To me he still revolves around cersei. As really weird as some of the dialogue in dorne was, I think it showed for jamie jis story is still about loving someone he shouldn't.

On to another front, I have to say that putting sansa in the north just to move her to riverlands ot back to the vale would not be a shortcut. I defended the writers on this choice all season and I feel stupid for it.

 

Well, it will probably end up being amazing. There's more to come that we don't know about, after all.

 

I think Jaime's love for Cersei is unavoidable. How do you simply break up with your twin? How can you end a relationship that began in the womb? She is evil, and probably always was, but how can he ever stop hoping that she isn't? How can he ever really stop feeling responsible for her? It's a very unusual relationship, and it can't really have a standard resolution.

[Hecate7]

No, she wouldn't have, because the plot required her to leave.  She explicitly said she trusted Royce.  She just left because the show turned her into a credulous pawn of Littlefinger.

 

I didn't say that.  I was responding to idea of him trying to have her thrown out the door.  She's never demonstrated the slightest concern about that, and Robin is, for the most part, pretty easily-led.

 

What does her demonstrating concern about it have to do with anything? She's learned to hold her face still and say the right words, always. She had a very close call with the Moon Door. Robin rarely talks about anything else--it was a matter of time before they fought again, over something, and he ordered her flung through it. Another time Baelish might not have been there to save her.

 

If I were Sansa I wouldn't want to waste a minute longer in that castle than I had to. Robin is Lyssa Arryn's son. He's very likely to be as crazy as she is, if not more so.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

Robin rarely talks about anything else--it was a matter of time before they fought again, over something, and he ordered her flung through it. Another time Baelish might not have been there to save her.

They don't actually throw people through the Moon Door when Robin wants to.  He's a kid with no power.

 

Moreover, they left the Eyrie.

Edited July 17, 2015 by SeanC

[Audreythe2nd]

I think Jaime's love for Cersei is unavoidable. How do you simply break up with your twin? How can you end a relationship that began in the womb? She is evil, and probably always was, but how can he ever stop hoping that she isn't? How can he ever really stop feeling responsible for her? It's a very unusual relationship, and it can't really have a standard resolution.

 

Yeah, I think this may be why they postponed their falling apart on a grander scale on the show. If the boat does indeed make it to King's Landing (aaaarrrGGGGHHH) I fully expect some combination of the following to happen:

 

- Jaime will be traumatized by Myrcella's death/failing Cersei

- Jaime will be upset about her walk of shame, but feel betrayed when he learns about her infidelity

- Jaime will understand that Doran and Trystane were not responsible via Bronn from his first hand knowledge of the Sand Snakes poison

- Jaime and Cersei will react in entirely different manners to her death. She will be vengeful, he will be diplomatic (in, at the very least, not wanting to start a war).

- She will likely have the undead Mountain execute Trystane (alternative: Jaime will also be vengeful and NOT diplomatic, but when he sees the brutal fashion in which Trystane is dispatched of, he will experience even more guilt)

- Cersei (who will be showing clear signs of madness at this point) will blame Jaime for failing her time and time again, and state that since she has a new and improved member of the Kingsguard, she no longer needs him. My guess is that Jaime will be dismissed from the Kingsguard, the way Ser Barristan was.

- Bye-bye Jaime/Cersei relationship

**This all supposes that stupid boat is actually going to King's Landing - I'd have to come up with other theories if it wasn't**

 

I realize that it's not Jaime making the same slow realization about Cersei that he does in the books, and it gives Cersei the upper hand, but I think if they do it this way I can see the logic. I don't think it would have been particularly effective for Jaime to first learn about Cersei and Lancel from Tyrion the way he does in the books. To have that, you would have to have Jaime confessing to the whole Tysha thing before Tyrion escapes. And I am of the personal opinion that it was a good call to take that out on TV. I don't think that exclusion had anything to do with "whitewashing" Tyrion - I just think it would have been too much verbal information at that particular moment. So anyway, once they excluded that, I can see how the timeline of Cersei/Jaime's breakup was fudged around a bit. Yeah, they could have had Jaime finding out about Lancel directly from him at the beginning of Season 5, but at that point it was suspenseful as to whether Lancel would talk at all, and how that information would be used. So I think the showrunners were just like, "eh, we'll deal with it more next season." I really, really don't foresee the books having Jaime and Cersei "break up" and the show having them stay together. I just think they're going to go for the crash and burn effect. Obv. I know nothing (Jon Snow) and could be totally wrong.

 

Speaking of annoying catchphrases like "You know nothing," Jaime's "You can't help who you love" is repeated so often as mantra that I'm sure it's foreshadowing something, even if it's just his character development: "Oh wait... no, you totally can."

Edited July 17, 2015 by Audreythe2nd

[nksarmi]

My head my explode if that boat makes it to King's Landing without some sort of explanation as to why.  It will be even worse if Tystane is in custody and I have to fanwhack away why Doran wouldn't have sent any men to protect the heir to Dorne!

 

I think I shall spend the next several months hoping that Tystane carries a regular stock of antidote on him or that bad pussy slipped Bron that antidote when she said that ridiculous line and that Myrcella will be saved and be alive when they get to KL.  That will make the ensuing drama make much more sense in my head - especially if Jamie ends up being the "sane" and "responsible" parent to Tommen and Myrcella while Cersei goes batshit crazy.

Edited July 18, 2015 by nksarmi

[Hecate7]

They don't actually throw people through the Moon Door when Robin wants to.  He's a kid with no power.

 

Moreover, they left the Eyrie.

 

I thought leaving the Eyrie was what you were objecting to.

 

And Robin is the Lord of the Vale. Baelish is Lord Protector and Regent. Robin is NOT a kid with no power, any more than Joffrey was. Robin can give orders. He can be vetoed by Baelish, or whoever else Baelish appoints as acting regent. Bran Stark was acting ruler of Winterfell at a younger age than Robin, and people took his decisions seriously. The Lord of Winterfell was still alive, even, but absent. So no, it doesn't work that way. If Robin wants you thrown through the Moon Door, it.is going to happen unless the Regent is willing to risk ruining a relationship with him to stick up for you. Possible in this instance. A big gamble with anyone as Regent besides Baelish.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

Yeah, I think this may be why they postponed their falling apart on a grander scale on the show. If the boat does indeed make it to King's Landing (aaaarrrGGGGHHH) I fully expect some combination of the following to happen:

 

- Jaime will be traumatized by Myrcella's death/failing Cersei

- Jaime will be upset about her walk of shame, but feel betrayed when he learns about her infidelity

- Jaime will understand that Doran and Trystane were not responsible via Bronn from his first hand knowledge of the Sand Snakes poison

- Jaime and Cersei will react in entirely different manners to her death. She will be vengeful, he will be diplomatic (in, at the very least, not wanting to start a war).

- She will likely have the undead Mountain execute Trystane (alternative: Jaime will also be vengeful and NOT diplomatic, but when he sees the brutal fashion in which Trystane is dispatched of, he will experience even more guilt)

- Cersei (who will be showing clear signs of madness at this point) will blame Jaime for failing her time and time again, and state that since she has a new and improved member of the Kingsguard, she no longer needs him. My guess is that Jaime will be dismissed from the Kingsguard, the way Ser Barristan was.

- Bye-bye Jaime/Cersei relationship

**This all supposes that stupid boat is actually going to King's Landing - I'd have to come up with other theories if it wasn't**

 

I realize that it's not Jaime making the same slow realization about Cersei that he does in the books, and it gives Cersei the upper hand, but I think if they do it this way I can see the logic. I don't think it would have been particularly effective for Jaime to first learn about Cersei and Lancel from Tyrion the way he does in the books. To have that, you would have to have Jaime confessing to the whole Tysha thing before Tyrion escapes. And I am of the personal opinion that it was a good call to take that out on TV. I don't think that exclusion had anything to do with "whitewashing" Tyrion - I just think it would have been too much verbal information at that particular moment. So anyway, once they excluded that, I can see how the timeline of Cersei/Jaime's breakup was fudged around a bit. Yeah, they could have had Jaime finding out about Lancel directly from him at the beginning of Season 5, but at that point it was suspenseful as to whether Lancel would talk at all, and how that information would be used. So I think the showrunners were just like, "eh, we'll deal with it more next season." I really, really don't foresee the books having Jaime and Cersei "break up" and the show having them stay together. I just think they're going to go for the crash and burn effect. Obv. I know nothing (Jon Snow) and could be totally wrong.

 

Speaking of annoying catchphrases like "You know nothing," Jaime's "You can't help who you love" is repeated so often as mantra that I'm sure it's foreshadowing something, even if it's just his character development: "Oh wait... no, you totally can."

 

Oh, yes, I forgot that there will be no concealing her infidelity with Lancel now that it was the subject of her walk of shame.

 

But the joke will be on Cersei once she dismisses Jaime from the King's Guard, if that's what she opts to do. Jaime instantly becomes Lord of Casterly Rock and assumes his rightful place as head of the Lannister family. He will then be able to overrule pretty much everything she does, order her back to Casterly Rock, marry her off to someone...whatever he thinks is appropriate. Even Kevan will have to do what Jaime says. If Cersei is smart, as we all know she isn't, she won't have Jaime removed from the King's Guard.

[SeanC]

I thought leaving the Eyrie was what you were objecting to.

 

And Robin is the Lord of the Vale. Baelish is Lord Protector and Regent. Robin is NOT a kid with no power, any more than Joffrey was. Robin can give orders. He can be vetoed by Baelish, or whoever else Baelish appoints as acting regent. Bran Stark was acting ruler of Winterfell at a younger age than Robin, and people took his decisions seriously. The Lord of Winterfell was still alive, even, but absent. So no, it doesn't work that way. If Robin wants you thrown through the Moon Door, it.is going to happen unless the Regent is willing to risk ruining a relationship with him to stick up for you. Possible in this instance. A big gamble with anyone as Regent besides Baelish.

No, I objected to leaving the Vale.  Regardless, she did not leave the Eyrie because she felt unsafe there.

 

Can you cite a single example of Robin having someone thrown through the Moon Door?  It hasn't happened, because people know they're childish wishes.  Joffrey is not an example of how regency normally works -- Cersei just sucks at her job.  As Jaime tells the Kingsguard, they're not meant to follow commands of the kind Joffrey issues.  Bran's input was valued, but that was because Bran's input was reasonable.  Robin throwing occasional fits is not taken seriously.  Hence, why Baelish, Royce, et al. don't think much of him, and are trying to whip him into some semblance of shape.

[Avaleigh]

One thing that indicated to me that Robert had more say so than the average kid was the way not a single person objected when Lysa said that Robert would judge Tyrion's trial. Like, nobody even lifts so much as an eyebrow. I thought that was insane.

[screamin]

Right? I mean she's been a queen THREE times and during that time Cersei's life has gone to shit, Jamie "abandoned" her, Myrcella is sent away and then maimed, Joffrey and Tywin are murdered, she becomes a bloated drunk, and she has to endure the walk of Shame, and trial at the hands of the Faith. 

 

And it's the  kind of thing that I can't see the text in book or on tv ever confirming. Bottom line prophecies are stupid, and you can read anything you want into them. Sansa is NOT a Queen and I don't anticipate her becoming one, but I also could give two shits about the prophecy beyond the way it undoes Cersei mentally.

 

To the vast majority of Westeros, Sansa is the last heir to Robb's King in the North title - so Queen in the North is a title she can officially hold and be known by until Rickon eventually turns up, which may not be for quite some time. Seems to me possible that she could dispatch Cersei in that time...at least, it's nearly my favorite theory.

[screamin]

One thing that indicated to me that Robert had more say so than the average kid was the way not a single person objected when Lysa said that Robert would judge Tyrion's trial. Like, nobody even lifts so much as an eyebrow. I thought that was insane.

I think it was pretty clear to all that Lysa (the official Regent) was the one who had all the power and knew that Robin would do what she wanted, no matter who she said was calling the shots. And I'll agree Lysa's insane, but the Vale had already decided they were going to accept her as Regent despite her insanity, so the fact that one manifestation of that insanity is that she made the trial into a puppet show for Robin's benefit to make him feel like he was Really and Truly a Great Ruler pulling the strings is not a big deal in comparison.

[FemmyV]

If Robin wants you thrown through the Moon Door, it.is going to happen unless the Regent is willing to risk ruining a relationship with him to stick up for you. Possible in this instance. A big gamble with anyone as Regent besides Baelish.

 

 Think of Varys riddle and transport it: A priest, Robin and Baelish each command a sell-sword to kill the other two. Who lives?

[Audreythe2nd]

Hecate, I think that Jaime may eventually be removed from the Kingsguard in the books, which would be ironic considering his renewed honourable commitment to it, but if the show was going to do it, I think it would be now. I agree that it would be colossally stupid on Cersei's part.

 

I'm going to bring the rest of what I was going to say over to the speculation thread, because I'm veering too much on my own personal theories.

[Avaleigh]

Think of Varys riddle and transport it: A priest, Robin and Baelish each command a sell-sword to kill the other two. Who lives?

A sellsword is going to go for the money but ask a knight like Ser Vardis what he would do and I'm not sure that the answer is the same.

[Hecate7]

 Think of Varys riddle and transport it: A priest, Robin and Baelish each command a sell-sword to kill the other two. Who lives?

 

Depends on where the money's coming from. But Sansa's paying nobody, and so it's very unlikely anyone would save her from Robin. She was smart to leave when she did. There's no guarantee Royce would be some nice benevolent fatherly type and not a rapist or weirdo. There's no guarantee ANYONE is going to not be dangerous for Sansa. She went where her mentor led and rightly so, at this stage of her life. She had no idea what Baelish was really all about, either, and thought that she could probably control him because he seems infatuated with her. To be fair, so did most of the audience.

[Hecate7]

One thing that indicated to me that Robert had more say so than the average kid was the way not a single person objected when Lysa said that Robert would judge Tyrion's trial. Like, nobody even lifts so much as an eyebrow. I thought that was insane.

 

Exactly. Besides, he told Sansa that they always throw anybody they don't like through the Moon Door. He made it sound as if they throw people through that thing every week or so.

 

Can you cite a single example of Robin having someone thrown through the Moon Door?

 

No, but it's not because he hasn't done it. It's sort of like all the animals Joffrey has tortured--there wasn't time to show it and they didn't want to waste a character on it. Instead they just refer to it in the dialogue.

 

Anyplace Sansa goes, there will be an abusive man, a murderous woman, and an insanely dangerous situation brewing. There will also be a man who is vaguely interested in rescuing her for reasons of his own. Her skills are speechcraft, stealth, and charisma. Others of her same class include Cersei, Margaery, and Danaerys. We finally saw her use stealth to steal a thing to pick her lock. She has learned how to keep from saying the wrong things. Now she's also learned how to say some of the right things.

 

If anyone is on a path to becoming a Master of Whispers, it's Sansa. Compare her with Varys or Littlefinger at her same age. Varys was kidnapped and castrated, Littlefinger fought a duel with Brandon Stark and got himself scarred for life. Sansa actually looks pretty good by comparison. The hardest part of Sansa's life is figuring out who is friend, and who is foe. Jon Snow's having the same trouble.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

No, but it's not because he hasn't done it.

Yes, it is.  What you're suggesting has absolutely no basis in either the show or the text.  Robin is a bratty kid whose tantrums are not heeded.

Edited July 19, 2015 by SeanC

[Hecate7]

The only reason Robin didn't get to throw Tyrion through the door is that Bronn fought for him. Lyssa indulged all of Robin's tantrums. And Robin tells us that he and his mother always throw people they don't like through that door. I don't think we're meant to dismiss that as an exaggeration or a lie. The Moon Door is Robin's favorite toy and his obsession.

 

Oh, and lest we forget, Lyssa warned Cat that if she ever pulled anything like bringing a prisoner or Lannister attention to her house again, in Lyssa's words, "you will leave by the Moon Door." Not much love lost there. The kid isn't just spoiled and watching too much TV. His mother is executing people at the drop of a hat and letting him participate in it for fun.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

The only reason Robin didn't get to throw Tyrion through the door is that Bronn fought for him. Lyssa indulged all of Robin's tantrums. And Robin tells us that he and his mother always throw people they don't like through that door. I don't think we're meant to dismiss that as an exaggeration or a lie. The Moon Door is Robin's favorite toy and his obsession.

 

Oh, and lest we forget, Lyssa warned Cat that if she ever pulled anything like bringing a prisoner or Lannister attention to her house again, in Lyssa's words, "you will leave by the Moon Door." Not much love lost there. The kid isn't just spoiled and watching too much TV. His mother is executing people at the drop of a hat and letting him participate in it for fun.

Tyrion was on trial for murdering Robin's dad.  I'm sure Robin has presided/witnessed criminal trials.  But no, they are not tossing random people out the Moon Door because they look at Robin funny, which is what you seem to think.  I don't know how you could possibly read Sansa's chapters and get that impression; he's a brat and an annoyance, not a walk-on-eggshells-around-him killer.

Edited July 19, 2015 by SeanC

[FemmyV]

 

Lyssa indulged all of Robin's tantrums.

And she's not around anymore.

 

Robin is young and weak and a tyrant. And LF is his legal guardian. The odds of some accident befalling him, before he can come into rightful control of the Vale, are 5:1

Edited July 19, 2015 by FemmyV

[Avaleigh]

The show definitely gave me the impression that Robert had seen "bad" people put through the Moon Door prior to wanting to do it to Tyrion. In the books I think he's seen it happen too and he was certainly expecting to be able to make Tyrion fly. When it doesn't happen he's so pissed that he goes into one of his shaking fits. He basically threw a tantrum because he couldn't have Tyrion killed as he expected they would be able to. It's like he can't even comprehend that the trial has gone in Tyrion's favor because he's never seen their side lose before.

 

I'd be shocked if we're supposed to think that Tyrion's trial by combat was the first time Robert was ever going to 'make a man fly'.                                 

[SeanC]

The show definitely gave me the impression that Robert had seen "bad" people put through the Moon Door prior to wanting to do it to Tyrion. In the books I think he's seen it happen too and he was certainly expecting to be able to make Tyrion fly. When it doesn't happen he's so pissed that he goes into one of his shaking fits. He basically threw a tantrum because he couldn't have Tyrion killed as he expected they would be able to. It's like he can't even comprehend that the trial has gone in Tyrion's favor because he's never seen their side lose before.

I'd be shocked if we're supposed to think that Tyrion's trial by combat was the first time Robert was ever going to 'make a man fly'.

Again, Tyrion was on trial for murdering Robert's father. Obviously he has seen trials and executions of that nature; just as all the Stark boys see their dad behead people. That is not the same thing as Robert having people he doesn't like thrown through the door for trivialities. If that was happening, the way people react to him would be totally different. Edited July 19, 2015 by SeanC