Some People Are Indifferent To Raymond: Your Least Favorite Moments

[David T. Cole]

Those not so fresh episodes and moments.

[FormerMod-a1]

Love the title.  

The first one I thought of it the one where Marie purposely relabels some herbs/spices when "teaching" Debra to cook something.  Even though it leads to the "Who's the crazy one now, Ray!" line, that was just beyond mean.  

[ByTor]

I couldn't stand the early episode where Debra's parents take them all out to that nice French restaurant. The Barones behaved like they've never been in public before. I guess it bothers me more now knowing that in later seasons, Marie was portrayed as having an interest in things like art, the opera, French lessons. There is no way later season Marie would behave like she did in this episode.

I also won't rewatch the one where Frank is the lodge's man of the year.  Frank was an even bigger ass than normal, and I find that scene with Marie in her facial mask super awkward.

[barbedwire]

I hate, hate the episode with the annoying kid.  Cheryl Hines is the mom of that kid. 

[Inquisitionist]

I hate the annoying kid, but like the episode.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of parents like his: unable to see how awful their "special snowflake" is behaving.  I liked Debra bonding with Ray at the end after she finally got it.

[Guest]

I hate any of the ones featuring Peter, with the possible exception of the Thanksgiving one. The last season was way too McDougall heavy.

 

I also hate the Christmas picture. Debra was completely unreasonable and passive aggressive.  The obvious solution of taking one picture with just the Barones, one with just Debra's family, and one whole group picture never occurred to anyone.  Robert acted like a petulant child. The whole thing was so irritating.

[Inquisitionist]

I find the last season episode with the kid whose father was a janitor too cringe-worthy to rewatch.  I just wanted to smack Ray every time he opened his mouth.

[ByTor]

I find the last season episode with the kid whose father was a janitor too cringe-worthy to rewatch.  I just wanted to smack Ray every time he opened his mouth.

I swear I am the only person on the planet who actually likes this one! *quietly skulks away*

[Milk-Eyed Mender]

Yeah, the janitor storyline is pretty bad, but Crazy Chin just might be worse. Speaking of being the only person...does anyone else share my dislike of the finale? I thought it was charmless and dull, its only saving grace for me being the breakfast table fade-to-black. There might be 10 -15 episodes in the entire series that I just don't bother with in reruns and the finale is one of them.

[ByTor]

I don't really like or dislike the finale, but I lean toward dislike.  Quite a blah ending for a show that was on for that many years.

 

I thought of one episode that I really dislike & never watch, Bully on the Bus.  I hate what a mean little thing Allie is (which really came out of nowhere), and I hate the way Debra initially blows it off.  It also reminds me of why Debra drives me crazy...she herself acts like a bully in that episode where she's the aggressor yet preaches about defending yourself, yet she always comes off with that shrill "RAY!!!" when Marie is being an ass.  You love defending yourself so much, jut do it!

[Inquisitionist]

I thought it was charmless and dull,

 

Whereas I thought the finale was just about note-perfect, both funny and touching. 

[HappyPeppyPerson]

The finale was a fitting footnote to the title of the series: the last episode showed how, even though he could be incredibly annoying to them at times, Everybody in his family Love(d) Raymond.

[random chance]

I find the last season episode with the kid whose father was a janitor too cringe-worthy to rewatch.  I just wanted to smack Ray every time he opened his mouth.

 

I liked it better after I realized that the entire episode was a setup for the punchline of Debra saying "who knows, maybe he'll bring home someone whose father works in the sewers."  For some reason the first time I watched it I didn't see that part.

 

My least favorite episode is probably "What's Wrong With Robert?" where he's mean and bitchy to everyone and it turns out it's because he didn't like moving out of home once his wound healed.  The whole thing is just off to me.  Like it was a script they didn't like but they shoved it in a drawer in case of emergency.

[ByTor]

My least favorite episode is probably "What's Wrong With Robert?" where he's mean and bitchy to everyone and it turns out it's because he didn't like moving out of home once his wound healed.  The whole thing is just off to me.  Like it was a script they didn't like but they shoved it in a drawer in case of emergency.

I'm not really wild about it either, but I do like 2 parts. When Debra was doing impressions of Marie/Frank (hello dear...holy crap!), and the look on everyone's faces when Robert was crying in the bedroom "I'm a nut job!"

[random chance]

Haha true, Debra does a really accurate impression of them all, especially Marie.

[Inquisitionist]

I liked it better after I realized that the entire episode was a setup for the punchline of Debra saying "who knows, maybe he'll bring home someone whose father works in the sewers."

 

It was a heck of a long and painful journey to that anemic joke.  ;-)

[CherryAmes]

Whereas I thought the finale was just about note-perfect, both funny and touching.

 

I felt the same way.  I realty identified with Debra in this one - I swear I teared up the first time I saw it when she starts talking about doing groceries and picking up the dry cleaning.  All the normal everyday things that would have changed forever had Ray died.

 

My least favourite episode is the "thank you notes" one, where Marie is getting on Amy's back about sending thank yous for the wedding gifts right after they got back from their honeymoon.  Cannot stand Marie in this one.  I did like Frank writing "thanks for my shrapnel" on the napkin!

[Starscream]

I think my least favorite moment was in Golf For It when Ray and Robert went from deciding who's gonna get stuck with Marie (Ray pulling his 'Debra' trump card is one of my all-time favorite moments) to betting to determine who gets the "privilege" of taking care of her in old age.  It's the sort of thing this show was built on, to be sure, but they'd just spent most of the episode deliciously calling Marie on all her crap after she pulled that silly manipulation to get them to build and paint shelves so she could brag to Lee about it.

[Milk-Eyed Mender]

I liked Golf For It quite a bit, but the mention of golf reminds me of a least favorite moment from Fun With Debra. I just cannot buy that a woman who made her living doing public relations for the Rangers, is now several years into her marriage to sports writer/golf addict Ray Barone and owns at least one television set tuned into ESPN 24/7 would have no clue "birdie" is a golf term. So lame. And yet the writers had her swinging that club like she'd been playing forever.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Milk-Eyed Mender

[ByTor]

I hate the whole shadow thing in the Fun With Debra episode.  It IS rude for one's shadow to get in the way of someone putting, and the fact that Debra's ignorance toward that etiquette was played for laughs annoys me.

[CherryAmes]

And yet the writers had her swinging that club like she'd been playing forever.

 

I read somewhere that Patty Heaton actually does play golf. It's too bad ELR decided that having Debra be jealous of Ray's obsession with golf would be funnier than maybe having her play golf and be better at it than him!  I mean Debra had a lot of time on her hands with the kids in school all day, and she was just as entitled to play golf with friends as Ray was.  I wonder why they never went there?

[ByTor]

I guess the writers preferred the cliché of the put-upon wife with the golf obsessed husband.

[twoods]

I absolutely hated the janitor episode along with Marie and Frank being so uptight at the French restaurant. Not funny at all. I also skip in the Allie bully one too, along with the annoying couple who were all crazy with the t-ball snacks.

[Guest]

I read somewhere that Patty Heaton actually does play golf. It's too bad ELR decided that having Debra be jealous of Ray's obsession with golf would be funnier than maybe having her play golf and be better at it than him!  I mean Debra had a lot of time on her hands with the kids in school all day, and she was just as entitled to play golf with friends as Ray was.  I wonder why they never went there?

Because Debra having a hobby she enjoyed would have gone against the whole "Debra as a martyr" theme they liked to portray.  The writers, especially later in the series, seemed to go out of their way to have Debra say she had no free time, no time to herself, etc. Even after all the children were in school full-time.

 

I love Golf For It.  Yes, Marie is annoying, but the fight just cracks me up every time. 

[CleoCaesar]

The writers, especially later in the series, seemed to go out of their way to have Debra say she had no free time, no time to herself, etc. Even after all the children were in school full-time.

 

That always puzzled me. She doesn't work, has three healthy school-age children and free babysitting on demand, is healthy herself and doesn't seem to be financially struggling. Yes, she had the in-laws from Hades, but otherwise, she had it very easy. I never much liked Debra's martyr side, even though I am generally more sympathetic to her than any of the other characters.

[Inquisitionist]

As with many long-running series, ELR's characters became more caricatured over time, and the details of their lives often became less realistic or consistent with prior episodes.  I think that's just an artifact of "bringing the funny" for over 200 episodes.  Even though there were irritating developments over time, I still find the show consistently funny through season 8.  With a few exceptions, I could do without season 9.  Thank goodness they made only 16 episodes that last year!

[CherryAmes]

That always puzzled me. She doesn't work, has three healthy school-age children and free babysitting on demand, is healthy herself and doesn't seem to be financially struggling. Yes, she had the in-laws from Hades, but otherwise, she had it very easy.

 

Well I'd say with Marie Barone as a mother in law, and living so close, Debra isn't exactly on easy street even if she doesn't seem to do much, but I do agree with you that by the last few years of the series Debra really should have been working or they should have made a bit of an effort to show that she had a lot of things going on her life. Yes, she did volunteer but I don't think they ever made it seem like she was the kind of volunteer who treats volunteering like a full-time job. 

 

Obviously the reason Deb was at home was the show was home based - and she was home the same reason Ray, Robert and Amy were almost always home.  By the last few years of the show it's like the writers forgot these other three even had jobs.  Ray in particular was either home or golfing or home scheming to go golfing.  I can't really remember any episode in the last couple of seasons where Ray is even at work.  I wish they'd kept that - Ray at work were generally fun episodes and I liked them showing other characters and Ray with a different aspect to his character.

Edited June 6, 2014 by CherryAmes

[bigskygirl]

Ray did not want Debra working because he would have to get off his lazy ass to help out around the house. Marie would have complained about Debra abandoning her kids for a career.

[ShadowSixx]

I really disliked that episode where Marie announced that Rose Caputto died and she picked her to be with Frank in case she passed away first. Then Debra puts Ray on the spot making him pick who he would choose for her and Ray obviously didn't want to do it or participate in it but she kept harping on him. She picks Bernie's wife Linda for him and then he says Bernie and she gets a look on his face and even said Ray picked Bernie cause he knows that she wouldn't be attracted to him. Then after thinking about it Ray says he picked Robert for her and then she gets another look on her face. It looks to me like Debra was wanting Ray to say Gianni because if she looks at it Ray doesn't hang around a flock of handsome men cause besides Gianni all who was left is Andy. Then she creates this lie about Ray and Bernie and just made a whole mess out of the situation.

[LGGirl]

My least Fav was the finale. I just didn't like how it ended. I guess I was hoping Ray would have an epiphany and realize how much of his time was spent focusing on his mother, father and brother and not his wife and kids. He's change and become a better man.

[Inquisitionist]

He's change and become a better man.

 

And I like the fact that it didn't go this route, but just showed us that under all the fighting and insecurity and thoughtlessness, there was real affection. 

[CherryAmes]

What I liked was that moment when the nurse comes out and Debra thinks Ray may be dead.  Patty Heaton played that scene really well IMO and they didn't let it play out too long.  It never veered into Very Special Episode territory, it was just a few seconds, but it was very real to me.  And nicely followed up by the scene where Debra is listing all the little things she's going to do and you know she's thinking how relieved she is to be able to have just a regular everyday day. 

[ShadowSixx]

I really hate the surprise bday party that Lois was throwing for Debra and Debra made Ray tell her and she wanted a Chinese banquet, and Ray really couldn't spoil what Lois was doing for her. Then he had to tell Lois to switch it to Chinese to make Debra happy and then Lois thought Ray didn't like her. Then Robert spoiling it by telling everyone that Debra knows. What bothers me about Robert is how he likes to spoil and ruin things for people like he did when Ray got Debra that "To Kill A Mockingbird" book.

[CleoCaesar]

Everyone except Lois was fairly awful in that episode. Also, Debra? You don't get to dictate what kind of surprise party someone is throwing you. I agree with you, ShadowSixx, about Robert. He can be such a petty asshole sometimes.

[ShadowSixx]

It's why I can never feel bad for Robert whenever bad things happen to him. He's almost as bad as Marie when it comes to being petty. Robert and Marie are the worst in that arena.

 

I also didn't care for that episode where Ray and Debra were OK with Ally babysitting but didn't want to tell Marie. WTF?? Tell Marie to get over it, just because she has no life outside of Ray and Frank, not my problem. Also in that episode where they no longer had to pay the mortgage and Debra and Ray introduced Marie and Frank to the Stipes and Frank and Marie always came over to Ray and Debra's house. WTF?? I mean really, you guys don't have anything else to do but go across the street. Marie guilts Ray into staying and talking to them.

 

I also didn't like the "Homework" episode because they figured that Ally had too much homework but Debra put everything on Ray's shoulders. Now Ray was the one that said that the homework should be lowered she shouldn't have volunteered him the way she did without talking it out with him first. She already knows Ray is irresponsible and obnoxious, so don't know what her goal was in having him speak up. 

 

The Family Portrait that Ray wanted to have taken for Marie is one of the worst episodes. Marie wanted a family portrait photo for Christmas. Ray tells Robert and Debra and Debra says it's stupid but then agrees. Then she puts Ray on the spot and wants him to side with her on changing their Christmas tradition of Ray driving back and forth from Debra's parents house to Ray's parents house. She wanted that done, yet she asked Marie for permission to change it and not Ray and gets upset when Ray doesn't side with her. Then as revenge she invites her parents to be in the photo. Normally I wouldn't have a problem with that but this was Marie's gift, it wasn't a family photo that was gonna hang on everyone's walls or mantles. Ray didn't have a problem with Warren and Lois showing up he didn't like being blindsided with it and Debra should have told him that they were coming but didn't. Then Robert and Frank act completely rude towards Lois and Warren like they did something to them. Robert acts like an ass cause Amy can't be in the picture, well duh Robert, Amy wasn't a Barone just yet and Ray didn't even have a problem with Amy being in it either. So because Amy isn't in it he opts not to change his shirt and calls Warren and Lois a name and rolls his eyes when Debra and Lois are talking. Everyone just unloads their problems on Ray and expected him to fix everything.

 

One episode where Ray was a complete ass was when he was trying to fix Peter up on a date. Peter was interested in Peggy, but Ray wanted Peter to go out with Stefania. I don't know why Ray was acting like that cause he never cared for Peter anyway so it shouldn't have bothered him on who Peter decided to date.

 

What bothers me mostly about Debra is how she complains about the housework and how Ray doesn't help out around the house, yet she took on the role of housewife while Ray works outside the home. The only gripe I will agree with Debra on is that Ray should have been more involved with the children, even though he shows signs of being an involved father, with being involved with T-Ball, helping the twins be fairies in the play, help Ally sell cookies, found out why Michael didn't want to go to school, found out Ally being a bully on the school bus, so Ray wasn't too bad on being involved in his kid's life.

Edited June 14, 2014 by ShadowSixx

[Inquisitionist]

What bothers me mostly about Debra is how she complains about the housework and how Ray doesn't help out around the house, yet she took on the role of housewife while Ray works outside the home.

 

I could understand this in the early years, because I'd imagine that running a household with three pre-school-aged children (including twin boys) is much more than a 40-hour-a-week job.   But in addition, the person who works outside the house doesn't have to make the homemaker's job worse through thoughtlessness, e.g., leaving dirty clothes on the floor instead of in the hamper, making a mess when the guys come over to watch a game on the weekends, etc. 

[ShadowSixx]

Debra has shown that she was competent at being a housewife during the early seasons with cooking and cleaning until later seasons they had Marie harp on her skills. Debra made a whole Thanksgiving dinner that people enjoyed, she made braciole that everyone enjoyed, lemon chicken and all that and the house was never dirty to where people would be embarrassed to come over. If Debra was such a horrible cook then why did Marie go to Debra when she wanted to make a healthy Thanksgiving meal?

 

It just looked like Marie didn't want Debra or anyone for that matter to excel at cooking. Thinking Debra was destroying her because she made braciole that Frank and Ray loved and gave Robert a look when he complimented Ally's grilled cheese sandwich. Amy could cook but Marie never harped on or got jealous of Amy.

[Starscream]

It looks to me like Debra was wanting Ray to say Gianni

Come on now, you and I both know Debra wanted Ray to choose Parker.

[ShadowSixx]

Well Debra would be on dream street if she ever thought Ray would say someone that he doesn't like to replace him.

[Inquisitionist]

Ha-ha, given that Parker is played by Heaton's husband, you may be right!

[ByTor]

Last night I watched the one where Debra wanted alone time & she was crying to the Ice Castles theme.  I don't normally watch that one & now I know why...I was going to knock Ray into next week if I had to hear him say "you have a mustache" one more time!

[CherryAmes]

Funny you posted just now, Bytor, I was just coming in to post another "Ray needs to be slapped" moment.  I was watching the episode with the naughty board game last night.  It's not a favourite of mine and over at TWOP I know I ranted a time or two about how annoying I found it that Marie, Frank and Robert are all hanging out at Ray and Debra's house when they are not even home (aargh) but last night I noticed for the first time what a complete jerk Ray was being towards Debra right from the start of the show.  Nasty crack after nasty crack.  It was pretty jarring.  Ray can be selfish and thoughtless towards Debra but I never felt he was deliberately mean.  Until last night.  I don't know what the writers were trying to prove but I didn't find him funny and between him and the way all the other Barones were hovering and being downright intrusive I have never felt more sorry for Debra.

 

It also highlighted the recurring issue of Debra expecting a little help from Raymond around the house.  They make it clear that she got three kids off to bed then cleaned up the kitchen and did all the dishes from the family meal while Ray sat on the sofa, watched TV and tried to figure out a way to make sure he was going to get some sex that night.  Of course giving Debra a hand with the kids and the dishes never even crossed his mind.

Edited June 24, 2014 by CherryAmes

[ByTor]

As long as we are talking about Raymond needing to get slapped, another episode is Italy.  Overall I liked that episode, but let me get this straight.  Raymond is a "grumpy pain in the ass" (to quote Debra) for the entire trip, but then once he "gets" Italy he's all like "well I decided I want to enjoy myself now, forget all of the other days I tried to ruin."  To quote Debra again, "idiot!"

Edited June 27, 2014 by ByTor

[ShadowSixx]

Every character had their slap moments.

 

Frank for the way he dealt with the whole running into Ray and Debra's house. Very unsympathetic in that episode cause he would have been pissed if the roles were reversed.

 

Debra for that Christmas Picture episode that I already commented on.

 

Ray for the way he was treating Geoffrey when he was playing basketball. Ray could have supported his son instead of making fun of him.

 

Robert for being so damn petty and stank in that episode when Ray brought Debra that "To Kill A Mockingbird" book. It was so hypocritical of Robert to ask Ray why was he at his house when Robert comes by Ray's house practically everyday and then needed to tell Debra that it was his idea to give Debra that book.

 

Marie for those Thank You notes she guilted Amy into writing. She needed to get double back slapped for that one. I wish they haven't let Amy bow down to her.

Edited June 28, 2014 by ShadowSixx

[ByTor]

Every character had their slap moments.

 

Frank for the way he dealt with the whole running into Ray and Debra's house. Very unsympathetic in that episode cause he would have been pissed if the roles were reversed...

 

Robert for being so damn petty and stank in that episode when Ray brought Debra that "To Kill A Mockingbird" book. It was so hypocritical of Robert to ask Ray why was he at his house when Robert comes by Ray's house practically everyday and then needed to tell Debra that it was his idea to give Debra that book.

 

Maybe this should be in an unpopular opinion thread, but I think Frank is mostly a nasty, mean person and I am rarely amused by him.  I really wanted to slap him when he got indignant about the "loveless marriage" comment on the Thanksgiving episode when Marie got glasses.  All he does is fling insults at her & he dares to have a hissy fit for being accused of not loving her.

 

Don't even get me started on that To Kill a Mockingbird one! Robert annoyed me from the beginning with calling Ray out for being a "glory hog" for paying more for Marie's birthday gift than he or Frank.  Robert was the one who opened his huge mouth about who paid what, not Ray.

Edited June 28, 2014 by ByTor

[CherryAmes]

Just watched the hackido episode.  Overall an episode I like (especially the scene with Paul Reubens) but I really hate the idea that Ray was in the wrong for undoing the original trade that Allie made.  Allie was actually taking advantage of Parker's little boy even if the reason she was doing it had nothing to do with the monetary value of the card.  Debra expecting Ray to go back to Parker and get the original trade reinstated was just dumb.  I get they needed to set things up to introduce the whole scene with Amy's brother and have Ray do something fatherly for Allie but sheesh.  Would any parent actually go to another parent and intervene like that - and the two men getting into a "no givesies backsies " argument?  I mean c'mon!

Edited June 29, 2014 by CherryAmes

[Guest]

 

 

Don't even get me started on that To Kill a Mockingbird one! Robert annoyed me from the beginning with calling Ray out for being a "glory hog" for paying more for Marie's birthday gift than he or Frank.  Robert was the one who opened his huge mouth about who paid what, not Ray.

 

I hate that whole episode for so many reasons.  Ray does a nice thing for his mom, brother, and dad by getting a nice gift and never intending anyone to find out that he spent more than it seemed they had decided to.  Debra then makes his gift to Marie all about her.  Ray then starts lying about her gift and then goes way overboard when she's touched by the book.  Robert can't stand Ray getting appreciated instead of maligned, so he has to ruin everything.  In that episode alone, Robert's pettiness ruined nice gifts for Debra and Marie! 

[ShadowSixx]

Marie should have accepted the gift and not mention how much it cost and Robert wouldn't have gotten all petty. Marie should have remained mute, Frank didn't care how much he had to pay until Robert and Marie started making a big deal out of who spent what. If Ray was being a "glory hog" then Robert should have purchased a gift for Marie himself, just gave money to Ray, no questions asked. 

 

There was also that Christmas episode where Debra got Robert a tie and Robert was acting like Debra was obligated to buy him an expensive gift. Didn't know Debra was married to Robert. When Debra came out with the DVD player for Ray, Robert goes all "What the hell?"

 

Everyone was acting stank when Ray received his honorary doctorate. Ray forgets to mention Debra so he decided to mention her in an article and then comes Marie getting all upset that Ray does this for her. Robert acts stupid that Amy has to get him to say something nice to Ray and then Robert wants credit for Ray's career which was just stupid and petty. Frank didn't care. Then when Ray thanks them all, they still act petty, Robert - "He thanked me first.", Debra - "Saved me for last.", Marie - "He said the most meaningful to me." All this commotion over thanking Debra in an article. Debra isn't completely blameless because she was making fun and tearing Ray down when they were in bed.

 

I mean the show is funny but as the seasons progressed they just got flat out mean, nasty, and rude to each other.

[Starscream]

Marie should have accepted the gift and not mention how much it cost and Robert wouldn't have gotten all petty. Marie should have remained mute,

But one of the points of the episode is how materialistic Marie is.  How much it cost is one the most important aspects of the gift, in her mind.  It's proof that the toaster incident didn't change her.

 

Robert was a real jerk in The Thought That Counts.  Not only is his Raymond envy out of control, but it was one of the most overt displays of his Debra worship that Amy had witnessed.  And then he gave her tickets to the Ice Capades.

[ShadowSixx]

That was so wrong of Robert too, he knows all this information on Debra, yet he barely if ever gave Amy a thoughtful gift. Didn't in one of the earlier seasons he gave her an iguana as a gift? Gave her tickets to the ice capades, Robert is horrible.