Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Winnief]

LOL!  But seriously the books have been hinting for a long time now that there's some kind of secret buried in the crypts.  I don't know if it's coming out in Season Five, but it is coming.

[WearyTraveler]

The only thing that's coming is winter (he, he!)

 

I'm leaning toward Sansa having the Manderly role and I think it might not be a big deviation from her final destiny in the books.  Maybe in the books Lady Stoneheart somehow finds out that Sansa is in the Vale and sends Brienne there to get her to Winterfell and that's why we'll see her going there on the show.

[Winnief]

I'm leaning toward Sansa having the Manderly role and I think it might not be a big deviation from her final destiny in the books.  Maybe in the books Lady Stoneheart somehow finds out that Sansa is in the Vale and sends Brienne there to get her to Winterfell and that's why we'll see her going there on the show.

 

 

Possibly.  I do think one way or another Jaime/Brienne were always destined to go up North together and get involved in the White Walker issue at some point.  D&D may have just decided to skip the detour with LSH along the way. 

 

Personally, I for one can't WAIT to see Jaime's reaction when he learns

 

a. What's been happening at the Wall

b. The truth about Jon.

The latter is going to blow his mind, knowing he and the whole Royal Court were within sight of Jon but never  a whiff of suspicion about the kind of atomic warhead Ned kept hidden all those years, but the former...I think Jaime may actually find a purpose he can believe in through this battle, but at the same time he'll be cursing the fact that he had no notion of what was happening until after he lost his hand and so late in the game.  "My gods, we've been fighting the wrong war all this time!"  It's also something that Brienne can devote herself to heart and soul as well. 

 

It also occurs to me that one character who might not survive the season is Asha/Yara-depending on how much of a storyline she was destined to play in TWoW, then D&D might just kill her off sooner...and for that matter it's entirely possible that after his redeeming act, Theon may finally get the death he hopes for as a sacrifice for the greater good. 

[AshleyN]

I will say, that while I fully support the idea of Sansa playing a Manderly-type role, I really, really hope that the show's version of the whole North Remembers/rebellion against the Boltons storyline doesn't amount to a Littlefinger scheme. I get, and generally support, their efforts to streamline things, but that would be kind of missing the point of that storyline to me, which is to demonstrate the love and loyalty the majority of Northerners have for House Stark, and Ned in particular. It also does a nice job of emphasizing that the Red Wedding went beyond just Robb and Catelyn, as I believe that there's a line in there somewhere about how just about every family in the North lost someone there. They all want the Boltons and Freys to fry. Then again, the show has really dropped the ball so far when it comes to dealing with the fallout of the Red Wedding, so maybe I shouldn't expect anything on that front.

 

Still, even though I don't believe there's been any news of it, I'm going to hold out hope that we'll at least get some version of the mountain clans, or Stannis recruiting Northerners. Bonus points if it includes this: 

 

Lord Peasebury turned against the northmen. “This march was madness. More dying every day, and for what? Some girl?”

 

“Ned’s girl,” said Morgan Liddle.

 

“Ned’s girl,” echoed Big Bucket Wull.

 

...

 

"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

Edited March 12, 2015 by AshleyN

[Holmbo]

I think it's too soon to count out LSH from the show yet. She hasn't really done anything but set up yet in the book. They could save that to season 6 which would give jaime time to return from dorne. I think at the end of this season we'll know for soon if she's been cut, based on what jaime and brienne are up to at that point.

[Advance35]

I can't picture Sansa taking on the Manderly role.   Certainly not the Pie portion.  I think Sansa is going to see and DO some pretty cold-blooded things in the future but I think it will be detached scheming, nothing so hands-on gruesome as what Manderly did.

 

I said this in the speculation thread but I see Sansa/Alayne sowing discord between EVERYONE. Roose/Ramsay, Ramsay/Myranda and even on a bigger scale and maybe with LF's help House Bolton/House Frey.

 

I think LF/Alayne are poised to really exert a lot of influence over 3 regions of the Seven Kingdoms. The Vale, The North (if they manage to do to the Boltons what the Tyrells did to the Lannisters) and The Riverlands (if they start to manuever for the fall of House Frey which would be likely if they manage to turn the Boltons against the Throne.

 

I'm curious to see how Stannis will factor into the plans of LF and Sansa.

[Winnief]

I said this in the speculation thread but I see Sansa/Alayne sowing discord between EVERYONE. Roose/Ramsay, Ramsay/Myranda and even on a bigger scale and maybe with LF's help House Bolton/House Frey.

 

 

I really like that notion, and I agree it does seem more in character than Frey Pie.  Not that I still don't hope we get to see Frey Pie...just that Sansa wasn't the one behind that deal. 

[Holmbo]

I too like your speculation Advance. It would be great if we see Sansa learning to play the game by manipulating the different houses to distrust each other. Your thought about a betrothal between her and Ramsay might happen. Though somehow it will all backfire and Theon will have to save her.

I feel like i should stop speculating now otherwise I'll come to too specific conclusions on how i wasn't this story line to go and get disappointed.

[WearyTraveler]

Ok, so maybe she takes on bits of Mance and Manderly's roles.

Edited March 12, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Hecate7]

She is still female in a medieval world.

[WearyTraveler]

She is still female in a medieval world.

I don't think that would be a problem.  Although females draw the short end of the stick most of the time in this world, we have some women with agency such as the Mormont women.

 

Sansa is coming to Winterfell, presumably with knights and fighters from the Vale.  She can instruct them to kill Bolton men and spur the legend of the ghost of Winterfell just as easily as Mance and his women did.  She doesn't really have to do things herself, she can have others do them for her.

Edited March 13, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Hecate7]

I don't think that would be a problem.  Although females draw the short end of the stick most of the time in this world, we have some women with agency such as the Mormont women.

 

Sansa is coming to Winterfell, presumably with knights and fighters from the Vale.  She can instruct them to kill Bolton men and spur the legend of the ghost of Winterfell just as easily as Mance and his women did.  She doesn't really have to do things herself, she can have others do them for her.

 

So, she'll be using her good looks, sexuality, and defunct family clout to make men serve her. Hmmm....so now we'll have Danaerys, who trades on her beauty and family name, Cersei, who trades on her beauty and family name, and Sansa, too, trading on her beauty and her family name? Not sure that's how the North works, but OK.

 

I think I'd almost rather see Sansa be fake Arya. At least that won't involve massive white-washing of the Boltons and/or Sansa magically romancing the sadists into being good guys. They will not be eager to hand over Winterfell to her, either. If she won't marry Ramsey, then she will have to fight him. I'm not sure she can actually beat him at this point in the story. She might have the Vale behind her, but she'll be fighting the Boltons, Karstarks, Riverlands, and of course the Lannisters. There's also the little detail that she can't make a grab for Winterfell as Sansa Stark, without someone kidnapping her and taking her to face trial and probable execution in King's Landing. Moreover Alayne has no right to Winterfell whatsoever. 

[Constantinople]

So, she'll be using her good looks, sexuality, and defunct family clout to make men serve her. Hmmm....so now we'll have Danaerys, who trades on her beauty and family name, Cersei, who trades on her beauty and family name, and Sansa, too, trading on her beauty and her family name? Not sure that's how the North works, but OK.

You left out Margaery.

Which is why I'm not mourning the loss of Arianne, at least apparently from this season (don't know if it's permanent).

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Holmbo]

Who talked about making sadist be good guys? She manipulated joffrey in season 2. And even though these guys are just as evil as him they are more rational and are going to do things based on what benefits them.

[WearyTraveler]

So, she'll be using her good looks, sexuality, and defunct family clout to make men serve her. Hmmm....so now we'll have Danaerys, who trades on her beauty and family name, Cersei, who trades on her beauty and family name, and Sansa, too, trading on her beauty and her family name? Not sure that's how the North works, but OK.

 

I think I'd almost rather see Sansa be fake Arya. At least that won't involve massive white-washing of the Boltons and/or Sansa magically romancing the sadists into being good guys. They will not be eager to hand over Winterfell to her, either. If she won't marry Ramsey, then she will have to fight him. I'm not sure she can actually beat him at this point in the story. She might have the Vale behind her, but she'll be fighting the Boltons, Karstarks, Riverlands, and of course the Lannisters. There's also the little detail that she can't make a grab for Winterfell as Sansa Stark, without someone kidnapping her and taking her to face trial and probable execution in King's Landing. Moreover Alayne has no right to Winterfell whatsoever. 

 

I never said she would use her sexuality.  I just said she might instruct the soldiers she has to act a certain way; for that matter, Littlefinger could be the one giving the orders.  They could show up there pretending to be on the Bolton's side, to lend their support, while behind their backs they kill Bolton soldiers and incite the birth of the "ghost of Winterfell".  Sansa doesn't have to reveal her identity; she could work with Littlefinger, fully in on the plan, and perhaps contributing to strategies for the execution of said plan.  She can tell LF where the secret passages are, she could reveal her identity to the servants that are still loyal to her family and have them work for her too.

 

She can reveal to a select few that Fake Arya is not Arya at all, and since Bran is confirmed to not be in this season, she could be the catalyst to Theon's redemption (instead of Theon hearing Bran's voice in the forest).

 

We know that in the books the Boltons get sabotaged from within.  This is necessary to weaken the Boltons before the Battle of Winterfell.  It seems to me that in the books, the Boltons' descent has started, they are losing Freys to Manderly's pies and Manderly's men and they are losing their own men and resources  to the harshness of Winter, the lack of food, Ramsey's cruelty, and the "ghost of Winterfell" (this last one affects morale).

The show will have to do something to weaken the Boltons as well, but they have not cast the role of Manderly, and the storyline at the Wall is significantly behind that of the situation at Winterfell, which means that perhaps Mance doesn't make it down there to wreack havoc in the Bolton lines.  So, it makes sense, to me, that they would use Sansa as a vehicle to get some of these things done.

[Avaleigh]

I'm on the fence about Sansa being assigned to Stoneheart and/or Manderly's role.

I like the idea of her gaining power but I guess I'm resistant to the idea of Sansa becoming a prettier version of Stoneheart where she's just mindlessly killing people because they have a certain last name. I also feel like I'd be unlikely to cheer on Sansa going full cannibal on us.

I cheered on Joffrey's death like most people but I can't say that I wanted Sansa or Tyrion to make a pie out of him. I want Ramsay to die a horrible Vargo Hoat style death but I don't really know that I want or need to see Theon eating him in order to feel satisfied.

[Hecate7]

Who talked about making sadist be good guys? She manipulated joffrey in season 2. And even though these guys are just as evil as him they are more rational and are going to do things based on what benefits them.

 

Sansa isn't going to ask them to do things that benefit them. She has literally nothing to offer them.

[WearyTraveler]

I'm on the fence about Sansa being assigned to Stoneheart and/or Manderly's role.

I like the idea of her gaining power but I guess I'm resistant to the idea of Sansa becoming a prettier version of Stoneheart where she's just mindlessly killing people because they have a certain last name. I also feel like I'd be unlikely to cheer on Sansa going full cannibal on us.

I cheered on Joffrey's death like most people but I can't say that I wanted Sansa or Tyrion to make a pie out of him. I want Ramsay to die a horrible Vargo Hoat style death but I don't really know that I want or need to see Theon eating him in order to feel satisfied.

 

Well, Manderly's role in the books goes beyond Frey pies (he only made pies out of two Freys, IIRC), but I can see how people mostly remember that because it's such a powerful image.  Manderly was sabotaging the Boltons and the Freys in other ways too; and I think that's the part of the role that Sansa might play.  

 

I know this is HBO and all, but I don't think they'll have any of the "good" guys resorting to cannibalism.

[Avaleigh]

Well, Manderly's role in the books goes beyond Frey pies (he only made pies out of two Freys, IIRC), but I can see how people mostly remember that because it's such a powerful image.  Manderly was sabotaging the Boltons and the Freys in other ways too; and I think that's the part of the role that Sansa might play.  

 

I know this is HBO and all, but I don't think they'll have any of the "good" guys resorting to cannibalism.

I'm pretty sure there were three pies. I can't remember which Freys got axed though, they're all basically interchangeable to me save Lord Walder and the young Freys who are hanging out at Winterfell (I think) Big and Little Walder. I vaguely remember some not-particularly-asshole-ish Frey maybe pissing his pants before he was strung up by Lady Stoneheart but it's all too unclear in my mind to say for sure.

 

I know I've said it dozens of times but I'd really like to reread these books someday. That being said---

 

Is there anyone here who is interested in doing an official reread of the series via PTV?* I ask because I think I would be willing to reread the books again if anyone else here was interested in doing it too. It doesn't have to be people who've only read the books once or twice just anyone who feels like they need a bit of a refresher. I've jumbled so many things together at this point that it's getting harder for me to remember certain things that happened only in the books or only in the show and I'd like to still be able to keep them separate in my mind as much as possible. I'd also just like to get the impressions of the regulars here since I enjoy reading all of your opinions whether we agree or disagree. 

 

*Would that even be allowed here? I know the emphasis is for the show but if a reread project were confined to one thread or even the books only thread I think it could work.

 

OTOH I might be the only one interested in doing this so I guess I'll see if anyone else wants to weigh in. 

[benteen]

I can't imagine the show passing up something like Frey pie.  Then again, I was surprised when D and D passed up their the scene where their favorite character Tyrion sat on the Iron Thrones (the scene itself was on the show but the setting was changed to the Small Council meeting room).

 

I'd be alright with Sansa taking the Manderly role and I like the idea of the Starks being more directed involved in events.  If Sansa is taking the Manderly role, I would assume that Rickon and Osha are really hiding out at Last Hearth with the Umbers and she wouldn't have to send anyone to Skagos.  Seeing Cannibal Island onscreen might be fun (and should be interesting in the next book) but that whole storyline is nothing more than a naked attempt at more world-building by GRRM.

[Holmbo]

I would be interested in participating in a reread. I don't really need it as I've listened several times through a podcast which covers the book in the offseason of the show (i did a lot of monotonous drawing on computer for courses so i needed content to put in my ears). But it would be a lot of fun to see peoples opinion of each chapter and share my own. I don't imagine the mods would disagree. It's not like they have to do spoiler moderation for it.

[WearyTraveler]

I'd be interested in a re-read too.  However, I must confess that I'm a greedy reader, and I find it hard to stop at an agreed point.  I've read the books twice, both times in the space of one week, so, full disclosure, if we start a re-read I might just run ahead and then lose my interest to post, but I'll give it a try if you guys want.

[Maximum Taco]

I'll try to do a reread, but I also tried to keep up with the book club we had on the old TWOP board. Real life just kept butting it's stupid head in. Stupid real life.

[Meredith Quill]

I'm pretty sure there were three pies. I can't remember which Freys got axed though, they're all basically interchangeable to me save Lord Walder and the young Freys who are hanging out at Winterfell (I think) Big and Little Walder. I vaguely remember some not-particularly-asshole-ish Frey maybe pissing his pants before he was strung up by Lady Stoneheart but it's all too unclear in my mind to say for sure.

 

I know I've said it dozens of times but I'd really like to reread these books someday. That being said---

 

Is there anyone here who is interested in doing an official reread of the series via PTV?* I ask because I think I would be willing to reread the books again if anyone else here was interested in doing it too. It doesn't have to be people who've only read the books once or twice just anyone who feels like they need a bit of a refresher. I've jumbled so many things together at this point that it's getting harder for me to remember certain things that happened only in the books or only in the show and I'd like to still be able to keep them separate in my mind as much as possible. I'd also just like to get the impressions of the regulars here since I enjoy reading all of your opinions whether we agree or disagree. 

 

*Would that even be allowed here? I know the emphasis is for the show but if a reread project were confined to one thread or even the books only thread I think it could work.

 

OTOH I might be the only one interested in doing this so I guess I'll see if anyone else wants to weigh in. 

 

Yes that's fine if you wanted to use the book only topic for that purpose.

[Avaleigh]

I'd be interested in a re-read too.  However, I must confess that I'm a greedy reader, and I find it hard to stop at an agreed point.  I've read the books twice, both times in the space of one week, so, full disclosure, if we start a re-read I might just run ahead and then lose my interest to post, but I'll give it a try if you guys want.

For those who are interested, what do you guys think about pacing? A chapter a day seems like it could be a bit much for some but that also means it would take us some two and a half months to get through the first book. I can't tell if that seems too slow or not. I'm also keeping in mind the fact that we'll all be posting about the show for all of April, May, and half of June. Maybe would could increase the number of chapters after this year's season finale?

 

I think I could manage doing a recaplet of each chapter in order to give us a kind of marker/starting point for each chapter within the thread. (Or if anyone else is interested maybe we could alternate doing recaplets every other week?) Maybe recaplets could be posted on Tuesdays and Thursdays? 

 

I'm down to start sometime this week I just want to get a better sense of what sort of pacing would appeal to those interested before I post a recaplet for the prologue of AGoT. Also, what day/s make the most sense to people? I figure Sunday/Monday is probably out since most people post in and try to read through the episode threads on those days. 

[Holmbo]

I kinda feel like it would be best to have a separate folder for book rereading the way there are for each previous season and in there have a thread either for each chapter or each recaplet. Maybe I'm overestimating what's going to be said about each chapter but I'm jus imagining it getting very messy if one topic keeps going for a week while the new chapter recap has started in the same thread. It depends on what the site runners feel too though.

As for amount of chapters I've no idea what is appropriate pace.

[Winnief]

Actually one of my favorite sites racefortheironthrone.com has been doing chapter by chapter analysis that looks at everything from character arcs, thematic significance, historical parallels, the what if section, and comparisons of book vs show.  Its truly great the only problem is you have to wait so long between chapters!

 

So far we're almost halfway through a Clash Of Kings.

[WearyTraveler]

I kinda feel like it would be best to have a separate folder for book rereading the way there are for each previous season and in there have a thread either for each chapter or each recaplet. Maybe I'm overestimating what's going to be said about each chapter but I'm jus imagining it getting very messy if one topic keeps going for a week while the new chapter recap has started in the same thread. It depends on what the site runners feel too though.

As for amount of chapters I've no idea what is appropriate pace.

 

I think a thread by chapter might be too much.  Perhaps we should try a thread per book.  If we stick to one chapter a week, I think we might avoid discussion overlap.  We can always ask whoever is posting to try to keep the discussion on the current chapter.

[Haleth]

I haven't read this topic for a while but now that season 5 is on the horizon I'm trying to catch up.

 

About Sansa's role at Winterfell, it does seem that D&D intend for her to be a combination of Manderly, (maybe) Jayne Poole, and (maybe) LSH (dang it!).  Surely there will be people (servants) who would recognize her despite her clever disguise, which could work in her favor or get her killed.  If she is asking for a surreptitious thinning of the Frey herd, servants may take it upon themselves to hide the bodies between flaky crusts.  I think it makes more sense in the show for Theon to try to rescue Fake Arya if she is Sansa rather than another character we haven't seen or can't remember, but would Sansa want to be rescued if she is getting her revenge?  Then again it would be too easy for someone to slip up or betray Sansa by revealing to the Boltons who she really is.  Whatever happens, it makes Sansa a more interesting character than the book Sansa who is relegated to being surrogate mom to Robyn Arryn.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Haleth

[Hecate7]

My misgiving comes from the fact that Sansa does not have soldiers. Littlefinger does. As his niece, she has absolutely nothing and no power at all, that doesn't come from him. In the books they leave the castle ostensibly to head for Harry the Heir. It's a mistake to make Sansa Fake Arya, because Fake Arya is a foil to real Arya and to Sansa, but the show runners are probably getting impatient and want to streamline as much as possible. There is a reason GRRM didn't use either of the Stark girls in that story.

[Advance35]

http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2015/03/lots-of-new-images-from-game-of-thrones-season-5.html

 

These are some additional Season 5 Photos, additional pictures of Cersei, Margaery and Cousins?, Jamie, Sansa and LF and others.   I notice Sansa is traveling by litter and in a different photo she and Littlefinger seem to be keeping company with Bronze Yon Royce.   Ya, I'm thinking LF is going to plot to try and consolidate what remains of the North with the Vale in a rebellion against The weakened Lannister/Tyrell regimes.   I smell Ramsay/Alayne.

 

This is the 2nd time I've seen Cersei in the Sept of Baelor for the upcoming season, did she have this much time in the sept in AFFC?  Before everything hit the fan I mean.   Not that I'm complaining because I absolutely love the set design.

[ElizaD]

This 5x08 information about the Watch/wildling plot was originally posted in WOTW comments a couple of weeks back, IIRC, but since there was no verification of the poster's sources I thought it was probably trolling or wishful thinking. Now I've seen speculation that some trailer shots might be from this episode, so I'm posting the quote in case it does turn out to be true.

 

Tormund will die this season. Rattleshirt is selling slaves at Hardhome. Tormund is pissed and begs Jon to let him go take care of it. Jon thinks as LC he should tag along and does. At Hardhome a fight ensues. During the fight, the Nights King shows up and starts reanimating the dead, especially those falling over the side of a cliff. Everyone panics and starts to flee, chaos everywhere. They charge at Jon who is left alone. Tormund refuses to flee and pounces on the Wights and throws Jon to the floor, protecting him. He fights off like 20 Wights trying to get at Jon before dying. They are giving Tormund a heroic death on the show, protecting Jon Snow. Before dying he tells Jon Snow to leave, get to the boats. Theres a fire torch near by. In his final act Tormund sets himself and the other Wights nearby on fire, so he cant be brought back. Final shot of 508 is the eyes of the Nights King meeting the eyes of Jon Snow.

 

IMO, after five books it's annoying

how little the zombie apocalypse continues to matter compared to the game played by petty nobles

, so this sounds like a good change to me.

 

Personally, I for one can't WAIT to see Jaime's reaction when he learns

 

a. What's been happening at the Wall

b. The truth about Jon.

The latter is going to blow his mind, knowing he and the whole Royal Court were within sight of Jon but never  a whiff of suspicion about the kind of atomic warhead Ned kept hidden all those years

 

The series is so full of truth-bombs that were never dropped in the lifetime of the people they'd have the greatest impact on that I really hope there's at least one big non-Stark reaction to the 99% likelihood of R+L=J. It's a delicious bit of irony that honest Ned did a far better job than Jaime and Cersei at concealing a royal bastard's real parentage.

[WearyTraveler]

That final shot bit sounds interesting. I too hope it's true!

[Hecate7]

http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2015/03/lots-of-new-images-from-game-of-thrones-season-5.html

 

These are some additional Season 5 Photos, additional pictures of Cersei, Margaery and Cousins?, Jamie, Sansa and LF and others.   I notice Sansa is traveling by litter and in a different photo she and Littlefinger seem to be keeping company with Bronze Yon Royce.   Ya, I'm thinking LF is going to plot to try and consolidate what remains of the North with the Vale in a rebellion against The weakened Lannister/Tyrell regimes.   I smell Ramsay/Alayne.

 

This is the 2nd time I've seen Cersei in the Sept of Baelor for the upcoming season, did she have this much time in the sept in AFFC?  Before everything hit the fan I mean.   Not that I'm complaining because I absolutely love the set design.

 

 

I don't. I smell Ramsay Littlefinger. and I'm not sure that's a very good smell.

[Winnief]

The series is so full of truth-bombs that were never dropped in the lifetime of the people they'd have the greatest impact on that I really hope there's at least one big non-Stark reaction to the 99% likelihood of R+L=J. It's a delicious bit of irony that honest Ned did a far better job than Jaime and Cersei at concealing a royal bastard's real parentage.

 

 

I know!  Not even Tyrion came close to the truth on that one despite spending quite a bit of time with Jon.  Which is another thing-the Unsullied not only believe falsely that Ned broke his vows...but since they don't know what Ned was protecting all those years they can't fully understand a lot of his decisions, like his refusal to discuss Jon's mother, his letting Jon go to the Wall, his anger about the plot to kill Dany, etc. etc. ...or realize that the supposedly 'stupid' Ned was able to keep the biggest secret of all in Westeros.  That piece of info to my mind goes a long way towards redeeming Ned and his legacy.

 

  I don't know whether I'm more annoyed that Cat and Robb never learned the truth, (Cat-you seriously wronged both your husband and 'step-son' all those years,) or that Tywin never did.  I could totally see Tywin, in the wake of that revelation, sitting all three of his kids down for a good old-fashioned bitch slapping about how they could possibly have missed *that* one when it was in front of their faces.

 

"All right, so Ned Stark the man least likely to play around in all Seven Kingdoms supposedly has a bastard he conceived during the war.  But no one seems to know who this bastard's mother was. But hey everyone's sure the boy is Ned's because he looks like a Stark-like Lyanna Stark in fact!  Ned's sister who was kidnapped or ran away with Rhaegar freaking Targaryen! And the boy must have been born around the same time that Ned's sister died under circumstances that were never fully explained but right afterward Ned turned up with a newborn he identified as 'his blood' and took home with him....oh no none of that was suspicious at all!  I completely why you IDIOTS NEVER ONCE EVEN WONDERED ABOUT ANY OF IT!!!"

 

...of course that might not have been as good as Tywin's reaction to dragons and/or White Walkers.  I really REALLY need to see how the players react to those tsunami tides once they hit!!!

 

Anyway, I'm hoping that even if we don't get the Big Reveal *this* season, we will definitely be getting some set-up, (in fact we already have with the way Mel was eyeing Jon during the funeral pyres,) and I'm PUMPED for the Unsullied's reaction to it.  And it will definitely happen no later than the beginning of Season 6-though I kinda hope it *does* happen this season.  Yeah, it will be jumping the books, but it's been nearly twenty freaking years!!! It's time we got that ball rolling there people and the end of Season Five is a great time to do it, to let that game changer play out in the last two seasons.

 

And I for one will be very, VERY happy if they go farther with the White Walker threat on the show, (they already have kinda with the ending of Oathkeeper,) because in the books it's all been leading to, but not much has really happened yet, and I'm glad that D&D are goosing that plot along a bit.  I predict Mega-Battles in Seasons 6&7.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Winnief

[SeanC]

(Cat-you seriously wronged both your husband and 'step-son' all those years,)

You can't wrong someone when you're acting on information they gave you.

[Hecate7]

She never wronged Ned. She never blamed him for the supposed affair. But she DID wrong Jon Snow, because even if he had been Ned's bastard through an affair, (which of course he wasn't), it wouldn't have been his fault and he never deserved the way she treated him.

[Avaleigh]

She never wronged Ned. She never blamed him for the supposed affair. But she DID wrong Jon Snow, because even if he had been Ned's bastard through an affair, (which of course he wasn't), it wouldn't have been his fault and he never deserved the way she treated him.

This. 

 

I think that Catelyn should have been able to cut a baby some freaking slack. Yes, yes, I know the 'these were the times' argument since the inspiration is supposed to be medieval and all that. That excuse isn't good enough for me personally. When the best thing that can be said about Catelyn here with regard to Jon is that "Cersei would have been worse!" I think it's fair to say that Catelyn could have handled the situation a bit better. 

 

It's one thing to be pissed off with Ned, fine, he was lying to her and disrespecting her but to consistently make Jon feel like a dark cloud and burden on her otherwise perfect world makes it difficult for me to sympathize with her. Her attitude towards him left a mark on the entire household and all of his siblings felt it. It was unfortunate and what's more Catelyn was still spiteful towards Jon even after he removed himself as a threat. He's at the Wall and it still isn't good enough for her. Short of Jon killing himself or permanently leaving Westeros I honestly don't know what would have satisfied her. 

[Winnief]

Ok, maybe I was inaccurate to say Cat 'wronged' Ned, but I stand by my assertion that she was unfair to Jon-I understand where her behavior was coming from, I really do, but I can't condone it. 

 

I do feel that other characters, and a lot of the Unsullied are too harsh on Ned for his supposed adultery though.   

[Constantinople]

Which is another thing-the Unsullied not only believe falsely that Ned broke his vows...but since they don't know what Ned was protecting all those years they can't fully understand a lot of his decisions, like his refusal to discuss Jon's mother, his letting Jon go to the Wall, his anger about the plot to kill Dany, etc. etc. ...or realize that the supposedly 'stupid' Ned was able to keep the biggest secret of all in Westeros.  That piece of info to my mind goes a long way towards redeeming Ned and his legacy.

I wouldn't say the Unsullied universally think that about Ned (not that I go to the Unsullied forum anymore).

I didn't read the books until after Season 4, and there's plenty in the show to suggest thinks aren't what they seem. Some things I remember from the show

* In the first couple of episodes of Season 1, whenever Robert went on a tear about Rhaegar or Lyanna, or both, Ned was always curiously silent or non-committal about the man who allegedly raped his sister.

* When Jon Snow & Ned parted ways, Ned said that Jon didn't share Ned's name, but did shared his blood. Ned specifically did not call Jon his son. If Jon isn't Ned's son, but shares Ned's blood, who's son is Ned's?

* Ned had no personal animosity towards Barristan Selmy, though Selmy stayed with Rhaegar till the end. Yeah, Kingsugard and all that, but honestly how would you feel about someone loyally served your sister's alleged rapist.

* In Season 3, Barristan Selmy told Daenerys that Rhaegar was the finest man Selmy ever met. That's an odd way to describe a rapist, particularly the rapist of the daughter of one of the High Lord's of Westeros.

* In Season 4, Oberyn Martel described Rhaegar and Lyanna in a way that suggested that Lyanna wasn't abducted but voluntarily went with Rhaegar. Oberyn's not the most unbiased source, but then, neither is Robert.

There are probably other scenes in the show that make one pause, but I don't recall them offhand.

So I wouldn't be surprised if some Unsullied were wondering about R, L & J. In fact, I thought at the old TWoP thread, some were.

[Hecate7]

I wouldn't say the Unsullied universally think that about Ned (not that I go to the Unsullied forum anymore).

I didn't read the books until after Season 4, and there's plenty in the show to suggest thinks aren't what they seem. Some things I remember from the show

* In the first couple of episodes of Season 1, whenever Robert went on a tear about Rhaegar or Lyanna, or both, Ned was always curiously silent or non-committal about the man who allegedly raped his sister.

* When Jon Snow & Ned parted ways, Ned said that Jon didn't share Ned's name, but did shared his blood. Ned specifically did not call Jon his son. If Jon isn't Ned's son, but shares Ned's blood, who's son is Ned's?

* Ned had no personal animosity towards Barristan Selmy, though Selmy stayed with Rhaegar till the end. Yeah, Kingsugard and all that, but honestly how would you feel about someone loyally served your sister's alleged rapist.

* In Season 3, Barristan Selmy told Daenerys that Rhaegar was the finest man Selmy ever met. That's an odd way to describe a rapist, particularly the rapist of the daughter of one of the High Lord's of Westeros.

* In Season 4, Oberyn Martel described Rhaegar and Lyanna in a way that suggested that Lyanna wasn't abducted but voluntarily went with Rhaegar. Oberyn's not the most unbiased source, but then, neither is Robert.

There are probably other scenes in the show that make one pause, but I don't recall them offhand.

So I wouldn't be surprised if some Unsullied were wondering about R, L & J. In fact, I thought at the old TWoP thread, some were.

 

 

I have two Unsullied friends who went straight to R+L=J during the first crypt scene in Episode 1, Season 1. As soon as they knew there was a dead sister, two of my friends who saw it separately, uninfluenced by me, popped out with that guess. So yes, quite a few of them are probably speculating about it. I have a few other Unsullied friends who started speculating an episode later.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Hecate7

[Constantinople]

She never wronged Ned. She never blamed him for the supposed affair. But she DID wrong Jon Snow, because even if he had been Ned's bastard through an affair, (which of course he wasn't), it wouldn't have been his fault and he never deserved the way she treated him.

 

 

I think that Catelyn should have been able to cut a baby some freaking slack. Yes, yes, I know the 'these were the times' argument since the inspiration is supposed to be medieval and all that. That excuse isn't good enough for me personally. When the best thing that can be said about Catelyn here with regard to Jon is that "Cersei would have been worse!" I think it's fair to say that Catelyn could have handled the situation a bit better. 

 

It's one thing to be pissed off with Ned, fine, he was lying to her and disrespecting her but to consistently make Jon feel like a dark cloud and burden on her otherwise perfect world makes it difficult for me to sympathize with her. Her attitude towards him left a mark on the entire household and all of his siblings felt it. It was unfortunate and what's more Catelyn was still spiteful towards Jon even after he removed himself as a threat. He's at the Wall and it still isn't good enough for her. Short of Jon killing himself or permanently leaving Westeros I honestly don't know what would have satisfied her.

 

 

Ok, maybe I was inaccurate to say Cat 'wronged' Ned, but I stand by my assertion that she was unfair to Jon-I understand where her behavior was coming from, I really do, but I can't condone it.

And yet, if Catelyn had been motherly and affectionate with Jon, and treated him as one of her own, as a blessing from the Seven and blah, blah, blah....Jon might very well have died at the Red Wedding with all the rest of them.

So thanks Cat, for being a bitch and saving Jon's life, and thereby presumably saving Westeros as well.

[SeanC]

She never wronged Ned. She never blamed him for the supposed affair. But she DID wrong Jon Snow, because even if he had been Ned's bastard through an affair, (which of course he wasn't), it wouldn't have been his fault and he never deserved the way she treated him.

Mainly she just ignored him.

 

I don't know why anyone should expect anything more of a woman toward a product of her husband's adulterous affair who was forced into the household without her consent, in contravention of established social custom.

[Winnief]

I have two Unsullied friends who went straight to R+L=J during the first crypt scene in Episode 1, Season 1. As soon as they knew there was a dead sister, two of my friends who saw it separately, uninfluenced by me, popped out with that guess. So yes, quite a few of them are probably speculating about it. I have a few other Unsullied friends who started speculating an episode later.

 

Hmmm...well that wasn't what some of the Unsullied I know though of, (but perhaps they're less experienced tv watchers than your crowd!)

 

I agree, though, that Oberyn's comment that Rhaegar "left Lyanna for another woman," did not go unnoticed by anyone in the forums-and that was a nice bit of set-up.

[Meredith Quill]

For those of you who discussed a subform for the books, it now exists :)

[Winnief]

Fun link...

 

http://io9.com/5-game-of-thrones-book-plots-were-glad-the-tv-show-is-s-1691715991

 

Have to say I agree with all their choices here.

[Hecate7]

Mainly she just ignored him.

 

I don't know why anyone should expect anything more of a woman toward a product of her husband's adulterous affair who was forced into the household without her consent, in contravention of established social custom.

 

Because people are more than simply byproducts of sex, and because Catelyn is supposed to be one of the good guys. It's fine for villains to indulge their every pettiest whim and to ignore the humanity of a small innocent child, but the good guys are not supposed to be completely insensitive to the needs of a child left in their care.

[SeanC]

Because people are more than simply byproducts of sex, and because Catelyn is supposed to be one of the good guys. It's fine for villains to indulge their every pettiest whim and to ignore the humanity of a small innocent child, but the good guys are not supposed to be completely insensitive to the needs of a child left in their care.

Jon Snow wasn't left in her care.  He was Ned's responsibility, and whatever nurses Ned engaged.

 

Nobody would ever expect a woman to look after the children her husband had while cheating on her.  Indeed, today we'd generally expect Catelyn to divorce him.

[SilverShadow]

Jon Snow wasn't left in her care.  He was Ned's responsibility, and whatever nurses Ned engaged.

 

Nobody would ever expect a woman to look after the children her husband had while cheating on her.  Indeed, today we'd generally expect Catelyn to divorce him.

 

Actually I have someone in my life (who isn't a millenial so it's not a generation thing) who did exactly that. She was in a long term relationship, he cheated, both she and the other woman got pregnant. She and the guy got married, and she's treated her stepson as one of her own whenever he's with their family from day one. Heck, she fought to try and make it possible for the kid to live with them, though ultimately the child decided he wanted to stay with his mother in a different state. I won't give exact ages, but the kid's in highschool now. So when it's treated as fact that it would have been near-impossible for Cat to have considered treating Jon like a person instead of the sybmol of her husband's betrayal, I have to give serious side-eye.

 

IMO in that situation Cat was the grown up and should have put on her big girl pants to consider the well-being of an inncoent kid over her own hurt feelings. She had every right to be mad at Ned, but taking her pain out on Jon was 100% percent wrong. And in modern society, asusming she chose to stay with Ned, her treatment of Jon would be (rightfully IMO) called out as abuse. Just because she didn't beat him every day or starve him, doesn't mean she didn't cause a hell of a lot of damage.

[SeanC]

And in modern society, asusming she chose to stay with Ned, her treatment of Jon would be (rightfully IMO) called out as abuse.

The key difference there being that Catelyn does not have a choice regarding whether she stays with Ned.  She's stuck with him until one or the other dies.  She doesn't even have any authority over who lives in their house, otherwise Jon would never have lived there in the first place.

 

Maybe in some ideal world they would have gotten along better, but at the end of the day, Catelyn is not Jon's stepmother and her maternal love is not a public resource.  She's not required to provide to her husband's adulterous offspring.

Edited March 17, 2015 by SeanC