Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Sunshine]

Honestly it could be about becoming a fan of either Oliver Queen or Green Arrow "unabashedly overnight" which could simply mean suddenly.  I will say I took it as the character and not the actress.  I don't think the character is supposed to be a fan of Oliver's.  I may have gotten the wrong impression about her character but I thought she was coming to expose him, especially after SA saying Oliver was a garbage mayor.  The only thing that makes it suspect to me is that it is the first November sweeps episode. That said, if Oliver or Green Arrow rescues her somehow and shows any kind of attraction that Felicity witnesses, it could shake Felicity up and lead to a realization on her part.  This could lead to a discussion which could re-start Olicity. I think they will rebuild at some point but that it will be slow.

Another thought, is 5.05 too early for the reporter to discover that Oliver Queen is the Green Arrow?  It could be an action scene and Green Arrow rescues her.  To get her to trust him, he reveals his true identity.  We know the reporter is recurring.  We don't know how many episodes that translates to.  She's tweeted about 5.03 (her first) and 5.05.  Since she's not from SC she could return home without ever exposing the truth.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Sunshine

[Guest]

I don't think CP's tweet means anything tbh. She's just tweeting about her work. No big deal. I'd guess that she has big scenes with GA/Oliver.

As for O/F, I don't think 505 will be good for them. I'm still confused how they could possibly be ambiguous until then if Felicity has a boyfriend, so I'm taking it to mean Felicity will tell Oliver he needs to move on and he does. 

Edited August 6, 2016 by Guest

[wonderwall]

29 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

#OliCity4eva

Traitor. 

:p

[Velocity23]

When i have more info i am gonna challenge you guys to eat some hats!

[apinknightmare]

Maybe in 5x05 Oliver admits he only has eyes for another City. 

[Sunshine]

Maybe Green Arrow rescues her and she becomes obsessed with trying to figure out who he is along with trying to figure out what Oliver Queen is up to that keeps him absent from the mayor's office.    

[thegirlsleuth]

I don't get any indication that Carly Pope is talking love scene in her tweet.  Could 5x05 be the episode when Flashpoint is undone and they come crashing back to reality?  I do wonder if that's why they deal with their relationship in that episode and not before.

It's my theory that they Flashpointed Supergirl, Arrow, and Flash so that they would have a "logical" reason who Supergirl might end up on Earth one.  It has nothing to do with Arrow, but again, Arrow is taking the hit.

[Guest]

I don't exactly blame people for thinking CP will be Oliver's (temporary) love interest. I've had the same thought myself tbh, especially as I think they've given Felicity a new boyfriend for a reason (and one that has nothing to do with Felicity herself). Saying that, I really don't think her tweet means much of anything. And until we get more spoilers or episode details, I don't think we can really assume anything either.

The only thing we do know is that Oliver is in a loving and committed relationship with his city. He's really got it bad. ;P

[kismet]

Since the writers have stolen heavily from the Batman Mythos. I fully expect them to steal from the Superman Mythos. My expectation is that Carly Pope's Reporter will be OQ's Lois Lane for a season.

[Thundercatmary]

Honestly off the top of my head I can't think of a time I disliked Felicity, now Oliver is a different story lol.

I tend to focus my frustrations, when I have them, on the writers.

So far my biggest issues have been BMD and Sara's death, most other things I can hand wave or ignore.

Now if they (Oliver and Felicity) get new love interests this season it may finally be to much for me but we'll see.

ETA: Total fail at trying to quote from a different thread. 

Edited August 7, 2016 by Thundercatmary

[kismet]

12 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

Honestly off the top of my head I can't think of a time I disliked Felicity, now Oliver is a different story lol.

I tend to focus my frustrations, when I have them, on the writers.

So far my biggest issues have been BMD and Sara's death, most other things I can hand wave or ignore.

Now if they (Oliver and Felicity) get new love interests this season it may finally be to much for me but we'll see.

ETA: Total fail at trying to quote from a different thread. 

I can think of many, but this is not the place to discuss it. Nor does it really matter, since I'm not trying to sway or change anyone's opinion**. I just think it's obvious now that none of the characters are as bulletproof like MG thought. 

** - also this place is really FS friendly, so there is no point.

[dtissagirl]

The last thing I want from a TV show is writers who write characters towards likeability. Guggie thinking Felicity was impervious has always bugged me because it told me he WAS thinking like that, and that's exceedingly sexist -- because it breeds this idea that it's unacceptable if a likeable female character does something unlikable.

Because this is 300 billion times more perverse for female characters. Because we live in a problematic patriarchal society in which being "likable" is actually demanded of women 24/7 [nobody tells strange men on the streets to "smile"], and then when a fictional woman does something that the audience doesn't like, the response is vicious because of sexism/internalized sexism.

And hi, especially in this show that already had a ginormous problem in likeability with Laurel, that did turn vicious. [And hey, I still believe they took the best possible route with Laurel, but I don't discount the problematics in it.] They went about intentionally writing a heart of gold ~pure of spirit empathetic sympathetic character, that the audience was gonna commiserate with, and look what happened. Point is -- the audience "liking" a character, especially a female character, shouldn't be put into text -- it should be a consequence of consistent character development. So that when a woman does something the audience won't "like", they can at least understand the character POV. Which is something Arrow spectacularly fails at with Felicity.

Edited August 7, 2016 by dtissagirl

[DeadZeus]

I think i'm the only one that thinks it's stupid Oliver can throw darts with pinpoint accuracy into someones thumb (season 1) but he never learned to throw darts on the island and i doubt he will learn it in Russia.

So how? For me this is a gaping hole in believing Olivers abilities. Also, he hasn't trained with a bow since  Season 2 island, probably won't use a bow with the bratva but he still manages to be a perfect archer in S1?

Big gaps for me.

[TrueMyth]

I thought he was using his bow when he was doing the proto-vigilante thing between season 3 and 4 flashbacks.  He also somehow used his bow and arrows when torturing for ARGUS in season 3, though those skills against a stationary target from point-blank range would be very different from the shots he was making in season 1.  I could see the Bratva teaching him some knife skills, particularly throwing knives, which are close enough to darts for me.

But I've had to make my peace with the flashback continuity ever I asked MG about Oliver's Chinese proficiency in season one not being addressed when he was living in Hong Kong, and he basically said "What Chinese proficiency?" 

[statsgirl]

I took Carly Pope's tweet to be about how great it is to be on that set, which a number of other new people have said.

In terms of Laurel, I think if they had been willing to give her a dark side, rather than a "isn't it awesome how great she is" when she did something really stupid or dislikable (like MG's 'isn't great how dedicated to the poor she is' when she went into the CNRI building after 3 people had told her to get out of the Glades), she might have had more people like her.  In a Moira-way rather than an Isabel-way, although Susanna Thompson is a more complex actress.

Likability is usually a no-win effort for women fictional or real.  John Wesley Shipp (Barry's dad on The Flash) tweeted this really good article about Hillary Clinton and the double standard she is held to.

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks for the article it was a good read. We're not allowed to talk politics on Pretv but, I appreciated the link.

[tv echo]

Here's everything I've got on 505 so far (I've bolded quotes that I find significant) - I also feel that 505 is not going to be O&F reconciling...

Quote

S5, Episode 5:  TBA
-- On the status of Olicity, WM: "It's still a partnership. I mean, the way we left them in the bunker at the end of last season was somewhat ambiguous and we will kick them off in a similarly ambiguous state. That said, you will find out some more right around episode 5. And, you know, I think we're just going to let the characters kinda take us where they will." (SDCC, Jul. 23, 2016: Video of Arrow panel and Comicbook article, page 40 of Spoilers thread)
-- On Olicity, WM: "it’s still a partnership." Per WM, Oliver & Felicity will pick up on the same “ambiguous” note they left off on in the S4 finale. From there. WM: “You will find out some more right around Episode 5.” SA heralded “a really dynamic scene” that the former couple shares in the S5 opener, saying: “We speak to each other as equals, as team members... It’s pretty clear that Oliver loves Felicity, but I don’t know if they’re going to be together [romantically].”  EBR noted that the characters’ communication as teammates is “getting stronger.”  (SDCC, Jul. 23, 2016: TVLine article on Arrow panel, page 40 of Spoilers thread)
-- On Olicity this year, WM: "Good question. I think that... in the past, we've really - one of the reasons that relationship happened was we wanted to write to the chemistry that was obviously palpable on screen between Stephen and Emily, and also really honor who those characters are, and [unintelligible words] leave them ambiguous at the end of season 4.  And you'll see them stay ambiguous for awhile. You'll get some answers - Olicity fans will get some answers in episode 5. Beyond that, we're going to write to see - you know, we're going to write to them the same way. If they take us in the direction of reconciliation, great.  If not, we'll see what happens... You'll find out a lot more clarity in episode 5... on Olicity." (SDCC, Jul. 23, 2016: Video of Seat42F interview with WM, page 40 of Spoilers thread)
-- WM: "I know Olicity is a very sort of lightning rod of controversy on the internet. We left them in a very  ambiguous way at the end of season 4, and I think we'll get some clarity in the first five episodes, particularly in episode 5 of season 5. But, by the same token, we really - one of the reasons that relationship happened is we could really write into those characters and write into Steve and Emily, and we're going to do the same thing in season 5. We're going to kinda let the characters tell us where they want to go, and we'll see where we end up."  (SDCC, Jul. 23, 2016: Video of DC Comics News interview with WM, page 41 of Spoilers thread)
-- In response to question about how they will deal with the tension with fans who are staunchly Olicity and fans who are staunchly anti-Olicity, WM: "What's interesting about Olicity is, it's become this big - as everyone knows, this huge thing online and everyone has taken sides. But for us, it was really a byproduct of you cast someone like Emily Bett Rickards and there is obviously chemistry and you start to write to that. And it really felt in seasons 3 and 4 that, if you didn't go in that direction, it was going to do a disservice to the show and to the characters. And so we leaned into it, we went that way, we saw what it could do, and in season 5, we're going to do the same thing, which is, we left them ambiguous at the end of the season and, I will say, you will get some clarity in episode 5 of season 5. But even then, we're going to be - we are going to be exploring it in, actually in real time, to see where the characters are taking us, and where we feel like the best stories are going to be told." (SDCC, Jul. 23, 2016: Video of Showbiz Junkies interview with WM, page 41 of Spoilers thread)
-- jbuffyangel: "Marc [Guggenheim] said that Episode 5 is a HUGE Olicity episode. I asked him if Oliver was giving up and he said, 'No! No no non no!' ... So then I asked, 'But are we going to see a rebuild?' And Marc smiled and said, 'Yes.' And then I said, 'Oliver’s still working on becoming the man that Felicity wants and needs??' He smiled and said, 'Yes. Absolutely.' Then I said, 'But it’s going to be a process? A long journey?' And he smiled again and said YES." (SDCC, Jul. 23, 2016: jbuffyangel recap of conversation with MG, page 40 of Spoilers thread)
-- On Aug. 6, 2016, Carly Pope tweeted: "And just like that, care of the @ARROWwriters, she became an unabashed fanboy overnight... #505." (CPope tweet, page 1115 of Spoiler Discussion thread)

Edited August 7, 2016 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

I'm counting on the discussion about getting new masks in 5x01 to point me in the direction they're going.

If I were writing the show, I don't know if I would have them reconciling in 5x05 because then the show goes into the big cross-over extravaganza that's going to eat up the show's 100th episodes.  (So much for hoping for a wedding,)  But I'm at least  hoping for one of them to say "I tried to move on but I just can't" and leave the reconciliation for February sweeps.

[bijoux]

i was convinced that Oliver killing three guys would all be in the flashbacks. Now, I'm not so sure, even though I still lean that way. I do think he'll get kidnapped as mayor. Sadly, my prediction and hope for him to be rescued by Felicity and Dig has since gone up in smoke.

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

i was convinced that Oliver killing three guys would all be in the flashbacks. Now, I'm not so sure, even though I still lean that way. I do think he'll get kidnapped as mayor. Sadly, my prediction and hope for him to be rescued by Felicity and Dig has since gone up in smoke.

*smoak

[calliope1975]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I do think he'll get kidnapped as mayor. Sadly, my prediction and hope for him to be rescued by Felicity and Dig has since gone up in smoke.

Do you think we'll get the same beats as in S1E1? Kidnapping, neck snapping, maybe a nightmare? As long as they throw in an extended shirtless training montage, I'll hold back my complaints. 

[Guest]

Nah, he'll be rescued by the newbies who, up until that moment, he's dismissed and doesn't want on the team. But then he'll see first hand that they need his help/guidance but they could be good for the city in the long run. It's so predictable at this point.

Also I'm so bored of seeing this same response like 'It's mean and dark' or 'It's like s1 and s2' or 'We're back to basics!' Please get some new phrases that at least don't let everyone know who exactly you're catering to now. Thanks.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Guest

[bijoux]

15 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Do you think we'll get the same beats as in S1E1? Kidnapping, neck snapping, maybe a nightmare? As long as they throw in an extended shirtless training montage, I'll hold back my complaints. 

I honestly hope we skip the neck snapping even if the photo makes that a possibility. I'm not opposed to Oliver killing when necessary, but I do think he should be capable of dealing with lowlife thugs (which I expect the kidnappers in the season premiere to be, it would be different if we were in the mid-season or season finale) more subtly than that. What I actually predict is him not being able to make himself do that anymore, leaving him screwed because he can't expose his full abilities, yet he's sans the team to help him out. Cue newbie(s) to the rescue, reinforcing Felicity's argument that he needs them.

ETA: Thinking about it some more, maybe that's the reason Thea dons her suit in the premiere. Her and Felicity getting him out would be more than fine and it's certainly Thea's turn to come to Oliver's rescue.

Edited August 8, 2016 by bijoux

[way2interested]

The newbies aren't coming in until 502 though, so guessing it's either Oliver gets out on his own as a throwback to the pilot (with what I think will be a more life-or-death predicament that pushes him to kill the guys like SA mentioned once) or that Thea comes to help since WH does seem to be in a costume at least once per the promo. Either way, I agree that it would probably push Felicity and to a lesser extent Oliver to see that he needs more permanent help to lead into 502.

[Guest]

I forgot that the newbies don't arrive until 502. So then yeah, it'll be a throwback to Oliver saving himself, I guess. 

[statsgirl]

39 minutes ago, bijoux said:

i was convinced that Oliver killing three guys would all be in the flashbacks. Now, I'm not so sure, even though I still lean that way. I do think he'll get kidnapped as mayor. Sadly, my prediction and hope for him to be rescued by Felicity and Dig has since gone up in smoke.

His true love Starling/Star City will save him.

Me four on I don't see why he can't save himself. He could in the pilot and he's had four more years of experience since then, including Malcolm Meryln/Ra's al Ghul certified LoA training.  If anything, three guys kidnapping him should be a piece of cake at this point.

Unless he's kidnapped as Oliver Queen and doesn't want to break role of Ordinary Helpless Guy so Thea has to take the red leather out of storage to get him. And then she tells him in no uncertain terms that she's not joining on again because it's not good for her  (yay for Strong Mature Thea)  followed by Felicity giving him a reality check and telling him they can't keep doing it with just him in the field.

Edited August 8, 2016 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Unless he's kidnapped as Oliver Queen and doesn't want to break role of Ordinary Helpless Guy so Thea has to take the red leather out of storage to get him. And then she tells him in no uncertain terms that she's not joining on again because it's not good for her  (yay for Strong Mature Thea)  followed by Felicity giving him a reality check and telling him they can't keep doing it with just him in the field.

It's definitely as Oliver since he's in his day suit, not the leather one. I just honestly don't want him to resolve this the same way as in the pilot. It was cool and surprising like whoa then, but talk about regression if that happened. On the plus side, it would make the kid debacle pale in comparison. Yay?

[tv echo]

After reading the latest James Bamford instagram post in the Spoilers thread, I'm really hoping that Bamford doesn't turn out to be the Zack Snyder of the DCTV universe.

[DeadZeus]

Didn't SA say that OQ will kill half a dozen? Meaning 6, not 3?

I would like to see OQ kick some ass as OQ if he gets kidnapped, my favorite action scene of S4 was when they were stealing the CPU thing at palmer tech.

Some OQ/GA against lowly guards/thugs is always fun to watch imo/

Edited August 9, 2016 by DeadZeus

[tv echo]

SA sometimes uses the word "pilot" to mean "premiere"...

Quote

-- SA: "[Oliver] says to Thea in the pilot, he has to admit that Malcolm was right, that if he's not willing to do whatever is necessary, then he shouldn't even be out there at all. And as a result, we have a shot in the pilot where I kill three people in one shot... It's like, it is what it is. 'Are you in my way? Are you threatening my life? You gots to go.' ... That's a more interesting character because there's more dynamic. There are more colors to it." (SDCC, Jul. 23, 2016: Nerdophiles video of press roundtable interview with SA, page 40 of Spoilers thread)

[apinknightmare]

27 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

Didn't SA say that OQ will kill half a dozen? Meaning 6, not 3?

The only time he's mentioned Oliver killing half a dozen people was during a "two truths and a lie" question where he mentioned that along with two other things (Moira being alive and one other thing that I can't remember), so we don't know if that actually happens. 

[Guest]

He has to admit that Malcolm was right...? UGH. 

I've actually never had a problem with Oliver killing people (I think he went a bit OTT in s1, though that was intentional) because sometimes the bad guys need to be put down permanently. And I imagine the 3 people he kills in 501 are because he has no back-up like usual and he's all alone and he needs to save himself. I get it. 

But any instance where they say Malcolm was right makes me ragey. Haha.

[catrox14]

Oh, helll, no.  Why would Oliver have to admit Malcolm was right? That's bs. Unacceptable.

[apinknightmare]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. And if admitting that Malcolm has a point means putting an end to going to extraordinary measures to not kill terrible people (including Malcom-let me dream!) then I'm all for it. 

[Belinea]

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

they say Malcolm was right makes me ragey

Because depending on the day MM is sometimes a misunderstood hero and father figure... 

[tv echo]

Also this - so apparently Oliver kills 3 and/or 6 people in 501 (since I doubt Moira's alive)...

Quote

-- On being asked for two truths and one lie for S5, SA: "Oliver kills half a dozen people in the pilot episode of the season. Um, Oliver and F - ... dammit... Um, Flashpoint affects Diggle. And, um, Moira's alive." (Nerd HQ, Jul. 24, 2016: Video of SA's second Nerd HQ conversation, page 453 of Social Media thread)

Edited August 9, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

Quote

he has to admit that Malcolm was right, that if he's not willing to do whatever is necessary, then he shouldn't even be out there at all. 

I swear I can't with these people.  I'm right there with you with regard to the No Kill Rule, that's too extreme, but I honestly don't understand the direction they are taking when it comes to Oliver and heroism. Or anything else, actually.

[Chaser]

I think they are so heavy handed with some of Oliver's growth that choices that could have been understandable become blatant regression.

[bijoux]

Here we go. I think it's a scene from the sizzle reel.mpretty sure that's the same blazer on Felicity.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BI5qeCEha3T/

[dtissagirl]

...I just realized BamBam has me blocked on Instagram. I have never followed him on any social media, or talked to him, or even liked a single picture he posted? I AM WEIRDED OUT.

[Chaser]

You probably interacted with someone he blocked. Blocked by association is a real thing.

[dtissagirl]

Super weird. I don't do anything fannish on Instagram.

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

Super weird. I don't do anything fannish on Instagram.

He knows how you feel about him. 

[dtissagirl]

13 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

He knows how you feel about him. 

THAT'S EVEN WORSE, a sentient bro.

[tv echo]

I'm surprised we haven't got the title page for 504 yet.  Are they shooting out of order because of the big crossover?

Edited August 10, 2016 by tv echo

[way2interested]

23 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I'm surprised we haven't got the title page for 504 yet.  Are they shooting out of order because of the big crossover?

None of the shows would even be close to their 8th episodes at this point though, so I'm not sure.

[Morrigan2575]

MG just probably forgot to sent it out what with the TCAs tomorrow 

[lemotomato]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

I'm surprised we haven't got the title page for 504 yet.  Are they shooting out of order because of the big crossover?

According to a video SA just posted to Instagram, they're filming episode 96, aka 5x04

Edited August 10, 2016 by lemotomato

[tv echo]

Why is this being retweeted by the Arrow production office? (posting here because I guess it's spoilery)...

[Belinea]

A 'significant' (whatever that means...regular probably) character is coming out on one of the shows, who do guys think it will be?  Or shouldn't Oliver and Barry both come out and form the greatest OTP ever, enraging fanboys everywhere and making it the ultimate crossover. They can be on each other's shows all the time. 

I think it won't be Diggle, Oliver and Lance. Curtis is already a gay character. The girls, I don't know. 

Does the Flash have a gay character? LoT has Sara.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Belinea