Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

Barry might be the one asking Oliver to keep the kid a secret. He seems pretty hesitant to tell even Oliver about it. And he says, "I think you might be someone's father" makes me think maybe Barry asks him to hold off on telling anyone for whatever reason? Like until they know more or some other situation passes?

[AyChihuahua]

My big question is, who is asking him to keep the secret? 

Baby Mama?

[Guest]

No secret keeping please! Although it does sound like he tells them anyway.

[apinknightmare]

Baby Mama?

Could be!

[wonderwall]

I think this secret keeping situation will be like what Felicity went through in 213. Oliver wants and needs to tell her, but he has to respect baby mama too right?

[apinknightmare]

I think this secret keeping situation will be like what Felicity went through in 213. Oliver wants and needs to tell her, but he has to respect baby mama too right?

Depends on why she's asking. Is it a just for now thing, or a forever thing?

The way it was phrased makes me think it could be a team member, since the writer said he was asked to keep it from everybody. Unless it is the mom and the everyone she's referring to is anyone Oliver knows.

[kismet]

I do see it being very similar to the secret keeping dilemma that FS went through in s2. I think OQ will tell FS during the xover event, I betcha it will be one of the cliffhangers. I'm not worried that this secret keeping will continue beyond the end of the xover.

[looptab]

But why would Baby Mama care if Oliver tells someone or not?

[apinknightmare]

But why would Baby Mama care if Oliver tells someone or not?

I think it would make most sense for her to ask him not to tell anyone if she didn't want him involved. Either way, he's a public persona, and it seems like something she might not want getting out at this point, especially since it seems like she doesn't have a clue Oliver knows before he comes to her house.

[tv echo]

Maybe Moira had her sign a contract that she has to keep the child's paternity a secret or otherwise have to return the money.

[tarotx]

I get why Baby mama might want it secret but I can't see a real dilemma for Oliver with just her wish. Oliver can just ask Felicity not to tell anyone else. I think for Oliver reminding Felicity about his ick past wouldn't be an easy thing to get into. Plus with Felicity having father issues and Oliver thinking about granting the Baby mama her wish of being left alone could be something making him troubled in bringing it up?

But why would Baby Mama care if Oliver tells someone or not?

[apinknightmare]

I just had a thought: maybe the heartbreaking part is Oliver learning about what Moira did. Especially if the mom winds up not wanting him involved...that would probably kill him.

Edited December 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[catrox14]

Oh gods, I didn't even think of that. NOOO I don't want Oliver hating Moira :( That would just ....ugh NOOOOO:(

[AyChihuahua]

Maybe Moira had her sign a contract that she has to keep the child's paternity a secret or otherwise have to return the money.

That'd be unenforceable and likely illegal, plus no one would be around even to try to enforce it.

 

I like the idea that Baby Mama doesn't want her kid's paternity known, if she's happily married to a nice man.  Oliver's a known danger magnet plus yeah, still a pretty public figure.  I can also see Oliver being pretty sad about what Moira did.

 

Honestly, as long as it's not Felicity pregnancy with inevitable 4.09 miscarriage, I will put up with a lot at this point.

[apinknightmare]

Oh gods, I didn't even think of that. NOOO I don't want Oliver hating Moira :( That would just ....ugh NOOOOO:(

Can you imagine how terrible it would be? Ugh. And he'd probably also grapple with the fact that he might not have gotten on The Gambit if he'd known.

[calliope1975]

I'm down with Baby Mama wanting to keep the kid out of Oliver's life. I can see that causing heartbreak or whatever other descriptive terms that were used. Felicity would also have emotions surrounding a dad not being able to see his kid. 

 

Mostly though, all this speculation is KILLING me. I need factual spoilers. Tell me now!

[catrox14]

Can you imagine how terrible it would be? Ugh. And he'd probably also grapple with the fact that he might not have gotten on The Gambit if he'd known.

 

NOOO. You just made it WORSE!!! :(:(:(

[AyChihuahua]

Oh gods, I didn't even think of that. NOOO I don't want Oliver hating Moira :( That would just ....ugh NOOOOO:(

IMO he has absolutely every right and reason to be absolutely furious with Moira.  I mean he was pretty nice about her involvement with The Undertaking, but she did kind of help kill people.  (I get that MM was threatening her/her family, but there's a reason that duress is not a viable defense to murder.)  22-year-old Oliver was a dumb selfish douchebag, but he wouldn't have hurt the kid or Baby Mama, and plenty of dumb selfish douchey young people raise kids every day, often growing up a lot in the process.  What they did to him and to the kid is pretty unforgivable.

[looptab]

I think it would make most sense for her to ask him not to tell anyone if she didn't want him involved. Either way, he's a public persona, and it seems like something she might not want getting out at this point, especially since it seems like she doesn't have a clue Oliver knows before he comes to her house.

Yeah, I get not wanting it made public knowledge but, I mean, that still doesn't seem a good enough motivation to keep it a secret from those closest to Oliver. He'd know they wouldn't tell, so why being conflicted? IDK, I think it's about something else.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I get not wanting it made public knowledge but, I mean, that still doesn't seem a good enough motivation to keep it a secret from those closest to Oliver. He'd know they wouldn't tell, so why being conflicted? IDK, I think it's about something else.

She doesn't know Oliver's friends though. And her one run in with his family wasn't a good one. It definitely could be something else, though. Personally, I think Barry asks him to keep quiet about it.

Edited December 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

Question: where do we talk about tonight's episode? Do we have to go to The Flash board or can we discuss it in the Mind Your Surroundings thread?

 

8. Oliver will be asked to keep a secret from Felicity, and will eventually find comfort in the arms of another.

 

 

I want to know why it's a secret he has to keep from Felicity specifically. If it is to do with the baby mama, I can't imagine her telling him he can't tell his girlfriend specifically. That's kind of random to me. I feel like this is about something else we haven't even considered. 

 

As for the hug I think that's just Barry. Pretty sure they spoon at some point. I can see Barry hugging him for behind in an awkward way of trying to comfort him. Haha.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

I want to know why it's a secret he has to keep from Felicity specifically. If it is to do with the baby mama, I can't imagine her telling him he he can't tell his girlfriend specifically. That's kind of random to me. I feel like this is about something else we haven't even considered.

As for the hug I think that's just Barry. Pretty sure they spoon at some point. I can see Barry hugging him for behind in an awkward way of trying to comfort him. Haha.

I don't think it's a secret he has to keep specifically from Felicity. The write up under that headline indicates that the person asks Oliver to keep it a secret from everyone.

[kismet]

Question: where do we talk about tonight's episode? Do we have to go to The Flash board or can we discuss it in the Mind Your Surroundings thread?

Good question.... I'm guessing Mind your surroundings or the character pages (if its a character thing).

 

I suppose I could venture to the FLASH board, but I'm probably more likely to just not comment then venture there for one episode of discussion.

[Guest]

I don't think it's a secret he has to keep specifically from Felicity. The write up under that headline indicates that the person asks Oliver to keep it a secret from everyone.

 

Ah. Haha, I should probably read the whole thing but I always skim when I'm limited for time! The headline is misleading though. 

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

Is Lance or Donna in the episode? Maybe he finds out about them and has to keep it a secret.

[catrox14]

 

IMO he has absolutely every right and reason to be absolutely furious with Moira.  I mean he was pretty nice about her involvement with The Undertaking, but she did kind of help kill people.  (I get that MM was threatening her/her family, but there's a reason that duress is not a viable defense to murder.)  22-year-old Oliver was a dumb selfish douchebag, but he wouldn't have hurt the kid or Baby Mama, and plenty of dumb selfish douchey young people raise kids every day, often growing up a lot in the process.  What they did to him and to the kid is pretty unforgivable.

 

I'm not going to conflate Moira paying off Baby Mama with with her role in the Undertaking. Those are totally separate things that were not even happening at the same time.  Moira should have come forward before she did, but  in the end she admitted her wrongdoing and faced the consequences for her role in MERLYN's scheme. Moira would have been executed or in prison for life, if Malcolm hadn't monkeyed with the jury. And she was murdered anyway by Slade in front of Oliver.

 

Moira made a bad decision in what she thought was Oliver's best interest at the time and she also made sure the child had money for life essentially. It's not like Moira was compelling Baby Mama to terminate the pregnancy. Baby Mama didn't hesitate to take the money and run.

 

He had finally came to a point of a repaired relationship with Moira and she was the only person not part of TA and not a villain that knew he was the Arrow.  They had a strained relationship but he did love her and she love him. Sorry but to me, Oliver hating Moira posthumously...would hurt Oliver more than anything aside from Felicity, Thea or Diggle dying. YMMV

Edited December 1, 2015 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

My feeling is that if we're going to discuss the episode in depth, we should do it on the Flash board.  If it's just a quick observation, then the Mind Your Surroundings thread.

Maybe Moira had her sign a contract that she has to keep the child's paternity a secret or otherwise have to return the money.

I don't think Oliver would let her give back the money now.  But if all she knows is douche frat boy Oliver who lost his family's company, I can see why she wouldn't want him around her son.  Even for parents the child grew up with, after a divorce the custodial parent is often "I don't want him/her anywhere around my child; I just want to forget he/she ever existed."

 

I hope Moira not only researched Baby Mama but kept a watching brief to know that her grandchild was all right. Maybe that's what Baby Mama was referring to when she told Oliver that his mother loved him very much.

 

What Moira did was nasty but I think she was right in that having the child would hurt Oliver.  Me, I would have done it for the child's sake. Oliver was Robert only 100 x worse.  The idea that having to take care of a child will make you grow up works better in fiction than in real life.

 

I hope the hug is from Cisco. I can just see SA's expression from that.

Edited December 1, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

I'm not going to conflate Moira paying off Baby Mama with with her role in the Undertaking. Those are totally separate things that were not even happening at the same time.

I didn't conflate them at all.  They, along with several other things, are individual absolutely horrible things she's done.  He was generally pretty forgiving with her, so he is likely to be forgiving towards her memory eventually as well, but I'd be perfectly fine with him being absolutely furious with her.

 

And yeah, my mileage definitely varies.  ST is a fantastic actress and Moira was a very interesting character, but she did a lot of unforgivable things.  Her family's choice (minus Walter, seemingly) was to forgive her, and that's fine.  But it's also fine not to forgive.  Bad acts don't require the injured parties to forgive the injuring parties.

What Moira did was nasty but I think she was right in that having the child would hurt Oliver.

How would knowing he had a baby hurt Oliver?  He'd either not care and keep partying, or he'd care and want to be in the kid's life, and maybe grow up a little.  And people are forced to grow up because of kids every single day in real life.  Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't, but it's not as if Oliver would have physically harmed the kid, and he deserved the chance.  

 

I feel like people would not be so okay with Oliver being forced out of his kid's life if he was the mother.  If Moira had stolen the baby at birth and made everyone believe he'd died, or some such.  Fathers have just as much right to know their children as mothers do.  They're not lesser parents just because they're the male parent.

Edited December 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[bijoux]

Yeah but ex-girlfriend sounds better than "one night stand he cheated on Laurel with".  They have to play nice.

At least Oliver knew what her name was -- I hope.

 

 

Ex-girlfriend. Funny. Best case scenario, they hooked up while he and Laurel were on a break. I've always imagined them breaking up and getting back together. I think I got it from Tommy commenting that she and Oliver always came back to each other or some such.

I think he'd have to have known the name. He called her when she told him about misscarrying, right? And Moira had to have a starting point for her investigation. If she had to sort all the possible mothers at the time, the baby might have been born before anything had been uncovered.

 

Also from that Moviefone article:

My guess is Diggle.

My bet is Thea.

[way2interested]

So, what are the overall cliffhangers for each episode going to be? I'm guessing Flash's is finding about the kid, but what would Arrow's be?

[statsgirl]

I'm sure that Oliver knew her name after she told him she was pregnant.  I just hope he knew it before he had sex with her.

 

I hadn't thought that their encounter might have been when he was on a break with Laurel. From Laurel's behaviour in the flashback and Oliver lying to her about why he was mopey and Sara's comments about the ten women they knew Oliver had cheated on Laurel with, I had always assumed that he was still with Laurel when it happened.

 

I think Flash's cliffhanger is going to be about hiding Kendra and Carter and Crump coming upon them.  Arrow's cliffhanger may be about the kid.

Edited December 1, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

So, what are the overall cliffhangers for each episode going to be? I'm guessing Flash's is finding about the kid, but what would Arrow's be?

 

Yeah, I think The Flash's is going to be about the kid, since it seems like that's Oliver's arc over on Arrow. I think Arrow's is going to be something to do with DD and/or the attack on the city that he's got planned for next ep.

[kismet]

I just find it ironic, that it took less episodes to find out BabyMama's name than it took to find out Poppy's real name. And Poppy is supposed to be some big important arc parallel character.
 

Personally, I always saw OQ as having a black book of women. I don't think BabyMama was an actual relationship, but I don't think their hook-up was a one-time thing. He probably slept with a lot of girls on the regular when LL & him were having rough times. So perhaps ex-gf is a stretch of the word. IMO, she could be considered his ex-mistress at best. I never doubted that he knew her name, especially after she "lost" the baby. That's not something you forget.

 

As for OQ being kept out of the child's life both then and now, I think that is really a hard thing to forgive. I get that OQ was not in the place to be a father. But he had every right to know that he had a child and make his own decision about how he wanted to be involved in the child's life. Now it becomes more complicated, because years have past and who knows what that child will think of his biological father? As well as what is best for the child now that the truth has been revealed? What is in the best interest of the child just became harder to determine. I get why BabyMama took the money and ran, but still what she & MQ did was pretty cruel and extremely hard to forgive.

Edited December 1, 2015 by kismet

[bijoux]

I'm sure that Oliver knew her name after she told him she was pregnant.  I just hope he knew it before he had sex with her.

 

I hadn't thought that their encounter might have been when he was on a break with Laurel. From Laurel's behaviour in the flashback and Oliver lying to her about why he was mopey and Sara's comments about the ten women they knew Oliver had cheated on Laurel with, I had always assumed that he was still with Laurel when it happened.

Oh, I think the odds of it happening while he and Laurel were broken up are about 1%. I'm just saying this is literally the best case scenario. They were neither in a relationship nor torn apart.

Does Oliver saying dude seem somehow wrong to you all as well? It just sounds off to me. Guy, I can see Oliver saying guy. Dude sounds like Thea to me. Much like Laurel's "sick" a few episodes back.

[apinknightmare]

Does Oliver saying dude seem somehow wrong to you all as well? It just sounds off to me. Guy, I can see Oliver saying guy. Dude sounds like Thea to me. Much like Laurel's "sick" a few episodes back.

 

I thought it was weird, but I also enjoyed it. Maybe because he seemed so angry when he was doing it? That made it doubly funny to me.

[calliope1975]

Does Oliver saying dude seem somehow wrong to you all as well? It just sounds off to me. Guy, I can see Oliver saying guy. Dude sounds like Thea to me. Much like Laurel's "sick" a few episodes back.

 

I noticed that, too. That seems like SA to me, not Oliver.

[way2interested]

Does Oliver saying dude seem somehow wrong to you all as well? It just sounds off to me. Guy, I can see Oliver saying guy. Dude sounds like Thea to me. Much like Laurel's "sick" a few episodes back.

 

I think that it's some form of reference for Savage. I remember one article commented about how Savage is still up with the times on everything and even calls Cisco "Dude." So it's more of a short-term referential joke, or at least I hope it is because yes indeed it did feel off. 

[Chaser]

IIRC, when Oliver told Moira about the baby she assumed it was Laurel's. Oliver went to Laurel after he was told by the mother she lost the baby. I thought they were together at the time.

[catrox14]

 

I feel like people would not be so okay with Oliver being forced out of his kid's life if he was the mother.  If Moira had stolen the baby at birth and made everyone believe he'd died, or some such.  Fathers have just as much right to know their children as mothers do.  They're not lesser parents just because they're the male parent.

 

Which people would that be? I don't think that's a really fair argument. Oliver was a mess and even if he felt in a kind of romantic way about being a father( not sexual but a romantic musing about being a father) the reality is that he was not really good father material then. This isn't about MEN in general as parents, this is about Oliver Queen being a huge fuck up and it's unlikely fatherhood at that time of his life was going to change him.

[AyChihuahua]

Which people would that be? I don't think that's a really fair argument. Oliver was a mess and even if he felt in a kind of romantic way about being a father( not sexual but a romantic musing about being a father) the reality is that he was not really good father material then. This isn't about MEN in general as parents, this is about Oliver Queen being a huge fuck up and it's unlikely fatherhood at that time of his life was going to change him.

He wasn't going to INJURE the kid.  At worst he would have continued being a dumb douchebag and popped in and out of the kid's life.  At best he would have been an involved parent.  It was up to him to decide, and to have the chance.  He'll never know what kind of parent he would have been, because the choice was taken away from him.  Tons of people are not great parental material, but you don't have to be perfect to be a parent.  

 

I mean Baby Mama was a mess, too.  She was hooking up with a dumb douchebag, so she wasn't exactly smart and mature.  But SHE got the opportunity to raise her child.  It's not fair that she got that chance and he didn't, and he has every right to be upset about that.

[tarotx]

He does have the right to be upset.  I think he might be more sad that he was the type of person that made this decision seem like the best idea. 

[apinknightmare]

Oliver was an idiotic douchebag, but he seemed like he had kind of warmed up to the idea of fatherhood before nameless ONS told him that she lost their baby. He could've been an awful dad, but I don't think he was one of those morons who would've driven away with a carseat on top of his car, or like...criminally negligent. If he did wind up being terrible at it, he had the safety net of rich, affluent parents. There's only so far he could've fallen. 

 

It's sad that he never got the chance to make the choice on his own. He should be upset about that. I'm hoping that if the mother does ask him to stay away that Oliver decides to do it on his own because the kid seems happy and well-adjusted and safe the way things are (and maybe has a father figure in his life), and not because he feels pressured/threatened into it. 

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I agree it's a lot more complicated now.  They should never have lied in the first place, but now it's a lot tougher to say the kid is better off knowing Oliver's his father, especially if he has grown up thinking someone else is his father.  

[apinknightmare]

He does have the right to be upset.  I think he might be more sad that he was the type of person that made this decision seem like the best idea. 

 

Well, to be fair (and I do think that Moira was awful for doing what she did), she didn't just do it because she thought Oliver wasn't capable. She did it because he flat-out told her he thought his life was over, and that it was unfair that his life should be ruined because of one mistake. He made it pretty clear he didn't want it. So if he has any regrets, it's probably about that. 

[wonderwall]

Is Lance or Donna in the episode? Maybe he finds out about them and has to keep it a secret.

 

No they aren't, IIRC. Donna will be there in ep9 but not the Xover. I'm not even sure Lance is going to be in the episode. 

[AyChihuahua]

Well, to be fair (and I do think that Moira was awful for doing what she did), she didn't just do it because she thought Oliver wasn't capable. She did it because he flat-out told her he thought his life was over, and that it was unfair that his life should be ruined because of one mistake. He made it pretty clear he didn't want it. So if he has any regrets, it's probably about that. 

That was such a childish response on his part, and she should have known better.  His life is over, what a melodramatic baby, which she just helped right along.

 

(Sarcasm aimed at Ollie and Moira, not at you.)

 

I often think that pre-island Ollie effectively doesn't exist anymore, so I give Oliver basically a 100% pass on anything Ollie did back then.  I condemn Oliver for stuff he's done since he became this new person, but it has to be pretty rough to be constantly punished for actions that have to feel like they were the actions of a completely different person.

[catrox14]

 

He wasn't going to INJURE the kid.  At worst he would have continued being a dumb douchebag and popped in and out of the kid's life.  At best he would have been an involved parent.  It was up to him to decide, and to have the chance.  He'll never know what kind of parent he would have been, because the choice was taken away from him.  Tons of people are not great parental material, but you don't have to be perfect to be a parent.

 

No one said he had to be perfect, but as was pointed out, he said it was the worst thing that had ever happened to him. And as much as it would be nice to think Oliver would have turned something around, that might not have been the case at all. He wasn't mature enough to not cheat on Laurel and not get another girl pregnant whilst he was with Laurel..so I'm sorry but I don't necessarily believe he would have become much more than an absentee father.  JMHO of Oliver at that time.

 

Would Baby Mama have forced him to marry her? If not, she might have just said, nope, I don't want you in my child's life because despite your millions, you're a fuck up

 

But who knows, but now I do think Oliver will find out what Moira did and that makes me incredibly sad :(.

[kismet]

The most annoying thing about what MQ did was only done to protect her family's image. We will never know what type of father OQ would have been. Or what demands BabyMama would have made on the Queen Family. But buying her out for her secrecy was the simplest decision. It really had nothing to do with what was in the best interest of the Baby, BabyMama or OQ. It was done to keep the Queen family from having a illegitimate heir. And that is disgraceful. There would have been so many other ways they could have handled the situation. But MQ chose to pay money to keep the baby a secret and on top of that lie to her son about it.

 

None of us no what the current situation is of BabyMama & child, so its hard to say what is currently in the best interest of the child. Personally, I feel like telling him he has another biological father may be in his best interest, even if there is currently a father figure in the picture. Uprooting the child to move to SC or to make him part of OQ's day to day, I think is ill-advised if the child is in a happy & healthy situation in CC. OQ can be an important part of his son's life and not uproot the child. Which is why I think the child will stay with BabyMama in CC and not be a major factor in OQ's day to day life.

 

Honestly, I hope that they find a way to make whatever choice they make be in the best interest of the child. Unlike the initial decision, which was not made in the best interest of the child. Or at least that was not the priority when it was discussed on the show.

[apinknightmare]

But who knows, but now I do think Oliver will find out what Moira did and that makes me incredibly sad :(.

 

Oh, he's definitely going to find out. It will be very sad, but the upside is (and this is also sad) that Oliver knows what Moira is capable of, so...even though I think he'll be upset and saddened, I don't think he'll really be all that surprised. 

[AyChihuahua]

No one said he had to be perfect, but as was pointed out, he said it was the worst thing that had ever happened to him. And as much as it would be nice to think Oliver would have turned something around, that might not have been the case at all. He wasn't mature enough to not cheat on Laurel and not get another girl pregnant whilst he was with Laurel..so I'm sorry but I don't necessarily believe he would have become much more than an absentee father.  JMHO of Oliver at that time.

 

Would Baby Mama have forced him to marry her? If not, she might have just said, nope, I don't want you in my child's life because despite your millions, you're a fuck up

 

But who knows, but now I do think Oliver will find out what Moira did and that makes me incredibly sad :(.

You can't, outside of Nanda Parbat, force anyone to marry anyone.  No court in the United States would allow her to exclude Oliver from the kid's life because he was an idiotic douchebag, or because he refused to marry her.

 

He was 22-years-old, and an idiot, and he'd just found out he'd knocked up some random woman.  His initial reaction isn't an indication of what his eventual reaction would have been.  Probably a couple million 22-year-olds find out they're going to be parents every year, and most of them get to make the choice whether to be parents, even the douchebags.  

.  

Edited December 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua