Spoiler Discussion Thread

[catahoulamama]

Ever since the sunset and porsche spoilery stuff came out, I've wondered if it's even legit. Marc is such a huge troll about things, would they go to the extreme of planting fake spoilers on social media to throw everyone off the real finale? They do love to screw with the audience, and they took the time to shoot the useless LP scenes with Yao Fern...LOL.  I honestly wouldn't put it past them to mess with the audience to that extent. 

[Jessie2009]

 

 

Thinking a little more about this. Yeah, I think when Diggle finds out that Oliver's been faking the whole thing (which is my current belief even though not everything makes sense) he's going to be seriously angry, and that's going to be what he has a hard time forgiving going into season four, not any kind of physical injury. I think Felicity will probably forgive Oliver pretty quickly, if the sunset highway thing is any indication, but Diggle is going to see what happened as a serious betrayal of their friendship/brotherhood.

I don't know how they will have Laurel react - whether this will driver her even further away from Oliver, or whether they'll have her be understanding. I'm leaning toward the former, but I could see them doing the latter.

I think Thea will forgive him too. So maybe he ends the season reconciled with Felicity and Thea, but not so much with Diggle and Laurel?

Yeah, I'm thinking he's been faking too. Just given the way Diggle acted last episode, even after the kidnapping, if Oliver really was brainwashed, I can't see him holding that against him. If he's been faking it fits with him not making Maseo check Felicity. I mean I guess it's possible that Al Sah him just underestimated Felicity and didn't think she would bring weapons, but it seems like even if he's brainwashed, he's still got Oliver's memories, so you would think even if he was, he would remember all the times they've used Felicity as bait, or when they tricked Slade.

 

I'm also thinking that Felicity and Thea will end up forgiving him, while Diggle is gonna be mad. I'm not really sure about Laurel. I'm not sure that she'll be as mad as Diggle, but she might not forgive him as quickly as Felicity and Thea will.

[Chaser]

Based off of her reactions in this last episode, Laurel would be furious at Oliver for putting Nyssa in danger ('cause Nyssa can't make her own choices you know).

 

I think Diggle may understand what Oliver was going, but that isn't going to make it any easier for him. He took Lyla and brought the LOA into his home with his baby girl there. There is a line Oliver, look behind you.

 

I don't know about Felicity. It depends on how its played. I would be mad. Really mad.

[apinknightmare]

Ever since the sunset and porsche spoilery stuff came out, I've wondered if it's even legit. Marc is such a huge troll about things, would they go to the extreme of planting fake spoilers on social media to throw everyone off the real finale? They do love to screw with the audience, and they took the time to shoot the useless LP scenes with Yao Fern...LOL.  I honestly wouldn't put it past them to mess with the audience to that extent. 

 

I think it's probably real in that there is a scene with Oliver and Felicity in a Porsche - SA tweeted about four people asking him if he could drive a stick shift, so...seems legit on that front. I'm not so sure that the scene is romantic or even real though, so I'm not putting any stock in it until I see it on my screen. 

[Chaser]

Ever since the sunset and porsche spoilery stuff came out, I've wondered if it's even legit. Marc is such a huge troll about things, would they go to the extreme of planting fake spoilers on social media to throw everyone off the real finale? They do love to screw with the audience, and they took the time to shoot the useless LP scenes with Yao Fern...LOL.  I honestly wouldn't put it past them to mess with the audience to that extent. 

Apparently a fan talked to SA about Andy-the-Jogger and he said he heard about him. Didn't confirm or deny for what its worth.

[Carrie Ann]

This show doesn't have the money to throw away on a "tease" that they aren't even publicizing. SA tweeted the thing about driving stick, but otherwise, it was all this dude who saw them shooting on that street. Would they rent a Porsche, pay for insurance, get permits and pay to have that road closed, get that crane camera rig out there, and all the cast/crew they needed to shoot something that they weren't going to use on the show? No, they talk about how they use every single dollar efficiently, and I believe them.

 

Could it be a dream? Yes. But that shot will be on the show.

[apinknightmare]

Based off of her reactions in this last episode, Laurel would be furious at Oliver for putting Nyssa in danger ('cause Nyssa can't make her own choices you know).

 

I think Diggle may understand what Oliver was going, but that isn't going to make it any easier for him. He took Lyla and brought the LOA into his home with his baby girl there. There is a line Oliver, look behind you.

 

I don't know about Felicity. It depends on how its played. I would be mad. Really mad.

 

I'm just worried that he's going to be real with them to gain their trust, and then wind up playing them, because if that's the case I can't see any kind of happy ending this year. Can you imagine? Would you trust the guy at that point? Would you wonder if he was playing you? I guess that could be easily solved depending on how Ra's gets eliminated. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that, and if he does it for an effective, understandable reason, then okay. 

[catahoulamama]

I think it's probably real in that there is a scene with Oliver and Felicity in a Porsche - SA tweeted about four people asking him if he could drive a stick shift, so...seems legit on that front. I'm not so sure that the scene is romantic or even real though, so I'm not putting any stock in it until I see it on my screen. 

Glad I'm not the only one not taking it as irrefutable evidence of a HEA for olicity in the finale. I'm not sure HEA for anyone even exists in the Arrowverse...LOL.

[kismet]

I don't know. Oliver is gonna have to do something a little more evil/bad in the next episodes (which could totally happen) to make me think that Diggle will continue to hold grudge or be upset months later over kidnapping Lyla. Maybe I just don't see how kidnapping her was such a big deal (sorry)...  I totally expected him to at least torture or harm her a little (let me stress, I did not want it - but I thought the writers might do it). She is a trained Argus agent, being kidnapped & held against her will is something she has trained for & experienced. He held her captive in SC for a few hours, that does not seem that bad to me when you consider all the other things that we or others could speculate that he might do to Lyla. And yes he left Baby Sara alone, but Im torn whether that was better or worse from Diggle's perspective. Kidnapping her puts her in harm's way regardless of whether OQ is faking or not. Leaving her behind though also puts her at risk of injury.

 

On the scale of Bromance violations, it feels on par with faking Roy's death and not telling OQ for his own good. So maybe its just a symptom of a slow stress fracture of trust that is happening between them. Back in the day the faked kidnapped Moira together to get information, so its not like kidnapping is uncommon to either of them.

[catahoulamama]

I could see Diggle being pissed into S4 if it comes out that Oliver has been working with Merlyn on taking down Ra's since he returned from his cliff-dive in NP. If he's left TA out of the loop of something like that all season, Digg would be pretty ragey about that.

[apinknightmare]

Maybe I just don't see how kidnapping her was such a big deal (sorry)...  ]

 

Yeah, I don't think it was either. Apart from leaving Baby Sara alone, I don't think it was bad at all. It was the most bland kidnapping attempt ever. And, I mean, what was Oliver supposed to do? Not save Thea? Not do what Ra's told him to? As others have pointed out, he took the person who could most handle herself, and he didn't lay so much as a finger on her. I get Dig being upset for a little while, but...meh.

Edited May 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

The showrunners do not understand normal human reactions, though.  Based on what SA has said, I think that's pretty much what he did to Diggle.  I mean, he's going to lock them all up next episode, but that's not Diggle-specific. 

 

I am very sure he'll be un-brainwashed (if he ever was) by the end of the next episode.  The lyrics to the song title are quite clear.  He won't be out about it to Ra's, but I think TA will know by the end.  The pace this show goes at, the wedding is probably in the first five minutes. 

 

I can't imagine if he's not brainwashed he'd want them all to come to NP.  I still really don't think he has some big grand plan, bc really, if he did, TA+ showing up unexpectedly in NP, and then likely about to be executed, would almost certainly screw up that plan. 

 

It's funny, to me the reason all this stuff is so hard to figure out is not that it's so complex and twisty, but that the writing/logic is so totally, totally lacking.  For example, Merlyn should never have thought Oliver would have a chance in hell v. Ra's, so you'd think hey, he must have had some plan, since Merlyn has previously been portrayed as smart.  But then Guggie blows that off with "he's just a cockeyed optimist."  Because I don't understand why any of TA was left unprotected when everyone knew Ra's was after them...Merlyn left Thea alone in the loft?  WHY?  It's not like he has something better to do, geez.  So, was he in on it?  In a well-written show, you'd think yes, he left her unprotected on purpose. 

 

But this is the show that sincerely did not realize that they left Roy, a longtime cast member, electrocuted (by a supposed "hero") and unconscious in a ditch.  They genuinely didn't realize it.  (Also, what was up with Brick not being harmed by bullets, but yes being harmed by arrows?  What the hell was that?)  I really think Earth-logic simply does not apply to this show anymore, which means it's effectively impossible to speculate intelligently.

Edited May 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Chaser]

I think its a slow stress facture (Nice term Kismet). Diggle gave Oliver quite the look when he left Oliver and Felicity after saying good bye to Roy. I think Diggle has been really frustrated with Oliver this season and whatever Oliver does it really going to put pressure on that.

[catahoulamama]

I'm just worried that he's going to be real with them to gain their trust, and then wind up playing them, because if that's the case I can't see any kind of happy ending this year. Can you imagine? Would you trust the guy at that point? Would you wonder if he was playing you? I guess that could be easily solved depending on how Ra's gets eliminated. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that, and if he does it for an effective, understandable reason, then okay. 

Given all that we've seen that Oliver went through and was involved in while he was on the island and elsewhere, all of that would be right in his wheelhouse. Will they do it?  I don't know. Wouldn't that likely put him on an emotional island then for S4 if he burned everyone like that? I'm finding it difficult to see how they get to a happy ending this year anyway. Is it even possible to reach a resolution on all of this in two episodes? It doesn't feel like it is unless they handwave some stuff and/or just go at a breakneck speed for the next two.

[blixie]

 

I'd say that what's happened so far is enough for Dig to feel betrayed. No matter the motive,

 

 

For me it's not a question of motive, but of free will and how much of it Oliver was employing at the time he snatched Lyla. Laurel rightfully isn't out for Thea's blood, and that is arguably way worse of an outcome, but also far more clearly a question of total brainwashing/programming/amnesia. IF Oliver planned it all along, Diggle can/should be pissed and betrayed, but if not, he could still be pissed, but I would find it weird to feel any sense of true betrayal, and also something that wasn't even a damn hiccup compared to what Lyla goes through on her typical ARGUS mission.

 

The better reason to lose faith/trust in Oliver is because of an entire year of dumbass decisions that "lead him to that moment". Who knows maybe that will be Digg's exact point. I never did think it would be anything a very short amount of show time would heal or that it would do enough damage to have them not work together again in S4.

 

 

On the scale of Bromance violations, it feels on par with faking Roy's death and not telling OQ for his own good.

 

Right, that too, like Dig you just fucked with his emotions and left him out of big plan, though Roy/Felicity/Diggle's plan did not incorporate putting Thea at risk, so he can definitely still have ish Oliver about doing so to Lyla, and again the general frustration of why am I following YOUR lead again?

Edited May 1, 2015 by blixie

[Morena]

I don't know. Oliver is gonna have to do something a little more evil/bad in the next episodes (which could totally happen) to make me think that Diggle will continue to hold grudge or be upset months later over kidnapping Lyla. Maybe I just don't see how kidnapping her was such a big deal (sorry)...  I totally expected him to at least torture or harm her a little (let me stress, I did not want it - but I thought the writers might do it). She is a trained Argus agent, being kidnapped & held against her will is something she has trained for & experienced. He held her captive in SC for a few hours, that does not seem that bad to me when you consider all the other things that we or others could speculate that he might do to Lyla. And yes he left Baby Sara alone, but Im torn whether that was better or worse from Diggle's perspective. Kidnapping her puts her in harm's way regardless of whether OQ is faking or not. Leaving her behind though also puts her at risk of injury.

 

On the scale of Bromance violations, it feels on par with faking Roy's death and not telling OQ for his own good. So maybe its just a symptom of a slow stress fracture of trust that is happening between them. Back in the day the faked kidnapped Moira together to get information, so its not like kidnapping is uncommon to either of them.

I think the difference is that in the first, no one was hurt except Roy and he accepted. In the second case, Moira was the only fooled. I think after it's over, Lyla could understand if it was all faking (remember the conversation in 3x08)

Edited May 1, 2015 by Morena

[AyChihuahua]

If I were Digg, I would leave after this.  Oliver is effectively his commanding officer in Team Arrow, and Oliver is a moronic, incompetent CO.  It's different with the others, because Felicity's in love with Oliver and Roy/Thea don't know any better, but Digg has, presumably, been commanded by actual effective and intelligent leaders in the past.  If I were him I'd GTFO and never lay eyes on Oliver again. 

[kismet]

I think the difference is that in the first, no one was hurt except Roy and he accepted. In the second case, Moira was the only fooled. I think Lyla understand (remember the conversation in 3x08)

No one was hurt in this kidnapping either. Its par for the course in the line of work both Diggle & Lyla pursued. Live long enough in that lifestyle and its bound to happen. Its great for Diggle to say you can have it all, but having a family makes them targets. Everyone knows that you can use & target people's families to get what you want (its like Mob/Gang/Criminal 101). Loved ones are bargaining chips, its just a reality for both the good guys & the bad guys. There are lines and then there are lines. To me kidnapping did not cross the line. Now had he physically or emotionally harmed her that would have crossed the line. He didn't even try to engage Lyla in conversation.

[Morena]

No one was hurt in this kidnapping either. Its par for the course in the line of work both Diggle & Lyla pursued. Live long enough in that lifestyle and its bound to happen. Its great for Diggle to say you can have it all, but having a family makes them targets. Everyone knows that you can use & target people's families to get what you want (its like Mob/Gang/Criminal 101). Loved ones are bargaining chips, its just a reality for both the good guys & the bad guys. There are lines and then there are lines. To me kidnapping did not cross the line. Now had he physically or emotionally harmed her that would have crossed the line. He didn't even try to engage Lyla in conversation.

sorry, in fact, what I tried to say is: After it's over, Lyla could understand if it was all faking

[tarotx]

Oliver is a surrogate brother to Diggle. Than for Oliver not to trust him with something as big as taking Ra's offer to take him down from the inside? And a Right minded Oliver to kidnap Layla and leave baby Sara alone? I can see how trust can be affected. We don't really know how deep just that their relationship will change. Oliver doesn't share and that would cause conflict and doubt in your leader.

Oliver maybe knew he had to take Ra's offer but was holding out trying to train. But tan Ra's "killed" Thea and he had to go in now.

Maybe Maseo and Tatsu knew Ra's had the Alpha and Omega virus but no real way to get to it? When Oliver came they saved him because they knew about the prophecy?

I wonder if Felicity and Laurel could be finding out about the wedding in that little we trusted you denouncement?

[Password]

If anything I'd expect Lyla to talk Diggle off the ledge because she was there, was unharmed and even tried to talk Oliver out of his madness.

Oliver has made stupid, unilateral decisions all season but Diggle has stood by Oliver because he's a brother. I can certainly see Diggle questioning Oliver's friendship/leadership skills if he once again made a unilateral decision for their own good.

I really hope Oliver is fully Oliver but undercover if only for the fact that I'd like a smart, well thought out plan from him for a change. I'll deal with the consequences later, just stop the stupid.

[apinknightmare]

I really hope Oliver is fully Oliver but undercover if only for the fact that I'd like a smart, well thought out plan from him for a change. I'll deal with the consequences later, just stop the stupid.

 

I really hope he has a plan. I always thought that 'only the student can defeat the master' crap was terrible, especially when I thought he was going to learn from Malcolm, which doesn't make sense. It's marginally better if Oliver is actually Ra's student and defeats him by somehow using that against him.

Edited May 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

They so easily could've left that ridiculous Malcolm team up out of the show and went straight to Oliver being brainwashed by Ra's. 10 episodes of brainwash, TA dealing with loss and deciding to follow trhough their defense of Starling, Al Sahim returns, eventually claws his way back from the darkness...defeats Ra's by blowing him to pieces. (OK that's slightly dark). But nooooo. Drama demanded a stupid Oliver so that's what we got.

[statsgirl]

I know MG has a big spin up his sleeve otherwise he wouldn't be all gleeful about the wedding but I don't know if it's enough to save the season.  Actually, I highly doubt it, especially since he's been misjudging viewers reactions so much.

 

It's going to be "all hands on deck" because that's how the show ends every season.  In season 1 they recruited Quentin, in season 2 the LoA plus Sara plus Roy got his mask.  I'm hoping that Ray finally gets to show his hero stuff now that he's out from under the burden of Raylicity.

 

At this point, I wouldn't mind Felicity's "We trusted you" leading to several months of not trusting Oliver given how he's treated her and his other friends this season. I doubt it's going to happen though, MG will want the season to end on the happy, especially given how depressing it's been, so no consequences for Oliver's deception and overall idiocy from Felicity, sadly. .

Weren't we supposed to learn why Nyssa went back to Starling City? If it was just that she had stolen the virus, then *slow clap* You're so clever, writers! /sarcasm

Why would she take the virus with her in the very city Ra's was planning to have his Heir release it? Or was it so she could keep an eye on Oliver and if/when he accepted the offer?

I'm hoping she took it to Starling City because that's where she knows people. And she hid it there and got Felicity or Caitlyn to mix her up a fake one that she hid in her staff..

 

Why doesn't he just come out and say they'll be married? He makes it sound like the wedding ceremony and the marriage are two different things because a ceremony finishing and reaching a conclusion does not necessarily mean the couple is married and I JUST WANT THIS TO BE OVER ALREADY. 

Shout it. I hate this stupid wedding and I have the bad feeling that it's not going to be over by the end of the next episode.

 

Really, the only conclusion I really want is Ra's head on a pike, preferably at Nyssa's hand. Lazarus Pit your way out of that, you sick SOB.

I want Nyssa to kill her father and take over as Ra's, and remain a shadowy presence in the Arrow universe.  That, or move the the spin-off with Sara.  But mostly I want Ra's dead.

[Genki]

Was it just me or did they effectively make Damian Darhk, a bigger and more competent villain with a few lines of exposition?

 

He helped the Warlord form the 1st suicide squad episode, he was behind the attempt at accessing the prototype earthquake machine and he runs H.I.V.E. which killed Diggle's brother and he is a LOA trained assasin.

 

It makes me look forward to dropping all this Ra's LOA Drama and hope for a better S4 villian. From my googling he doesn't have a lot of comic background to weigh him down and the babyfaced aspect of his character is explained by his having access to the LP. Since on the fence about him being Felicity's Father however.

 

I've been trying to work out what MG meant when he said this season is a closure for the 1st 3 seasons of the series, I think it needs to end with Oliver coming home fully to be himself. When he came home the 1st time it was for a mission, not to get a life back for himself and he faked so much because he couldn't be Ollie or Oliver Queen anymore, so I hope that the season end with OQ coming home and deciding to be OQ. 

[AyChihuahua]

"so I hope that the season end with OQ coming home and deciding to be OQ."

 

That's been a theory for awhile, but I don't see how that would work with the comics.  In a way, the comics limit them, because they also can't really end with Felicity kidnapped by her father, because they did that last time in the comics, and they obviously can't have her kidnapped and then not address that in the comics.

 

Put me down for hoping Felicity's father is not the primary villain next season.  He can be a villainous assistant or whatever, but being the primary bad guy is too much of a coincidence for me.

[wonderwall]

I guess I'm in the minority when I say I want Felicity's father to be the main baddie. I think it would be good for her character because then we can see her growth through interactions with the villain. I don't think we'd get a long Felicity arc if her father isn't the primary/secondary villain. He doesn't have to be the head of HIVE or whatever, but he could be the one giving out all the commands... The Seneca Crane to the President Snow...? Maybe? IDK

Edited May 1, 2015 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

I wish they would revamp the comics. Instead of showing what is going on during the hiatus, they should be stand alone adventures. They can drop the occasional wink wink in there but for the most part keep it not-timeline-specific.

 

That way we wouldn't miss the good stuff and they wouldn't be tied down.

Edited May 1, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[statsgirl]

I never liked the idea of Felicity's father being Damian Darhk.  But now I hate the idea that he's a 200+ year old villain sustained by the Lazarus Pit waters with ties to the current Ra's al Ghul.    It doesn't make sense that he would be since he apparently liked with Donna and Felicity for years but much of this show doesn't make sense.

 

I'm still hoping he's a basically good guy who had to go on the run because he did something the law found criminal but he felt he had to do.  Like Oliver does.

[Genki]

@ AyChihuahua

 

Do you mean the 3.5 comics? Because yeah I understand how that would upset things. I think I liked someone's suggestions of ending the Season on a 5 month Flash-forward to the start of Season 4.

 

 

I guess I'm in the minority when I say I want Felicity's father to be the main baddie. I think it would be good for her character because then we can see her growth through interactions with the villain. I don't think we'd get a long Felicity arc if her father isn't the primary villain. He doesn't have to be the head of HIVE or whatever, but he could be the one giving out all the commands... The Seneca Crane to the President Snow...? Maybe? IDK

 

 

Agree I want Felicity to have a personal stake in the main narrative that grows her as a character. If they are going to go with her Father being in H.I.V.E I prefer it to be DD because I think he is tech savvy. But I'm Ok if he isn't I just want to reveal to be meaningful and good storytelling. Which would bring Donna back.

 

 

I wish they would revamp the comics. Instead of showing what is going on during the hiatus, they should be stand alone adventures. They can drop the occasional wink wink in there but for the most part keep it not-timeline-specific.

 

That way we wouldn't miss the good stuff and they wouldn't be tied down.

 

 

Could not agree more. Isn't that what they did with Felicity in the Flash comic book?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Genki

[Starfish35]

No, I don't want her father to be Damian Darhk. Maybe someone caught up in H.I.V.E., but not a 200+ year old bad guy. That doesn't in any way fit what little Donna and Felicity have said about him (and why would he be married to a Vegas cocktail waitress?)

I guess I'm cynical because of all the Felicity's father is Ivo! speculation from last season, but right now I'm not buying into this.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Starfish35

[Genki]

Was Donna married to Felicity's Father?

 

I agree that there is a disconnect between what Donna and Felicity have revealed and what Damian Dhark (I seriously don't know how to spell this name) seems to be all about. 

 

The Anthony Ivo speculation killed me, was so glad it turned out to be untrue. 

 

I think I prefer the idea of Felicity's Father being connected in the present, even as a Baddie, than directly to Oliver's past "on the Island". Same goes with Andy Diggle's death.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Genki

[wonderwall]

I don't want him to be Darhk either, I was thinking more like Darhk's second hand man? I think that would be interesting

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure if they were married - that might just have been my assumption. But still....what they've said doesn't fit.

I do think he'll end up being a comics character, just because of what DR said. But i don't think it will be Damian Darhk.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

I don't think it was ever directly stated that Donna was married to Felicity's father but that's the impression I got from the remembrances of how close Felicity and her father were and how Donna felt excluded.  If he was someone who just dropped by occasionally rather than living with them for the first 6 years of Felicity's life, I would have thought that the show would have mentioned it.  But then, they're often making it up as they go along.

[kismet]

Can't remember if we addressed this or not. I checked the EOnline website Calendar. The Flash Finale airs 5/19 & Arrow Finale airs 5/13. I know the time line has always been wonky on the crossovers. But I think we're supposed to assume unless they tell us otherwise they are chronological. So if that is the case, then it explains how Oliver appears to be like Oliver in the spoiler pics (isn't that his custom bow?). As most of us predicted OQ will be back to OQ by the end of the season finale. All of this smoke about him being still a hero or redeemable is probably just MG stirring trouble. Still hoping Ras gets pushed off the plane.

 

I wonder if the sorta cliffhanger might relate to the Flash finale and that is why its not a full cliffhanger in MGs book. Perhaps OQ/FS decide to drive off into the sunset and on their way they get a phone call from Barry. So whatever plans they were heading to get ruined.

[Morrigan2575]

Arrow appears on Flash in 122, not 123. His crossover airs the day before Arrow season finale.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[jay741982]

Can't remember if we addressed this or not. I checked the EOnline website Calendar. The Flash Finale airs 5/19 & Arrow Finale airs 5/13. I know the time line has always been wonky on the crossovers. But I think we're supposed to assume unless they tell us otherwise they are chronological. So if that is the case, then it explains how Oliver appears to be like Oliver in the spoiler pics (isn't that his custom bow?). As most of us predicted OQ will be back to OQ by the end of the season finale. All of this smoke about him being still a hero or redeemable is probably just MG stirring trouble. Still hoping Ras gets pushed off the plane.

 

I wonder if the sorta cliffhanger might relate to the Flash finale and that is why its not a full cliffhanger in MGs book. Perhaps OQ/FS decide to drive off into the sunset and on their way they get a phone call from Barry. So whatever plans they were heading to get ruined.

Oh if that would've been the case they could've had Oliver and Felicity visit CC just them to help Barry

[steeledwithakiss]

Oliver is a surrogate brother to Diggle. Than for Oliver not to trust him with something as big as taking Ra's offer to take him down from the inside? And a Right minded Oliver to kidnap Layla and leave baby Sara alone? I can see how trust can be affected. We don't really know how deep just that their relationship will change. Oliver doesn't share and that would cause conflict and doubt in your leader.

 

I can understand Diggle not forgiving easily the Lyla/Sara part but not telling his plan? I don't know how he could have told his team about the plan, they were never alone. And if he had tried to talk to them alone (Diggle or Felicity because I just don't see Oliver telling something so important to Laurel it's not his M.O) it could have raised suspicions. I believe Oliver is faking it and I also believe the writers want their got ya moment so that might be one of the reasons they don't have Oliver telling them anything and D/F taking things at face value. But in that episode I can see why Oliver wouldn't tell them anything. Ra's was still testing him, he had to gain his trust so he couldn't risk everything by letting them in on the plan. Maseo and the other LOA members were probably reporting to Ra's the whole time.

 

That is if Oliver just came up with this plan. If it was his plan going to NP and Malcolm was in on it, yeah I can understand D/F being mad at him. But the way Oliver was acting with Thea almost dead I'm not sure he was thinking of ways to take out Ra's. He looked like he was ready just to give up his life for his sister's. I think seeing Thea alive, Felicity still loving him after he confessed how he killed a drug dealer in cold blood and his team trying to whisk him away from NP risking their lives in the process, might have been the push he needed to fight for his own life. Of course Oliver can never be that selfish (imagine wanting to live for himself!) so they had the virus as an extra incentive and to add suspense in the last 2 episodes.

 

I still believe the season is going to end on a very positive note for Oliver and the Arrow. S1 he failed and couldn't stop the Undertaking (the Arrow part) and Tommy died (the Oliver part). Last year he stopped Slade but his mother died. This year I think he's going to beat Ra's and get his temporary happy ending with Felicity. I don't think they'll show how Thea is changed "in the soul" until s4.

Edited May 2, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[tarotx]

Nothing so far makes complete sense...but not teling Diggle put Diggle's family at risk. Plus it's not the first time Oliver keeps things to himself.

I think Thea being killed raised up the timeline. Oliver knew he would have to fight Ra's again But he wasn't ready. He knew he would have to fight off drug affects and there was aways a huge risk to hinself. I think we might learn that Maseo and Tatsu knew Oliver was going to have accept the Prophecy and become Ra's. I think they will havw known about Ra's having the Alpha and Omega virus. To defeat Ra's he was going to have to be trained by him.

[steeledwithakiss]

I think if Oliver came up with a plan it has to be between 3x20 and 3x21. I'm not sure for Maseo and Tatsu. Last year the ruse lasted what 10 minutes? They could fool the audience for 1 episode maybe 2 but not more. If Oliver realized what he was supposed to do since episode 11 that's a lot of episodes of the hero lying to the audience. I just don't think that's how the writers roll.

 

Maseo is another story. It would a pretty huge coincidence that the same reason (the virus) M/T/O worked together 5 years ago is the same reason they are joining forces now. He probably infiltrated the League for that very reason. Is Tatsu in on the plan? Maybe or she just knows why he's doing what he does but thinks what he had to do for the League is too high a price to pay.

Edited May 2, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[Morena]

Thea and Felicity scene. who will be observing them?note the take scene

Edited May 2, 2015 by Morena

[kismet]

Arrow appears on Flash in 122, not 123. His crossover airs the day before Arrow season finale.

Thanks Sorry. The pictures I had saw said Arrow in the Flash finale in the headline, didn't check the episode numbers closely.

Edited- my computer spazzed & multi posted, & then other edit failed.

Edited May 3, 2015 by kismet

[nksarmi]

I wish they would revamp the comics. Instead of showing what is going on during the hiatus, they should be stand alone adventures. They can drop the occasional wink wink in there but for the most part keep it not-timeline-specific.

 

That way we wouldn't miss the good stuff and they wouldn't be tied down.

While I think it would be cool if they filled the 3.5 comics with a Roy and Thea or Nyssa and Laurel duos - since people will want to see Oliver in the comics, I think they have to figure out a way to do this.  So, in the case of this summer, I think their best bet would be to show a time jump within the last episode and let the comics cover some small span at the end of that time jump.  That way we know Oliver really did get some time as just being Oliver Queen before he had to jump back into figuring out how to be the Arrow again.  The problem is that Flash would have to cover the same space to keep the shows aligned.

 

Conversely, since I feel like the best way to bring Oliver back as GA would be to have "The Arrow" show up in other cities while Oliver was doing something big in the media so that its perceived as it can't possibly be him when the GA finally does show up in SC next season.  They can show Roy on one mission as the Arrow with Thea, Diggle on another one with Laurel or Lyla.  Oliver can go out with Laurel in the red suit in SC over the summer.  They just need to establish such a global presence of Arrow that it defers suspicion of any one individual.  They can do all that in the comics with a little help from Barry, Roy, Ray, etc...

[catahoulamama]

I think if Oliver came up with a plan it has to be between 3x20 and 3x21. I'm not sure for Maseo and Tatsu. Last year the ruse lasted what 10 minutes? They could fool the audience for 1 episode maybe 2 but not more. If Oliver realized what he was supposed to do since episode 11 that's a lot of episodes of the hero lying to the audience. I just don't think that's how the writers roll.

 

I don't think it's safe to assume a whole lot of anything with the writers this season. From Guggenheim's quotes in TV Guide, it sounds like they may doing something at least some of the audience may not be cool with (bold):

 

Given his descent into the darkness of the League of Assassins, the big questions are “Is Oliver redeemable?” and “Can he still be a hero?” Guggenheim says.  He promises the finale will answer those questions – “or at least give a strong indication of where we’re headed in Season 4” - but that viewers may not be able to handle the truth. “Oliver’s actions in the finale are very surprising.” He continues ominously. “Any surviving cast members and the audience are going to be stunned by what is going on with him.”

I think these guys like to gamble a bit and push limits to find new ways to "shock" the audience, and habitual gamblers usually get burned eventually.

Edited May 2, 2015 by catahoulamama

[steeledwithakiss]

I guess they could have been lying to us this whole time. If they did more power to them because I don't think they've been able to surprise the audience with anything they did this year, apart maybe for Roy faking his death. I wouldn't feel betrayed. And Oliver would be, for the first time on the show, 2 steps ahead the big bad. I'm all for it, I like my heroes to be smart. I'm just not sure it's the writers M.O. At the same time I'm hoping that's what they are doing. The flashback would be really connected to what's happening, the stupidity of Ra's plan would be acknowledged, there would be a reason for Oliver's nonsensical decisions. But then looking back at The Offer, Oliver's identity crisis would have been just for show. That's harsh. And if he was really in cahoots with Maseo this whole time it means he knew how Ra's would react, killing all those people in SC and risking the lives of the people close to him (Felicity almost died and Thea mostly did). That's a pretty twisted thing to have your hero do.

Edited May 2, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[catahoulamama]

I guess they could have been lying to us this whole time. If they did more power to them because I don't think they've been able to surprise the audience with anything they did this year, apart maybe for Roy faking his death. I wouldn't feel betrayed. And Oliver would be, for the first time on the show, 2 steps ahead the big bad. I'm all for it, I like my heroes to be smart. I'm just not sure it's the writers M.O.

On the flipside, I take everything out of Guggenheim's mouth with a 50lb bag of salt. LOL.  More than anything, they've proven they think they're fooling the audience alot more often than they actually are, so it'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out and whether it lives up to all the hype. More often than not, the Arrow "smoke and mirrors game" happens in the press and PR for the show rather than the show itself.

[jay741982]

If it's a big plan I really don't want everyone mad at him at the end of the season. It would be a shitty way to end The season. And yet Diggle being the only one pissed at him at the end of the season wouldn't look good either maybe like mentioned earlier in this thread, Diggle and Laurel stay mad and Oliver's ladies he loves the most forgive him

Edited May 2, 2015 by jay741982

[Kordi]

Interesting argument in favor of an Oliver-Nyssa-marriage (from "saidthebutterfly" on TUMBLR):

 

"[...] This marriage [between Oliver and Nyssa] could be an opportunity neither can pass up once they realize the underlying benefits. What benefits, you ask? Well, I’m convinced beyond argument (after the Canadian promo) that Oliver Queen is alive and well in that tortured brain. Has he been faking all along? I don’t know. But if he hasn’t been, he definitely snapped out of it at some point in this last episode. He’s fully aware now and he recognizes how important it is to put a stop to Ra’s. But it’s going to take time, undercover work, and continuing to convince Ra’s beyond any doubt that he - Al Sah-Him - is conditioned, obedient, and loyal. I suspect he’s going to get Nyssa alone at some point and reveal his hand - he’s not brainwashed, he’s plotting to take down her father, and he needs her help. They must go through with this marriage in order to keep her father where they want him, which is blissfully ignorant and more vulnerable by the moment.

Oliver clearly has no interest in consummating this marriage, so worrying about Nyssa being forced to do anything more than recite a few vows and partake in some wedding rituals is just worrying unnecessarily. But marrying each other gives them the upper hand. Now they’re a partnership, allied in a singular battle, and given the perfect excuse to be left alone in private where they can scheme.

We’ve been told that the finale includes a pretty epic fight scene on that cargo plane, and that Oliver and Ra’s (and Nyssa, I believe) are the characters involved. So what we have here is Oliver and Nyssa, now married to further her father’s trust in Oliver, standing on the loading deck of a cargo plane with Ra’s as the Demon’s Head prepares for the trio of them to drop the Alpha-Omega down upon Starling. But in those final moments, when it’s now or never and they have Ra’s in the perfect vulnerable position, Oliver and Nyssa finally go on the attack. An epic battle that ends with Oliver putting his blade through Ra’s chest. And then kicking him out of the plane. [...]"

 

 

see: http://saidthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/117898394428/oliver-nyssa-could-be-the-best-thing-to

[nksarmi]

I kind of thought the cargo plane scene would play out something like that - I'm just having a tiny issue working Oliver's appearance on Flash into all of this.  Seriously, when does that happen? If 22 ends in a cliff hanger, it's going to be really weird for Oliver to pop over to Flash prior to the airing of Arrow's season finale which will likely pick up exactly where 22 ended.  But if they had aired in order, Oliver would have ended up over on Flash between the episode we just saw and the upcoming NP episode/wedding.

 

So, what, did Ra's ok Oliver a little trip to CC for a bachelor party?  Does Oliver tell Ra's that he and Nyssa want to honeymoon in CC? Or does Oliver make a side trip to CC that Ra's doesn't know about on his way to destroy SC with the bioweapon?

Edited May 2, 2015 by nksarmi