Debra: Shrill Harpy or Saint (or Something Else?)

[BlossomCulp]

3 hours ago, WildStyle said:

But I don't think she was wrong to be shocked & angry when she finds out that Ray invited her, with no intention of spending non-sexual time together.

Exactly!  They made it clear that she was so happy and excited that he had invited her down.  She thought he missed her and wanted her company so they could have a nice little mini-vacation together.  Then she finds out that the only reason she's there is for sex - and because he's worried that the other wives will let the cat out of the bag that most of the guys seems to have brought their wives along, not their best buds.  Typical Ray.   And then when he realizes how much he has hurt her he overreacts and ruins the week-end for everyone.

Edited December 3, 2017 by BlossomCulp

[Guest]

She was way oversimplifying to say he only wanted her there for sex. She gave him no benefit of the doubt that he would spend anytime with her. Just as soon as she didn’t get her way about something, massive, humiliating hissy fit. 

[BlossomCulp]

Not sure what you mean by "her way"?  She wanted to spend time with Ray not with "the wives".  If she'd known going down that the plan was that the guys golfed and the gals (insert rolling eyes here) shopped then she could have decided if that's what she wanted to do.  Ray set her up by making it seem like he actually wanted to spend time with her.  He may not really have thought of her only for sex but it wasn't much more than that.

[Guest]

“Her way” is thinking Ray should spend the day with her instead of the press conference he had to cover and golf. We don’t know what Ray said or didn’t say on the phone before she came “hey, come have a romantic week with me” or “Super Bowl week is fun; you should come.” Either way, because the trip (for his work) wasn’t what she expected so she threw a temper tantrum. Which he then went overboard to appease, being an even bigger idiot than normal. And then she suddenly cared how that reflected on her after throwing her fit in front of their Friends. It was so inconsistent.

[WildStyle]

She didn't expect Ray to miss the press conference or the game. That wasn't her problem. She even asked him when he was explaining. "When are we together? Does that happen here?" And Ray smirked at her, then talked about seeing her later that night, where it would really happen. Meaning sex. So, no surprise she says he brought her as a Superbowl whore. He didn't seem to have anything else planned, when it came to her. Otherwise, he'd have given her something more than "I'm gonna see you for sex' tonight." That's  how Ray had it worked out.  Ray wanting to do his own thing, and see Debra for sex is what she gets at home -and she doesn't have to fly somewhere, and sleep in a strange bed for it. He invited her. If you don't plan to be around someone for a trip, you don't invite them on it. lol

Debra wasn't inconsistent. She was surprised and upset at Ray inviting her down there only to not wanna be bothered with her during the day. She told him what her problem was. They don't spend any time together, and he doesn't seem to care. So she said she was going home, and wanted Ray to take her to the airport. Ray tries to start making plans with her. But Debra doesn't accept that because then Ray was just doing it out of pity to try and appease her, not because he genuinely wanted to. Then Ray went full moron and tore up his tickets. Debra was mad then because she didn't ask him to do that. She only wanted to spend some time with him. Not have him give up the Superbowl and also ruin Gianni's trip. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by WildStyle

[CherryAmes]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

Either way, because the trip (for his work) wasn’t what she expected so she threw a temper tantrum.

She threw a temper tantrum because, as usual, Ray let her down.  He led her to believe he wanted her company, that he wanted to spend the week-end with her.  And that wasn't true.  At all.  As has been said if she'd known ahead of time what to expect and that there would be activities for the wives when the guys were off golfing - not working, golfing -  and then threw that tantrum I'd be totally on Team Ray but that's not what happened.

Edited December 3, 2017 by CherryAmes

[Snow Apple]

Yeah, I have to agree Debra expected to do a few romantic things and maybe couple things with the others. Not spend the entire time separated except for bed. She could do "girls night" and shop at home. It's rare to have a weekend out of town with your husband, even if it's a work trip. 

How insulting is it to find out you're only invited so your husband can look good in the eyes of his coworkers? On the other hand, Debra should have known better given her history with Ray regarding trips. But I guess she wised up after this one because for Italy, she snapped at Ray "Do NOT ruin this for me!" and even ignored or rolled her eyes at his pouting. She was happily shocked SHOCKED when he came around on their last day. Also, it's not only vacations. She's even learned her lesson regarding taking the children to the zoo and rather have Robert along. She knows Robert would have fun goofing off with the children and won't deliberately put a damper on the day like Ray.

We said this many times. Unless it's golf (without Debra) or sex, he's not interested and make sure they know it. I can still hear all his "aaaarrgghh" noises that he loves to make.

So yes, Debra is a harpy but it's a reaction to how she's being treated for years. She acts politely to outsiders.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Snow Apple

[BlossomCulp]

Also I don't think Ray reacted the way he did because Debra was a harpy or being mean or unreasonable or that he was trying to appease her or whatever.  He reacted the way he did because he realized he had hurt her and that she had a right to be upset.  I have never watched this episode and felt the writers were trying to convey that Debra was wrong and Ray was the victim of her "harpiness".  I've always thought they showed Ray being his usual selfish, oblivious self who tries to make amends for this selfish obliviousness and screws things up.

[punkypower]

I just reached the pilot for the first time in years.

Man, I disliked Debra in it. There was NOTHING to suggest she had anything but utter contempt for the other three Barrones.

Edited December 7, 2017 by punkypower
Because I used "anything" twice

[qtpye]

On Saturday, December 02, 2017 at 1:43 PM, WildStyle said:

Well Phil Rosenthal meant for Ray to be the problem. If you have the DVD's it's on the commentary track. Phil says he gets questions from fans asking why Debra is so mean to Ray. Phil says it's because Ray has earned it.  And they tried to drive that point home in Sleepover at Peggy's. Peggy comes off like a complete bitch, and we find out she had a husband just like Ray. He never listened, or helped her. He lied about everything. And the only time she had any worth to him is if he wanted sex for 8 min. Finally, she threw him out. Then Ray saw the parallel and want home to take care of sick Debra because he didn't wanna get kicked out. 

Not to say Debra is a saint. She has a bad temper, and can be a huge child in many cases. Especially when she makes a scene in front of others, rather than waiting an appropriate time to discuss something. Or goading Ray into arguments due to her overreacting. Like making Ray think she got a boob job, then snapping at him, and accusing him of never finding her attractive just because he likes bigger breasts. She made a federal case of that.

So Debra is NOT perfect. But given how bad Ray is, I can't call her a harpy either. She's in-between. Sadly, the family got her. Now she's a Barone. She always had a bit of an attitude, but that family made it worse. lol A combination of dealing with Ray's selfishness, plus Marie's condescension.

Then you have Frank. He says outright that all the trouble and tension comes from Marie, because she's still salty that Ray married Debra. And I definitely agree with that. When they moved to the retirement community for a bit, everyone was in higher spirits. lol

 

On Saturday, December 02, 2017 at 7:02 PM, Snow Apple said:

Oops! I completely forgot I even clicked on the Debra thread.

Back to Debra. In the many flashback episodes, she was nice and normal which highlights the difference in a major way. The writers know what they were doing. So yes, Debra is a harpy but only because she turned that way bit by bit after being dealing with the Barone's for so long. Even sweet little Amy is no longer so sweet towards the end of the series.

Could it just be that Romano is a more likable person the Heaton?  Ray is a jerk, but Romano is very good at covering Ray's bad qualities with his goofy charm.

I think Heaton is a solid actress, but I find most of the characters she plays to be somewhat unlikable.

A more extreme example of this is Skylar and Walter White.  People hated Skylar even when she had no knowledge of her husband's wrong doings.  However, Brian Cranston is insanely likable and people always hated her character more by comparison, no matter what Walt did.

Also in this day and age, I knew many women who were actually envious that Debra had a husband who made enough income that she could actually stay home with the kids, even in the relatively expensive northeast (It did not matter that it was all fictional).

[Holden308]

With regards to the Super Bowl episode.....I have to admit that I do have a problem with Debra's side of it.

OK sure, Ray should have asked her before he asked Gianni or even his father or brother, but I can totally get why he didn't. Regardless that its the SB, Debra has never shown any interest in sports or her husbands work other than that one episode where they went golfing together. She even admits on multiple occasions throughout the shows run that she rarely, if ever, even read his newspaper column (about the only interest she had in it was that he made a good enough living that they could own their own home and she didn't have to go to work to support a family that included 3 kids - not that she was even happy with that at times). When Ray finally realises that he could have brought his wife as the other members of the press did, she throws a hissy fit after getting there when she finds out it wouldn't be the 2nd honeymoon she thought it was going to be. Now this is where I start having a problem with her attitude. Ray was clearly sent there by NY Newsday to cover the game. In other words it was a work trip, not just a pleasure trip. Part of that for an event like the SB would be scheduled golf time where members of the press and celebrities (maybe even some of the players) would mingle in a more relaxed atmosphere than something like a press conference. Yet shock horror Debra has a problem with it because she was 'expected' to do things with the other wives during the day and the only time she would get to see Ray would be when she was expected to be his 'whore at night'. Now this is the problem with the whole thing. If she went down there expecting a 2nd honeymoon wouldn't you think that they would be having sex at night in their hotel room? What, even on a 2nd honeymoon was she going to withhold sex from him like she almost always did at home?

Yes, I know full well that Ray is the poster child for how a husband should NOT be. But this was a work trip for him and Debra basically ruined it with her attitude because it wasn't what she wanted it to be. And she wasn't even sorry for it. In fact, after Ray completely overreacted and tore up the game tickets her only concern was that she would be known as the wife who made him eat his SB tickets.

Ray is a selfish husband and I think we can all agree on that. But the fact is that Debra is every bit as selfish even though she likes to think of herself as completely the opposite.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Holden308

[CherryAmes]

3 hours ago, Holden308 said:

Regardless that its the SB, Debra has never shown any interest in sports or her husbands work other than that one episode where they went golfing together.

This is a non-issue for me.  My husband is an engineer, I have very little idea what he does and even less interest in how he does it!  However when he's had the opportunity to travel for work and I've been able to go with him me not understanding or caring about the details of his job would never have made a difference!

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, CherryAmes said:

This is a non-issue for me.  My husband is an engineer, I have very little idea what he does and even less interest in how he does it!  However when he's had the opportunity to travel for work and I've been able to go with him me not understanding or caring about the details of his job would never have made a difference!

Yes, but I imagine you also understand when he has to work on his work trips :)

[CherryAmes]

And when he's not working!  The last thing he'd ever be doing would be golfing though.  He definitely would have gone with the "gals" for a day of shopping instead!

[ByTor]

Just now, CherryAmes said:

And when he's not working!  The last thing he'd ever be doing would be golfing though.  He definitely would have gone with the "gals" for a day of shopping instead!

Except in Raymond's case he couldn't, the golf outing & press conference were an all-day work event. 

[CherryAmes]

Just now, ByTor said:

Except in Raymond's case he couldn't, the golf outing & press conference were an all-day work event. 

He'd already done the press conference.  It was just golf with the guys.

[ByTor]

Just now, CherryAmes said:

He'd already done the press conference.  It was just golf with the guys.

Actually it wasn't, the golf was a networking event...being that she worked for the New York Rangers she should have known golf events were an important part of work.  Plus, the golf/press conference was Friday, they would have had all day Saturday to be together, then they would have gone to the game together.  But Debra had to act like a spoiled brat because 100% of the attention would not have been on her.  It was really telling that the other wife didn't have a hissy fit and embarrass her husband and herself.  This is one instance where I will never see Debra's side at all.

[CherryAmes]

I was wrong that the press conference had already happened -  I don't like this episode so watch it only rarely - but I checked it out today to satisfy my curiosity and I don't see anything in there about the golf being any kind of networking event.  They talk about the press conference and then talk about golfing and how they won't even be back to have dinner with their wives so the gals should just plan their day at the outlet mall and craft festivals.  Actually watching it again I got even madder at Ray.  He threw all that at her with the friends at the door.  He didn't even have the common sense to tell her his plans for his day and for hers without an audience.

[schnauzergirl]

Am I the only one who wonders what I'd have become if I lived with a guy like Ray and a family like the Barones?  If Debra had been like Pat, that would have been a whole different dynamic to relationships.  Just saying that I believe Debra had to change and because it's a show not known for subtlety, those changes had to be pretty extreme, at least some of the time.

[mmecorday]

Debra was at her absolute worst when the family got together for a family portrait that was supposed to be a gift for Marie and Debra insisted that her parents be in the picture too. Did she not understand that they were posing for a Barone family portrait? I mean, that's why Amy wasn't invited to be in the picture because she and Robert were not married at that point. I swear she was deliberately trying to sabotage the picture. She knew Marie didn't like her parents.

[CherryAmes]

29 minutes ago, mmecorday said:

I swear she was deliberately trying to sabotage the picture.

That's exactly why she did it.  Ray let her down, as usual, when she wanted to see her own family at Christmas.  This was payback.  It was done for sitcom effect of course but the obvious solution would have been separate pictures or at least one separate picture without Debra's parents involved - but that wouldn't have been funny I guess.

[WildStyle]

14 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

That's exactly why she did it.  Ray let her down, as usual, when she wanted to see her own family at Christmas.  This was payback.  It was done for sitcom effect of course but the obvious solution would have been separate pictures or at least one separate picture without Debra's parents involved - but that wouldn't have been funny I guess.

Agreed. Debra supported him with the picture idea, and once again he sides with Marie when something is important to her. So since Ray clearly didn't care about trying to give her slack and make her happy, she repaid him in kind.

She did something for herself and her family, and let Marie & Ray just deal with it like she often had to. Then Ray got put in her position. He got to deal with trying to please his never-happy family with a spouse who didn't care about his plight and sided with their parents.  And after an episode of dealing with all that, Ray snapped just like Debra is prone to. He hardly ever supports her, and she was returning the favor by not supporting him. Marie always has to get her own way, and Debra just has to be ok with it. Same, Debra was getting her way and Marie would have to just deal with it.

 

That's a favorite episode of mine, because I think Ray & Marie got what they deserved.

[Guest]

Debra was so far out of line in the Christmas picture episode that I hate her there.  It's an established pattern that they rotate years of who they celebrate Christmas with. She decides she wants to change it.  Ray doesn't want to change it.  Rather than work it out between the two of them, she involves Marie in it and Ray doesn't back her up because he doesn't want to do it.  She acts like she should get to change their routine just because she wants to without considering anyone else's feelings or trying to find any compromise (visiting her parents early on the 24th, etc.).  Then because she doesn't get her way, she ruins something that was supposed to be special for the family.  She undermines her husband (something she always accuses Ray of doing to her) and ruins the gift just because she didn't get her way and she's a petulant bitch.

[CherryAmes]

3 hours ago, WildStyle said:

That's a favorite episode of mine, because I think Ray & Marie got what they deserved.

Yep!!  I loved that Debra basically just said "deal with it" and Ray actually had to.  Especially when he was going around preening and taking credit for the photo shoot when Marie was happy about it but of course it had been Debra who had been expected to set the whole thing up.  Poor Ray though a few years later he actually takes the initiative, doesn't count on Debra, and gets those figurines for Marie for her birthday, and that still blew up in his face.  Dealing with a Marie is a nightmare!

[BlossomCulp]

1 hour ago, CherryAmes said:

Dealing with a Marie is a nightmare!

For sure.  I think the Debra who we see evolve over the series changes more because of Marie than Ray.  I mean yes Ray could be childish and selfish and did his level best to avoid doing anything with or for his family a lot of the time but I think Debra could cope with that.  She was aware of his good qualities and she appreciated that he was a good provider and that in his "own Ray way" he loved her and the kids.  That said Marie cut her down at every opportunity, and did her level best to make sure Debra didn't feel confident in herself as a wife, mother or especially as a homemaker.  

[WildStyle]

4 hours ago, deaja said:

Debra was so far out of line in the Christmas picture episode that I hate her there.  It's an established pattern that they rotate years of who they celebrate Christmas with. She decides she wants to change it.  Ray doesn't want to change it.  Rather than work it out between the two of them, she involves Marie in it and Ray doesn't back her up because he doesn't want to do it.  She acts like she should get to change their routine just because she wants to without considering anyone else's feelings or trying to find any compromise (visiting her parents early on the 24th, etc.).  Then because she doesn't get her way, she ruins something that was supposed to be special for the family.  She undermines her husband (something she always accuses Ray of doing to her) and ruins the gift just because she didn't get her way and she's a petulant bitch.

They were already changing it. Debra or Ray mentioned how they weren't doing the rotating anymore, and Debra tried to work out a compromise where everyone could get what they wanted. But Marie acted like a child and said she's killing Xmas because she wouldn't see the kids until 10:00 in the morning. Even Frank said that was fine, and that he'd be more pleasant at that time. But once again, Ray sides with mommy. So why should Debra not get something for herself, and tip-toe around Ray & Marie again. 

[BlossomCulp]

4 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

They were already changing it. Debra or Ray mentioned how they weren't doing the rotating anymore, and Debra tried to work out a compromise where everyone could get what they wanted. But Marie acted like a child and said she's killing Xmas because she wouldn't see the kids until 10:00 in the morning.

I know it's a sitcom and the simple answer here is "because it's not funny" but if I'd been Debra I'd have told Ray "fine we don't travel to my parents then I'll ask them to come to us".    That's basically what we did when our kids were at the ages their kids were when this episode was on.  Any grownups in our family, on either side, who wanted to see us at Christmas were more than welcome to come to us but we stopped travelling back to Montreal.  Worked for us.  But of course we didn't have a sitcom :).

[WildStyle]

4 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

For sure.  I think the Debra who we see evolve over the series changes more because of Marie than Ray.  I mean yes Ray could be childish and selfish and did his level best to avoid doing anything with or for his family a lot of the time but I think Debra could cope with that.  She was aware of his good qualities and she appreciated that he was a good provider and that in his "own Ray way" he loved her and the kids.  That said Marie cut her down at every opportunity, and did her level best to make sure Debra didn't feel confident in herself as a wife, mother or especially as a homemaker.  

You don't have to think. Frank said it. In Angry Family he outright said all the problems come from Marie still being salty that Ray married Debra. So she's the one who keeps everything stirred up. 

[msani19]

What I think is particularly horrible about Marie is that she would have loved for Ray and Debra to have split up, then she could have Ray all to herself. Plus she'd have tried to take the kids away from Debra as well. 

[WildStyle]

4 minutes ago, msani19 said:

What I think is particularly horrible about Marie is that she would have loved for Ray and Debra to have split up, then she could have Ray all to herself. Plus she'd have tried to take the kids away from Debra as well. 

That's what she said once. lol I forget the episode. But she thinks they're breaking up, and tells Ray that no matter what, she & him are keeping the children. lol

Edited December 29, 2017 by WildStyle

[BlossomCulp]

What's funny about that is there is no way Ray would have got custody.  None, zero, zip.  If Marie had ever succeeded in getting Ray and Debra to split up she'd have seen the kids when Ray did - which knowing Ray would have been further and further between visits as time went on - you'd think Marie would have been smart enough to realize that, but apparently she never clued in that Ray not only wouldn't get the kids, he wouldn't want to get the kids!

[Maharincess]

It always sickened me how Marie would get so giddy at the thought of Ray and Debra having marriage problems.  She'd lean in closer to hear the news and get a big smile. Yuck. I loathed Marie. 

[WildStyle]

5 minutes ago, Maharincess said:

It always sickened me how Marie would get so giddy at the thought of Ray and Debra having marriage problems.  She'd lean in closer to hear the news and get a big smile. Yuck. I loathed Marie. 

It was one of those inconsistent things. Sometimes, it'd be like you said . Then other times, she'd seem concerned.  Three examples off the top of my head. 

 

The Workout. Ray thinks Debra is turned on by her instructor, and coming to be him sate herself.Marie then tells him to get Debra out of the class.

Alone Time, when Debra wanted time away from Ray, and Marie tells him to go home to Debra because being apart isn't right. 

Who Am I. Where they spend time apart, then go to the bookstore. When they get home, things are a bit tense and Marie says she hoped the night would be better after their separation the other day.

18 minutes ago, BlossomCulp said:

What's funny about that is there is no way Ray would have got custody.  None, zero, zip.  If Marie had ever succeeded in getting Ray and Debra to split up she'd have seen the kids when Ray did - which knowing Ray would have been further and further between visits as time went on - you'd think Marie would have been smart enough to realize that, but apparently she never clued in that Ray not only wouldn't get the kids, he wouldn't want to get the kids!

Frank pointed that out. When they were doing wills and picking guardians for the kids. Frank hears it's not them, and shrugs. Ray asks him if he wouldn't have wanted the kids, and Frank fires back "Would you?"

Then you have season three's episode, Pants On Fire. Everyone is cold, and Frank asks Ray why he doesn't go back to his house. And Ray says because it's kids there. 

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 12/29/2017 at 4:07 PM, BlossomCulp said:

What's funny about that is there is no way Ray would have got custody.  None, zero, zip. 

No kidding - taking them to a park for an hour was beyond his grasp, let alone full time parenting.

[Holden308]

On 12/30/2017 at 2:50 AM, BlossomCulp said:

For sure.  I think the Debra who we see evolve over the series changes more because of Marie than Ray.  I mean yes Ray could be childish and selfish and did his level best to avoid doing anything with or for his family a lot of the time but I think Debra could cope with that.  She was aware of his good qualities and she appreciated that he was a good provider and that in his "own Ray way" he loved her and the kids.  That said Marie cut her down at every opportunity, and did her level best to make sure Debra didn't feel confident in herself as a wife, mother or especially as a homemaker.  

And the running joke was that many times throughout the series Ray reminds Debra that he had wanted to move as far from his parents as possible (California was mentioned, somewhere out of even short driving distance), but it was Debra who insisted that they buy the house across the street from his parents.

The implication being that when it comes to Marie, in a lot of ways she has no one to blame but herself because she was the one who chose to live so close to them. Ray warned her about moving there but (and sorry to the women here but of the women I know personally, this is pretty typical).....she didn't listen and knew better. Yet Marie interfering in her life like she did was somehow always Ray's fault.

[BlossomCulp]

10 minutes ago, Holden308 said:

Yet Marie interfering in her life like she did was somehow always Ray's fault.

I think where she blamed Ray wasn't the interfering it was the way Ray never took her side.  Ray admits as much in a few episodes.  Anyway I agree that the show makes it clear that them living across the street from Marie and Frank was Debra's fault.  But I think they also make it clear that at that point in time Debra had no idea what Frank and Marie were really like.  And she did know Ray and she knew that with twins in the offing she was going to need a lot more help than Ray was ever going to offer her.

This is one of the many things I love about this show.  Basically the family dynamic is complicated and, at least until they made Marie truly evil, they all had their good points and bad points and no one was always right or wrong.  

Edited January 4, 2018 by BlossomCulp

[Holden308]

1 minute ago, BlossomCulp said:

I think where she blamed Ray wasn't the interfering it was the way Ray never took her side.  Ray admits as much in a few episodes.  Anyway I agree that the show makes it clear that them living across the street from Marie and Frank was Debra's fault.  But I think they also make it clear that at that point in time Debra had no idea what Frank and Marie were really like.  And she did know Ray and she knew that with twins in the offing she was going to need a lot more help than Ray was ever going to offer her.

This is one of the many things I love about this show.  Basically the family dynamic is complicated and, at least until they made Marie truly evil, they all had their good points and bad points and no one was always right or wrong.  

That's a good point. Momma's boy Ray almost always took Marie's side so I can understand how Debra was with that.

However, I do disagree that Debra didn't know what Frank and particularly Marie were like. She had so many 'in-your-face' clues that were obviously ignored that it wasn't even funny. The flashback to where Ray is going to propose to Debra, the episode where she finds out that she is pregnant with Ally, and this was all before they bought the house across the street. If Debra couldn't see just from those two instances what Marie was like from her behavior at those times then they should have made her character like Jake from Becker because she really was blind.

But I will agree that Marie was the MiL from hell who went to great lengths, even sabotage, to get what she wanted and to keep things the way they were....with her being the better mother, the better wife, the better housekeeper, the better cook.

[WildStyle]

26 minutes ago, Holden308 said:

That's a good point. Momma's boy Ray almost always took Marie's side so I can understand how Debra was with that.

However, I do disagree that Debra didn't know what Frank and particularly Marie were like. She had so many 'in-your-face' clues that were obviously ignored that it wasn't even funny. The flashback to where Ray is going to propose to Debra, the episode where she finds out that she is pregnant with Ally, and this was all before they bought the house across the street. If Debra couldn't see just from those two instances what Marie was like from her behavior at those times then they should have made her character like Jake from Becker because she really was blind.

But I will agree that Marie was the MiL from hell who went to great lengths, even sabotage, to get what she wanted and to keep things the way they were....with her being the better mother, the better wife, the better housekeeper, the better cook.

The problem comes with the inconsistency. When the flashback happened in season 1, Debra really was clueless on Frank & Marie. Then it was retconned with stuff like Ally's Birth. 

Flashback retcon examples. 

Season 3, Marie tells Ray that Debra isn't the one for him as soon as she met her. But Season 6, shows that Marie loved Debra. Marie got excited when Ray was on the phone with Debra and snatched it from him so she could talk to Debra. 

Marie has always been a busy body, and it was said in season one. But then we got that random season 4 flashback -Robert's Divorce. Marie never butted in and told Robert to live his life. Debra tries to tell her that it's not butting in if you love someone. Then we find Marie never liked Joanne, but didn't wanna butt into Robert's life. If this is the way Marie was, then she wouldn't have been acting like a crazy woman when Debra was pregnant with Ally, because it goes against this characterization.

So it's hard to fault season 1 flashback Debra because she really was clueless. But the Debra who had to put up with Marie in Ally's Birth would've known better.  

That's a problem with shows that lack consistency. It makes discussion hard because there's numerous different versions.  Another example. In season 2, we first me father Hubley in the wedding flashback. Debra introduces him to Ray as her family's priest. But later on, Father Hubley became the Barone's family priest. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by WildStyle

[Holden308]

The reality is that sitcoms that run for a number of years like ELR did usually do lack consistency. Facts from early seasons often get changed (usually happens when they change writers) or even completely forgotten about.

[Inquisitionist]

Because it's sitcom, not a documentary.  ;-)

Edited January 4, 2018 by Inquisitionist
Fixed typo.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Holden308 said:

However, I do disagree that Debra didn't know what Frank and particularly Marie were like. She had so many 'in-your-face' clues that were obviously ignored that it wasn't even funny. The flashback to where Ray is going to propose to Debra, the episode where she finds out that she is pregnant with Ally, and this was all before they bought the house across the street. If Debra couldn't see just from those two instances what Marie was like from her behavior at those times then they should have made her character like Jake from Becker because she really was blind.
 

The episode at the end of Season 6 where Debra and Ray have sex for the first time should have been a big clue - Marie brought a priest over to keep them from sex!  I don't know if it is inconsistency or hindsight being 20-20.  I think a lot of times, we overlook someone's flaws that we see occasionally, but when you see them every single day, you can't ignore them. 

I think more likely is that the writers wrote a lot for what was convenient for the storyline at that time.  Having Debra say "It isn't butting in if you love someone" gets an easy laugh.

[Inquisitionist]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

The episode at the end of Season 6 where Debra and Ray have sex for the first time should have been a big clue -

I think "the end of Season 6" is a big tip-off.  I doubt the show runners had this storyline in mind when the series began.  Robert's Divorce aired at the end of S4.  In that flashback, we were given to believe that Marie was much less of a buttinsky before Joanne dumped Robert (which seemed to occur after Debra and Ray had moved into their house).

[Maharincess]

Debra's wardrobe at the beginning of the series was horrible. All they ever dressed her in was plaid shirts, black tights and clunky black shoes. I've always wondered why that's all she ever wore. 

[WildStyle]

It's possible they had her dress like that to match her short hair, which wasn't the most alluring style on her. So the clothes matched with that. She got better in season 2. But then she was frumpy again in season 3, but I assume because Patricia was pregnant that season.

[Inquisitionist]

I liked Debra's short hair (which I remember from Heaton's guest appearances as Nancy's gynecologist on thirtysomething), and thought she dressed like a suburban mom of the late 1990s would tend to dress.  Also, Heaton was pregnant during the latter part of the 1st season, as well as much of the 3rd season, so wardrobe wasn't a priority, I suspect.  IMO, the sexy Debra of later seasons seemed less realistic.

[CherryAmes]

33 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

IMO, the sexy Debra of later seasons seemed less realistic.

This totally drove me crazy,  I don't know if it was Patty Heaton wanting to look hot or if this was producer driven but it was so unrealistic.  By the end of the series Debra was fortyish with a teenage daughter.  No issue for me having her slim and pretty but major issue for me having her dressing the way she did.  I just saw the episode where Marie and Frank get kicked out of their retirement community and her pants were so tight she could barely sit down in them.  Compare the way they dressed Debra with the way Amy, Ray and Robert were dressed and there's a marked difference.  And not for the better!

[WildStyle]

Yeah, the PT&A covered her wardrobe. With Ray saying she runs around dressed like Wonder Woman, and asks if she's looking for a man in her league. 

And it annoyed me how Debra responds. Ray says she seems like she's advertising someone that's not for sale. Then she asks "Why -because you own me?" So she really just asked her husband why her body  shouldn't be for sale?

Then going complete the other direction, and asking if Ray wants her to wear snow pants and a parka. Drama much. lol

Edited January 5, 2018 by WildStyle

[CherryAmes]

4 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

Then going complete the other direction, and asking if Ray wants her to wear snow pants and a parka. Drama much. lol

What I loved is the way when she's depressed by what Ray tells her the PTA members have said that she is sitting eating chips in a sweat shirt.  Sorry writers but that's the way most of your viewers probably look when they are vegging out at home!  Maybe not the chips (maybe) but most of us can't wait to get into our "comfy clothes" when we get home!  That's one reason I preferred the way they dressed Debra in the early years, way more like a woman home running around after kids, doing laundry and avoiding a mother-in-law would dress!

[ByTor]

On 1/4/2018 at 9:25 AM, deaja said:

Marie brought a priest over to keep them from sex! 

And poor Fr. Hubley thought he was only there for the lasagna :)

[ByTor]

18 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

This totally drove me crazy,  I don't know if it was Patty Heaton wanting to look hot or if this was producer driven but it was so unrealistic. 

Yeah, it seemed like in the last season it was all about how hot Debra was (contrast that with how insecure Debra was around Angelina from Nemo's).  The episode that really made me roll my eyes hard was the one where she worked at Frank's lodge & all the lodge guys couldn't stop leering at her.  It would be nice that Frank defended her, but he started to do some leering of his own!

16 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

That's one reason I preferred the way they dressed Debra in the early years, way more like a woman home running around after kids, doing laundry and avoiding a mother-in-law would dress!

That's certainly how I'm dressed when I'm home, and I'm not even chasing little kids!  There were episodes where she would wear a skirt & sweater set, and while I get wanting to dress up, I don't think I'd go through the effort if I were her.