Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Avaleigh]

Discussing some spoilers for upcoming episodes:

 

Well, the other shoe has dropped regarding the Winterfell story, in the form of more information from that site that exists to catalogue upcoming TV nudity/sex scenes.  The marriage at Winterfell is in episode 6, complete with Sansa being "deflowered" by Ramsay, in a scene that is supposedly primarily focused on Theon's reaction; given that that fits with the description Alfie Allen gave of the horrible scene that will make huge waves, and Iwan Rheon's talk about the worst thing he's ever done, I'm guessing he gets quite violent.  So D&D have rewritten Sansa's story to include her being violently raped.

 

Well, mark your calendars for the shitstorm.

Jesus. The purpose of that site--I don't really know what to say. 

 

As far as the spoilers...

FFS rape has a way of totally derailing discussion when it comes to this show so I was really hoping that this wasn't going to happen.

 

The best thing I can say is that it doesn't look like we're going to see much and that it'll mainly be about Theon's response to what is happening to Sansa. Which is problematic in its own way because here again we're in a situation where a woman is going to get raped and a large focus of that is going to be on the pain of the male character who is witnessing said rape. It's like a weird ass callback to Tyrion having to witness what happened to Tysha.

 

 

I'm also curious as to how Roose will feel about Ramsay being abusive to Sansa. Roose doesn't appear to be abusive to Walda. She actually seems surprisingly happy which I suppose is a bit of an assumption based on two or three scenes but I feel like she wouldn't be so smiley if she were really being put through hell by Roose. Won't he think that Ramsay's abuse of Sansa will hurt their cause in terms of winning Northerners over?

 

Will Littlefinger be pissed when he finds out? Will he care or was he suspecting something like this to happen? Maybe it suits his purpose because he thinks Sansa will again see him as her savior if he rescues her from the situation? I don't really get where Littlefinger is in all of this.

 

I'd have to think that if Roose had it to do over again that Walda would have ended up with Ramsay and he would have ended up with Sansa. 

 

I also wonder where Myranda is in all of this. She's a hateful bitch but I still don't look forward to however Ramsay is going to kill her. (You know he will.) I'm assuming she'll be another hunt victim and that this will really freak out Sansa and Theon.

 

 

With all the 'dragon has three heads' discussion, I'm not sure there's going to be just one person fulfilling the role.  

 

And I really don't believe any of the Nissa Nissa theories, regarding Dany or any of the series' other major female POVs; the idea that the culmination of their stories is going to be to die so that a male character can save the day is a really regressive notion.

In a scenario like that I would see it as men and women saving the day especially if it's a situation where Dany (or Arya) realize that this is what they and Jon need to do in order to triumph. I can't see it just clicking for Jon and having him stab some female character in the heart without there being build up and the woman commanding him to do it. I don't think the woman would be without agency in the situation and I don't think a death like that would take away any heroism from the act just because Jon would still have more fighting to do with the sword. 

[SeanC]

I'm also curious as to how Roose will feel about Ramsay being abusive to Sansa. Roose doesn't appear to be abusive to Walda. She actually seems surprisingly happy which I suppose is a bit of an assumption based on two or three scenes but I feel like she wouldn't be so smiley if she were really being put through hell by Roose. Won't he think that Ramsay's abuse of Sansa will hurt their cause in terms of winning Northerners over?

We see that in the books.  Roose calls Ramsay a fool for abusing fArya, but doesn't do anything else other than ask Ramsay to stop, which he doesn't.

 

I also wonder where Myranda is in all of this. She's a hateful bitch but I still don't look forward to however Ramsay is going to kill her. (You know he will.) I'm assuming she'll be another hunt victim and that this will really freak out Sansa and Theon.

With the spoiler that Myranda is in episode 6, that's three of the four appearances we know she has this season used up, with the last being in an episode directed by David Nutter, so episode 9 or episode 10.  I actually don't think she's going to be hunted; I think she's going to be the "recognizable" death in the Winterfell escape story, as the only name Bolton henchman.  I can see the writers having Theon kill her to show he's turned against the Boltons.

[WearyTraveler]

Well, the site doesn't say anything about

rape

, at least not the article that was linked by the OP of the spoiler.  That article says, and I quote, 

Then for the sex scene, Ramsay forces Theon to stay and watch as he deflowers Sansa.

.

 

For all we know, 

Sansa participates willingly, or something happens right before the consummation.  I think people are concerned for D&D's plan for Sansa and maybe they are reading more than it's said because of their own fears.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen, because it might, but I don't think the spoiler is 100% definitive in saying Sansa will be a victim and will be treated exactly as Jeyne Poole was.

Edited May 8, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Avaleigh]

We see that in the books.  Roose calls Ramsay a fool for abusing fArya, but doesn't do anything else other than ask Ramsay to stop, which he doesn't.

I didn't remember them having the conversation. (Probably because I basically blew through the Reek/Theon chapters and only did so once.) You'd think he'd smack some sense into him since this could potentially upset their entire apple cart. 

 

Also, what's with Roose taunting Ramsay about Walda's pregnancy? How can he trust that Ramsay isn't crazy enough to kill them both if he feels threatened or feels that he doesn't have anything to lose? As fat as Walda is they could have kept that pregnancy on the down low and even let her have the baby at the Dreadfort or even the Twins. The idea that crazy ass Ramsay is just going to let some younger brother give him a lifetime of uneasiness just sounds too absurd for words. I don't understand how Roose thinks he can keep Ramsay in check when Ramsay doesn't really care about anything or have a fear of anything in particular. 

 

Then when you consider book Roose's non reaction to Ramsay killing his legitimate son and I wonder what all goes on in Roose's head. Does he really just want the North? He's a mystery to me and I'm not totally sure what it is he really wants.

 

Sansa participates willingly, or something happens right before the consummation.  I think people are concerned for D&D's plan for Sansa and maybe they are reading more than it's said because of their own fears.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen, because it might, but I don't think the spoiler is 100% definitive in saying Sansa will be a victim and will be treated exactly as Jeyne Poole was.

 

I think Sansa will participate "willingly" and it'll still end up being horrible. Worse than what Dany went through. Why are they going to focus on Theon's reaction if he's going to witness some average sex scene? If it isn't something horrifying then what are the actors talking about? Also, if Ramsay isn't treating Sansa horribly then why does it seem like Theon and Sansa are probably going to try to escape from Winterfell during a freaking snowstorm?  My guess is because they'd rather risk dying from hypothermia and whatever else than be in the Bolton environment for a moment longer.

[SeanC]

Well, the site doesn't say anything about

rape

, at least not the article that was linked by the OP of the spoiler.  That article says, and I quote, 

Then for the sex scene, Ramsay forces Theon to stay and watch as he deflowers Sansa.

.

 

For all we know, 

Sansa participates willingly, or something happens right before the consummation.  I think people are concerned for D&D's plan for Sansa and maybe they are reading more than it's said because of their own fears.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen, because it might, but I don't think the spoiler is 100% definitive in saying Sansa will be a victim and will be treated exactly as Jeyne Poole was.

Like I said in the post, it's not just the spoiler itself, it's that in conjunction with what Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen have said in other interviews that point the way pretty clearly.  I could be wrong (we'll know in another nine days), but I don't think I am.

Edited May 8, 2015 by SeanC

[Shanna]

I can't handle those spoilers right now.

I don't trust Melisandre or her version of The Lord of light. Now, thoros and berics lord of light maybe. So who is aa and why should I care about him? I believe she is sincere but completely wrong.

[WearyTraveler]

Okay, what if all the actors' talk refers to 

Sansa killing Ramsey right before he completes the deed? What if she tries to kill him and fails? What if that's why she and Theon escape? Once again, It could definitely happen the way some people see it, but I wouldn't discard all the possibilities just yet. I don't know, I just don't like to get upset over something that may or may not happen. I still think we don't have enough information to say what exactly happens.

 

So, I'm going to just wait and see.

[FurryFury]

Ugh ugh ugh these spoilers make me regret I came back to the show after the Jaime/Cersei sex controversy last season. I don't think I can handle it. (and also, why isn't there an all purpose spoiler/speculation thread? for books, TV and everything)

Edited May 8, 2015 by FurryFury

[SeanC]

Okay, what if all the actors' talk refers to 

Sansa killing Ramsey right before he completes the deed? What if she tries to kill him and fails? What if that's why she and Theon escape? Once again, It could definitely happen the way some people see it, but I wouldn't discard all the possibilities just yet. I don't know, I just don't like to get upset over something that may or may not happen. I still think we don't have enough information to say what exactly happens.

We know from the descriptions of episodes 7-8 that Sansa is still hanging around Winterfell with relative freedom of movement, so that would seem fairly unlikely.

[WearyTraveler]

I'll remain stubbornly optimistic :D 

[Dev F]

If nothing else,

the title of the episode, "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken," suggests that it will not be a story about people mired in victimhood.

[Avaleigh]

I guess this is just some unnecessary way to get Sansa to feel vengeful towards Littlefinger specifically (in addition to the Boltons) so that when she kills LF one day it'll just make people extra gleeful at seeing the bastard pay.

[magdalene]

Could those spoilers be fake? I thought the first four episodes were the only episodes made available early?

 

I have a question about the four deaths this season that book readers won't expect. One of course has already happened - any consensus as to who the others are going to be?

[Danny Franks]

Honestly, I think I'm at the point now where I don't care enough about what happens in this story to wade through this sort of stuff. It passed being entertaining a while ago, and all the experience of this show seems to be now is waiting for the next Shocking Event to occur. There's not much thought being given to anything approaching logic. It's clear that the only people who really get any agency are the sociopaths and psychopaths, and far from finding that realistic, I find it tiresomely predictable and trite.

 

Added to the fact that the first four episodes of this season were boring as shit (perhaps they figure they can get away with that if there's something truly shocking and unpleasant at the mid-point), and I don't really see any reason to stay invested.

[SeanC]

Could those spoilers be fake? I thought the first four episodes were the only episodes made available early?

 

I have a question about the four deaths this season that book readers won't expect. One of course has already happened - any consensus as to who the others are going to be?

There are other spoiler sources apart from leaked episodes, and these guys have had reliable spoilers about GOT last season; they have legit insider sources (somehow).

 

Two are Mance and Barristan, and I expect the third will be Trant.  About the fourth, I don't know.

[gemmalogical]

Two are Mance and Barristan, and I expect the third will be Trant.  About the fourth, I don't know.

Bronn.

Also rumored to be in episode 6.

 

I'm going to need a drink and a sedative that night.

[Avaleigh]

Seriously, gemmalogical? I had a feeling that it was coming but not until episode 9. I think there are pics of the characterin episode nine. Not sure though.

[gemmalogical]

You might be right, Avaleigh. But I had heard episode 6 based on filming spoilers.

 

So maybe I'll need a drink for Ep 6 and a sedative for Ep 9.

[Danny Franks]

Oh, they're going to

kill Bronn as well?

So they actually don't want me to watch the show? Now I understand.

 

By the final season, I imagine the only characters left will be Littlefinger, Ramsay and a few witless pawns for them to manipulate and abuse.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Danny Franks

[FurryFury]

Well, TBH, I saw that character's death coming without any spoilers, so it's not like it's exactly shocking (Barristan was way more surprising and upsetting for me, I think he was a much better person, more interesting and likable).

[Cheshrkat]

I hate the spoiler above, so I refuse to believe it until I see it on screen.

 

If the wedding actually takes place and Sansa has to have sex with Ramsay with Theon watching, then I don't care if it's violent or appears consensual - we know it's not consensual, that she doesn't really want to marry him, and Sansa basically continues to just be a victim. Having Theon watch is just humiliating for Sansa.  If it is violent or an outright rape, then that's just degrees of worse. I was really hoping that they would change the Jeyne story enough that we wouldn't actually get to the consummation of the marriage.

 

At this point, it's shaping up to be an entire season of women having sex with men they don't want - Sansa/Ramsay, potentially Dany/Hizdar - women (or girls) potentially burned alive (Shireen) - culminating in Cersei's walk of shame.  Don't get me wrong - I never felt badly for Cersei in the books, because she had it coming, but now it's just going to be the cherry on a sundae of degradation for the main female characters.  They'll probably have Arya sleep with Meryn Trant before she kills him at this point.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Cheshrkat

[nksarmi]

Could those spoilers be fake? I thought the first four episodes were the only episodes made available early?

 

I have a question about the four deaths this season that book readers won't expect. One of course has already happened - any consensus as to who the others are going to be?

I think we are on two at this point...Manse being one and Ser Barrister being two.

 

I suspect Bronn could be a third given how many people are speculating he could take the place of another character from the books.

[FurryFury]

As for Dany and Hizdhar,

I don't agree that it has anything in common with Sansa's situation. I've always seen it as her choice. Plus, it somewhat parallels Robb's situation with Jeyne and his Frey bride - only Dany decided to go through with what she thought was the right political action despite everything (she still failed, but because of other things).

[magdalene]

Oh. 

I had guessed Bronn was a goner but seeing it as an actual spoiler smarts.

Edited May 9, 2015 by magdalene

[Danny Franks]

I hate the spoiler above, so I refuse to believe it until I see it on screen.

 

If the wedding actually takes place and Sansa has to have sex with Ramsay with Theon watching, then I don't care if it's violent or appears consensual - we know it's not consensual, that she doesn't really want to marry him, and Sansa basically continues to just be a victim. Having Theon watch is just humiliating for Sansa.  If it is violent or an outright rape, then that's just degrees of worse. I was really hoping that they would change the Jeyne story enough that we wouldn't actually get to the consummation of the marriage.

 

At this point, it's shaping up to be an entire season of women having sex with men they don't want - Sansa/Ramsay, potentially Dany/Hizdar - women (or girls) potentially burned alive (Shireen) - culminating in Cersei's walk of shame.  Don't get me wrong - I never felt badly for Cersei in the books, because she had it coming, but now it's just going to be the cherry on a sundae of degradation for the main female characters.  They'll probably have Arya sleep with Meryn Trant before she kills him at this point.

 

I couldn't agree with you more 

about Sansa. It just reiterates her victimhood, and the victimhood of women in general, if she's forced to have sex with Ramsay 'consensually' or not, with Theon watching. It's not something Sansa would ever do, if she had the choice, which makes it a form of rape in my book.

 

Honestly, I'm starting to really have issues with the way women as a whole are treated in this series. The idea that Sansa can only 'get vengeance' by first having sex with the bad guy is just vile, and unnecessary, it feels like the writers are saying that a woman's only true weapon is what's between her legs, and if that's the case, then every woman in this show is doomed to fail.

 

When you look at the show as a whole, the women really do not have much going for them. Any who have some level of success end up being 'reminded of what they are', like Ros was. Like Cersei will, with her walk of shame, and Margaery as well, I've no doubt. Sansa is going to be forcefully reminded that she's nothing but a breeding sow for one lord or another, Arya only gets to be free of that by becoming No One (unless they sex her up as well, which wouldn't surprise me). Melisandre seems to have one trick up her sleeve, and it's to take her clothes off. If that doesn't work, she seems stumped.

 

The gender politics are fucked up, and I don't think saying 'but that's just what their world is like' is a valid excuse any more. They have the power to upend that world and subvert expectations, if they wish, but instead they're just doubling down on the mistreatment and saying that the women really don't have any other option.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Danny Franks

[BlackberryJam]

The entire ASoIaF is about women having sex with men they don't want to have sex with. Lysa and Jon Arryn, Ned and Catelyn Stark when they got married, Cersei and Robert, Dany and Drogo, Roslin and Edmure. Walder Frey and every single one of his wives. That's what these political marriages are. Ned and Cat betrothed Sansa to a total psycho and she would have had to have had sex with him. Margaery only missed that fate because Olenna got all murdery.

 

Robert didn't want to bang Cersei, he wanted to bang Lyanna. Edmure was only cool banging Roslin when she turned out to be pretty. Was Roose really into banging Fat Walda? Did Jon Arryn enjoy sticking his dick in Lysa? Sure, I get that it's different for men, but really, Sansa was always destined for a political marriage and never destined for a love match. She was always going to lose her virginity out of duty. Even Arya was betrothed to some Frey. 

 

I'm not saying it's not gross. It is. I hate it. But Sansa possibly marrying Ramsay and possibly having to consummate it is not any different from pretty much every marriage in the books. In fact, the books tend to be grosser about sex than the show, but that's because GRRM can't write a good sex scene to save his life.

 

So yeah,

if Ramsay and Sansa consummate the marriage and it's not violent or brutal, then it's right up there with Ned and Cat on their wedding night. Both just doing their duty.

 

As to the other spoiler

Bronn has had a target on his forehead since he was in the Oathkeeper goodbye scene. Bronn is going to die and in doing so, move Jaime further down his path of abandoning KL for Brienne, oaths and honor.

 

ETA: Is it just that much harder for us to see it on screen than read about it? I'm struggling to understand this disgust with the show when the books, come on...the books....

Edited May 9, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Winnief]

Robert didn't want to bang Cersei, he wanted to bang Lyanna. Edmure was only cool banging Roslin when she turned out to be pretty. Was Roose really into banging Fat Walda? Did Jon Arryn enjoy sticking his dick in Lysa? Sure, I get that it's different for men, but really, Sansa was always destined for a political marriage and never destined for a love match. She was always going to lose her virginity out of duty. Even Arya was betrothed to some Frey.

 

Good points all.  I wonder, I just...wonder if the showrunners already know that Sansa's supposed to lose her virginity to "duty" in the books as well, (probably to HtH or LF) and it's not supposed to be exactly a great experience there either so they're transferring it to screen even if its a different character...but that ultimately whoever the guy that deflowers Sansa is he's not destined to be around much longer anyway.   

 

I mean I don't think D&D would have her losing her maidenhead on screen in any event if she got to keep it in the books because that would be a major plot point going forward that could affect her whole storyline you know?!? 

[Cheshrkat]

 

ETA: Is it just that much harder for us to see it on screen than read about it? I'm struggling to understand this disgust with the show when the books, come on...the books....

 

It's a fair point, but I do think there's a difference.  Replacing Sansa for Jeyne shouldn't make the situation more terrible to watch than it was to read, but while Jeyne is a tragic character in the book (there's almost no one I feel sorrier for, in a series of books in which I pity many characters), she's not a fully fledged POV in whom we are invested heavily.  Putting Sansa in her shoes does somehow make it worse, because there's more of a relationship between the reader/viewer and Sansa.

[BlackberryJam]

It's a fair point, but I do think there's a difference.  Replacing Sansa for Jeyne shouldn't make the situation more terrible to watch than it was to read, but while Jeyne is a tragic character in the book (there's almost no one I feel sorrier for, in a series of books in which I pity many characters), she's not a fully fledged POV in whom we are invested heavily.  Putting Sansa in her shoes does somehow make it worse, because there's more of a relationship between the reader/viewer and Sansa.

 

Which is exactly why D&D are making it Sansa. There is less emotional impact to watch a random character, say one of the Craster wives, get raped and tortured. Putting Sansa in the role makes narrative sense so that the viewer has that relationship. For me, the Jeyne Poole torture is all about Theon's story. So, this makes Theon's story and attempt at redemption all that more powerful. Sansa's Vale stuff is particularly boring and would require introducing another crapton of new and eventually unimportant characters. Putting Sansa in the Jeyne Poole role gives a main character a big story for a season when she would otherwise would need benched, draws in the viewer to the story and moves the glacial plot along. I can't be upset about that.

 

I especially can't be upset with D&D for replacing another throw away female character for which most viewers would feel nothing with a main character. Watching whatever happens to Sansa, and I think she's going to have to be an active participant or at least pretend to enjoy it, ala  Margaery and Joffrey with the crossbow, is all the more gripping and horrific. If there's going to be rape, and let's be real here the books are full of it, I'd rather have it happen to a character the viewer cares about so that there is that feeling of discomfort and disgust rather than another casual background rape quickly passed over.  D&D are just showing us the world Martin has created, but unlike reading a book where you can skip the icky bits, they aren't letting us forget how horrible it is.

[Skeeter22]

The problem I have with this, other than the show's issues with sexualized violence, is that it treats Sansa like an object to be plugged into a story so Theon's hero moment has more impact. What about Sansa's story and character development? She's a much bigger character in the books and the show. Why is she relegated to an object that Theon can emote over? The Jeyne Poole story is about Theon because she's an extremely minor character, Sansa is not.

It's also a little gross when you think about that D&D interview where they claimed they've been wanting Sansa is this storyline since season 2. This is what they were looking forward to?

[Danny Franks]

The difference is that none of those marriages you mention involved marrying an oft-abused character who was believed to be actually becoming stronger and more canny, off to a psychopathic sadist who is as fond of sexually tormenting people as he is of physically and emotionally tormenting them. Not only that, but he's going to force Theon, someone who Sansa has known since childhood, to watch as he "deflowers" her. And that's if the scene plays out without any of Ramsay's usually repugnant behaviour (which, let's face it, is unlikely).

 

If Sansa was marrying Harry the Heir, or some other lordling (who isn't Littlefinger) and we saw her wedding night, then I don't think there would be anything like the level of disgust that is likely to be engendered. She would be doing her duty, as this world would have it. But that isn't what's happening. It would be more on a par with Dany and Drogo, which was traumatic for her, and unpleasant to watch, but understandable and it felt necessary. This does not feel necessary to me.

 

As for the writers trying to make me feel worse about the storyline? Good job. I feel bad enough about it that I'm not going to watch the show any more. There are plenty of shows on that don't use sexual abuse as a crutch, incredible as that may seen to Benioff, Weiss and Martin.

[BlackberryJam]

Please then, Danny, don't watch if it makes you too uncomfortable. There are plenty of shows I don't watch because they make me uncomfortable, particularly sitcoms which seem designed to convince me that the IQ of the average person is 72 and they have the emotional intelligence of a fourth grader.

I think you're jumping the gun on Sansa though. I don't see anything about this story that wouldn't be moving her more towards actually showing an iota of agency, which she is barely even showing in the books at this point. Of the living Starks, my sympathy is most with Rickon and least with Sansa. She's enjoying those lemoncakes a little too much for me. And maybe because I'm not emotionally attached to her I'm not experiencing this pre-rage so many are.

But rape should be awful and horrific and uncomfortable and terrible to watch, and if that's too much for you, I understand and wish you the best.

[Danny Franks]

I've already said I won't watch, and I think you and the writers will have underestimated the reaction to this storyline, if it comes to pass. You see what happened with Joss Whedon because of his far less troubling writing of Natasha in The Avengers: Age of Ultron?

 

And yes, if the scene plays out as suggested, then it's about Theon, not Sansa. So one of the most traumatic events of Sansa's life is written in for the impact it has on... wait for it... a man. I'm starting to sound like Sylvia Plath, here! And I can't stand Sylvia Plath.

 

I suppose all that's acceptable for people who don't like her character, but it doesn't work for me. 

 

The only agency she'll ever get is through Littlefinger, who has seemingly replaced the Northern lords in this story. So one of the few things I liked about the last book has been removed, and replaced with more conniving from a character I have less than no interest in. The last thing I gave a shit about was Jon's story, but it looks like that's been butchered as well. I doubt he ever even learns that Sansa is in Winterfell, what with his running about north of the Wall again. He's going to get stabbed by Alliser and that kid, and then we're into full High Fantasy cliché (to the horror of those fans who claim GRRM never resorts to cliché?) with the death and rebirth of the prophesied saviour. Yawn.

[BlackberryJam]

No. Sorry. I don't watch movies related to comic books so I have no idea what you're talking about there. I have no interest comics. All I know about Joss Whedon is Veronica Mars, which sucked starting in the middle of Season 2. Is this a story worth googling?

It seems you're predicting the worst for every character, whereas I am thankful for the departures from the dullest parts of the source material. I didn't give a flip about the Vale lords, Dany's endless wanderings and Tyrion needed to shut the fuck up. I'm thrilled that crap is gone. Also, the IronSnore. The only thing that hasn't happened yet from the books that I am longing for is the death of that sucktacular douchebag, Balon Greyjoy.

Olly stabbing Jon would be narratively satisfying and I'm predicting that. Olly is a dreadful character and I hope he gets offed soon, but yep, he should be the one stabbing Jon.

[FurryFury]

I suppose all that's acceptable for people who don't like her character, but it doesn't work for me.

 

I don't like Sansa at all. I've always rooted for Arya in the beginning of GoT and I never really switched to rooting for Sansa as well. She's far from the character type I tend to enjoy.

 

That said, I would completely HATE IT if she were to be raped by Ramsey. First of all, I genuinely consider rape to be the worst crime, bar none. Torture is awful, murder is awful, but I CAN envision scenarios where they can be necessary, as terrible as they are. Rape can NEVER be excused or necessary. Moreover, unlike them, it's something that happens far too often in real world (I'm not saying murder and torture never happen, but they are far less common in the "first world" which is the intended audience of the show) and the level of distress caused by it to women - whether they were unfortunate enough to encounter something like that in their life or not - is extremely high (and hell, even if it's the latter, don't tell me that a women, no matter her culture, can live her life and NEVER have a thought about rape ever happening to her. Every time I'm in elevator with a man I don't know, subconsciously, I'm expecting an attack. Not because I'm paranoid or because I've had some experiences of this type, no - just because I'm a woman, and this is the reality for women). And then, there are two other factors:

 

- Sansa has had an extremely bad history of being victimized and threatened by men. Her father was probably the only prominent man she ever shared screentime with who never threatened her (well, and Loras, I suppose). I've cringed and feared for her during her scenes with LF, The Hound and now Ramsey. Dany is the only other character who also had a similar history, but her arc as far back as AGOT has been about reclaiming her agency, first by getting rid of Viserys and then getting the dragons and deciding to fight for her birthright. Even when she had to marry Hizdahr, it was explicitly her own choice.

 

- Ramsey is not Harry the Heir. He's a known sadist capable of unspeakable horrors. It is absolutely incomparable to Cat and Ned, because Ned wasn't a cartoonish monster. Neither were Jon Arryn or most other men in arranged marriage scenarios. For all we know, for them it was as uncomfortable as for their wives. Ramsey would absolutely revel in his power over Sansa unless something happens... 

but the spoilers say it doesn't and I'm absolutely disguested by that.

 

All I know about Joss Whedon is Veronica Mars, which sucked starting in the middle of Season 2. Is this a story worth googling?

 

Joss has almost nothing do with Veronica Mars other than a cameo in season 2. He is, however, a great writer (imho) and a known feminist who has written a lot of great female characters in his time, but he has a lot of criticism because of his writing of Black Widow in Age of Ultron. Which is somewhat of a letdown compared to her previous appearances, but is probably at least partly caused by the actress' pregnancy, as some theorize. the outcry nevertheless has been huge, which people accusing him of misogyny or whatnot.

Edited May 9, 2015 by FurryFury

[BlackberryJam]

Oh wait. Firefly. That's it. Firefly. Not just VM. Sorry.

As far as this Avengers thing, not interested. You know, I can Susan Faludi with the best of them, but poor treatment of a female character in fiction does not automatically mean misogyny. Maybe in that case it did, but I can't scare up a feeling for it. It's a just another of a million comic book movies. I am more offended by the offensive portrayal of female bodies in most comics than I am about anything else. I want to have my own war on boob tape, spanx and Louboutins.

I think most women live with that little bit of fear, walking to our cars at night, in elevators alone with a man, and don't get me started on gas stations.

Again, we know that about Ramsay. Sansa does not and it's equally possible that Sansa does not know Theon is watching and that Ramsay treats her as well as Ned treated Cat on their first night. I can fully see Ramsay ordering Theon to watch, silently, no matter what happens, and then do nothing awful, but have Theon watch in fear that he will.

Most of this is pre-rage and anticipation of the worst. I'm just not fussed about it. And I can always fastforward to the other bits if I find it too hard to watch. I mean, I certainly wouldn't have watched had it been Jeyne Poole and ...she had it a helluva lot worse that people are anticipating for Sansa.

[WearyTraveler]

I just don't want to make up my mind about this story until I see it.  I think they are consolidating several WF characters into Sansa, not just Jeyne Poole.  I think they will have her do some of the Manderly stuff, since it seems the Manderlys will not be making an appearance.  Given the previews with Myranda and Ramsay saying something along the lines of "you know how I feel about people who disobey me", I'm thinking it's possible Sansa, like Margaery with Joffrey, will pretend to enjoy, and even encourage, Ramsay punishing Myranda in the most horrible way, while at the same time conspiring to weaken the Bolton's position from the inside.

 

If it goes that way, I think it will make a good story.  In any case, I'll just wait and see before I decide if I like the changes or not.  I feel I can't make a decision on this based on spoilers that are incomplete.  When I see it on screen, I'll judge. Not before.

[Skeeter22]

I hate Jeyne's story completely. And I've seen plenty of comments about how Sansa is getting off easy if she doesn't go through the exact same torture Jeyne suffered. I don't think GRRM deserves any slack for that plot. It is absolutely vile and unnecessary. I remember commenting on Twop that I was glad Jeyne didn't exist so we wouldn't have to see that plot.

Either intentionally of unintentionally, D&D and GRRM somehow manage to cater to the grossest parts of the fanbase. There are plenty of fans who are salivating over the idea of Sansa being raped just like there are people who think Jeyne deserved what she got because she was mean to Arya. As if abuse and degradation are just punishments for one brat teasing another entitled brat.

[BlackberryJam]

I've not seen anyone salivating over the idea. I can see how it makes narrative sense and how it can be used to really impact the viewer. And I'm not bothered that it's Sansa and not another character. But I don't see anyone going "OH FUCK YEAH, ANOTHER RAPE! SWEET! BITCHES DESERVE IT!" Could you PM me and point me in the direction of that? I'm interested to know where you saw it, Skeeter. I have also never seen anyone say Jeyne deserved it. I've only seen a few posts ever anywhere that think even Cersei deserves the Walk.

[Shanna]

I suppose all that's acceptable for people who don't like her character, but it doesn't work for me.

Has absolutely nothing to do with liking Sansa for me. It took me years to stop hating Sansa and I'm not sure I ever stopped hating theon but I hate and despise theons story and don't want to see the same with Sansa.

For one, my aversion to Ramsey is so strong now that I could not even watch his scenes with theon last year.

For two, this is such a retread for Sansa. I don't want to see her in the exact same situation she was in before, but actually forced to go through with a marriage to a psychopath.

For three, it makes littlefinger look like an idiot.

For four, the nine thousand things already mentioned about Sansa agency being important. They have already cut many of my favorite things from this story, and I see no evidence they will add any of the others. Is their some reason they can't just make Ramsey one of the surprising deaths?

I didn't like reading about Jeyne either, but this wasn't a complete retread of her story, it was actually a theon story. I have had deep concerns about the potential of this story all season but if Sansa actually sleeps with Ramsey, and if he abuses her At All I am afraid I might end up breaking the tv.

[Danny Franks]

I hate Jeyne's story completely. And I've seen plenty of comments about how Sansa is getting off easy if she doesn't go through the exact same torture Jeyne suffered. I don't think GRRM deserves any slack for that plot. It is absolutely vile and unnecessary. I remember commenting on Twop that I was glad Jeyne didn't exist so we wouldn't have to see that plot.

Either intentionally of unintentionally, D&D and GRRM somehow manage to cater to the grossest parts of the fanbase. There are plenty of fans who are salivating over the idea of Sansa being raped just like there are people who think Jeyne deserved what she got because she was mean to Arya. As if abuse and degradation are just punishments for one brat teasing another entitled brat.

 

There is that as well. This series (books, more than the show, I'd say) seems to attract more than its usual fair share of nihilists and self-proclaimed sadists who bang on about how awesome characters like Littlefinger, Ramsay and Victarion are, because they don't take crap from people, and they take what they want, through whatever means they have (and these people do exist, on the Westeros boards, and other sites I've seen).

 

Perhaps the same people who have tried to turn Sandor Clegane into some kind of romantic hero, after he opined on how he wished he'd raped Sansa when he had the chance. 

 

ADWD concerned me for a number of reasons (not least the shoddy writing and plotting of much of it), but one of the more disconcerting things was the repeated trend of violence and abuse to women. Ramsay with Jeyne, Victarion with that woman he mutilated and the wife he murdered, Asha with that viking guy (though she actually enjoyed it, which raised a whole different issue). It felt like GRRM had gone off the deep end a little, for some reason.

 

I've said before that Ramsay and Victarion feel like GRRM had a bet with himself to see just how disgusting and depraved he could make a character and still get it published. For crying out loud, Ramsay forced Jeyne to have sex with his dogs. I just could not take the character seriously, because he isn't a character at all, just a collection of the creepiest Google search results you might find.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Danny Franks

[SeanC]

Good points all.  I wonder, I just...wonder if the showrunners already know that Sansa's supposed to lose her virginity to "duty" in the books as well, (probably to HtH or LF) and it's not supposed to be exactly a great experience there either so they're transferring it to screen even if its a different character...but that ultimately whoever the guy that deflowers Sansa is he's not destined to be around much longer anyway.   

 

I mean I don't think D&D would have her losing her maidenhead on screen in any event if she got to keep it in the books because that would be a major plot point going forward that could affect her whole storyline you know?!? 

The writers say they've been planning this since Season 2, which was well before they got significant details about the unpublished material.  I don't think considerations relating to Sansa's book story are relevant, since they were prepared to go completely off it before they even knew anything about it.

 

The impression I get, based on everything they've said, is that the starting point for this was that they thought that replacing Jeyne with Sansa would amp up that plot, and that considerations relating to Sansa's own arc were secondary, at best (though they're obviously spinning the latter).

[BlackberryJam]

They got significant details before the pilot. There is no way HBO bought the show without a decent roadmap to the end from GRRM. I think all along D&D have said they know the basic stories, if not the details, of all the major characters.

[SeanC]

They got significant details before the pilot. There is no way HBO bought the show without a decent roadmap to the end from GRRM. I think all along D&D have said they know the basic stories, if not the details, of all the major characters.

The main thing they knew in advance was the ultimate resolution, not really the plots going there.

[BlackberryJam]

Could you point me to that interview?  Thanks.

[Hecate7]

The difference is that none of those marriages you mention involved marrying an oft-abused character who was believed to be actually becoming stronger and more canny, off to a psychopathic sadist who is as fond of sexually tormenting people as he is of physically and emotionally tormenting them. Not only that, but he's going to force Theon, someone who Sansa has known since childhood, to watch as he "deflowers" her. And that's if the scene plays out without any of Ramsay's usually repugnant behaviour (which, let's face it, is unlikely).

 

If Sansa was marrying Harry the Heir, or some other lordling (who isn't Littlefinger) and we saw her wedding night, then I don't think there would be anything like the level of disgust that is likely to be engendered. She would be doing her duty, as this world would have it. But that isn't what's happening. It would be more on a par with Dany and Drogo, which was traumatic for her, and unpleasant to watch, but understandable and it felt necessary. This does not feel necessary to me.

 

As for the writers trying to make me feel worse about the storyline? Good job. I feel bad enough about it that I'm not going to watch the show any more. There are plenty of shows on that don't use sexual abuse as a crutch, incredible as that may seen to Benioff, Weiss and Martin.

 

We're not supposed to feel good about her storyline. And I don't know why people are piling it on so about Sansa being a "victim." As we have just been shown quite brilliantly in the story, the very best way to make someone a victim is to tell them not to be a victim any more, blame them for being a victim, and imply to them (or even outright tell them) that they have the power to change a situation they do not, in fact, have power to change.

 

Sansa is a woman in a medieval European world. She has the same level of autonomy Danaerys had in Season One. She's an orphaned noblewoman of marriageable age, whose nearest male relative WANTS something. Baelish has made himself her uncle, and frankly that should scare us more than him making Ramsey her husband.

 

The average woman in Westeros is doing it with a guy she is not the least bit interested in doing it with, and that, I'm afraid, is the history of Western Civilization. Occasionally a young couple with no dynastic issues or property at stake were allowed to marry, or a girl had the incredible good fortune to fall in love with the guy her Dad picked out for her, but not usually. Most couples were Jon & Lyssa.

 

If we're going to have Sansa get raped, then I want them to do it unambiguously. None of this, "well, it wasn't rape because she liked it later," or "it was consensual, you just couldn't tell" stuff. This is Ramsey Bolton we're talking about. I don't want to be told "he can be a nice guy when he wants to, he just didn't want to with those other people." I don't want to be told, "you can control your rapist/jailer/torturer by using your feminine wiles." If we're gonna do this, let's do this. Tell me, "If society is set up for women to be raped and treated like property, then women are dependent on either their own swords, or the power of their male relatives, to protect them from rape and worse." Tell me the truth, that there are men like Jon Snow or Tyrion, who wouldn't rape Sansa, and then there are all the other men in Westeros, and then there are the Ramsey Boltons. Tell me that the people who whisper, "don't be a victim," and then leave you to the mercy of the victimizer, are collaborating with the victimizer. Because that is something people should know.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Hecate7

[DigitalCount]

Did Sophie Turner characterize her story going forward as a 6/10?

What

[benteen]

Euron was the one who mutilated the Dusky Woman, Danny, not Victarion.  Now that Victarion is any better.

 

Littlefinger...TV Littlefinger is not Book Littlefinger.  Book Littlefinger would never make the mistakes that TV Littlefinger does, like throwing the twincest in Cersei's face or giving over a prized asset like someone he knew nothing about (which is unlikely) like Ramsay.  I actually agreed with the Westeros.org reviewer on that one.  He talked about how in Season 2 and 3, many viewers were convinced that Talisa was really a Lannister spy to justify her role on the show and the change in her storyline.  But she wasn't a Lannister spy.  Just like how we all try to convince ourselves that TV Littlefinger really is as smart as his book counterpart when in fact it's pretty clear that he's not.

 

I do share the concerns Ramsay and Sansa though.  I don't want to see her have to consummate her marriage with him but I could live with that instead of her getting the full Jeyne Poole treatment.    Theon's storyline was the best in ADWD and some of GRRM's best writing for the series.  What happens to Jeyne Poole was terrible and hard to read.  If they do adapt that, then you can't say D and D aren't adapting GRRM's work.  They are.  But they would have been the ones who decided to put Sansa in the Jeyne Poole role and given past performance (along with the disturbing and juvenile way they've handled these kinds of things in the past) I have no confidence in their ability to pull it off.

Not to mention, as pointed out, it would be repetitive to put Sansa in that position again and it would show that the character has less agency than ever.  And again, ultimately it would be about Theon.  It being about Theon was fine when it was Jeyne Poole but Sansa is another matter.

 

I'll wait and see how things pull out before making a final judgment.  I haven't read the spoilers but have a strong idea what they're about.  But like I said, I don't have faith in D and D to pull it off.

[SeanC]

Could you point me to that interview?  Thanks.

It's not a specific interview, more what I remember them saying in various places over the years.  They were asked how much they knew at various points, and they said they'd been told the ending, but that the real details didn't come until after season 3 (which you can really tell, in my opinion, from how the writing started to shift after that point).

 

We're not supposed to feel good about her storyline. And I don't know why people are piling it on so about Sansa being a "victim." As we have just been shown quite brilliantly in the story, the very best way to make someone a victim is to tell them not to be a victim any more, blame them for being a victim, and imply to them (or even outright tell them) that they have the power to change a situation they do not, in fact, have power to change.

 

Sansa is a woman in a medieval European world. She has the same level of autonomy Danaerys had in Season One. She's an orphaned noblewoman of marriageable age, whose nearest male relative WANTS something. Baelish has made himself her uncle, and frankly that should scare us more than him making Ramsey her husband.

That's the thing, though, we're evidently meant to take Littlefinger at face value, as the writers and actors certainly seem to.  And Sansa did have autonomy, when she revealed herself to the Vale lords and got some measure of security from them, independent of Baelish -- which she then immediately gave up in season 5, without any reason other than the plot required it.

[Hecate7]

She said her name and gave up a disguise that wasn't fooling anyone to begin with. How is that autonomy? What measure of security did she get from them independent of Baelish, exactly? She came up with an idea to save his bacon and went with it, and since then she's just done whatever he told her to do.

 

The Vale lords said they wouldn't tell, but we only have their word for that. For all we know they went straight to Cersei, and Cersei now knows exactly where Sansa is, who she's traveling with, and what she currently looks like. (Not that the dyejob is such a great disguise that anyone who's ever seen her once couldn't identify her anyway). I don't really see any difference between Sansa now, and Sansa when she was plotting her escape with Dontos.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Hecate7