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Wilowy

By Wilowy
in Criminal Minds

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Droogie
Droogie

I adored Hotch.  I think he was stoic and honorable and felt as though the weight of the world was on his shoulders.  And as Reid is my favorite character, it was always dear to me, how Hotch never le

Danielg342
Danielg342

They're called "normal clothes", and, yeah, I miss that too.

JMO
JMO

The discussion about the upcoming 'Derek', and the promo for that episode brought me back to our prior two agent kidnappings.  It seems like this current set of writers has become progressively more v

Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

So I really have no idea of where to put this, since there isn't a thread for channels airing the show, but I wish the people who plan the schedules would start running the episodes in order. A & E is airing The Big Game right now, and after that they're going to jump to season five's Mosley Lane. It makes me wonder who's in charge of scheduling.

  • Love 4
Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

I wonder how they measure the size of a fan base, of any actor or actress...

 

Let m preface this by saying that fandom in general has always very much been a species unto itself. It knows neither logic nor reason, and it will try to rise up and smite those who think X Whatever Thing is the worst event ever or don't think X Whatever Thing is the worst event ever. I admit to being part of the issue, because I still try to figure out the logic of people who hate Xander because of The Lie, but think Buffy's relationship with the hundred and fifty year old adolescent that leaves her emotionally scarred for the rest of the series is romantic, but I'm digressing, so.

 

As it relates to CM, I don't think the show has as many 'rabid' fans as something like, say, Supernatural (*shudder*). but there seems to be quite a lot of yelling over the internet about it, and that seems to affect what we see onscreen. I know enough about Twitter to know that it has no code of conduct, and that accounts of showrunners and writers alike have been deleted from existence because their delicate souls can't take any criticism at all, much less something that's actually constructive. I hadn't realized that Facebook was quite as malleable, although I do have an account there. On the one hand, I think if there's a vision in place for what a show should be, then that shouldn't be deviated from because then it seems like waffling and trying to make a certain faction happy. But that vision should adhere to what made the show good, if not great, in the past.

 

I am grateful that 'shipper wars' haven't driven Messer to start pairing the main cast up. As annoying as Morgan's banter with Garcia has become, they've never actually been on a date, and I am ever so thankful for that. I half-wish that they'd give Reid another shot at a relationship, but I don't know if I trust these writers to not screw it up. Spencer does seem to be the most shipped character on the show, at least when it comes to fanfic - with Hotch, with Emily, even with a dark horse like Alex in a few rare cases. But I'm glad that if the temptation exists to make that a reality, it's been resisted.

  • Love 4
JMO

JMO

Went Christmas shopping today.  Target had Life After Beth for $8, so it sort of just fell into my basket.  I truly do hate anything to do with zombies, but MGG being in it made it tolerable.  It was the first time I couldn't see a trace of Reid in a character he played.

 

But I still hold a grudge against this film, as it is responsible for Reid's awful haircut in season 9.

  • Love 5
ForeverAlone

ForeverAlone

(edited)

I was SOOOOO grateful to Richard and Jeff for cutting Matthew's hair. I personally don't find him attractive with long hair so I despaired during season eight. I was so glad that he had to cut his hair for his summer movies, because he looked so luscious and desirable to me last year. Yes, even his hair for Life After Beth, because the short hair and his intense look for the movie was very erotic. Now he's back to looking like a homeless hipster college student who lives in a cardboard box, and my lady boner is currently in hiberation. Here's hoping he cuts it again soon. :) :) :) 

Edited by ForeverAlone
  • Love 1
Droogie

Droogie

Maybe I'm in the minority but I loved Reid's S5 hair. I usually find long hair really attractive on men in general, though. But that look was working for me. I'm liking this season's hair quite a bit too. That said, with his bone structure, he's pretty beautiful no matter what he does with his hair.

I saw a thing on YouTube with Matthew and AJ at some Comic Con thing a few years ago and they were joking and asked the audience whether they preferred Reid's hair long or short. Long hair drew the biggest cheers.

  • Love 3
Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

LOL. yeah. I know how you feel. It is frustrating. It seems like they feel they have to keep giving JJ more to do, but that because they gave Reid one story in season 8 and had him shot in the neck in season 9 that it somehow made up for all of the times he has disappeared or just not been contributing. I honestly do not know what they are thinking. AJ complained that whenever she goes somewhere with Matthew, that he is the one who gets recognized and gets all the attention. Yet, there are people who seem to think that AJ is more popular than him. I really don't get it.

 

I don't think it can be entirely about placating the JJ fans. Paget got just as screwed as AJ, if not more so, and all the writers have given the Prentiss fans is "Emily doesn't want to come back"or whatever. I don't blame Paget for not wanting to come back, mind, but if it was all about trying to dodge claims of sexism, JJ (and to a somewhat lesser extent Garcia) wouldn't be the only female leads who have mostly avoided the shit-storm of being ignored by the writers. Whether or not bad writing is better than no writing is up for debate. And sure, Hewitt is more of a name than AJ, or at least she is IMO, but Jeanne was more of a name than AJ too, but somehow Cook is still here and Tripplehorn isn't. It's all very confusing, and it makes me wonder a wee bit if Lola Glaudini's official reason for leaving wasn't the real reason.

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zannej

zannej

I don't think it can be entirely about placating the JJ fans. Paget got just as screwed as AJ, if not more so, and all the writers have given the Prentiss fans is "Emily doesn't want to come back"or whatever. I don't blame Paget for not wanting to come back, mind, but if it was all about trying to dodge claims of sexism, JJ (and to a somewhat lesser extent Garcia) wouldn't be the only female leads who have mostly avoided the shit-storm of being ignored by the writers. Whether or not bad writing is better than no writing is up for debate. And sure, Hewitt is more of a name than AJ, or at least she is IMO, but Jeanne was more of a name than AJ too, but somehow Cook is still here and Tripplehorn isn't. It's all very confusing, and it makes me wonder a wee bit if Lola Glaudini's official reason for leaving wasn't the real reason.

Oh, I don't think it was all about placating the fans. I think there was a good deal of CBS and Erica trying to placate AJ. Obviously, Paget was beyond the point of being placated with the way she was dicked around. She did briefly indicate that its hard to find work, but to be perfectly blunt, she's got more talent than AJ and was able to draw interest to a character that wasn't necessarily interesting on paper because she has charisma. I think if Paget had stayed and made demands, they probably would be catering to her somewhat. I just think that the current writers aren't great with intellectual characters instead of action! characters, so Reid and Blake suffered. I still think it was idiotic of them to give Blake one of Reid's specialties that had not been used in a few seasons, but I really got the impression that the showrunners never really got behind Blake and somewhat resented having Jeanne pushed on them by CBS. I don't think they were ever mean to Jeanne herself, but I think it really shows in the writing and the decisions of how much focus (or lack thereof) she got.

  • Love 4
alexvillage

alexvillage

 

Oh, I don't think it was all about placating the fans. I think there was a good deal of CBS and Erica trying to placate AJ. Obviously, Paget was beyond the point of being placated with the way she was dicked around. She did briefly indicate that its hard to find work, but to be perfectly blunt, she's got more talent than AJ and was able to draw interest to a character that wasn't necessarily interesting on paper because she has charisma.

I agree so much with this! 

I miss Emily but, as I think I said before, I am glad Paget is moving on and trying new things, and that she will not take crap from TPTB. To me, it indicates self confidence and self care. 

As for AJ Cook, I don't think she has enough talent to sustain a long term career, or she is not willing to make less money, or go for a period of time making no money, so she swallow the crap they threw at her and came back. She was able to get a good contract, apparently. 

To make it clear, this IS a judgement, and it is based on simple guess. As I also said somewhere before, I only have my guesses and perceptions to go by, and I don't usually ready things about the actor's lives. 

  • Love 5
ForeverAlone

ForeverAlone

AJ mentioned once in an interview that when CBS asked her to come back, she had to think about it. On the one hand, she had her pride and was pissed at CBS for firing her. But she said she made the decision to come back, because it was the best decision for her family. AJ is definitely the primary breadwinner in her family and to have a steady job in LA that pays well was too hard to pass up.

 

Paget has no kids, and at the time, she wasn't married or engaged. She stated in an interview that she had a fair amount of savings since she was fairly frugal with her life. She could afford to not work for a while if it came to that. Unfortunately, it did come to that. Paget was able to have the occasional guest work, but she definitely struggled for work after she left, and I got the impression from some of her tweets, that she regretted leaving Criminal Minds, if only for the steady paycheck (though she is obviously friends with her coworkers as well). 

  • Love 4
SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

Oh, I don't think it was all about placating the fans. I think there was a good deal of CBS and Erica trying to placate AJ. Obviously, Paget was beyond the point of being placated with the way she was dicked around. She did briefly indicate that its hard to find work, but to be perfectly blunt, she's got more talent than AJ and was able to draw interest to a character that wasn't necessarily interesting on paper because she has charisma. I think if Paget had stayed and made demands, they probably would be catering to her somewhat. I just think that the current writers aren't great with intellectual characters instead of action! characters, so Reid and Blake suffered. I still think it was idiotic of them to give Blake one of Reid's specialties that had not been used in a few seasons, but I really got the impression that the showrunners never really got behind Blake and somewhat resented having Jeanne pushed on them by CBS. I don't think they were ever mean to Jeanne herself, but I think it really shows in the writing and the decisions of how much focus (or lack thereof) she got.

I think it was very telling when the whole cast was on The Talk to promote the 200th episode. Most of them were talking and smiling and trying to grab attention, but Jeanne was very quiet and barely even smiled. I wondered at the time if she thought the fans didn't care for her or if she was just holding back because there was very little attention paid to her character. 

zannej

zannej

I think it was very telling when the whole cast was on The Talk to promote the 200th episode. Most of them were talking and smiling and trying to grab attention, but Jeanne was very quiet and barely even smiled. I wondered at the time if she thought the fans didn't care for her or if she was just holding back because there was very little attention paid to her character. 

Jeanne might also just be very low-key and not someone who tries to grab attention in settings like that. Although I got the impression the only people she seemed to bond with were Joe and Matthew. Its hard to tell what was going on. Maybe 10 years from now someone will do a tell-all or something and we'll find out more.

  • Love 2
normasm

normasm

Jeanne might also just be very low-key and not someone who tries to grab attention in settings like that. Although I got the impression the only people she seemed to bond with were Joe and Matthew. Its hard to tell what was going on. Maybe 10 years from now someone will do a tell-all or something and we'll find out more.

 

I believe the decision had already been made that she was out by the showing of 200. Half the attention she got as a cast member seemed to come because MGG was next to her and pulling her into the conversation from time to time. I've seen him do that for AJ in the past, too.

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

Yes, and think back to the pilot, Extreme Aggressor. Gideon had been on leave for 6 months for PTSD.

 

Speaking of Gideon and PTSD, The Fisher King is on ION right now, and Jason told Hotch that he had nothing left after that head was delivered to his door. Is that supposed to be a mitigating circumstance for him telling JJ to call that press conference, resulting in Elle nearly getting killed? More than that, Elle was in the room when he told JJ to get some reporters to come in. Granted, she was falling asleep because she hadn't slept since Hotch got her out of jail, but it makes even less sense that she'd blame Aaron for Garner shooting her.

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SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

I was watching, too. The Fisher King is one of my favorites. It occurred to me today for the first time that it didn't make sense for the unsub (although he was crazy) to have all those unattended candles lit all over his house when his family had been killed by a house fire and he suffered such extensive burns. But it's a minor point.

  • Love 2
JMO

JMO

Most things about The Fisher King don't make sense.  Yet it (part 2, especially) is a favorite for me as well.  I think it has just the right mix of everything-----while it's probably heavy on one or two characters, you don't notice it, because the time each one gets is quality time.  It speaks to each character's particular quirks, or strengths, or fears.  It integrates a recurring character (Diana) seamlessly.  Every character interaction is spot on, and evokes angst or humor.  Even the closing montage manages to do all those same things, in just a minute or so of time. 

 

I don't know how they did that, but I hope they can find a way to do it again!

  • Love 4
Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

(edited)

Well, The Boogey Man just ended, and say what you will about Elle and Lola Glaudini's acting possibly being questionable, but I always hate it when she leaves, awful haircut and all. But shut up, Gideon, you pompous idiot. It's easy for him to say that Hotch is doing the right thing, but he never takes responsibility for his own part in that mess. I wonder what he thought 'the right thing' would have been in his case. Pompous ass.

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
  • Love 6
SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

(edited)

Yeah, I hate what they did to Elle's character, too. It would have been better to have her killed by the unsub than have her go wacko, but I do like her parting line to Hotch.

 

Also, in watching those season 2 episodes on ION this week, it occurred to me that we could have picked apart many things in those episodes, but overall the writing was so much better than you let stuff slide. I mean really, if Elle was going to have PTSD, you'd think there would have been signs of it prior to Aftermath but you really didn't see anything. And she was just as compassionate as ever with the victims and as tough on the perpetrators. Again, I understand that they needed an excuse to write her out, but I wish it had been handled better.

Edited by SSAHotchner
  • Love 2
Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

Also, in watching those season 2 episodes on ION this week, it occurred to me that we could have picked apart many things in those episodes, but overall the writing was so much better than you let stuff slide.

 

And with that said, ya'll try not to pass out, 'cause I'm about to say something positive about JJ.

 

As much as I no longer buy the idea that JJ is empathetic, or even very warm, she was wonderfully sympathetic in ]North Mammon. She was worried about the missing girls, and even when she snapped at the group of quarreling parents, it was because she wanted them to be a united front in the interest of getting their daughters back. When she said that she not only knew girls like that, but that she was a girl like that, I believed her. Even though I still see the Mean Girl in her because of the thing about Comic Con, at the time that was counter-balanced with a compassion for innocent victims who were caught up in something that wasn't their fault. It was very well done.

  • Love 5
Old Dog

Old Dog

 

And with that said, ya'll try not to pass out, 'cause I'm about to say something positive about JJ.

 

As much as I no longer buy the idea that JJ is empathetic, or even very warm, she was wonderfully sympathetic in ]North Mammon. She was worried about the missing girls, and even when she snapped at the group of quarreling parents, it was because she wanted them to be a united front in the interest of getting their daughters back. When she said that she not only knew girls like that, but that she was a girl like that, I believed her. Even though I still see the Mean Girl in her because of the thing about Comic Con, at the time that was counter-balanced with a compassion for innocent victims who were caught up in something that wasn't their fault. It was very well done.

That was in a time long, long ago when JJ was a different person. I liked her in that as well, it was a powerful episode. It just highlights how criminal it is that they changed her so much.

  • Love 6
Danielg342

Danielg342

It perhaps could have worked better for JJ if the show took all of S7 to show her growth as a profiler with all the struggles that would be involved in that, instead of glossing over it with a few throwaway lines. Sure, it might have meant that JJ would be “the focus” of S7, but at least we'd have a believable and frankly more intriguing storylines than the “Supermom” stuff we get now.

  • Love 6
ForeverAlone

ForeverAlone

JJ was featured heavily in season seven, but she was just the super great, super badass profiler. So at least if they had shown her growth over season seven, it wouldn't have meant any more screen time for her, but a more realistic character arc (though I would probably still hate her from season nine on). 

 

And yeah, rewatching Rabid is rather weird to see the woman infected with rabies acting like she was a transplant from The Walking Dead. And the fact that this episode was one of the better ones of season nine (graded on a curve of course), tells you all you need to know about season nine. 

  • Love 3
normasm

normasm

And yeah, rewatching Rabid is rather weird to see the woman infected with rabies acting like she was a transplant from The Walking Dead. And the fact that this episode was one of the better ones of season nine (graded on a curve of course), tells you all you need to know about season nine. 

 

Yeah, I loved the male victim, but I just can't watch most of that, and i can't listen to the dog barking...

idiotwaltz

idiotwaltz

(edited)

I found the most fascinating thing about Rabid to be Morgan's comment that the UNSUB, at age 12, was old enough to have a "single-event imprint" and forever get off on people dying of rabies after watching his little brother die that way. I wonder how often it does happen in real life, not just to crazy serial killers but to regular people, like how this one thing from puberty will forever define your sexual preferences/proclivities forever. 

Edited by idiotwaltz
  • Love 2
SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

One of the good points about “Rabid” is that it was the first time (other than Reid) CM had a mixture of male and female victims and the “final victim” (who was saved) was a male. Previously they were all female.

I'm not sure I understand you. This certainly was not the first episode that had male and female victims. Just in season one alone there were more episodes that had both male and female victims than those with just female victims:

 

Compulsion

Won't Get Fooled Again

LDSK

The Fox

Natural Born Killer

Derailed

The Popular Kids

Blood Hungry

Poison

The Tribe

A Real Rain

Somebody's Watching

Secrets and Lies

The Fisher King

 

And that's just season one.

Danielg342

Danielg342

I'm not sure I understand you. This certainly was not the first episode that had male and female victims. Just in season one alone there were more episodes that had both male and female victims than those with just female victims:

Compulsion

Won't Get Fooled Again

LDSK

The Fox

Natural Born Killer

Derailed

The Popular Kids

Blood Hungry

Poison

The Tribe

A Real Rain

Somebody's Watching

Secrets and Lies

The Fisher King

And that's just season one.

My point was not that it was the first case with male and female victims. I know that there were many of them.

My point is this:

-The show, as we already know, will show multiple victims getting killed (or show us multiple bodies).

-However- and this was more prevalent in later seasons than in S1, which had escaped my mind- typically at the end of episodes there's one victim the team saves from the UnSub from getting killed.

-In episodes where the victims were both genders, almost always that last victim the team saves is a woman

-“Rabid”, however, is the first time since “A Real Rain” (I should amend my other post) where the last victim the team saves is a male.

  • Love 1
ForeverAlone

ForeverAlone

Hmmm...now you have intrigued me. No, the show doesn't typically save male damsels, because this show is definitely all about rescuing women. But since the vast majority of victims of serial killers are women, it is understandable. Here are some examples where the final victim saved was a male. As you can see, there aren't many.

 

Omnivore

Haunted

Risky Business

Into the Woods

Epilogue both male and female

There's No Place Like Home

Closing Time

The Lesson both male and female

Broken

Danielg342

Danielg342

(edited)

Hmmm...now you have intrigued me. No, the show doesn't typically save male damsels, because this show is definitely all about rescuing women. But since the vast majority of victims of serial killers are women, it is understandable. Here are some examples where the final victim saved was a male. As you can see, there aren't many.

Omnivore

Haunted

Risky Business

Into the Woods

Epilogue both male and female

There's No Place Like Home

Closing Time

The Lesson both male and female

Broken

Forgot about those. I will say I wouldn't count "The Lesson" or "Epilogue" as examples since they're not "single gender" examples, but that's semantics.

The other thing about "Rabid" too is that I believe it's the first attempt (in an omnivore setting) the show has made to have a male character play the victim from virtually the outset of when we see him- it's not like "Omnivore" where we discover at the last moment that the last victim is male or we don't see him until the final moment (like in "A Real Rain"). I think my point still holds that, more often than not, the woman gets saved ("Legacy", "Open Season", "To Hell...and Back", "Magnum Opus", "The Itch", "Scared to Death", "God Complex", "Parasite", "The Thirteenth Step", among others).

Not that I think the show's propensity for "final female victims" is inherently a bad thing- I found a lot of those episodes enjoyable, which is the main part. The only time I had an issue with victim selection was when it's obvious the show pandered to political correctness, as what we're seeing in S10 (and what we saw in the first half of S8) and the unbelievable amount of male victims (overpowered by females no less) that we've been seeing.

Edited by Danielg342
  • Love 1
ForeverAlone

ForeverAlone

Interesting that you so casually dismiss what I said, when in reality I was supporting your point.

If you are going to narrow your criteria to victims who were victims for the entire episode, your selection overall is going to get much smaller, because most episodes don't have a single victim held throughout the episode who needed to be saved in the end.

Danielg342

Danielg342

(edited)

Interesting that you so casually dismiss what I said, when in reality I was supporting your point.

If you are going to narrow your criteria to victims who were victims for the entire episode, your selection overall is going to get much smaller, because most episodes don't have a single victim held throughout the episode who needed to be saved in the end.

My apologies, ForeverAlone, I misread it. I liked “Rabid”, and I have a strong opinion on CM's portrayal of victims (since so many people get the wrong idea about CM) so I got defensive. Sorry. Edited by Danielg342
  • Love 1
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