Spoiler Discussion Thread

[statsgirl]

I was hoping so much that with Barrowman's three show contract, Malcolm Merlyn would be hanging out with his evil buddies on the other shows and leave Arrow alone. Speaking of which, didn't Oliver kill Damian Darhk last season?  How is DD going to come back?  (And do you have to have your initials the same for first and last names to join the club?)

I'm pretty sure that Tommy won't be coming back.  Not only is Colin Donnell on another show, he's become pretty much the romantic lead of it. Plus they're giving his wife (Patty Murin) a storyline this season. Why would he come back to Arrow after that?

10 hours ago, looptab said:

The problem I have with Oliver recognizing the truth of Malcolm's 'advice' is that it's the eightysixth time he has learnt this. But as we know, it's an issue Arrow has with every lesson Oliver has to learn. He was willing to do 'whatever, whatever it takes' in 309 already. He killed Ra's al Guhl with no second thoughts - and he didn't wonder if it was the right thing to do before he did. 

If there is one consistency on this show, it's that Oliver needs to learn his lessons over and over. And over. And over.

Addressing the quote below (because for some reason I can't type below it)

For me, "doing what you have to do including killing people" is the line of the villain not the hero.  Malcolm thought that he had to destroy The Glades in order to build it up again without the bad stuff, DD carried it one better and thought he had to destroy the world to make room for a better one.  Ra's had the legacy of destroying the city of the new Ra's because that's what it takes to make him loyal only to the League, and even Slade thought he had to do what it takes by killing people Oliver loved in order to get his revenge.

It's the moderation that makes the hero, not the willingness to do "whatever (you think) it takes".

44 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think there's a difference between Oliver saying "Malcolm says it's okay to kill people, so I'm going to kill people again" and "Malcolm was right - I shouldn't be out there if I'm not willing to do whatever it takes." It is a little frustrating that anything Malcolm said is given any weight, but at least this is legit advice and not some retconned BS making him out to be better or different than he is.

Edited September 15, 2016 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

I don't think Barrowman has filmed much of Arrow so far. Is Malcolm even in the premiere? I've been sort of assuming he is, but we don't know, do we?

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

How is DD going to come back?

I think the LOT characters will go back in time to when he was alive. OR -- DD's gonna be hanging out with a time traveler [Reverse Flash], so maybe past DD hitches a time-hike with Reverse Flash and meet the LOT characters in the future? Funsies!

[apinknightmare]

25 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I think SA is addressing part of how the show and Oliver will justify his reversion to killing when necessary (as if he hasn't killed since his vow not to). The show sees it as a way to enrich his characterization, and OQ sees the advice in terms of his mission.

My comment about not having context for the conversation was in response to someone who wondered why Oliver was listening to Malcolm and ignoring people who had always had his back (although the answer is likely because this show loves Malcom to its own detriment). That's also why I made the comment about not wanting him to attribute anything about getting back into killing to Felicity or anyone else on Team Arrow. 

Personally, I don't mind Oliver's introspection being triggered by something that Malcolm said that wasn't crazypants. And for all we know, Oliver brings up Felicity and Sara telling him to do whatever it takes at some point in the convo, IDK  

[wonderwall]

I do remember at HVFF SJ he said that he missed working with John so IDK it's possible he hasn't been on the show yet...

[statsgirl]

Oliver should bring up Felicity and Sara but this show has selective amnesia.  Laurel is going to say exactly the same thing Diggle, Felicity and others have said about Oliver needing a team but you know Laurel is going to get the credit for when he does look for newbies.

I think at SDCC, Barrowman said he hadn't filmed anything yet so it doesn't look like he's in the premier. And I haven't seen anyone report that he's been on set..

[apinknightmare]

31 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It's the moderation that makes the hero, not the willingness to do "whatever (you think) it takes".

But whatever it takes isn't going to be the same thing in every situation. Oliver is already willing to find a non-violent solution to a problem. Per the show, he's having difficulty making himself kill for the greater good. So, finding the balance - knowing what the situation calls for and acting on that, isn't that the moderation? Isn't that doing whatever it takes?

Maybe I'm not following your point? 

[Sunshine]

I think JB said we wouldn't see him on Arrow until after the holidays. Not sure if it was at HVFF SJ or another con. I know Mericle said in one of her many SDCC videos that Arrow needed him for the end of the season. She wasn't sure when he was being used in the other shows.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I agree that I wouldn't want this to be attributable to Felicity, Diggle, or any of the heroes; I'd much prefer if Oliver credited his own introspection and lessons learned that ever acknowledging MM as being right, especially about the need for lethal force. It isn't the lethal force itself that I mind; it's Malcolm's influence and continued presence in Oliver's life as anything but his arch nemesis.

I don't care if anyone gets the credit as long as Oliver stops treating Malcolm like some kind of mentor. 

[EmeraldArcher]

I would rather see Diggle advise Oliver on his no-kill stance, especially because Diggle has been a combat soldier and is pretty pragmatic, but also because he killed his own brother who really gave him no other choice. I'd like conversations that call back to Digg's assessment that Oliver "was no soldier" in S1--how has that changed since then?  Digg's perspective could really enrich the show's treatment of Oliver going back to lethal force when necessary. They could mine his complex guilt of killing a family member in juxtaposition of saving his family; they could make this so much more philosophical than "Malcolm was right." Coming from Diggle, it would be a conversation that applies to both of them and would be much deeper than "you should be willing to kill if you're going to be a real hero." Also, coming from Diggle, it would seem more sanctioned.

[apinknightmare]

I'm guessing Diggle will weigh in on this. I seriously doubt SA spoiled the whole story arc, and that it begins and ends with a "Malcolm is right" during a convo that happens in the premiere. Also a guess - a few other people on the team will probably weigh in on it too. 

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I'm guessing Diggle will weigh in on this. I seriously doubt SA spoiled the whole story arc, and that it begins and ends with a "Malcolm is right" during a convo that happens in the premiere. Also a guess - a few other people on the team will probably weigh in on it too. 

Don't they always? The show seems to love hammering home stuff like that..having several different people repeat the same advice.

[kismet]

I love Tommy & Colin!! Seriously wish we could have TM/CD back on the show, if only for a few visits like Lyla. But if they are going to make EvilTommy - I'd rather they just keep him dead. It works for the comics and fanfic, but Arrow has overplayed the back from the dead card too many times. So if they were to go to that well again, I'd rather it be for something good like Moira &/or Tommy back to be OQ & TQ's family. I don't want any evil family members from beyond the grave.

As for revengenda's kudos to the writers if they actually use one of the Restons to fulfill that role of someone from the past taking down Star City as a result of s1 OQ/Hood. It is logical and timely. Both the Hood & the Queens did contribute to the Reston's demise - so seeing Star City embracing the GA & the Queens might be a tipping point for the Restons, especially if combined with the potential of the Mother's death as someone previously mentioned.

As for the No-Kill rule, it was barely enforced and usually only mentioned for plot purposes. I don't mind OQ being forced to kill as a last resort to protect people. I also don't want him out in the field nonchalantly killing people for shits & giggles. So I think the show addressing that balance of needing to do whatever it takes, while also having a moral code is fine. I don't think it has anything to do with OQ not learning or needing to relearn a lesson. What they do is dangerous and the "line" of right/wrong sometimes moves.

[tv echo]

14 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I was hoping so much that with Barrowman's three show contract, Malcolm Merlyn would be hanging out with his evil buddies on the other shows and leave Arrow alone. Speaking of which, didn't Oliver kill Damian Darhk last season?  How is DD going to come back?  (And do you have to have your initials the same for first and last names to join the club?)

Snart aka Captain Cold ("CC") (Wentworth Miller) is also dead but he's going to be part of the Legion of Doom, along with Malcolm Merlyn ("MM"), Damien Darhk ("DD") and Reverse Flash ("RF" - spoiled the pattern). So I agree that these bad guys will be alive and fighting the JSA on LOT in a past time period.

Edited September 16, 2016 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

While the new promo needed more Diggle and Felicity I thought it was fun! I wonder how poorly the show is gonna balance all of this stuff though

[Guest]

Blink and you'll miss Diggle and Felicity but that's fine. It was a good promo. I'm still not sure about the newbies. I like Curtis and I liked his "They were bronze" line. Haha. But I'm reserving my judgment for the others.

[Carrie Ann]

I...am pinning most of my hopes on 5B at this point, and am just gonna hope I get through 5A with my interest in the show intact. I don't feel pessimistic, exactly, just realistic: I have never liked it on any of my shows when a new team, or even one new Scrappy Doo team member, shows up and we're supposed to be immediately charmed and engaged by them. That's just not how it works. If these guys (aside from Curtis) end up as not much more than background field assistants, then great! But in Season 5? I'm not interested in 3-4 new characters. I'm interested in developing the underdeveloped relationships between the characters I already care about, like T/F, Q/T, Q/D, T/D, and at this point, F/D. So...yeah, that promo did nothing for me and probably none of them will until maybe, hopefully, the midseason hiatus?

[Guest]

I mean, it does concern me that they're going out of their way to appease their demo while ignoring the problems the show had already - mainly that the team was overcrowded. I feel like adding to it is gonna be a bit of a nightmare, especially when both Diggle and Thea rejoin the team at some point. And I have concerns that Felicity and Diggle will be relegated to the background yet again (that happened in s2 and all I'm hearing is the show should go back to how great it was in s2, not sure why) so I'm not sold on what they're selling.  But this promo was better than the last one where I felt nothing.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Guest

[EmeraldArcher]

I liked some of the action sequences, but I could still see the air punch that's been ridiculed already.  I've only watched it once (so far), but did Oliver actually shoot an arrow?  I tire of him using his bow for pummeling and his arrows for transportation to the clouds. I'm not on Twitter, but some days I think about getting an account so I can tweet: NoArrowsNoArrow. He's an archer, dammit.

I'm also one who isn't thrilled about the newbies, but I wonder if they think that adding new people enriches Oliver's story because it gives him new people to react to and have relationships with. The problem with that is even if they're adding more people in the context of an Oliver-centric show, they're overlooking the fact that Oliver's relationships with the established characters have changed every season in pretty significant ways.  We've already seen GrumpyMentor!Oliver and Exasperated!Oliver and Unimpressed!Oliver; I want to see Growth!Oliver who reacts to relationships he's built, taken for granted, or ruined.

[doesntworkonwood]

Was it just me or did they keep that bad punch in? 

[dtissagirl]

In theory I really do love the idea of Oliver as someone whose ~destiny in actually to turn young'uns into superheroes. That's actually my favorite Oliver story of all time. #1 Oliver Queen headcanon right there: dude was born to mass-produce sidekicks.

But I'm aware this works WAY better in my head than in the actual show. In my head I can fill-in character development for the newbies, and relationship development for Oliver and Felicity and Dig and Lyla, and how they relate to the kids, and to each other in this new reality when they're surrounded by a bunch of kids.

On the show, because these are all things they kinda suck balls at writing, I'm expecting that crazy ass shit they do of having Felicity and Thea standing side by side without talking to each other for 15 episodes in a row to be amplified 30 times.

[Carrie Ann]

Yes--I liked the very, very brief glimpse we had of Oliver as mentor with Roy (until he gave him v bad relationship advice), and could potentially like more of that. But in practice--this is too many people at once, and aside from Curtis, these characters have no link to anyone else on the show that would make me care about them for any reason.

I think TPTB have some agenda here in introducing so many new costumes (probably some combo of setup for LoT/other spinoffs, merchandising tie-ins, reeling back in the comics faithful), but I don't care about any part of that. So I'm hoping that 5A really contains the bulk of that work, and once they feel they've accomplished those goals, maybe the show can go "back to basics" and just be Arrow again, like they keep saying? I mean, no part of that promo resembled S1 to me, but...okay. Anyway, I think I probably just woke up grumpy today, but I'm just not feeling this.

[Guest]

For me, going "back to basics" = great stunt scenes and a focus on OTA. So, in theory, I'd be very cool with that. But I think my definition is a thing of the past tbh.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Guest

[thegirlsleuth]

Oliver getting punched in a chair looks as silly as it did in the first go round, but I did like the promo.  Little Diggle and Felicity but the focus was on Oliver, not the newbies, so I'm good.  Of course it may just be that I'm thrilled that the locations look like they take place somewhere other than the warehouse filled with vaguely sinister shadows and shipping containers that the masks can jump down from while looking heroic.

[bijoux]

Why did no one tell Curtis to steer clear of that overpass? Nothing good happens there, Curtis! Be happy you were just mugged.

So, PT has become the mayor's office. There are worse things it could have been sacrificed for. And it doesn't take much to dress it back should they need it.

I like the song they used, the grid beneath the date of the show returning (not that I know what it is supposed to represent, probably nothing) and the slowmo of that shadow fight in the beginning. It works well for the promo. Also, there's Oliver parkouring. Praise.

[Chaser]

I couldn't watch the promo with sound but all I got was ACTION! ACTION! ACTION!

The lack of Diggle and Felicity doesn't concern me so much (at the moment). The promo was very Oliver and Action focused. We know it takes a bit to get Diggle back into the action and Felicity on comms maybe not be promo enough for them.

Which is ridiculous because Oliver and Felicity making out over eggs was successful marketing. 

[bijoux]

Well, the short scene they have in the promo DID immediately remind me of her checking him out at Dig's wedding. There is that.

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, wonderwall said:

While the new promo needed more Diggle and Felicity I thought it was fun! I wonder how poorly the show is gonna balance all of this stuff though

Yeah between hearing very little about any immediate storyline  and EBR having so much free time back when they were filming the early episodes, I'm getting the vibe they've drastically cut her and Dig's time.  Also the more I here Felicity complain to Oliver that he's been waiting for five months for everything to go back to normal, I'm expecting it to be as much about them as a couple as Thea and Dig rejoining the team.  Not looking forward to the slap down.  

[statsgirl]

Looking at it optimistically, maybe it's better that they introduce a bunch of newbies all at once?  I think this show goes off the rails most of all when it concentrates too much on one new character (Sara in 2B, Laurel in 3A) so maybe with three or four of them coming on, the focus will be on Oliver, not on another new mask.

On 2016-09-15 at 7:49 PM, apinknightmare said:

But whatever it takes isn't going to be the same thing in every situation. Oliver is already willing to find a non-violent solution to a problem. Per the show, he's having difficulty making himself kill for the greater good. So, finding the balance - knowing what the situation calls for and acting on that, isn't that the moderation? Isn't that doing whatever it takes?

It sounds from SA's comments that Oliver is going to go all gung ho on Malcolm's advice.  No one should ever take Malcolm's advice, not on how to win, not on family or love  and certainly not on what it takes to be a successful person.

I wish it were Diggle Oliver was getting advice from instead.

[Sunshine]

"We’re positioning her to do something in the second half of the year that is really, really key, and that isn’t about her relationship with Oliver or even necessarily her father or her mother. It’s really new territory for her, and we’ve very excited about it. Some big things are going to happen with Felicity.” - MG

Late to the party, but...

Felicity is setting up a superhero network/headquarters in S5B providing information, etc.  It would explain all the masks in  S5A.  She can send others out in groups when Oliver's mayoral duties require him to be elsewhere.  He can become an effective mayor and superhero with a little help from his friends.  This could be considered "really, really key" to Oliver becoming his best self.  As they keep stressing, this is Oliver's story. Ha! 

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

It sounds from SA's comments that Oliver is going to go all gung ho on Malcolm's advice.  No one should ever take Malcolm's advice, not on how to win, not on family or love  and certainly not on what it takes to be a successful person.

I wish it were Diggle Oliver was getting advice from instead.

It seems to me that Oliver is contemplating an observation that Malcolm made about him, not taking any advice. "Whatever it takes" is at Oliver's discretion, and I'm guessing he isn't going to go around killing everyone he goes up against like Malcolm would, but maybe I'm wrong. 

Do you know he's not going to get Diggle's opinion? This show seems pretty consistent in having Oliver confide in someone whatever belief system he's operating under during the season. For all we know he talks to Diggle about it and Diggle asks him why he's listening to Malcolm Merlyn. Or, maybe he agrees with the sentiment (which he should, given what we know about him), but I guess that won't go over well?

Edited September 17, 2016 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

This writer theorizes that Prometheus is Oliver's son from the future (William!)...

Fan Fridays: Is Prometheus the Son of Green Arrow?
Evan Valentine- 09/16/2016
http://comicbook.com/2016/09/16/fan-fridays-is-prometheus-the-son-of-green-arrow-/

Quote

Looking at Prometheus in the upcoming season of Arrow, you can see that he’s a tad different from his comic roots and isn’t as flashy. Garbed in a raggedy outfit, Prometheus looks closer to a dark version of Green Arrow himself rather than the grandiose super villain he originally debuted as. Needless to say, the idea of Prometheus being Oliver’s son from the future plays on the producers stating that this season, and the villain himself, are a reflection of the idea of “legacy” and how it can be twisted. Oliver’s son is currently alive and well, but still a young child, so it’s clear that the present version isn’t the dark archer, but time in the CW-verse this season is wonky at best.

While this writer theorizes that Prometheus is Tommy Merlyn...

Arrow: 10 Major Predictions For Season 5
James Hunt  16 SEP 2016
http://whatculture.com/tv/arrow-10-major-predictions-for-season-5?page=9

Quote

The biggest fan theory right now is that it's Tommy Merlyn, altered by Flashpoint and out for revenge. It's an interesting twist, though I'm not sure how it'd work once Flashpoint's reversed (unless he's resurrected in some other way, but the show has done a lot of that already). He's the most obvious contender, but Arrow has been through a lot of characters, and it seems very likely he'll be someone we know in some shape or form.

Edited September 17, 2016 by tv echo

[bijoux]

While I think there is next to zero chance of either of those being true, at least the son theory is new so A for effort? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But, yeah, that one is even less likely than Tommy.

[lemotomato]

The son theory ignores everything the EPs have said about Prometheus being a result of Oliver's actions in season 1. 

[Velocity23]

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

Didnt know where to put this but Arrow has a casting call out for a female recurring speaking role.

https://www.claimfame.com/casting-call/score-speaking-recurring-role-cws-arrow/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=ClaimFame_Extra&utm_campaign=40703-CW_Theme_MJ_09.17.2016_NGM

What if Felicity is working on an AI computer... Sort of like Gideon from Flash? 

[Chaser]

Is that what 'recurring speaking role' means? They are trying to find a voice?

[bijoux]

I thought it meant the character had lines, not that they were just a voice. Although that wouldn't be excluded.

[Velocity23]

What if the Flashpoint cause Felicity be the creator of Gideon. Let me dream.

[Guest]

It is weird they specified it as a 'speaking' role. Wouldn't a recurring role automatically mean it includes lines? Maybe it is just a voice. IDK. But then maybe they'd simply call it a voice role? 

I'm confusing myself. LOL.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Guest

[Velocity23]

[Velocity23]

[Lily-n11]

Everybody...hold on to yourself:

 

 

 

He was not directing LOT:

Edited September 17, 2016 by Lily-n11

[way2interested]

Berlanti's diversity plan is really working out for him.

Honestly, I'm more disappointed at the idea that as of 5a, 1/3 of the episodes would be directed by the same person (who, in addition, is not an outside person and was merely promoted from within). That's even a lack of intellectual diversity at this point, which is making Berlanti's vows even more disappointing.

Perhaps he's only second-unit director, since 508 hasn't really started production? 

Edited September 17, 2016 by way2interested

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

If he was just recently asked and responded that there was some good OTA stuff coming up soon, does that mean that there really isn't any good OTA stuff until around the 7th or 8th episode even though Diggle's back quickly?

7 minutes ago, Lily-n11 said:

Everybody...hold on to yourself:

 

 

 

He was not directing LOT:

Dammit!  I really wanted to be wrong.  :(

[Guest]

You're telling me shaky cam is directing the crossovers? They couldn't have a more experienced director instead? No...? 

Total white boys club. Not impressed.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Guest

[BkWurm1]

7 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

You're telling me shaky cam is directing the crossovers? They couldn't have gotten a more experienced director instead? No? 

Total white boys club. Not impressed.

The only reason I'm not totally side eyeing the choice is that I'm sure the time commitment on whoever directs the crossovers is going to go way above and beyond what a normal director would stand for without probably monetary incentives to make up for the crazed hours.  It also probably helps that Bambam is friendly with cast, crew and producers and even if I don't like his shaky cam, he does know the show and the characters pretty well. I would have still thought that they'd be able to find another regular director that has a similar level of familiarity but then I come back to what we know are going to be a torturous time table to turn it around.  The number of directors willing and able probably shrinks a lot. 

Given the importance of the crossovers, I at least have high hopes of heavy involvement from those with more experience.  And maybe he's been studying up on his technique since the last time?  Crosses fingers. 

[Belinea]

Well, hopefully the 100th episode won't be an action fest without any emotional beats. Because if you have to share your 100th episode with 3 other shows, the least they could do is focus a little on the characters and not only the action...

[BkWurm1]

I take comfort a tiny bit in Bamford being more comfortable directing the action bits.  Makes me think he will follow the actor's instincts when it comes to the more emotional beats rather than impose his vision.  I trust the actors we now have (well who knows about the newbies) to make the better choices. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

The only reason I'm not totally side eyeing the choice is that I'm sure the time commitment on whoever directs the crossovers is going to go way above and beyond what a normal director would stand for without probably monetary incentives to make up for the crazed hours.  It also probably helps that Bambam is friendly with cast, crew and producers and even if I don't like his shaky cam, he does know the show and the characters pretty well. I would have still thought that they'd be able to find another regular director that has a similar level of familiarity but then I come back to what we know are going to be a torturous time table to turn it around.  The number of directors willing and able probably shrinks a lot. 

Given the importance of the crossovers, I at least have high hopes of heavy involvement from those with more experience.  And maybe he's been studying up on his technique since the last time?  Crosses fingers. 

You might have a point about the logistics of it all but I don't agree with the choice. This is supposedly a four (?) show event where everyone (they hope) will be watching and they choose the most mediocre director with minimal experience? Hmmmm. *side eyes GB's white boys club*

Let's hope he's improved but I'll get my sick bag ready just in case.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Guest

[BkWurm1]

I do think that Berlanti and friends opinion of Bam's ability is colored by familiarity,  but for the sake of argument, maybe he brings something positive to the filming process that can't be seen.  Maybe his behind the camera time comes with something that offsets his middling results behind the camera.  I think his efforts, while not spectacular, were all passable so maybe his knowledge of the show and makes what he doesn't do less important in his direction.