Spoiler Discussion Thread

[EmeraldArcher]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

If you check the IMDB boards it'll be self explanatory. 

I must be especially dense then, because it's not self explanatory to me. My guess is that WH became top billed female actor, but I didn't see a key for understanding cast list order. Oh well.

[dtissagirl]

6 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

Just wondering if it's a comment on FS's role or EBR's screen time in these episodes.

Not at all, it's IMDb users gaming the episode lists to showcase their preferences.

[Chaser]

I keep forgetting about Reporter lady.  It may be my subconscious is blocking out any potential Temp LI for fear of the suckage.

[EmeraldArcher]

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

Not at all, it's IMDb users gaming the episode lists to showcase their preferences.

Thank you.  My only impression of that site is that it is a hybrid of industry site and fan site, which can make it very confusing to understand.

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I must be especially dense then, because it's not self explanatory to me. My guess is that WH became top billed female actor, but I didn't see a key for understanding cast list order. Oh well.

IMDB isn't an official source. It's mostly updated by people like us. Sort of like Wikipedia. So in the end it's preference. And if you look at their message boards, it's obvious why she's way down there.

[Chaser]

IMDB listed KC as a voice on S1 Vixen based off of a GA and BC fanart.

Grain of salt peeps.

[dtissagirl]

Just now, EmeraldArcher said:

Thank you.  My only impression of that site is that it is a hybrid of industry site and fan site, which can make it very confusing to understand.

It sells itself as an industry site, but content is editable by anyone with an account.

Every movie festival I've ever worked with has a rule -- no IMDb info unless it can be verified by 2-3 other independent sources.

[EmeraldArcher]

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

IMDB isn't an official source. It's mostly updated by people like us. Sort of like Wikipedia. So in the end it's preference. And if you look at their message boards, it's obvious why she's way down there.

Ah ha!  Yes, you're right about that.  They love autumn fruit on that site, if I recall.  

I kept staring at the episode list trying to see the self-explanatory revelation, and could not find it there. 

[Morrigan2575]

Isn't it based on the number of episodes they appear in? As series regulars, SA, DR, WH PB have all been credited for 116 (which is actually 1 more than it should be 5x23)

EBR 92 episodes (4x23) plus her individual episode count for S1 (17 episodes) which should come to 109 (credited for 110).

[wonderwall]

5 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

Ah ha!  Yes, you're right about that.  They love autumn fruit on that site, if I recall.  

I kept staring at the episode list trying to see the self-explanatory revelation, and could not find it there. 

If you look here, episode 5 has been proven to be a HUGE Olicity episode yet Emily is still listed in the other cast members

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5584148/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_21

Also Willa hardly has the screentime Emily has on an episode to episode basis. So it's clearly a bias thing going on.

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

Ah ha!  Yes, you're right about that.  They love autumn fruit on that site, if I recall.  

I kept staring at the episode list trying to see the self-explanatory revelation, and could not find it there. 

Yeah, nothing more than the fact that since they voted to move EBR to "listed alphabetically", because of her last name she's listed below even the guest stars in the episode. 

Good to know that the industry doesn't take IMDB seriously, though.

[dtissagirl]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Isn't it based on the number of episodes they appear in? As series regulars, SA, DR, WH PB have all been credited for 116 (which is actually 1 more than it should be 5x23)

EBR 92 episodes (4x23) plus her individual episode count for S1 (17 episodes) which should come to 109 (credited for 110).

In the Arrow main page, yes, # of episodes defaults. In individual episode pages, users can edit whether someone is listed as regular, or listed alphabetically.

[EmeraldArcher]

I've just never been one to derive a sense of smug satisfaction in doing something that has no impact whatsoever on reality. I don't understand the effort to change things like cast list order.

On the bright side, I've thought more about SA/OQ's crediting Malcolm with "whatever it takes" as a return to lethality. Perhaps this means that S5 will end with OQ killing MM once and for all?  MM originally taunted Oliver at the end of S1 with that idea, so maybe Oliver's S4 acknowledgment that MM was at the root of every bad thing will finally play out and pay off.

[wonderwall]

Wild Dog is basically the only newbie I'm excited about (because I really like the actor) so I'm kind of excited for him and Diggle bonding. I also can't wait to see his reaction to the newbies. Digg can be very passive aggressive with his snark lol

[Guest]

Diggle is me. I like it. LOL.

[Chaser]

Idk. That wasn't the impression I got from DR. From DR, it seemed Diggle isn't going to be happy with all these inexperienced, untrained newbies hitting the streets after what happened with Laurel (still laughing at him saying Laurel wasn't at Diggle and Oliver's level). WM makes it seem like Diggle it offended by the new team.

[EmeraldArcher]

I love how she called the newbies "new superfriends." I wonder how fast they'll call themselves heroes?

[SmallScreenDiva]

"New superfriends" seems to have come from the writer, not Wendy. The phrase is outside the quotes. As for them being called heroes? At the end of premiere episode :P

Edited September 14, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

I say this as a friend--y'all really, really need the season to start soon so you have something new to discuss.   A deep dive on the mechanics of IMDB listings is really scraping the bottom of the conversational barrel and its making me sad for everyone.  Also, I'm slightly afraid you're going to start burning things out of sheer boredom.   

[lemotomato]

I dunno, @MuuMuuChainsmoker, you might regret saying that when we go back to our 10 new pages a day posting rate :P 

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Don't get me wrong--from a mod perspective, when I realized that we were only a couple weeks away from the start of the season, I was all:

[wonderwall]

GET THOSE CUTE BABY/ANIMAL GIFS READY. PREMIER SEASON IS ALMOST HERE :')

Edited September 15, 2016 by wonderwall
Ugh used the wrong word

[Starfish35]

19 minutes ago, MuuMuuChainsmoker said:

I say this as a friend--y'all really, really need the season to start soon so you have something new to discuss.   A deep dive on the mechanics of IMDB listings is really scraping the bottom of the conversational barrel and its making me sad for everyone.  Also, I'm slightly afraid you're going to start burning things out of sheer boredom.   

Thanks, I needed that laugh. :) (Truly, no sarcasm.)

11 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

GET THOSE CUTE BABY/ANIMAL GIFS READY. PREMIER SEASON IS ALMOST HERE :')

Lol yeah I was wondering what pilot you were so excited about. 

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Lol yeah I was wondering what pilot you were so excited about. 

Don't judge me I'm tired D:

[Starfish35]

No judgement intended! 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

He says to Thea in the premiere that he has to admit Malcolm Merlyn is right: If he is not willing to do whatever is necessary, then he should not be out there at all. I think that makes a more interesting character, because it’s more dynamic. There are more colors to it.”

 

 

8 hours ago, EmeraldArcher said:

On the bright side, I've thought more about SA/OQ's crediting Malcolm with "whatever it takes" as a return to lethality. Perhaps this means that S5 will end with OQ killing MM once and for all?  MM originally taunted Oliver at the end of S1 with that idea, so maybe Oliver's S4 acknowledgment that MM was at the root of every bad thing will finally play out and pay off.

I was so pissed that Oliver (ok SA but he's speaking for Oliver) credits Malcolm with being right.  There are lines that should never be crossed and it's absurd that anyone not evil would deny that but if putting up with that attitude in the early season gets me the finale where Oliver does whatever it takes and ends Malcolm, then I will forgive him. 

But do I really believe they are ready to kill JB?  Am I ready for that even?  Malcolm, absolutely, but Barrowman? 

I'm oddly conflicted. I now will be really bummed if they don't pay off Oliver agreeing with Malcolm by killing him by the end of the season but I also kind of want an Earth 2 Malcolm that's just a jerk and not evil. 

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I'm crossing my fingers for Carly Pope's character to be interesting, because she's currently guest-recurring in this season of Suits as the none-at-all developed love interest of the dude who looks like a rabid rabbit on steroids, and I don't think ANYTHING can be worse than that.

On Suits it's a thankless job.  Her character was never given a reason to actually want to be in that relationship.  I do adore Louis but he's also a weird woodchuck of a man with anger issues and impulse control.   It's clear why he's interested, she's gorgeous, but the show skipped over her ever being exposed to any of his better qualities. 

But on an Arrow related front, I'm more inclined to think that there will be some romance between Oliver and her character.  I'm hoping it will be limited to maybe her flirting to get a story, but tonight when I saw her name in the credits when I was watching Suites and actually paid attention to who she was, I realized that although she maybe considered "old" at 36 (insert eye roll) she absolutely would come off on screen as Oliver Queen's peer and if this show didn't plan on making the most of that vibe, then they would have cast the character differently. 

Again, crossing my fingers that there's just some work related flirt on her end but I'm kind of expecting more. It would be a minor miracle if Felicity had a boyfriend but Oliver didn't even have a fling. 

Praying for that miracle!!! 

[foreverevolving]

4 hours ago, MuuMuuChainsmoker said:

I say this as a friend--y'all really, really need the season to start soon so you have something new to discuss.   A deep dive on the mechanics of IMDB listings is really scraping the bottom of the conversational barrel and its making me sad for everyone.  Also, I'm slightly afraid you're going to start burning things out of sheer boredom.   

I'm doing worse: i'm actually cleaning my apartment!!

That being said, i'm moving to a new one so I would have done this anyway.

Edited September 15, 2016 by foreverevolving

[apinknightmare]

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was so pissed that Oliver (ok SA but he's speaking for Oliver) credits Malcolm with being right. 

I'll be in the minority: this doesn't really bother me, because Malcolm is gross and should be dead and is totally terrible, but he wasn't wrong. In broader context of that quote (SA talking about S1 Oliver being willing to kill, and Oliver of S2 and after not being willing to kill and now being somewhere in the middle), it makes sense. Oliver's no-kill rule was stupid, and probably got him into more trouble than it helped. It's okay to kill some of these nasties, and I think it would be really good for Oliver to acknowledge that - regardless of who put the thought in his mind. It's especially okay to kill Malcolm, but...LOL @ hoping that will ever happen.

Edited September 15, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

The no-kill rule seems to only exist to keep Malcolm alive anyway, so I would really appreciate the poetic justice of Oliver listening to Malcolm about this if it means decapitating Malcolm is the outcome.

[looptab]

The problem I have with Oliver recognizing the truth of Malcolm's 'advice' is that it's the eightysixth time he has learnt this. But as we know, it's an issue Arrow has with every lesson Oliver has to learn. He was willing to do 'whatever, whatever it takes' in 309 already. He killed Ra's al Guhl with no second thoughts - and he didn't wonder if it was the right thing to do before he did. 

[apinknightmare]

The repetitive lesson learning (and spotty application of the no-kill rule) is tiresome for sure. But if something Malcolm said, like FOUR YEARS AGO finally sinks in and makes that spotty no-kill rule die a horrible death, then I'm all for it. Although, with the way this show goes, it'll probably just result in another spotty no-kill rule, haha.  

[dtissagirl]

I don't even think of the no-kill rule as character development for Oliver anymore. It totally was in S2, both in the pathos of honoring Tommy by not killing, and in Oliver deciding not to kill Slade in the end because he could. But in the last 2 seasons... the no-kill rule doesn't apply to Malcolm, and it doesn't apply to the Big Bad of the season in the finale episode. The kind of amendment they can do to it now is maybe it's okay to kill Low-to-Mid Bads in non-finale episodes, on a case to case basis. It's plot-driven, it has nothing to do with Oliver learning anything.

[EmeraldArcher]

59 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't even think of the no-kill rule as character development for Oliver anymore. It totally was in S2, both in the pathos of honoring Tommy by not killing, and in Oliver deciding not to kill Slade in the end because he could. But in the last 2 seasons... the no-kill rule doesn't apply to Malcolm, and it doesn't apply to the Big Bad of the season in the finale episode. The kind of amendment they can do to it now is maybe it's okay to kill Low-to-Mid Bads in non-finale episodes, on a case to case basis. It's plot-driven, it has nothing to do with Oliver learning anything.

I completely agree.

What's frustrating is that Oliver already acknowledged the truth of Malcolm's words when he "killed" him on the rooftop during the Undertaking.  Even at the point in S1 when Malcolm taunted Oliver about his unwillingness to do whatever it took, Oliver had been a killer.  Furthermore, Malcolm's words were in the context of the Undertaking; it was how he justified his mass murder of hundreds. Malcolm was willing to do whatever it took to take vengeance for his wife's death--yeah, that's a great lesson for a hero.

By suiting up every night and doing his best to protect the city, Oliver has been doing whatever it takes. He traded the easy life of a billionaire, he avoided distractions (QC, initially Felicity, a job, suit shopping), he ran for mayor--all of these things have shown Oliver's willingness to save the city at great cost. Even his no-kill rule has been moot for awhile now.

Oliver's hero's journey was instigated by Malcolm's villainy.  It's just a little too much for the hero to validate anything the villain does, especially one as despicable as Malcolm has been to Oliver's city and his family.

[catrox14]

Ugh.  I defend Malcolm's presence on the show because he's the dark Archer and WAS CLEARLY established as Olivers  arch enemy in s1. Oliver clearly understood and rightly blamed Malcolm for every shit thing that happened to Oliver. Why would Oliver credit Malcolm for anything now?Malcolm told Oliver he lost because he didn't know what he was fighting for. Well Oliver figured that out before Tommy was murdered by Malcolm. The only way I can accept Oliver giving credit to Malcolm for anything would be as a result of the Flashpoint crap.

[Guest]

I'm a bit behind on the thread so I'm jumping back a few topics.

I'm torn between Prometheus being Tommy (didn't they want to make him the baddie anyway, going by their original series plan?) and someone Oliver inadvertently set on a dark path with his earlier actions in s1. So if we go by the legacy theme, it makes sense for it to be someone from 106 "Legacies." I can see the Arrow writers being quite on the nose with that tbh. Haha. The question is, which Reston son would it be? Wasn't there two of them?

[dtissagirl]

The ginormous amount of bullshit writing that has to go into making Tommy Prometheus is already making me tired.

[Guest]

Yeah, that and CD is on another show. But I will put nothing past these writers tbh.

[Starfish35]

If Colin Donnell didn't have another show right now, I might think that was possible, but as it is, eh. I doubt it.

[Guest]

I think it's safe to assume it's someone from s1 though. They said they're making a lot of callbacks to that season. We need a chart of all the people Oliver wronged. LOL.

[Velocity23]

If its the Restons brothers i bet its due to the mother dying. Apparently the younger Teddy was mentioned on the Flash in s1 and he took on the nickname of his dad "King".

[dtissagirl]

If they're tying 501 being called Legacy with 106 being called Legacies, there's no way they'll resist making anvilistic references [while thinking they're being super subtle, obvi], like mentioning the Royal Flush Gang in passing.

[SmallScreenDiva]

But bullshit writing is what Arrow writers do! ;) 

I know Prometheus doesn't even have to be someone we've "met" in Season 1. Just like in "Captain Amercia: Civil War" the enemy could be someone who was affected by what Oliver did during the first season. Maybe it's as the Hood or maybe it's because the other earthquake machine went off. But I can't help but think, after 4 seasons of watching what these writers spew, that Guggenheim and Friends would go for a "gotcha!" That's why I'm leaning toward Tommy. And I don't think Colin being a regular on another show is a problem. They can keep Prometheus in a mask with a voice modulator for the whole season and just use Colin for the reveal at the end of the season.

Another thing that made me think of Tommy is what Stephen said about Flashpoint impact showing up early and toward the end of the season. That made me thing Big Bad. Maybe Flashpoint means Tommy never died in the earthquake. Maybe Malcolm got him to a Lazarus Pit in time. *shrugs* I really don't care who it is as long as, to borrow a good friend's mantra, I'm entertained. I've been bored by a good chunk of last 2 1/2 seasons of bad guys. I just want this one to be good at being bad.

Edited September 15, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[Guest]

Yeah, technically, they could do what they did with Cupid. Her obsession with him began with Oliver saving her during the end of s2 when Slade's army was wreaking havoc in the city but we never actually saw her in those s2 episodes. It was a flashback. So Prometheus could rise because of something that happened in s1 and we just never saw the character.

I think a callback to someone we actually saw in one of the s1 episodes would be better but who knows?

[Belinea]

Quote

a slew of new (and painfully inexperienced) vigilantes

 So nothing new there or did these kids just not take the right sports class?

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I'll be in the minority: this doesn't really bother me, because Malcolm is gross and should be dead and is totally terrible, but he wasn't wrong. In broader context of that quote (SA talking about S1 Oliver being willing to kill, and Oliver of S2 and after not being willing to kill and now being somewhere in the middle), it makes sense. Oliver's no-kill rule was stupid, and probably got him into more trouble than it helped. It's okay to kill some of these nasties, and I think it would be really good for Oliver to acknowledge that - regardless of who put the thought in his mind. It's especially okay to kill Malcolm, but...LOL @ hoping that will ever happen.

What bothers me I think is that even if Oliver decides that he needs to abandon his no kill rule, which honestly was only in place cause he needed it in order to feel ok about doing what he was doing, why credit Malcolm when oodles of others around you have also been saying it?  Both Sara and Felicity in season two pulled the "do whatever it takes" card at times.  Why does Oliver have to elevate Malcolm rather than credit people he actually trusts with having been right?  That's what bothers me. 

I know it's for plot purposes but it feels like a reflection on his really messed up mindset, that he's still listening and taking advice from Malcolm while ignoring what the people who have his back have been saying. 

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I know it's for plot purposes but it feels like a reflection on his really messed up mindset, that he's still listening and taking advice from Malcolm while ignoring what the people who have his back have been saying. 

It's tough to tell given that it's one line completely out of context. I'm sure it'll be stupid and plotty, but I can't get upset about him not mentioning Felicity and Sara when I don't know why he's talking about Malcolm. 

[EmeraldArcher]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

It's tough to tell given that it's one line completely out of context.  

I think SA provided the context when he described it in the interview.  At least enough context for me to feel my enthusiasm for S5 drop even further.

[apinknightmare]

47 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I think SA provided the context when he described it in the interview.  

Yeah, I didn't get any context regarding the conversation with Thea from the one line he quoted about Malcolm. 

I think there's a difference between Oliver saying "Malcolm says it's okay to kill people, so I'm going to kill people again" and "Malcolm was right - I shouldn't be out there if I'm not willing to do whatever it takes." It is a little frustrating that anything Malcolm said is given any weight, but at least this is legit advice and not some retconned BS making him out to be better or different than he is. Maybe it's just me, but if Oliver's noodling over killing people again and struggling with it (and even if he isn't struggling with it), I'd rather he not mention Felicity and any encouragement she may have given him to do whatever it takes when he's getting back into the murder business. There are a lot of things I'd like him to acknowledge about her, but that ain't one of them. 

Since I'm not sure of the context of this convo with Thea, I'll also be glad if Oliver's contemplating killing for the greater good on his own, instead of having someone hold his hand and tell him it's okay to kill someone to make sure people are safe. Since this is all nonsensical plotty plot, I'll take baby steps where I can get them.

Bonus possibility that I will cling to until I can't cling to it anymore is the thought of Oliver saying those words back to Malcolm (again, because didn't he say that when he jabbed himself through the chest to "kill" Malcolm the first time?) as he fatally stabs him in the neck. For good this time.

Edited September 15, 2016 by apinknightmare

[EmeraldArcher]

23 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Bonus possibility that I will cling to until I can't cling to it anymore is the thought of Oliver saying those words back to Malcolm (again, because didn't he say that when he jabbed himself through the chest to "kill" Malcolm the first time?) as he fatally stabs him in the neck. For good this time.

I'm clinging to that hope as well!  

About context--I was specifically referring to this part of what he said:

Quote

The Oliver of season one was at one end and then the Oliver beyond season two was at the other. It was very black and white: “I am willing to use lethal force” and, then, “I am not.” Obviously it doesn’t just come down to that, but at the end of season four we found a shade of grey. Oliver is very much in that spot still. He says to Thea in the premiere that he has to admit Malcolm Merlyn is right: If he is not willing to do whatever is necessary, then he should not be out there at all. I think that makes a more interesting character, because it’s more dynamic. There are more colors to it.”

I think SA is addressing part of how the show and Oliver will justify his reversion to killing when necessary (as if he hasn't killed since his vow not to). The show sees it as a way to enrich his characterization, and OQ sees the advice in terms of his mission.

I agree that I wouldn't want this to be attributable to Felicity, Diggle, or any of the heroes; I'd much prefer if Oliver credited his own introspection and lessons learned that ever acknowledging MM as being right, especially about the need for lethal force. It isn't the lethal force itself that I mind; it's Malcolm's influence and continued presence in Oliver's life as anything but his arch nemesis.