The World of TVD: Still Need To Be Drunk To Understand This Story

[DigitalCount]

I figured that we should have a thread where we discuss how the world of TVD itself works, based on a discussion about Jeremy (what he is, how he's alive, etc) in particular, as well as some things that were set up for Tyler in the S5 finale. If anyone has a better idea for the title, we can go ahead and have it changed; I just thought that it was perhaps fitting.

Edited May 27, 2014 by DigitalCount

[fantique]

Looove the title. I have half a mind to start a drinking game with my friends for next season.

[Cattitude]

Where to begin is the problem with trying to dive into this topic. I can't fathom how even in one season the writers can't be a little more consistant. So I'll start with a very basic blunder that seems totally ridiculous to me.

 

I was rewatching the beginning of season 5 and b/c the traveler story was such crap I had a hard time following it anyway I missed this the first time. When Gregor passengered into Matt he didn't go out of his regular body. He was shown to be in Matt's head which blocked Silas but then later Nadia and Gregor in his body walked up to Silas and Nadia stabed Gregor in the neck. Later Nadia called Gregor out in Matt and Gregor was pissed Nadia buried his body. WTH? How did they go just a few months later to when travelers passengered into a person their body was dormant?

 

Other thing I'm having a really hard time with is Tyler in season 6 he is now supposed to be just a regular guy like Matt except he just has a werewolf gene untriggered. If Tyler died after Markos stripped him of magic down to when Klaus slit his throat, then he should have died with a TRIGGERED werewolf gene. When Klaus killed him he was an activated werewolf.

[DigitalCount]

Yeah, I'm not sure if there was supposed to be some magical element to Tyler's triggering; as I remember, he was forced to kill Sarah(?) when she was compelled to attack him at that masquerade ball. So he should still be a wolf, but for whatever reason they're treating him as untapped.

 

As for Gregor, maybe he was just...particularly talented at doing the passenger spell? Yeah, got nothing. That one specifically should have been caught, since it's the same season.

 

Speaking of travelers, I wish they had some other term for the supernatural acts they did, because it's really annoying to hear them harping on and on about witches when they're freaking witches. I mean, what's the difference between "spirit magic" and "pure" traveler magic? The only things we've seen them do are spells that witches either have done or can do just as easily.

[Jads]

Great title. One of my favourite lines from season 5!

I would also love to know the difference between spirit and pure magic. The spells are in different languages - one seems to be an East European language while the other is more latinate. However my guess is that the writers have no idea and we won't find out.

Tyler should be an activated werewolf. The gene has been triggered suggesting a biological not magical effect. Will Tyler revert back to his original human form ie a jackass with anger issues or will he have learnt from his experience? What I Jeremy these days?

One thing about the other side that bothers me -doppelgangers are supernatural even when human. Why when they die do they not go to the other side?

[2Old2BAFangirl]

 

When Gregor passengered into Matt he didn't go out of his regular body. He was shown to be in Matt's head which blocked Silas but then later Nadia and Gregor in his body walked up to Silas and Nadia stabed Gregor in the neck. Later Nadia called Gregor out in Matt and Gregor was pissed Nadia buried his body. WTH? How did they go just a few months later to when travelers passengered into a person their body was dormant?

 

As for Gregor, maybe he was just...particularly talented at doing the passenger spell? Yeah, got nothing.

 

Here goes my opinion on the Matt/Gregor thing.  You can decide for yourself if it holds up! LOL

 

Gregor was passengered into Matt.  We never saw his body after the initial passengering (love making up words!).  Silas caught Matt in the woods and Gregor passenger blocked him from mind controlling Matt.  Silas then killed Matt.  Matt's ring took him to the Other Side and sent Gregor's spirit or passenger self back to his dormant body.  Gregor then caught up with Nadia and together they faced down Silas in the 7-11. 

 

Crap.  That part makes sense to me but then, somehow, Gregor ended back up in Matt as a passenger again.  Um, well, nevermind then.  I don't have enough brain power to handwave how dead Gregor got passengered back into Matt.   I was SO good with it until that part!!  Guess I haven't had enough to drink yet! :)

[DigitalCount]

One thing about the other side that bothers me -doppelgangers are supernatural even when human. Why when they die do they not go to the other side?

Wait, which doppels have we seen who didn't go to the other side? Kat, Elena, Stefan, presumably Tom...I don't think Silas and Amara counted as doppels since they were the templates. My question regarding doppels is why they're RUINED FOREVER as supe jet fuel when they get vamped, but the Travelers can still use their blood for spells. Maybe it's because they cast using pure magic.

 

(Screw you, Travelers, for not only having your own convoluted mythology, but actually going back in time and screwing up previously-established stuff. And for not having a different term for your spells--even some nonsensical made-up word would be better--but that's the hidden aspie in me wanting to categorize everything, probably. Hopefully they'll retcon it like they retconned Silas being offended at being considered a vampire.)

 

Fangirl: I think it works, actually. Emily was able to possess Bonnie since jump street, so maybe some witches or travelers can just...do that. How Nadia knew he was capable of doing something he'd have to die in order to accomplish is another matter entirely, but maybe doing a passenger spell once leaves some tether in the person you were in so even if you die, you can come back through them. Kat showed that you have some control over your own spirit after death, but that could have just been Kat being a boss.

Edited May 29, 2014 by DigitalCount

[Jads]

Sorry, let me explain my doppelgangers and the other side 'issues'.

Amara and Silas are the original doppelgangers. Q Tessa creates the other side for dead supes. Silas gets in as a witch/traveller but somehow despite also being a Supe herself. Amara can't go to the other side. Tessa goes on and on about this. We know human doppelgangers are supernatural as when Elena stabs Alaric and he is wearing his ring, he comes back to life. Amara must also be supernatural and should go to the other side, rendering it entirely pointless as it's original point was to separate Silas and Amara.

Kat as a dead human Doppelganger gets sucked off into the vortex. This is where it gets really dumb. CD says in an interview that while Kat and vicky looked like they went to the same place, the audience were supposed to think it was 2 different places. Really? This is the person in charge.

The idea of poor Tom Avery wandering around the other side with his plate of waffles upsets me too much to wonder where he ended up!

Traveller mythology is just ridiculous, a stupid recon mess.

Edited May 30, 2014 by stacey
Merging split post

[2Old2BAFangirl]

Silas and Amara were not doppelgangers - they were humans.  Silas was a Traveler/witch so he was supernatural.  Amara was just a human handmaiden, not supernatural.  Qetsiyah used Amara as the anchor for her Other Side spell, but as soon as Q switched being the anchor to Bonnie, Amara was just a person again.

So, Silas would die and go to the Other Side but Amara would go to wherever regular humans go when they die.  That's my understanding anyway!

 

 

The idea of poor Tom Avery wandering around the other side with his plate of waffles

Haha!  That's a hilarious image!  He sure did enjoy those waffles, didn't he?! :)

[DigitalCount]

Wait, I didn't think Amara or Silas were capital-D Doppelgangers in the sense that they were super-blood-bags who people fall in love with. The "shadow selves" were created as a result of their immortality, so Amara likely did not have the associated supernatural properties. Silas got in because he's a witch, but he and Amara are only doppelgangers in the dictionary sense of the word, aren't they? They couldn't really be original doppelgangers because they weren't the product of someone else's use of the special elixir Q made.

 

EDIT: Stealth-Salvatore'd by Fangirl. That's pretty much my take on it too.

Edited May 29, 2014 by DigitalCount

[immortalfrieza]

Great title. One of my favourite lines from season 5!

I would also love to know the difference between spirit and pure magic. The spells are in different languages - one seems to be an East European language while the other is more latinate. However my guess is that the writers have no idea and we won't find out.

My guess? It's just two clans or whatever of witches that are drawing power from two different sources and calling theirs the valid one, but ultimately the two are basically the same thing, kinda like how ancestor magic in Originals is pretty much the same as nature magic in practice even if not in source.

 

 

Tyler should be an activated werewolf. The gene has been triggered suggesting a biological not magical effect. Will Tyler revert back to his original human form ie a jackass with anger issues or will he have learnt from his experience? What I Jeremy these days?

Depends. The werewolf gene has a biological component, but why would killing someone be necessary to use a natural ability? I'm guessing the activation of the werewolf gene is based around some magic curse or something, so if the magic leaves the gene deactivates.

Edited May 31, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[Jads]

That makes total sense, Thank you for explaining it. I guess bc Q used Amara's blood in the spell, I figured she must also have magical blood bag status. It makes sense that only kat and Elena are dictionary definition doppelgangers, she is the original.

[Cattitude]

So next round the craptastic travelers mulberry bush, who exactly was Markos and where did he come from(I mean orginally I know he came from TOS)?

 

So the travelers showed up when Silas was trying to end TOS. We know they were pissed at him for using the immortality spell. Even though the show didn't explain why I will extrapolate that the witches were pissed that Silas screwed with "the balance of nature" so that is why they put a spell on I guess Silas' coven and created travelers. That could explain that and then they must have also been pissed at Q-Tessa so that is why the travelers created that stupid doppelspelled thing where the doppelgangers are always drawn together to piss Q-Tessa off.

 

So here is the thing if Markos was dead A) how did any of the travelers know how to bring him back B)if he was there leader, then their leader from where and whenC) since travelers have a normal life span how come ridding the town of witch magic didn't kill him as he should have been long dead.

 

How were we supposed to care a fig for Markos as the big bad when we knew NOTHING about his back story he just randomly showed up?

[immortalfrieza]

How were we supposed to care a fig for Markos as the big bad when we knew NOTHING about his back story he just randomly showed up?

Considering how the writers handle backstories it's probably better that way. We don't need to know the entire life story of the next big bad, most especially we don't need the writers to try to humanize them. All we need to know is A) why this guy is bad and B) what bad thing he's trying to accomplish.

[Cattitude]

Well then I guess with Markos that just didn't make him scary enough. He was bad b/c he broke TOS and he came back to rid the world of witch magic.

 

Whereas Dr. Maxfield was bad b/c he torchered vampires to rid the world of vampires and that made him a good bad guy. I really didn't know his back story, but the writers did have him tell Katherine a little bit. Since he was a human it was pretty easy to guess most of his backstory without much details.

 

Markos OTOH just poof showed up? I haven't had a problem with the backstories per say it is more the consistency between stories. I usually like the backstories of Klaus, Katherine,Silas/Q-Tessa and the Salvatores. It is more making the supernatural shenanigans match the plot-of-the-moment that the writers usually muck the hell up.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

It took me way too much time to figure out what TOS meant!! LOL  I seriously had to think about it for a bit before I finally caught on!!  :)

 

I hope we never hear anything about Markos and the Travelers again!  I can only imagine the convoluted backstory they might have made up for Markos if they had bothered but I don't believe anything could've made Markos or his witch clan less of a snoozefest.  They were just terrible, IMO.

 

I think I got very spoiled with the villains in the first 3 seasons and S4 & S5 didn't even come close with Silas and then the Travelers.  We had Damon, tomb vamps, John Gilbert and then Katherine.  S2 we had Katherine, then Elijah, then Klaus.  S3 was mostly Klaus but they threw in Esther and the Evilaric at the end.  Those were all fun villains.

 

S4 had the Council for an episode, then Prof Shane, and then Silas.  Silas had potential to be decent but that all went away as soon as they had him be the originator of the doppelganger thing.  IMO, he had one thing he could do, mind control, everything else was lame.  Another lovestruck idiot who wasn't even as strong or fast as a regular vampire.

 

S5 we had Silas, then Qetsiyah/Tessa (I guess?), the Wes/Augustine experiments, then Katherine again (where she was totally ruined as another lovestruck idiot), then the Travelers.  Did I miss someone in there?  Does Damon count for those couple episodes?  Does Enzo count? 

 

To me, none of the big bads were interesting at all.  Some had potential but it seems like they added or dropped the villains to suit the irritatingly ridiculous Traveler storyline.  I wonder how they'll handle villains next season?  None from S5 should be crossing to S6 so maybe they'll do better?

[KatWay]

I agree about the villains in S4 and S5 being a bust, but sadly I don't see that improving next season either. The overall quality was notably worse in these two seasons as well, and it's been steadily declining for a while now. The world of this show makes no sense to me. It also doesn't help that they keep retconning stuff or pulling fake-outs. When they revealed that the sun-and-moon curse was a fake I thought that was very clever. They tried to do it this season with the doppelganger thing, but that never made sense in the first place and it made even less sense after the reveal. For one, there never actually seemed to be a prophecy, only Tessa's drunken ramblings. And second, then Markos said they made it up to get the doppelgangers to seek each other out (to find their soulmater, but really to make it easier for the travellers to find them), which is even dumber because nobody had ever even heard of that prophecy. So how was that ever supposed to work? And this "destined to be together" crap, when NONE of the doppelgangers had ever ended up together, at least not the ones we know. It took Katherine three hundred freaking years to even meet another doppelganger and then she promptly banged his brother. I mean, destiny? What? That whole thing seemed like a really cheap ploy to handwave away the Stelena connection by saying they were only together through magic but Elena and Damon were defying the universe by staying together! Team Free Will and all. Well, whatever magic the travellers weaved it was pretty damn shoddy. 

[DigitalCount]

C) since travelers have a normal life span how come ridding the town of witch magic didn't kill him as he should have been long dead.

Because he didn't use witch magic, he used pure magic.

*shoots Markos*

[Jads]

I have another other side question (yes I am totally obsessed, I want to know what happened to them all :) ).

Supes on the other side couldn't see or speak to each other. So how were the witches talking? They were doing it in other seasons so it wasn't just when TOS was falling apart. Also how was Tessa supposed to get it on with Silas if they couldn't see each other? That was her plan wasn't it?

I always feel a bit sad that Alaric and Lexi didn't hang out together on TOS while keeping an eye on the Salvatores.

[Carrie Ann]

OK, I don't remember everything exactly, but I think the spirits do see each other and can communicate on the TOS. But it's hard to find people (Anna and Pearl, sob), and it's not constant.

 

So maybe the witches, over 2,000 years or whatever, have found ways to stay close to each other. Like, maybe that's why their spirits need to be consecrated to the Earth (or whatever it was Sophie wanted to do with her sister's body on The Originals), or why when they die, especially en masse, that physical place is suffused with magic. And TOS was built with magic, so it would make sense that witches might have a little easier time working the system over there.

[Jads]

That's how I originally saw it Carrie Ann, but then it seemed to be retconned into more of a solitary place. I guess it was Kol saying to Matt "it's good to be seen" in 5x18 that threw me. I can believe that the witches would find a way around it even if traveller magic was used to create it. Maybe I need to watch the Originals, I am not sure I can deal with any more Plec rubbish in my life. Do you think things on TVD make more sense if you watch OT?

I loved Anna and Pearls Story and felt really satisfied with the way it turned out for them *sob*

[KatWay]

I'm pretty sure it really only depended on what the plot required. Sometimes the Other Side was this solitary, awful place (which also really does not make the MF gang look good for keeping it up just to keep Bonnie around), other times it was just kinda there and people were merrily plotting away there.

 

Or that whole "finding peace" business while others got sucked into the darkness. Why couldn't Vicki find peace? She seemed pretty okay in her last conversations with Matt. And why was Katherine directly sucked into it without going through Bonnie first? Aside from the fact that they wanted a cool exit scene. What was it that Caroline Dries so eloquently said "it's kind of the same, but totally different" or whatever. So basically, they're just making it up as they go along.

 

Like the doppelganger lore (prophecy! fake prophecy!), or the cure, or the sire bond (it's so rare it happened to Damon TWICE), or the Augustine plot (I mean...really), or whatever. Seriously, nothing on this show withstands even the tiniest bit of scrutiny. I miss Joss Whedon. For all his faults, he usually thought things through and when there were twists I felt like they'd been long planned instead of "we just came up with this two episodes ago! - Plec, Dries".

[Carrie Ann]

And why was Katherine directly sucked into it without going through Bonnie first? Aside from the fact that they wanted a cool exit scene. What was it that Caroline Dries so eloquently said "it's kind of the same, but totally different" or whatever. So basically, they're just making it up as they go along.

Maybe Katherine got sucked into The Great Somewhere Else because of the thing Grams did for Bonnie. Because of doppelganger magic! And because then Katherine can still exist somewhere! And Bonnie and Damon will find her when they get there, and a new OT3 is born!

 

OK, Dries and Plec, I'm gonna just give you this crack!theory and you can take it and pretend it was your plan all along.

[Cattitude]

I have another other side question (yes I am totally obsessed, I want to know what happened to them all :) ).

Supes on the other side couldn't see or speak to each other. So how were the witches talking? They were doing it in other seasons so it wasn't just when TOS was falling apart. Also how was Tessa supposed to get it on with Silas if they couldn't see each other? That was her plan wasn't it?

I always feel a bit sad that Alaric and Lexi didn't hang out together on TOS while keeping an eye on the Salvatores.

I was rewatching season 5(I know don't judge mukay) and when Matt got killed by Sherriff Forbes and saw that creepy guy in the graveyard he asked if the guy could see him, the guy said yes, then he asked if the guy was a witch and he said no.

Matt seemed totally surpised by this. I take that to mean since the witches made TOS they must be able to talk to each other. Since Silas and Tessa were witches then they would be able to find each other. It was only other supernatural beings that were in solitude. Which I guess goes back to what bitches witches are. It seems totally rude they would not allow other supernaturals to communicate too.

[Jads]

Hey Cat -I'm not judging. After all, you are saving me from having to re watch ;)

The Matt bit makes sense. Thank you! TOS was just rubbish for non witch supes. Tessa and Silas were travellers (I think). I am surprised they didn't stamp all over the witchy communication.

Was TOS blue in that episode? I seem to remember it in 5x18, but not before. I wonder if it was PW's idea?

[lion10]

I'd really like the writers to flesh out the inherent nature of vampires a bit more and what vampire society looks like.  Are most vampires loners like Stefan and Damon or is Marcel's "kingdom" more the norm?  Due to a vampire's natural love of murder, are vampire societies unstable?

[immortalfrieza]

As long as they can avoid drawing World Of Darkness parallels in the process I'm all for it, but Marcel's "kingdom" is already doing that too much as it is.

[lion10]

 

As long as they can avoid drawing World Of Darkness parallels in the process I'm all for it, but Marcel's "kingdom" is already doing that too much as it is.

Really?  How so?  Is it because of the different factions of supernatural creatures vying for control of New Orleans?  Because one reason why I currently like the Originals more than TVD is because of the constant interaction and uneasy coexistence of the different supes.

[immortalfrieza]

Really?  How so?  Is it because of the different factions of supernatural creatures vying for control of New Orleans?  Because one reason why I currently like the Originals more than TVD is because of the constant interaction and uneasy coexistence of the different supes.

How Marcel's kingdom worked just seems to remind me a little too often of the World of Darkness that's all.

[Anela]

I've just watched the finale, and I'm more confused than ever. Nina did get me with the tears again, but I was quickly back to wondering just how/why the other side was falling apart, and how the story got so convoluted, when there was enough drama with them as high school kids. Originals, hybrids, rings that bring people back from the dead, triangles of doom, travellers, doppelgangers...

[Cattitude]

I've just watched the finale, and I'm more confused than ever. Nina did get me with the tears again, but I was quickly back to wondering just how/why the other side was falling apart, and how the story got so convoluted, when there was enough drama with them as high school kids. Originals, hybrids, rings that bring people back from the dead, triangles of doom, travellers, doppelgangers...

I hear ya. I never did understand how Bonnie dropping the vail and letting all the sups out, Q-Tessa coming back, changing anchors from Amara to Bonnie all didn't "break" TOS but Markos coming back did? Seemed totally confusing that suddenly after all TOS shenanigans it was NOW coming undone.

[DigitalCount]

Maybe it was a last-straw thing. Like just the extra minute of keeping your face in that weird position even after your mother told you not to; that last minute was what made it stay that way.

 

Also, the Travelers seemed to do some travmagic spell to make it possible for Markos to get back that also involved their deaths in mass numbers (now that makes me wonder what Amara must have been going through when they killed Kol) so it's possible that had something to do with it. Furthermore, transferring the anchor position from an Immortal to a zombie seems like not exactly the best investment in the world if you're looking for longevity.

[Cattitude]

Maybe it was a last-straw thing. Like just the extra minute of keeping your face in that weird position even after your mother told you not to; that last minute was what made it stay that way.

 

Also, the Travelers seemed to do some travmagic spell to make it possible for Markos to get back that also involved their deaths in mass numbers (now that makes me wonder what Amara must have been going through when they killed Kol) so it's possible that had something to do with it. Furthermore, transferring the anchor position from an Immortal to a zombie seems like not exactly the best investment in the world if you're looking for longevity.

Well I'm glad you were able to make sense of it, I take it you're drunk tonight?>wink<

[KatWay]

 

Maybe when you become a vampire, part of your psyche is frozen at the age you were when you were turned. I don't know.

They sure seem that way IMO. None of them exhibit much in the way of growth actually. They may change their ways and revise their approach to murdering people, but their personalities stay exactly the same, which is ridiculous really. I know I change every year, and I sure as hell hope that when I'm old I won't still be stuck in my teenage personality or my early twenties personality. Life experience should count for something.

 

But this is something that bothers me immensely about the TVD world. In the early seasons being a vampire was still considered to be less desireable than being human, except by some vamps themselves. Then it totally changed and became all: vampirism is awesome! you're hot and young 4ever! party hard wooo!

 

The show doesn't acknowledge (or even consciously portray IMO) that there is something very tragic about vampires. Just look at them, forever frozen in that one moment when they died, they will always stay more or less the same, they will never really experience what it means to be changed by your life circumstances, because they just flitter through life, time periods, friend circles and it makes absolutely no difference to them. Everything is so easy for them, if they want something/don't like something, they just compel their problem away. Or kill it. That is why Klaus/Elijah/Rebekah are STILL stuck in that same sibling rivalry/guilt/resentment circle after a thousand years (seriously how messed up can you even be) and why Damon and Stefan likely also will never get over their differences. Elena and Caroline are kind of pitiful as well - they go to college but it means nothing. They will never need an education, or a job, they just play at being students. Elena will always be selfish and flaky, because she doesn't need to change, because nothing can happen to her to change her. And honestly, if the show ends with Elena dating one brother while the other is still alive and they're all still vampires, why should I even buy that this is the choice that sticks? She's made like four different ones t just in the course of two years. 

 

I may hate Elena now but I still want for her what she said in S2, being human and growing old and growing up.

[Jads]

I'm sure you won't be stuck with a younger personality, Kat way. Take it from someone who is somewhat older than the TVD Target demographic ;)

My era is more Interview with a vampire and Gary Oldman as Dracula. Vampires were tragic, living on the edge of society and hiding in the shadows. In early seasons, at least there was some acknowledgment of the limitations of being a vampire with Caroline not being able to be with Matt, Stefan's blood issues and Damon's killing sprees that needed to be covered up.

Caroline and Elena heading to college could have been used to illustrate their limitations of their vampire lives. It looks like they have killed that sl off though.

PW made a pretty astute comment about how Stefan and Damon could be working on world peace, but instead they are arguing over an 18 year old girl, a pattern they have been repeating for 150 years! Maybe S6 will be all about character growth, fingers crossed.

[scarynikki12]

 

psychologically happens to someone when they live for 1000+ years but they have the body of a young immortal.

From what I've seen, they remain emotionally immature as well and think that proms are the greatest thing that could ever happen in life.

 

I agree that it's completely crazy that the show treats being a vampire as anything other than a horror movie ending for humans.  It makes sense that the actual vampires love their status, as no one even bothers to object to them eating and abusing humans anymore, but there needs to be some recognition within the show that becoming a vampire is worse than death.  Elena made noises about wanting children one day, but she hasn't mentioned that since she turned and I fully expect the show to come up with some magical way around that if they so chose, so that isn't a deterrent.  

 

The way the show has presented vampires, I can't figure out why every human in the know isn't rushing to join them.  They live forever, it's damn near impossible to kill them, they have mind control powers, they move at superhuman speed, they have magical healing, they don't need money, they all seem to now have daylight rings, witches always bow to their will, and they always win against other supernatural beings.  The only downside would be drinking blood, but they get over that as soon as they complete the transition.  Humans, on the other hand, are guaranteed to die, are slow and weak, depend on money to survive, and are are unable to defend themselves against supernatural oppression.  On this show, being a vampire is what everyone should aspire to and being human is the fate worse than death.  It should really be the other way since vampires aren't actually real (even though I often wonder if the producers secretly hope they are, watch the show, and will one day show up to turn them).

[scarynikki12]

I brought up the Salvatores being slave owners while they were alive during the Civil War in the Damon thread and I have more thoughts but in a general show sense, so here I am.

 

When the show starts, I think the Civil War era was originally going to play into the show more than it did.  There's no other reason to change the Salvatores' background from Renaissance Italy to Civil War Virginia than to explore how the past would inform the present.  They did explore that angle a bit with the Founders and vampires, but there was so much more that was never explored and it would have been amazing television.  

 

The modern Founder's Council still being all white, Bonnie's family still being one of two or three black families in the whole town (based on the casting choices for speaking parts and extras) and with no political power, the celebrations of the specific Civil War related events rather than coming up with new ones, Emily clearly being Katherine's slave, her death by fire clearly being an example of post-Civil War lynching, Damon being a Confederate soldier, the Salvatores owning a large and prosperous plantation with countless slaves, exactly no one voicing an objection to slavery in the past or present (especially once they learn that the Salvatores are vampires who are actual former slave owners rather than descendants of slave owners like most of them were), the guarantee that every non-Bonnie black character would end up dead in a violent way, the old slave cellars still existing on the Lockwood property, the tomb vampires still looking down upon the one former slave among them, the fact that there are plenty in the real life South who want to return to the slave days, and so on all could have contributed to a really interesting story centered around race relations then and now with a supernatural twist.  

 

It did feel like the show wanted to explore this theme in the first season but then Williamson left and everyone forgot all about the Civil War part of the Salvatores' backstory.  There's honestly a story in Damon and Stefan once owning slaves and still treating the black characters as if they are beneath them but the show will not acknowledge that.  I always think of the first season of True Blood, where Tara was allowed to voice how gross it was that Bill once owned slaves and that their town refers to their ancestors as the "Glorious Dead".  The show also moved away from that after the first season, and has since been just as bad when it comes to treatment of the black characters, but it was at least voiced which is more than this show can say.  There's so much potential that was sacrificed on the altar of both the Triangle of Doom and the Originals, though at least the latter could have contributed to an exploration of race since Klaus was an actual slave master on the show and his siblings showed no issue with that.

[Bitterswete]

The problem is that for obvious reasons, we have no idea what psychologically happens to someone when they live for 1000+ years but they have the body of a young immortal.

 

It's true nobody knows what it's like to be 1000+ years old and trapped in a young body. But a good writer can sort of imagine what that would be like, and communicate that in their story. Sort of the same way they do with vampires, aliens, etc. 

 

Of course, a lot depends on whether the writers are actually interested in exploring issues like what living for centuries in a young body would be like. And I don't think the TVD writers are.

 

Maybe they grow detached from humanity or maybe you always stay engaged and interested in things.

 

The Highlander did both, which I think made sense. Some Immortals were cold and detached (even monstrous, in some cases), and didn't think mortals were worth much. Other Immortals were engaged and involved, didn't look down on mortals, and still had a desire to learn, help, experience things, etc. Basically, Immortals were treated as individuals. So one 1000 year old Immortal being one way didn't mean another would be the same way. It all depended on the kind of people they were, their life experiences, how they reacted to those experiences, etc.

 

The Highlander is probably why the Originals being 1000+ years old didn't blow my mind. Because some Immortals are two or three times older (if not more), so I'm used to the idea of characters being so old I can barely comprehend it.

[lion10]

Did the tomb vampires look down on Harper?  I don't really remember much about them other than Pearl was the leader and when he first saw her he called her "Miss Pearl".  When was Klaus a slave master?  I'm pretty sure he didn't own slaves in New Orleans. 

[scarynikki12]

A few of them looked at him with disdain and spoke to him as if he were beneath him.

The hybrids were all sire bonded to Klaus when turned, completely powerless to go against his orders, didn't want to be his slaves and were murdered when they managed to break free. He also relished having slaves, which tells me that he has no issue with the concept and probably even owned human slaves once upon a time like the Salvatores and the Lockwood, Gilbert, and Forbes ancestors. I doubt the spinoff would ever bring it up though Klaus would absolutely have owned them while in pre-Civil War New Orleans. He has no issue with slavery in modern times so there's no reason to think he would have when it was popular.

[Bitterswete]

Smallville once did an episode that touched on the plight of illegal immigrants. And, when it was over, I really wished they hadn't. Not because I don't think it's an issue that should be explored in fiction. But Smallville, with the kind of writing it had, was not the show to be doing it.

 

I feel the same way about TVD. A show about vampires who lived in the same era as Stefan and Damon, that really delved into the era they were raised in, explores how issues from the past affect them in the present and so on could be very interesting. But the thought of TVD actually trying to do that makes me cringe so hard.

 

I mean, they can barely handle simple stuff like creating good character arcs, developing the relationships between the characters, etc. And I'm supposed to expect them to handle some really deep and delicate issue well?

 

I think exploring some issues in fiction can be a good thing. But some shows just aren't good enough to do certain issues justice. And I'd rather a show stay away from certain subjects than handle them badly.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Bitterswete

[immortalfrieza]

From what I've seen, they remain emotionally immature as well and think that proms are the greatest thing that could ever happen in life.

 

I agree that it's completely crazy that the show treats being a vampire as anything other than a horror movie ending for humans.  It makes sense that the actual vampires love their status, as no one even bothers to object to them eating and abusing humans anymore, but there needs to be some recognition within the show that becoming a vampire is worse than death.  Elena made noises about wanting children one day, but she hasn't mentioned that since she turned and I fully expect the show to come up with some magical way around that if they so chose, so that isn't a deterrent.  

 

The way the show has presented vampires, I can't figure out why every human in the know isn't rushing to join them.  They live forever, it's damn near impossible to kill them, they have mind control powers, they move at superhuman speed, they have magical healing, they don't need money, they all seem to now have daylight rings, witches always bow to their will, and they always win against other supernatural beings.  The only downside would be drinking blood, but they get over that as soon as they complete the transition.  Humans, on the other hand, are guaranteed to die, are slow and weak, depend on money to survive, and are are unable to defend themselves against supernatural oppression.  On this show, being a vampire is what everyone should aspire to and being human is the fate worse than death.  It should really be the other way since vampires aren't actually real (even though I often wonder if the producers secretly hope they are, watch the show, and will one day show up to turn them).

I'd say that I like the fact that the writers do this, more or less. I'd expect a race of immortal beings after a thousand years or so to solve any real issues they have to deal with by then, but I do agree that the writers seem to take it too far and make being a vampire have NO downsides whatsoever. The only real downside presented seems to be a lack of control over their own impulses and the fact that they seem to go completely sociopathic in the event they turn their emotions off, except for Caroline apparently, but both seem to get glossed over in the show anyway.

[KatWay]

I remember when I applauded this show for Elena's teary speech in S2 that she wanted to grow old, because this was the exact opposite of what Twilight did so badly (Bella whining for ages about how she didn't want to be ooooold and why wouldn't Edward just turn her already). 

 

I feel like once Kevin Williamson left the writers just completely abandoned that and now it's basically all immortals are super cool, we are all so much better now that we're vampires. Really, the only character who improved after being turned was Caroline and that was because of the narrative: she suddenly had agency and could contribute to the plot in more meaningful ways than before. That's why she's more awesome. It's not because becoming a vampire does anything good for the characters, it just means they can be involved in the plot!twist!action!drama better, because really with the exception of Elena this show has never been interested in the slightest in any character who's not a vampire (Bonnie, Jeremy, Matt, Tyler).

Edited June 28, 2014 by KatWay

[scarynikki12]

Did Elena have the darkness in her from the get go

I definitely think so, it's what was always lurking beneath her "Good Person" facade. When she became a vampire it was far more apparent, just like Damon, as we saw from the reactions of Matt and Bonnie.

[Luciano]

From the 06.01 episode thread:

But...wasn't that the case with Klaus? He was a normal human, then his mother did the vampire spell on the entire family, and after he killed someone as a vampire, that's when Klaus' werewolf gene was triggered. At least I think I remember that correctly. So, in theory, a human with an inactive werewolf gene could be turned into a vampire, but as soon as they made a kill, they'd become a hybrid. Which may or may not cause them to die. They'd stay a regular vampire if they somehow managed to keep themselves alive without murdering anyone (which, given the past five seasons of this show, not gonna happen).

I think the only reason Klaus turned out the way he did (and was able to make his army) was because of the spell. I remember when he was first trying to create hybrids, they kept dying because he was missing a step (the doppelganger blood) so that particular transition wasn't just about creature biting creature. Esther's spell made it so that Klaus couldn't easily create more hybrids. Maybe she just completely made vampirism and lycanthropy incompatible with each other (with the exception of that Klaus/doppelganger loophole), causing those fatally unstable hybrids.

Hope Mikaelson would be another loophole.

[Murcielago]

From the 06.01 episode thread:

I think the only reason Klaus turned out the way he did (and was able to make his army) was because of the spell. I remember when he was first trying to create hybrids, they kept dying because he was missing a step (the doppelganger blood) so that particular transition wasn't just about creature biting creature. Esther's spell made it so that Klaus couldn't easily create more hybrids. Maybe she just completely made vampirism and lycanthropy incompatible with each other (with the exception of that Klaus/doppelganger loophole), causing those fatally unstable hybrids.

Hope Mikaelson would be another loophole.

 

I had thought of that, but I'm wondering if the order of the transformation matters. We only saw Klaus try to turn people whose werewolf gene had already been triggered. I don't think we ever saw him turn someone that he knew had the gene, but hadn't activated it yet. Maybe that's another loophole. If you turn an existing werewolf (without using doppleganger/miracle baby blood), they die, but if someone is a vampire first, then triggers their lycanthropy, maybe they'd survive? They've probably already shot down that possibility on one of the shows and it's just slipping my mind or something.

[Luciano]

My theory is that an inactive werewolf can become a vampire but as soon as the gene gets triggered, s/he becomes unstable or one supernatural aspect overtakes the other. I'm just basing it on the fact that another potential hybrid (vampire/witch) appears not to be possible (Abby Bennett) and that time Elijah stated that Nature would not stand for the imbalance of power.

The other two major beings (witch and werewolf) appear to be genetic, while vampirism appears to be an outlier and perversion that pissed off the Spirits enough to give add consequences to Esther's original spell. Hybridization would too easily throw off the balance of nature, so it would make sense that it would be a extremely difficult thing to do and it would involve all the major beings (a human doppelganger, a werewolf, a hybrid using the vampire powers given to him through a witch's spell). It would fit with why the witches were trying to eliminate Hope - she's too powerful and now there is a genetic hybrid (tribid?) in the mix that is showing the abilities of multiple supernatural creatures.

It's just my theory, though, and I do wish they made it clearer.

[lion10]

The Originals is really a more mature iteration of Vampire Diaries, I'm surprised it's on CW because Davina is the only teenage character.  Everyone else is an adult and actually acts like it.  And it's depiction of vampirism puts more emphasis on the predatory nature of vampires and how vampires tend to die brutally.  In an earlier episode, Klaus mentions how vampires tend to be loners and inherently unstable creatures (he was comparing them to werewolves).  So I think Julie Plec purposefully dumbs down the morality of the Vampire Diaries.

[Lisin]

Someone brought up their fear of Alaric being killed (again) and it made me remember I'm forgetting who has the rings... so Matt has one now and Jeremy has one? Or did Jeremy give his to Matt? If so who has the other one? I forget! 

[Smug47]

Ric's is gone for the Son of White Oak Stake, and I thought I saw Matt wearing one in an episode a while back, I think that one is the Gilbert ring. They should address this, do these rings even work now that the other side is gone, or can they be enchanted to do something else?