Spoiler Discussion Thread

[AyChihuahua]

They're in the process of getting back together soon after?

The atmosphere was way too icy for that.

 

I think they MIGHT not end the season together. I'd be more sure if this show didn't have a habit of tacking on happy endings that make no sense to season finales.

[Morrigan2575]

Not for nothing but i think people are spending way to much time analyzing stuff to try and figure it out when they're just going to pull it out of their ass like usual.

The flowers, the limo, the grave stone, Barry's, Oliver's, Felicity's reactions etc. They're designed to keep people guessing but reveal nothing. It's all generic.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[tangerine95]

This episode didn't really change my mind about Laurel being in the grave.Still think its her.Felicity's reaction seemed to fit that imo though I think they try to keep them vague mostly.I mean Felicity had a strong reaction to Sara dying,stronger then I thought she would considering they weren't shown as all that close.And they had Diggle name his kid after Sara which made no sense to me since they barely had scenes.They are selling the whole team as close friends however unearned some of those friendships might be.

And is Wendy admiting Felicity can walk in the flash forward?they keep saying it has a timetable of four months and she's talking about it like we know its not permanent.

Pretty sure they are back together by the end of the season though but as expected there's a break up.I think the scene in the limo is misleading on how bad things are betwen them at that moment to keep people guessing.

Edited January 21, 2016 by tangerine95

[Chaser]

Not for nothing but i think people are spending way to much time analyzing stuff to try and figure it out when they're just going to pull it out of their ass like usual.

The flowers, the limo, the grave stone, Barry's, Oliver's, Felicity's reactions etc. They're designed to keep people guessing but reveal nothing. It's all generic.

Logically I agree with you. However I will jump on anything that points to RIP Buckles.

[Morrigan2575]

I kind of don't want them back together by the end of the season. Frankly I think Felicity deserve better then the way Oliver treats her.

[Chaser]

I was hoping they would flip the script and we would see Oliver being there for her, but if this is any indication it isn't going to happen.

[tangerine95]

I think he will be there for her.Reading all the interviews after the episode thats what Wendy is saying so I expect to see that and more focus on Felicity'a reaction in the next few episodes.I did want him to be with her the entire time and to see that more then all the action we got but I knew on this show it wasn't going to happen.

I wasn't expecting them to just have her awake though.I was expecting the episode to be all about will she survive or to have her in a coma.It didn't really feel like they were selling it as Felicity is dying at all.

Edited January 21, 2016 by tangerine95

[calliope1975]

I was hoping they would flip the script and we would see Oliver being there for her, but if this is any indication it isn't going to happen.

 

But didn't you read WM's statement? The flipped script was that Felicity wasn't upset he wasn't there because she understands him. My eyeballs rolled out of my head so hard I'm still looking for them.

[Chaser]

I'm confused about next week. I thought it was supposed to be Diggle-centric, but the preview seemed Felicity heavy. 

 

Honestly, I didn't want an episode focused on Felicity right off the bat. I wanted it to marinate a bit. Little moments here and there, leading to 4x13 with her father. I'm concerned about them wrapping everything with her injury in a little bow by 4x11. Then Daddy Issues in 4x13. Then BMD later on. It sounds like a plotting nightmare.

[AyChihuahua]

I was hoping they would flip the script and we would see Oliver being there for her, but if this is any indication it isn't going to happen.

I feel like a maybe unintentional underlying theme this season is that Oliver is still Ollie in ways we didn't really notice before. At least I didn't notice. Like sure, he still got around a bit, but nothing like Ollie, and there wasn't even a whiff of cheating. But the lying (with grotesque post-lie boob-snuggling) and self-centeredness is really very Ollie. That dude was all about himself and his own wants and needs. This guy who's all about his need to move and beat up people and get revenge and blah blah blah while the supposed love of his life is laying mostly alone with very serious injuries (were there even any guards other than heart-issues Quentin?) because he just couldn't find it in himself to be what SHE needed, when she was the one seriously hurt? That's Ollie. That goes way beyond avoidance bc of all the feels and into just plain thoughtless shitty self-centered behavior.

But didn't you read WM's statement? The flipped script was that Felicity wasn't upset he wasn't there because she understands him. My eyeballs rolled out of my head so hard I'm still looking for them.

And that's the problem: they don't get that this stuff is a problem, so they won't fix it. Guggie didn't think his lying was even lying. This shit is pretty much deifying Felicity (which is one of the reasons I needed her to dump him...I can't love a saint). If they don't see the problem they're obviously not going to fix it. So yeah, I'm pretty much expecting more manpain bc of her injury. 35/65 split, at best 40/60.

Edited January 21, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Scribbles]

The sizzle reel gave me three bits to pull me in and watch for more.  1. Katana fighting a female ....just love Katana (and am really confused why Katana would be in that Suicide Movie upcoming) 2.  Shadow/Shadow's Twin appearing again. 3.  Malcolm's line to Oliver about being pretty face but stupid....

 

Side notes:

1.  I have followed the comments about the Baby Mama drama and see other ways out of it that interviews with WM make unlikely.  For example, Baby Mama saw the engagement announcement and says Oliver can tell Felicity since this is not just another of his gals.  Oliver tells and explains the delay, Felicity buys it but has big issues with what him being a father should mean/require.  I know everyone else posting seems to think his not telling Felicity is just a horrible lie, I just don't see it the same.  Why someone lies or fails to state a truth matters.  Having to choose between seeing a son you just found you have or not being able to if you are honest is not an easy place to be.  He wanted to tell and was left in a terrible place.  It doesn't look like they will provide an out and want it to be a break up to stall thing and that annoys me.

2.  Have they confirmed Caclulator is Felcity's dad?  Could he just be one more step in clues to that reveal?

3.  Blood on Laurel's hands in the sizzle...

4.  Did MG say that Felicity hallucinates?  Can quitting team be part of that in addition to the Goth appearance?

5.  Lyla shot in the sizzle????

So much with so many balls in the air.

[wonderwall]

This makes me very hopeful for 411

 

[Chaser]

BMD is in the police station. Kind of confirms they take the kid. 

[apinknightmare]

Can't wait to see how that turns out. If she doesn't take the kid and leave forever after that, then...what a moron.

Edited January 21, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

I am guessing Thea being in the hospital again may lead to Laurel/Malcolm/Roy/??? all being in one big scene together.

[wonderwall]

Can't wait to see how that turns out. If she doesn't take the kid and leave forever after that, then...what a moron.

I will literally only accept this storyline if they disappear forever afterwards

[Guest]

Wow. They take the kid. It's like no one thought that would happen.

 

OMG. When did this show become so predictable?! LOL.

[calliope1975]

I will literally only accept this storyline if they disappear forever afterwards

 

FOREVER. And part of the new conditions are they are never to be mentioned again. Just a bad dream. Connor (I refuse to use actual names because I am petty) can return two years after Arrow has been canceled. I accept nothing more. 

[wonderwall]

Wow. They take the kid. It's like no one thought that would happen.

 

OMG. When did this show become so predictable?! LOL.

 

They managed to surprise us this episode at least ;) You know the streak can't last too long!

[wonderwall]

I'm liking everything I'm reading here. Hopefully the execution is as good as what she says

 

[statsgirl]

Is it DD or Anarky who takes the kid?  DD just gave Oliver a month off to spend with his family.

And how would they know it's Oliver's kid?  Although it does seem to be DD's M.O. to go after family members rather than the foe himself.

 

Not really her relationship with Oliver, that doesn't come into question

Except for the part where they  break up.....

The flowers at the gravesite do not keep it from being Donna, because these writers don't give two shits about being accurate or culturally sensitive to anything.

 

Beth Schwartz is the resident expert on things Jewish; she was teaching EBR about what Felicity would do.

 

Having said that, I can totally believe they would ditch the 'no flowers' rule to keep us guessing.

Since Olicity's broken up, why are they riding in the same car? I know the practical, filming Show reasons, but what would be the in-show reasoning?

1. Supporting each other through the funeral and gravesite

     or

2. Felicity still can't walk and Oliver was giving her a ride.

 

But the real reason is so that we can knock off Felicity off the grave list, and to show that they do break up for some reason this season.

[wonderwall]

Except for the part where they  break up.....

 

The wheelchair won't affect how they see one another, but Oliver's lies definitely will. The question was about how O/F would deal with her being in a wheelchair :) 

[hogwash]

Then kid and BM go into witness/Argus/whatever protection and are never heard from again?? Y/Y??

[statsgirl]

 

The real reason is we felt that we raised that question in 4x09 and put it to bed at the top of 4x10, and there really wasn’t much to be done in continuing to ask that question with respect to that character in particular. The other reason is, it was important to us to show that this loss that we’re headed for has an impact not just on Oliver, but on a lot of people. It’s going to be a big shock and a big game-changer, and it’ll have an impact on Felicity as well.

That suggests to me that it's not Donna because she wouldn't affect "a lot of people", nor would she be a big game-changer.

[wonderwall]

That suggests to me that it's not Donna because she wouldn't affect "a lot of people", nor would she be a big game-changer.

I trust Wendy more when she says game-changer. 

 

Game-changer to me doesn't mean anyone outside of Team Arrow. 

 

So I think it's going to be either Thea, Diggle, or Laurel. 

 

Thea is out because she's most likely going to be in a coma during that time, so we're left with the token PoC who serves an important role in Oliver's life and development and the most useless character on the show but hey she's in the comics!

[EmeraldArcher]

Looking at the height of the window behind her, it certainly looks like she's standing up. Very odd.

@kismet - obviously this is TV not real life but i was curious as to your take on the paralysis explanation. Is/would Nerve damage be something hopeless as they're making it out to be?

I'm not @kismet or in the medical field, but unfortunately I know more than I want to about nerve damage and spine injuries. I've recently undergone diagnosis for "incomplete quadriplegia," which is a term for a spinal injury that exists on a spectrum of severity and symptoms. No two cases are the same, and because the cord isn't completely severed, there can eventually be healing. Although I haven't experienced paralysis, I do have mobility issues due to decreased coordination, peripheral neuropathies causing severe pain in my extremities, and impaired autonomic functioning, which causes dangerous drops in blood pressure, palpitations, sudden pulmonary distress, digestion and elimination problems, difficulty controlling body temperature, and other problems. I've had spine surgery in the last few years and undergo PT for several months at a time. I completely doubt that Arrow will show any of these related issues.  Likely, the focus will be on what has the most visual impact and her frustration/anger/insecurity at losing mobility.

 

However, in Felicity's case, the show made it clear through Donna that current technologies/therapies are not going to help Felicity.  So, I don't think the degree of her injury is in question because the Wow! factor of the miracle tech/cure depends on us having no hope.

[Guest]

I'm so worried it's Diggle. Seriously. DON'T KILL MY DIGGLE. I'll be devastated if they do this. 

[SleepDeprived]

I guess SA was wrong about DC barring the use of the DCCU characters on the show. Amanda Waller is in next week's episode. She was with Lyla in the promo for A.W.O.L.

 

Also, I'm betting that this scene with the camera zooming out from Oliver's so very sad/worried face in the midseason sizzle reel is the moment when he finds out that Darhk knows about his BM and kid.

 

I really hope it won't happen but it looks very likely that he's going to get publicly outed at the debate since that's the same suit and tie that Oliver was wearing when he wishes Ruve/Mrs. Darhk good luck before the debate. I'm guessing this is the episode that Guggie was talking about, where they'll "explore the virtues of truth" or whatever, when he was trying to do spin control and manage the backlash of 4x08. I honestly don't care about how Oliver will feel but more how Felicity (and Thea) will react to this. Ugh.

 

Either Oliver finds out about Mr. and Mrs. Darhk knowing about his souper sekrit love child in this scene OR the dramatic camera zoom out is because he finds out he's standing on a pressure plate connected to a bomb (which is why the theater gets evacuated and the Lances are dodging explosions in a basement) and the trigger is being controlled by someone threatening to detonate said bomb unless he tells the truth about all his "sins." Oh, wait. That was a Smallville episode. Heh. ... If this pressure plate bomb and truth-telling rip-off that happened to Ollie in that Smallville episode is actually what happens to Oliver in the debate in 4x14, Imma laugh my head off.

[bijoux]

Oh boo, Oliver knows who DD's wife is. I would've liked him not knowing during the mayoral run. Guess it could be fun this way.

 

It's certainly going to be fun once again pretending he doesn't know who a Dhark is.

 

Not for nothing but i think people are spending way to much time analyzing stuff to try and figure it out when they're just going to pull it out of their ass like usual.

The flowers, the limo, the grave stone, Barry's, Oliver's, Felicity's reactions etc. They're designed to keep people guessing but reveal nothing. It's all generic.

And this is what's so lame about this whole thing. It's lazy. They threw it out there at the beginning of the season to cause an uproar but they're not working towards it.

 

Can't wait to see how that turns out. If she doesn't take the kid and leave forever after that, then...what a moron.

After seeing Oliver and Felicity get shot up on the news and her with critical injuries, she should be relocating the kid as we speak. 

 

Is it DD or Anarky who takes the kid?  DD just gave Oliver a month off to spend with his family.

I got the impression that was just the planned timeline for Genesis.

[looptab]

While  I'm intrigued by Oliver being the optimist one, and I truly wish he will be there for Felicity, I'm also kinda expecting him to be his usual idiot self and tell her something like, "So, you can't walk. No big deal, you do most of your work sitting anyway". Then watch Felicity claw at his eyes.

[thegirlsleuth]

I was thinking about Felicity's murderous fury in the limo and what could prompt it, and was wondering whether the reason she is so violently angry is because her father committed the murder and she is giving permission/approval for killing him. I do wonder whether they are setting Felicity's father up as a big bad that trumps Damien Dahrk, and the rage might be driven by who committed the murder as who was murdered.

[BkWurm1]

I kinda want Felicity and Oliver to tag team destroy the "He" together after the way Felicity said " I want you to kill that son of a Bitch" I'm talking Felicity gets a couple of hits in there lol espically if it's Dig or her mom in the grave. Then afterward they can make up have hot reunion sex lol

The level of Felicity's anger really made me wonder if it's Malcolm she's talking about.  She REALLY hates Malcolm.  It wouldn't matter who the person in the grave is to her if the one responsible for putting them there was Malcolm. 

 

I trust Wendy more when she says game-changer. 

 

Game-changer to me doesn't mean anyone outside of Team Arrow. 

 

So I think it's going to be either Thea, Diggle, or Laurel. 

 

Thea is out because she's most likely going to be in a coma during that time, so we're left with the token PoC who serves an important role in Oliver's life and development and the most useless character on the show but hey she's in the comics!

After reading what WM said I had a moment of Diggle dread and it was strong.  Losing Diggle would rock the show - in a pretty horrible way IMO but after all our complaints about Laurel not being logical when Oliver had Diggle, could they have decided to get rid of Diggle?  I mean, the body count to the altar of because the comics say so is already pretty steep.  Would they consider dealing with Andy, wrapping up Diggle's storyline? 

 

Honestly if they got rid of Diggle, I'd stop holding my breath for Oliver and Felicity to get back together.  It would send me into a deep hopeless spiral unless they gave clear signs that they weren't reverting to comic destiny as their main guide. 

 

I think I need to remind myself that it's just another mind game.  I should know better than to get sucked into it.  It is always the most obvious choice which means it is most likely still Quentin.  But curse them for making me truly afraid for a moment. 

Is it DD or Anarky who takes the kid?  DD just gave Oliver a month off to spend with his family

 

.I think the month timeline is just the way the show explains why DD was so conveniently quiet during the weeks the show needed to make a time jump to line up to real time.  I think the break will be coming to an end by the time the show returns next week.

 

Though now that maybe the time jump won't be as big as I expect.  I strongly felt like there'd already been at least a week maybe two since the shooting.  It feels like that was confirmed given that DD's house no longer had ANY of his x-mas decorations hanging around anymore. 

[BkWurm1]

From WM EW interview

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/01/20/arrow-felicity-paralyzed-wheelchair-oracle-spoilers

 

Is this [paralysis] permanent?
You’ll have to watch to find out.

 

My first thought was this answer was as good as saying, nope, it's not permanent, but of course I can't help but second guess everything and then I wondered why we weren't getting the doublespeak that said things like "There is nothing the doctor's can do" or other seeming answers that allow for other options while it seems they are doubling down on the paralysis.  I hate not knowing for sure.  I mean, I'm 80% certain this is temporary as is the impending break up (actually, that number is closer to 90%) but these worries haunt me since I've let worries about Diggle creep in.  He had been the one that I'd had least worries about before.

[lemotomato]

I was reading the comments (I know, I know) in the post-episode breakdown with WM at TVline and someone pointed out something really obvious-- that it can't be Diggle in the grave because it's a civilian cemetery (all the gravestones look different). As a veteran, he'd be entitled to a plot in a military cemetery, right?

Edited January 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[Velocity23]

Australian promo

https://twitter.com/DamnTurtle1/status/690104754593226753

[apinknightmare]

I was reading the comments (I know, I know) in the post-episode breakdown with WM at TVline and someone pointed out something really obvious-- that it can't be Diggle in the grave because it's a civilian cemetery (all the gravestones look different). As a veteran, he'd be entitled to a plot in a military cemetery, right?

He would, but I don't think there's any point to trying to deduce anything by the grave. I don't think anyone on this show gave much thought to the details, they just wanted to make us panic over who was in it.

[looptab]

Apparently, the "Felicity is the one in the grave" spec isn't dead even after the last episode. I've seen speculations that it's her in the grave, and Oliver is hallucinating her - like Slade did Shado. Sure I'd hate every second of it if that's the case, but it surely would be surprising.

[bijoux]

I neither want nor think it's true, but it's one of the more interesting specs about her being in the grave.

[looptab]

It is. And I hate that I find it reasonable, haha.

[apinknightmare]

After reading Wendy Mericle's interviews last night, I think that limo Felicity being a hallucination is incredibly unlikely. Not surprised that some people would cling to that though, haha.

[bijoux]

To play devil's advocate, it could be played as, "Yes, we said we wanted to take it off the table. And we wanted to take it off the table for the shock value. Mwahahah." It won't be that, but it's not impossible to spin.

I did really like what she had to say about Oliver and Felicity dealing with the aftermath. Him seeing the positive in it and her being weighed down with first hand experience. That could be a good storyline.

Can anyone remind me, from which episode is the shot of Felicity and Laurel on the PT set?

[apinknightmare]

Can anyone remind me, from which episode is the shot of Felicity and Laurel on the PT set?

It's from the next ep.- 4x11

[bijoux]

Thanks. I wonder if she goes back to PT before she does to the lair or if it comes after her realization that the team really needs her. Because if she's already at work, I feel like they're asking a ton by wanting her to come back and help out. Even if I completely understand that they need her, seeing as shit got done in this episode without her. I

[looptab]

To play devil's advocate, it could be played as, "Yes, we said we wanted to take it off the table. And we wanted to take it off the table for the shock value. Mwahahah." It won't be that, but it's not impossible to spin.

Can anyone remind me, from which episode is the shot of Felicity and Laurel on the PT set?

Yeah, her words weren't absolute. I don't give credence to this theory, to be clear, but it wouldn't be impossible.

Which shot? The BTS pic that IGN guy took, or some other?

[bijoux]

I think that's the one. Felicity has a grey top and Laurel is in her bondage outfit. Thank you, Malcolm.

[Chaser]

Is it Felicity and Laurel at PT or is it EBR and KC uses the set for an interview?

[apinknightmare]

Is it Felicity and Laurel at PT or is it EBR and KC uses the set for an interview?

I think the PT set was used for the interview, but I'm guessing one of them was filming there if that's where the interview took place.

[bijoux]

I honestly don't know, but if they're there, I presume we'll see at least Felicity on that set.

[Chaser]

If the death is now four months from now, that would put it the last few episodes of the season, maybe 21? That's disappointing. I did not want this dragged out any further.

I wonder what the reason for the change was. I don't think I've seen the question brought up.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Chaser

[apinknightmare]

To play devil's advocate, it could be played as, "Yes, we said we wanted to take it off the table. And we wanted to take it off the table for the shock value. Mwahahah." It won't be that, but it's not impossible to spin.

I don't think it's impossible, I just think it's highly, highly unlikely.