Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Morrigan2575]

I said the same thing in one of the episode threads. They have no story for Thea that doesn't involve being a daughter.

I suppose thus was a great idea for them. Two characters one story

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, GirlvsTV said:

If Felicity gets to punch someone in the face I really hope it's Oliver.

Is this a fulfilling wish for you or do you actually think it's in character for her to punch a guy who she broke up with 8 months ago? 

[Chaser]

I'm of two minds. On one hand if they never mention the BMD again I will be so happy. I don't want a reminder and it has been months. 

However, the break up scene was so muted (as was their interaction afterwards) that I feel like it's incomplete. Before they get back together (like an episode or two before), I would love them to have the scene they deserve. Where they just hash it out completely. I want yelling and pushing and honesty and hurt and a hell of a lot of love. 

SA and EBR would kill it.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Chaser

[apinknightmare]

I don't ever want to see either one of them lay an angry hand on the other. 

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

My guess? While in a drunken rage, Quentin hit Donna and that's why they split.  Felicity finds out several episodes later and punches Quentin... Or maybe Felicity punches out Susan Williams for publishing a story that endangers someone on Team Arrow.

I don't think they would portray Quentin as someone that hits women.  It feels out of his character.  It would be shocking though.  

7 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm confused, is this in reaction to BamBams tweet? If so, wouldn't that imply a scene from 510.

Honestly, there is just as good a chance his tweets DON'T imply a scene AT ALL since he could have just been commenting on that recent video posted showing EBR working out and displaying her kickboxing and punching skills, but it's a lot of fun to dream.  And yes, I know his tweets really imply otherwise but all he really confirmed was EBR gets to do some stunts, was in the same room with him at the time and that she has a great right hook. Which the video showed. I guess I'm trying not seriously get my hopes up.  

Chances are if she does get to punch someone, it will be random thug number 2.  

Edited October 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I don't ever want to see either one of them lay an angry hand on the other. 

I agree. If they do, that sort of makes them as toxic as Laurel/Oliver. I don't want that. Domestic abuse isn't a good look at all and would take the shine off the couple even more. 

[Chaser]

Oh no. I mean pushing in an emotional sense, not physically shoving each other. 

Im thinking Lucas and Peyton in S5(?). I don't ship the couple but I loved the scene.

[BkWurm1]

Just now, wonderwall said:

I agree. If they do, that sort of makes them as toxic as Laurel/Oliver. I don't want that. Domestic abuse isn't a good look at all and would take the shine off the couple even more. 

True.  I really don't want Felicity to punch Oliver but I think I still want to hit him.  

[GirlvsTV]

24 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Is this a fulfilling wish for you or do you actually think it's in character for her to punch a guy who she broke up with 8 months ago? 

 

8 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I'm of two minds. On one hand if they never mention the BMD again I will be so happy. I don't want a reminder and it has been months. 

However, the break up scene was so muted (as was their interaction afterwards) that I feel like it's incomplete. Before they get back together (like an episode or two before), I would love them to have the scene they deserve. Where they just hash it out completely. I want yelling and pushing and honesty and hurt and a hell of a lot of love. 

SA and EBR would kill it.

If they actually had a scene where Oliver and Felicity truly got to have a confrontation about what happened between them last season, if it was heated enough, I don't actually think it would be ooc for Felicity to pop him one in the face. Especially if he retained his whiny, poor-me stance regarding the BMD and continued to refrain from actually apologizing to Felicity for it. I'd love for Felicity to have a chance to stand up for herself in the break up, since she was the wronged party. Also, it would be cathartic as a viewer to see Oliver confronted for his terrible choices and behavior towards someone he intended to marry while lying / keeping a huge life-altering secret from his fiancée.

A huge part of why I hate the BMD so much is the show's attempt to soften/excuse Oliver for it. It basically ruined him as a character for me. Even if O/F were never going to be together again, simply having him at some point own up to his stupid choices and apologize to the person he wronged would have gone a long way towards keeping me around as a viewer. As it is, I find him completely unlikable and can't bring myself to care about what happens to him any longer.

So yeah, I'd love for her to get chance to punch him. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

27 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I'm of two minds. On one hand if they never mention the BMD again I will be so happy. I don't want a reminder and it has been months. 

However, the break up scene was so muted (as was their interaction afterwards) that I feel like it's incomplete. Before they get back together (like an episode or two before), I would love them to have the scene they deserve. Where they just hash it out completely. I want yelling and pushing and honesty and hurt and a hell of a lot of love. 

SA and EBR would kill it.

I read that pushing as emotional as well, probably because I want this scene, too. I think they need a big blowup to clear the air. Something that would be cathartic for both the characters AND the audience. You're right, the breakup was so muted and the show really didn't spend that much time on the emotional fallout. If anything, it felt like the hurt was piled on in 416. And then they suddenly had them friendly in 420 and now in Season 5. There are steps missing. And I could buy that Oliver & Felicity are both just ignoring that and trying to pretend everything is normal between them, but an "angry and hurt" scene would go a long way toward making it right emotionally for viewers as well. 

[wonderwall]

I don't understand the need for violence here. Felicity ins't a violent person. She never was and never will be. I don't get the need for her to act so out of character as some sort of wish fulfillment thing. I get that that what Oliver did was bad. It was horrible. But does that mean he deserves to be violently hit? I'm speechless. This is kind of gross and disgusting. Because turn the tables around... If Felicity screws up incredibly badly like Oliver did, do you guys think Oliver should shove her around? 

I'm out of this conversation. This is just terrible. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by wonderwall

[fangirlforever320]

4 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I don't understand the need for violence here. Felicity ins't a violent person. She never was and never will be. I don't get the need for her to act so out of character as some sort of wish fulfillment thing. I get that that what Oliver did was bad. It was horrible. But are we all really saying that he deserves to be violently hit? I'm speechless. This is kind of gross and disgusting. Because turn the tables around... If Felicity screws up incredibly badly like Oliver did, do you guys think Oliver should shove her around? 

I'm out of this conversation. This is just terrible. 

Sorry, but I kind of have to agree with this. 

[apinknightmare]

Just now, fangirlforever320 said:

Sorry, but I kind of have to agree with this. 

You shouldn't apologize for that - hurtful and disappointing personal behavior doesn't deserve physical violence. What a gross method of conflict resolution.

[BkWurm1]

To be clear, the above posters that mentioned the shoving clarified that they meant emotional push back in a heated and open verbal fight.  

Edited October 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[SmallScreenDiva]

My only concern with a emotional fight between Oliver & Felicity is that I have absolutely no trust that the writers would write it in a manner that doesn't make Felicity out to be the bad guy. I mean, they essentially made her that when they doubled down on Oliver's reasoning for lying about the kid. 

[Chaser]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

To be clear, the above posters that mentioned the shoving clarified that they meant emotional push back in a heated and open verbal fight.  

Thank you.

I so did not mean a domestic violence situation. 

[apinknightmare]

Just now, Chaser said:

Thank you.

I so did not mean a domestic violence situation. 

I think most people are responding to @GirlvsTV's post, not yours. :)

Edited October 29, 2016 by apinknightmare

[GirlvsTV]

Of course I'd never condone this kind behavior in real life, but we're talking about a superhero television show in which the main character, the titular hero, kills people and shoots arrows into his allies. He is currently training an underage teenager to be a vigilante. I don't think him getting slapped in the heat of the moment is out of the question, sorry. 

[wonderwall]

4 minutes ago, GirlvsTV said:

Of course I'd never condone this kind behavior in real life, but we're talking about a superhero television show in which the main character, the titular hero, kills people and shoots arrows into his allies. He is currently training an underage teenager to be a vigilante. I don't think him getting slapped in the heat of the moment is out of the question, sorry. 

So... it's OK for Felicity to get slapped too then if she does something as bad as Oliver? I mean it's a superhero television show after all so of course it's OK for her to get slapped as long as she learns her lesson... Since when has making exceptions for domestic abuse been OK? 

Edited October 29, 2016 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

25 minutes ago, GirlvsTV said:

Of course I'd never condone this kind behavior in real life, but we're talking about a superhero television show in which the main character, the titular hero, kills people and shoots arrows into his allies. He is currently training an underage teenager to be a vigilante. I don't think him getting slapped in the heat of the moment is out of the question, sorry. 

Well, a slap is historically viewed as more of a theatrical response to an affront of honor than an actual hit BUT in reality slaps are physically awful.  They are humiliating and hurt like hell whether delivered by a man or woman.  (My sister in law slapped me once for pointing out the way they left their dog locked up in the kennel for days at a time was abuse. My response was to ask if she was insane. )

That said, I am still so accustom to them being viewed when delivered by a woman as not actually a physical blow that I'm kind of on the fence about a slap being ok for a woman to deliver on TV.   I'm pretty much on the side of it's not something I'd get worked up about on screen and even would find forgivable in real life if delivered just after a woman found out her husband had cheated but it's a grey area where I know my opinion isn't really rooted in reality, but in the tv and silverscreen stereotype.   

I'm only for popping anyone a right hook as theoretical, not in any reality on screen or real life unless we are talking bad guy.  

Edited October 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Carrie Ann]

I enjoy superhero/sci-fi/fantasy stuff because while the circumstances and events are heightened, the emotions feel grounded in reality. This show screws that up sometimes by making people react in ways that are not...normal for humans, IMO, but I would not continue to find a character sympathetic if they were violent with a partner and I wouldn't believe it of anyone on the show.

Anyhoo, I think SA said that thing about O/F being "reconciled" or "on the same page" or whatever it was because they are never going to have that fight that people want them to have. I don't think Felicity is harboring feelings of rage--if she ever felt rage, which I didn't get from her at all--this long past the breakup. I think her "lingering feelings" about it are probably distrust and a hurt that she is handling by keeping her walls up when it comes to Oliver. Whether we'll ever see any conversation between them related to those things, I don't know.

[Thundercatmary]

Well intentional or not the writers, for me at least, have left the Oliver/Felicity relationship unresolved in a lot of ways. Maybe them having a big confrontation/fight would bring some amount of clarity or resolution, but I don't see them doing that.  I can only hope we see them gradually repairing things and yes I do want to see them reconcile eventually. 

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said:

Anyhoo, I think SA said that thing about O/F being "reconciled" or "on the same page" or whatever it was because they are never going to have that fight that people want them to have. I don't think Felicity is harboring feelings of rage--if she ever felt rage, which I didn't get from her at all--this long past the breakup. I think her "lingering feelings" about it are probably distrust and a hurt that she is handling by keeping her walls up when it comes to Oliver. Whether we'll ever see any conversation between them related to those things, I don't know.

I agree.  It's hard to imagine them fighting about the past at this point with rage as the motivator.  I could imagine a lot of sorrow still bubbling up, just the huge amount of regret for what could have been if only, but the angry confrontation seemed off the table by the time they went gambling together to teach Oliver how to fight the dark magic.  

I do hope that at some point Oliver and Felicity acknowledge that she has put up these walls between them.  She doesn't let herself lean on Oliver in a personal kind of way even as she still is there for him and I really want Oliver to realize it and have him acknowledge how painful it really is not to be let all the way in just like he didn't let Felicity all the way in last year with the BMD.    

[SmallScreenDiva]

8 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said:

Whether we'll ever see any conversation between them related to those things, I don't know.

Sadly, I don't think we'll ever see such conversation between them because that would mean dredging up the horrid baby mama drama and the writers seem very keen on making the audience forget that. But I think that's the wrong tack to take with this story because even if Felicity hasn't exhibited any lingering rage or resentment against Oliver, I think a lot of people in the audience do, as evidenced by some comments on this board that supports him getting punched. I can't count how many times I've heard the phrase "I wanted to smack him" with regards to Oliver and his lie after episodes 408 and 415. I don't think these people really wanted to harm a fictional character but are just so frustrated by his decision and reasoning. I think the writers/the show have misjudged that and it has contributed to people dropping Arrow. Hard to watch, support or root for a hero you want to smack, really.

[GirlvsTV]

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

So... it's OK for Felicity to get slapped too then if she does something as bad as Oliver? I mean it's a superhero television show after all so of course it's OK for her to get slapped as long as she learns her lesson... Since when has making exceptions for domestic abuse been OK? 

Where in the world did I say that? 

I stated that in a given scenario I would not have found it ooc for FELICITY to possibly be angry/hurt enough over the BMD drama to hit Oliver. I never said I thought it was a great decision on her part, but that I could have seen it playing out on the show. Some other posters hit on the fact that we really never got a huge emotional blow up - especially on Feclicity's part. Since her character so rarely gets to express her emotions in a big way, I think would have been revealing for her to get to a point where she might have kind-of released it all and ended up hitting him. I think it would've been insight into how hurt she was over Oliver's betrayal, that it actually got her to that point.

Do I think that spoiler is about her hitting Oliver? Of course not. Probably just some baddie of the week.

[catrox14]

IF Felicity punches Oliver maybe it's not in anger at all.

Maybe she punches Oliver because he is not in his right mind, acting dangerously etc, and she is the only person who can get close enough to him to work in a cold cock to take him down long enough to tranq him or something like that. If she lands the punch in the right spot she could take him down for the moment.

Edited October 29, 2016 by catrox14

[doesntworkonwood]

3 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Sadly, I don't think we'll ever see such conversation between them because that would mean dredging up the horrid baby mama drama and the writers seem very keen on making the audience forget that. But I think that's the wrong tack to take with this story because even if Felicity hasn't exhibited any lingering rage or resentment against Oliver, I think a lot of people in the audience do, as evidenced by some comments on this board that supports him getting punched. I can't count how many times I've heard the phrase "I wanted to smack him" with regards to Oliver and his lie after episodes 408 and 415. I don't think these people really wanted to harm a fictional character but are just so frustrated by his decision and reasoning. I think the writers/the show have misjudged that and it has contributed to people dropping Arrow. Hard to watch, support or root for a hero you want to smack, really.

It's frustrating because no one on the show has actually called Oliver out on his lie, not even Felicity herself. It feels like we're moving on to the fallout without acknowledging what actually happened. With the way that people (like WM and SA) have been talking about the relationship, I doubt that BMD will actually be brought up (and to a certain extent I don't actually want it brought up), but that just leaves us with a lot of ambiguity and no actual closure on that particular chapter. I've been enjoying the Olicity scenes so far, but there's certainly a sense of 'weirdness' attached to them just because it is so difficult to see where they actually stand and how they're going to get to the point of being together again (which I have no doubt they will get to). 

Everyone has sort of moved on from it. I think I would have much preferred it to be Oliver or Felicity that had left instead of Digg at the end of the last series just because it would have allowed us to come back to a place where I still understood what was going on with their relationship.

[BkWurm1]

8 minutes ago, GirlvsTV said:

Where in the world did I say that? 

I stated that in a given scenario I would not have found it ooc for FELICITY to possibly be angry/hurt enough over the BMD drama to hit Oliver. I never said I thought it was a great decision on her part, but that I could have seen it playing out on the show. Some other posters hit on the fact that we really never got a huge emotional blow up - especially on Feclicity's part. Since her character so rarely gets to express her emotions in a big way, I think would have been revealing for her to get to a point where she might have kind-of released it all and ended up hitting him. I think it would've been insight into how hurt she was over Oliver's betrayal, that it actually got her to that point.

Do I think that spoiler is about her hitting Oliver? Of course not. Probably just some baddie of the week.

I think for as angry as Felicity was about what happened, the circumstances always set it up so that she was hurt so much more than she was mad.  For that I am the tiniest bit grateful because I don't want to think about the circumstances they'd have to have rigged to push her to that level of rage toward Oliver to actually hit him.  

[tarotx]

Felicity and Oliver have had heated fights. I don't even get the need to see that again. Let alone it accelerate into physical violence. That's just not them. Felicity decided to leave Oliver because he didn't include her in important moments of his life. He didn't trust her enough to be a true partner. She said all that to him a couple of times. That's all I needed for the actual breakup. I personally didn't even "mind" the visual of Felicity getting up and walking out. What was missing in that scene and most Felicity scenes is emotional pov being about her. This was a big moment within her two major storylines and it was all about how it affected Oliver. Oliver's my favorite character and he's the lead but big moments aren't one sided. 

I would have loved to see her stages of acceptance or grief within her shooting, paralyze, breakup and the Havenrock storylines. We often just get the beginning and end. Felicity is treated like a secondary character when it comes to Plot POV at the same time she is given huge life moments which deserve being able to breathe and be explored through her character pov. Pretty much she is treated like the female lead in screen time and "important" life moments but at the speed of what a secondary character would get. At least we got to see her talk it out with Curtis so the Felicity/Rory talk felt real. Though I still would have liked to see her deal with the pain before bringing Rory into play.

And on a side note, Rory didn't have to be a guy. A young female could be under those rags. That way it wouldn't feel like Felicity was being used to move the storyline of another character with a penis. And we could have built a female/female friendship. And this way we wouldn't have had to bring Evelyn back at all. 

Edited October 30, 2016 by tarotx

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe she punches Oliver because he is not in his right mind, acting dangerously etc, and she is the only person who can get close enough to him to work in a cold cock to take him down long enough to tranq him or something like that. If she lands the punch in the right spot she could take him down for the moment.

Trade distracting him with a punch in this situation to distracting him with a kiss and I'm all in.  ;)

[catrox14]

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

Trade distracting him with a punch in this situation to distracting him with a kiss and I'm all in.  ;)

I don't think a kiss is really gonna work in my scenario. 

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think a kiss is really gonna work in my scenario. 

Well, if we are appealing to animal instincts, he might just let her get close enough for that reason since he'd not be thinking with the higher functioning brain, lol.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well, if we are appealing to animal instincts, he might just let her get close enough for that reason since he'd not be thinking with the higher functioning brain, lol.  

LOL I'm thinking he won't want to actually be touched by anyone so she'd have to be within arm's length to clock him.

I'm thinking like a Rick/Michonne scenario. :)

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think for as angry as Felicity was about what happened, the circumstances always set it up so that she was hurt so much more than she was mad.  For that I am the tiniest bit grateful because I don't want to think about the circumstances they'd have to have rigged to push her to that level of rage toward Oliver to actually hit him.  

Agreed. 

It's a violent show, we've seen Oliver and Co. beat up/kill a number of people, so the violence obviously doesn't bother me. But romantic partners/former romantic partners hitting/slapping in the heat of a moment during a fight skirts very close to/is domestic violence, and I want the show to stay far away from that as much as they possibly can. They already bring the ick factor to so many relationships without it. 

[Chaser]

The conversation plus the comment about others in their lives could never mean the same translates prepare for temp love interests.

[Belinea]

That is exactly how I was reading it. People will come (and hopefully go) but it won't mean the same.

I am curious just how long Felicity's relationship will last because we have no idea when they met nor does anyone feel the need to tell us. If they are still together after the 5x09, they will have been together for almost as long as O/F which is quite a while even if they don't mean the same to you as the ex.

Also, how annoying does it have to be to try and get away from a topic and the questions regarding said topic still keep on coming. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Belinea

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Belinea said:

Also, how annoying does it have to be to try and get away from a topic and the question regarding said topic still keep on coming. 

I hope it's annoying as hell.

[BkWurm1]

40 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I hope it's annoying as hell.

This X 100

Yeah, I know I'm not going to love the conversation about where they are since clearly they are not where I want them, but it's nothing I didn't already know was coming. 

But if I have to suffer, I want them (everyone involved in making me suffer) to share the pain as well.   

[Thundercatmary]

The thing is if they truly wanted to drop Olicity for good they should be giving Felicity and Mayo's relationship some development, as it is it's just there annoying and pissing people off lol.

[fangirlforever320]

1 minute ago, Thundercatmary said:

The thing is if they truly wanted to drop Olicity for good they should be giving Felicity and Mayo's relationship some development, as it is it's just there annoying and pissing people off lol.

which just means that they don't intend to drop Olicity. They want us to worry they will, clearly, but it's plain as day to anyone scratching the surface that there will be a reunion at some point. I don't much care when, personally. I'm okay with waiting so long as I still have hope. 

[Thundercatmary]

2 minutes ago, fangirlforever320 said:

which just means that they don't intend to drop Olicity. They want us to worry they will, clearly, but it's plain as day to anyone scratching the surface that there will be a reunion at some point. I don't much care when, personally. I'm okay with waiting so long as I still have hope. 

I agree to a point, but I've always thought what's the point of a couple being endgame if the road there is garbage? Not saying it has been, because for the most part Olicity has been great imo opinion and ofc Stephen/Emily chemistry is off the charts, but with BMD and this Mayo stuff it's really testing my patience.  

[fangirlforever320]

5 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

I agree to a point, but I've always thought what's the point of a couple being endgame if the road there is garbage? Not saying it has been, because for the most part Olicity has been great imo opinion and ofc Stephen/Emily chemistry is off the charts, but with BMD and this Mayo stuff it's really testing my patience.  

I think that's where it comes down to personal preference. Personally, I don't think the road is or has been or will be garbage. DOesn't mean I don't think missteps have been made, but when I sit down and consider the bad and the good, the good far outweighs the bad and I'm overall satisfied with the journey, as it were. Because I agree, I don't think endgame means a lot if you don't enjoy the journey. But I would rather see Arrow fumble through this journey, missteps and all, than, say, ignore Olicity for two more seasons and hurriedly reunite them at the end of the last season (pulling a HIMYM, in a way). 

I do understand not everyone shares this opinion. I just see a lot of fans who are upset saying all Olicity fans hate this when... not entirely true. I am an Olicity fan and while I acknowledge the missteps, I enjoy the journey overall. At least so far. And yes, I'm allowing for them dating other people in that because I don't feel that particularly ruins anything. At least not for me. Then again, I didn't detest the BMD as much as some did. Was it sloppy? Hell yes. But I could understand it. Compare that to Oliver marrying Nyssa at the end of season 3. I still don't understand why they had to do that. Even just thinking about it gets me all offended all over again. ;)

Edited October 29, 2016 by fangirlforever320

[Thundercatmary]

1 minute ago, fangirlforever320 said:

Compare that to Oliver marrying Nyssa at the end of season 3. I still don't understand why they had to do that. Even just thinking about it gets me all offended all over again. ;)

Oh man don't get me started on that, hated that and it made no sense and served no narrative purpose that I could see. 

[Chaser]

SA just followed an actress named Juliana Harkavy on Twitter. I don't recognize her but her last three follows were Arrow, DC and SA.

I don't see her under the casting dudes recent follows but still. That could be their new hire. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

SA just followed an actress named Juliana Harkavy on Twitter. I don't recognize her but her last three follows were Arrow, DC and SA.

I don't see her under the casting dudes recent follows but still. That could be their new hire. 

I checked her IMDB and I vaguely remember her from the Walking Dead. She was also on Constantine.   Meh.

[Thundercatmary]

I feel bad (but only a little lol) because no matter who is cast as NuCanary it's a no go for me before it even starts, but that's just me.

[apinknightmare]

She's in Canada filming something right now according to her Twitter - are they still on 5x10? Or have they started 5x11 yet?

Edited October 30, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

Yep. Still on 5x10.

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

Question was "will Olicity get back together" then Stephen responded and said "I don't know, I just read the scripts" and with a grin looks over at Greg and then Greg responded as such.

^^^From Social Media Thread

Well this just ups my estimate damn, it might be MSF or MSP reunion instead of Feb Sweeps.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[calliope1975]

I am one of those fans that feels the temp LI's fall in the garbage story telling pile, but I just choose to not watch/acknowledge those scenes because I am apparently 5 years old. What's funny (to me) is, while I'm sure I wouldn't like it, I probably wouldn't care as much and view it as standard ship stalling if Olicity hadn't been almost married last year. That's the straw that broke my shipper back. 

Anyhoo, I'm glad that there's some hopeful rhetoric being spouted now. 

Was there spoiler talk of a flashback LI for Russia? Did I make that up?