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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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Chaser

Chaser

(edited)

I just had a picture of Olicity married. Oliver is Mayor. Thea runs the Company. Felicity stays at home with the kids. 

No. I don't wike it. 

*Not that there is anything wrong with a woman choosing to be a stay at home mom, I just can't picture Felicity making that choice. 

Edited by Chaser
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way2interested

way2interested

I didn't get a CEO vibe for Thea really from that. If anything, to me, it pushed more of the idea that Thea would become the mayor at some point, leaving Oliver to become homemaker/philanthropist/public speaker/vigilante while Felicity runs the company since she's the only one who actually seemed to like it. 

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wonderwall

wonderwall

My dream:

  • Thea takes over as mayor (even though she's what, 22? Although I feel like she's wise enough to avoid the whole ice-town debacle
  • Felicity becomes the CEO and founder of Smoak Tech or Queen Inc - a security company 
  • Oliver becomes the founder of Queen Inc but mostly stays at home with the kids
  • Diggle is head of operations at said security company because he pretty much has the whole bodyguard thing down

:)

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statsgirl

statsgirl

I think the reference to learning from Moira is a way to justify Thea being super competent at her job as the mayor's chief of staff.  She's still only 20, never went to college or took business courses and the only job's she's ever held is running Verdant for a couple of years.  Hopefully this isn't The Young and the Restless (where a character had a PhD at 22 and ran cosmetics company) and running QC much less being the mayor is years away.

10 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I did prefer the more realistic and grounded feel but I was okay with Arrow adding superpowers as long as it was done well. The mirakuru stuff in season  2 was kind  of superpowers and I thought it was handled pretty well and I didn't have a problem with the LP as long as they didn't overuse it.Metahumans showing up on arrow isn't my favorite but its happened just a few times so I was fine with that too. I think magic being added is what I really didn't like.DD's powers and the whole nuke the world thing felt way too big for arrow.

I liked Oliver having to figure out how to beat the ocasional metahuman or how to depower Slade because he had to come up with ways to do that while just using the skills he already had and the help of his team.With DD the whole magic tattoo and the power of positive thinking creating light magic to beat DD's dark magic was just dumb and boring imo. So think it's a matter of finding the type of superpower stuff that still at least kind of fits a show where a guy fights with a bow and arrow. 

The change from the earlier seasons that bothers me the most tho is the number of superheroes they added to the point that it now feels like anyone can easily become one if they want to.It really cheapens what they set up as what it takes to be a masked hero in earlier seasons and what Oliver went though to become one.Also it's pretty pointless since they waste all this time on half-assed training and development for the new masks only to eventually write them out,kill them off or send them to a different show which I'm guessing will happen with some of the newbies in season 5.

I agree with all of this.  Season 1 (with Evil Malcolm) and 2 (Slade and mirakuru) were both well done and thus acceptable because they were so well written.  The writing went out the window in season 3 when the EPs got so excited about having Ra's al Ghul on the show, they forgot how to write a decent character or a storyline I could care about.  Hiring a poor actor didn't help, nor did the mess they made trying to keep John Barrowman on the show.  Neal McDonogh was a better actor but the plotting around magic was so bad.

And yeah, all the time spent to create new masks in season 3 and 4 really took the shine off the characters (Oliver, Sara, Diggle, Roy) who had paid ttheir dues slapping water and worked their way into their hero personae.

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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

I can't see Thea as mayor or CEO to be honest. She is very young, didn't go to college, has no experience and I don't even remember her being interested in the business world or her family company at all. Also she has matured but she still makes rash decisions..she definitely doesn't seem close to who Moira was to me yet. I could see her working at the mayor office and having an important role but IMO she needs to come a long way before being in charge..

I can see Oliver becoming a decent mayor in the near future and I think Felicity could start her own company..or Oliver could be a stay at home dad. That's something I think he would be great at.

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Guest

Guest

I know QC was originally a Queen family company and Thea might've ended up as CEO at some point for that reason anyway but I can't see it. At least not yet. She's not even remotely qualified, although tbh she's not qualified to be a Chief of Staff either. You don't learn these things just from watching your mother do them. LOL what? Sure, MG/WM or whoever said that. Okay. (I mean, she's even less qualified than Felicity at being CEO but I bet we won't see any complaints about that. Mmhmm.)

Anyway, I'd like Thea to do something that isn't linked to Oliver. So although I'm happy she's getting a storyline that doesn't involve Malcolm (YAY FINALLY), she's still gonna be with Oliver all the time and yawn. They do know siblings can have separate lives right?

Also I'd like Oliver to actually be good at being Mayor. It seems like whatever they have him do he's bad at it, aside from being GA. I'd like to see him succeed at something outside of that. 

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bijoux

bijoux

There may actually be a sliver of hope that Oliver might be allowed to become a half-way decent mayor. Based on the extremely limited evidence of SA in costume, so far it's all GA suit and business wear. In contrast, I feel Oliver spent a lot of his time in casual clothes last year. Then again, this is sort of calling back to his almost season long stint as CEO in S2 and we all know how that ended up. And I've only now realized that it's a replay of that, what with Oliver's daytime job suffering due to his vigilante activities. I hope there's a point to it, namely that he learns how to juggle the two, instead of seeing the same movie again.

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looptab

looptab

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

. You don't learn these things just from watching your mother do them. LOL what? Sure, MG/WM or whoever said that. Okay.

Haha, yeah, that made me go o.O. Sure, this os the show where people become superheroes just watching others, afterall, but come on. 

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Sunshine

Sunshine

The reason for all the new vigilantes is that the city is a mess on all fronts.  Oliver can't devote more time to being mayor if he is the only vigilante in town.  He has to learn to accept help.  I will be shocked if by the end of season 5 we are not seeing Oliver being effective as both Green Arrow and Mayor Queen.

I don't expect Thea as chief-of-staff to be anymore based in reality than lawyer Laurel was.  It will be whatever the plot needs it to be. She may just be a quick learner. Quentin might also be of assistance to her (at the beginning of S4 he was dealing with council members). I am curious now though if she will ever decide to become Speedy again.  I know she puts on the costume in 5.01 or 5.02 but if she becomes effective as chief-of-staff she may decide she is happier helping the city in that manner.  The upside being the city can still operate effectively when Oliver gets called away to be Green Arrow because Thea has things under control.  

It seems to me they are setting Oliver up to be a real leader under both personas thus completing his five year origin journey.  Anyone else's story will be secondary (and probably underdeveloped).       

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Guest

Guest

Flashpoint changes some things with Diggle and Lyla? BARRY YOU LITTLE SHIT. Haha. Dude better learn his damn lesson this season I swear.

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Guest

Guest

Yeah, this lazarus pit crap is tedious. We've been there, done that, a few times now. Why go to such lengths to destroy it only to bring it back again? Yawn. I hope DR was trolling or just didn't get the game.

 

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Maybe Lyla was killed by Boomerang in the first crossover.

TAKE THAT BACK. 

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lemotomato

lemotomato

(edited)

Willa answered a question about how her relationship with Merlyn will be like in season 5. She basically said that they're gong to drop the antagonism and work towards being more neutral. Given that, and how MM helped the team out in 423, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he "joins" the team in some capacity. Personally I'd prefer that to be the one truth rather than the LP not being destroyed.

But I really hope David just told 3 lies.

Edited by lemotomato
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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

They must feel very confident about these new changes and/or the audience's love for Barry is all I'm sayin'.

 

Quote

I'm going to assume DR didn't get the game, just like COH2. Because i refuse to accept that MM is on TA and LP exists after everything with 403 and 419

But we know that olicity isn't together at the start of season 5.  If MM isn't on the team (and how could he be, it's only Oliver and Felicity) that makes 3 lies, right?

5 hours ago, Angel12d said:

 You don't learn these things just from watching your mother do them. LOL what? Sure, MG/WM or whoever said that. Okay. (I mean, she's even less qualified than Felicity at being CEO but I bet we won't see any complaints about that. Mmhmm.)

I would argue that you can learn these things from watching someone else do them (that was the training to be a doctor even 200 years ago) but when did Thea ever watch Moira do anything?  By the time she was 17 and we met them, she was in full on rebelling mode.

I believe she could run Verdant with no training, but not be the mayor's chief of staff. 

But I'm not going to complain because she finally has a storyline that isn't about playing second fiddle to Malcolm.

Edited by statsgirl
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Chaser

Chaser

How can MM join TA if he is also apart of the League of Doom on LOT? He is also partially to blame for the death of Laurel and is to blame for the death of Sara. How does that work?

I don't know what 'Olicity at the start of S5' means. Did he say they were together or just that there would be Olicity?

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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Just now, statsgirl said:

But we know that olicity isn't together at the start of season 5.  If MM isn't on the team (and how could he be, it's only Oliver and Felicity) that makes 3 lies, right?

We know Olicity aren't together so that means the other 2 have to be the truths. This is why i believe DR didn't get the game. He struggled with it at COH2 as well.  So I'm hoping all 3 are lies because the alternative is that MM is on TA (which doesn't really fly given that he's part of the Legion of Doom) or that the LP still exists (which would totally negate 403 and 419)

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Chaser

Chaser

(edited)
2 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm going to need a 5k word essay from TPTB on how and why MM is still a relevant, necessary character on Arrow. And they can't mention anything about JB personally.

Seriously? Enough already. If they don't want Thea or Oliver to take him out, can Lance just shoot him?

It's gross.

Edited by Chaser
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Guest

Guest

You could argue that Olicity are together at the start of s5...as partners on the team. It doesn't have to mean romantically.

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

But the hate is the only thing that makes sense? Sure, let's find neutral ground with a murderer who killed over 500 people and then drugged and forced her to kill someone. The person who literally set in motion all the bad events that have happened to Oliver and the Queen family. Uh...okay.

See, I love JB but this is where the insistence on keeping him around becomes ridiculous and inorganic. 

Edited by Guest
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catrox14

catrox14

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

See, I love JB but this is where the insistence on keeping him around becomes ridiculous and inorganic. 

They just need to make him a full on love to hate villain. Stop messing around with it. He can win once or twice but having Thea be on any common ground with Malcolm short of using him for HER purposes is ridiculous.

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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I just don't understand how MM can be part of The Legion of Doom and Team Arrow or just not be a true Villain.  I don't get why/how Arrow continues to play both sides and act like he's grey while doing all those horrible things to Thea. 

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Guest

Guest

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They just need to make him a full on love to hate villain. Stop messing around with it. He can win once or twice but having Thea be on any common ground with Malcolm short of using him for HER purposes is ridiculous.

I still want Thea to stab him in the neck but if they made MM a proper villain again and Oliver and Thea stopped using the biological father crap as an excuse, I'd probably be okay with that. Right now though he's just a nuisance and makes everyone look bad for keeping him around.

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catrox14

catrox14

1 minute ago, TwistedandBored said:

I hate to say it but it makes me resent the real actors when their useless characters stick around for no reason at all. I just know it because writers/network like the actor. I try not to hate the actors but it happens. 

I would only resent the actor if he's driving the actual SL. Like I don't think JB is totally influencing how they write Malcolm. I think it's all on Guggenheim and Mericle to do this stupid 'grey' thing with Malcolm.

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TwistedandBored

TwistedandBored

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I would only resent the actor if he's driving the actual SL. Like I don't think JB is totally influencing how they write Malcolm. I think it's all on Guggenheim and Mericle to do this stupid 'grey' thing with Malcolm.

I do think JB has some influence. According to him, he is the one who said not make him Oliver's father. So, I do think he has some say in his storylines. I think last season JB disliked some of Malcolm choices and asked for change. This was the change he got. 

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catrox14

catrox14

40 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

I do think JB has some influence. According to him, he is the one who said not make him Oliver's father. So, I do think he has some say in his storylines. I think last season JB disliked some of Malcolm choices and asked for change. This was the change he got. 

I thought it was his husband that told the writers to not make Malcolm Oliver's father but rather Thea's? I mean heck we might need to blame Scott for all this.  Poor Scott!

I think JB plays Malcolm with nuance to reflect that Malcolm thinks Malcolm is grey, but the writers still write Malcolm doing irredeemable and awful things. He's a horrible, awful, manipulative asshole who still loves his daughter or what HE thinks is love. IMO, he's pretty straightforward.

I think Thea is the conflicted character. Her reactions IMO don't mean that I should see Malcolm as grey just because Thea sees him that way.  It's Thea's arc to figure out that Malcolm is as irredeemable as he has always been. JMHO.

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lemotomato

lemotomato

This isn't super spoilery, more like potentially spoiler-ish? I just chatted with Charlotte Ross and asked her if Donna is going to be on season 5. She said that she was asked to be on several episodes, but negotiations stalled, so she moved on to other projects (a movie and a documentary about shelter dogs). She added that they have re-started talks again, though.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

Dear Arrow EPs; 

No matter how much Charlotte Ross costs, get her for at least a few episodes. Felicity went through all the pain in last season which you said she would be lighter and you're making Curtis go through bad time to build him into Mr. Terrific, on top of Diggle's angst over his brother and Oliver's constant brooding and guilt.. If you're going to keep the show depressing and without hope, as you love to do, you need some fun and levity.

Sincerely,

statsgirl. 

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lemotomato

lemotomato

(edited)

I'm mostly relieved that it seems the show had plans for Felicity beyond the lair, at least where her family is concerned. Maybe in the second half of season 5, hopefully?

Edited by lemotomato
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Guest

Guest

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I'm mostly relieved that it seems the show had plans for Felicity beyond the lair, at least where her family is concerned. Maybe in the second half of season 5, hopefully?

Same. After s4 and SmoaknLance I'm a bit Mama Smoak'd out tbh but it did concern me that they were removing everything that Felicity had - no PT, no Donna...etc...So the fact that they wanted her back is a good sign. Hopefully she can come back in s5b for an episode or two. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

I think they're more interested in having The Calculator as Felicity's father (and Tom Amandes must cost a bundle) than Donna being around as her mother.  Look, it's Thea/Malcolm again but with a somewhat better father.

And if Quentin gets killed off, that's one less role for Donna to play.

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