Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Carrie Ann]

"In case she isn't available?" To me this is kind of minimizing the way Felicity presented her feelings, and IMO, the way Oliver perceived them. The situation here isn't that she happens to be dating someone else, like when she was with Ray in S3. It's that she told Oliver explicitly that she could never be with him, and she has not indicated otherwise so far. That's not unavailable, that's permanent. And I'm not saying that I'd be convinced by him (or her) being happy in a new relationship. I just think he might try. Because he "honestly believes [he] can't get back together with" Felicity because she "can't get over what he did." The same reasons you laid out for not faulting Felicity trying to move on, I wouldn't fault Oliver either, that was my only point.

I too would think less of both of their feelings and their relationship if either of them spent any real amount of time in a different, happy relationship. But just trying? Going on a few dates? I still don't want to see that, but I would understand it and it wouldn't make me jump ship. (I might let it all pile up on the ol' DVR though...)

Edited June 29, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[tangerine95]

I would be fine with it if they were just dating and broke up and not about to get married and if we actually saw Oliver try more than just saying things that are pretty hard to believe after you've just been lied to and in the worst possible circumstances. 

I would hate Felicity trying to move on as well.Because it's clear she still loves Oliver and she already tried getting past that by dating someone else and failed and that was before they were in an actual relationship and because it would be hard for me to buy that she would rather try to totally move on with someone else after being so in love with Oliver than give Oliver a chance to fix things. 

Basically I think for me at least they went too far in building up olicity to now play out trying get to move on with someone else for either of them.In seasons 2 and 3 before they were actually together I was fine with it but not after almost getting married and all that "for better or for worse", "we found ourselves in each other" stuff.

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said:

"In case she isn't available?" The situation here is not that Felicity happens to be dating someone else, like when she was with Ray in S3. It's that she told Oliver explicitly that she could never be with him. That's not unavailable, that's permanent. And I'm not suggesting that I'd be convinced by him being happy in a new relationship, or that he should just "go for the next best thing." I just think he might try. Because he "honestly believes [he] can't get back together with" Felicity because she "can't get over what he did." The same reasons you stated that you wouldn't fault Felicity trying to move on. I wouldn't fault Oliver either, that was my only point.

I too would think less of both of their feelings and their relationship if either of them spent any real amount of time in a different relationship. But just trying? Going on a few dates? I still don't want to see that, but I would understand it and it wouldn't make me jump ship. (I might let it all pile up on the ol' DVR though...)

Felicity not wanting him is Felicity being unavailable. It's Felicity not being an option, temporarily or not because we don't even know what Oliver is currently thinking. But if you truly love someone you don't just get over that and be happy with someone else shortly after. Not for me.

You asked if I would feel the same about Felicity and I answered. I said from the first post about it that I would be fine with dates, but being in a relationship with someone else after everything for me would ruin the idea of them together. Everyone can think as they like but there are things that would make me question rooting for them and I know this would be one of them and it's just a fictional couple, I think I'm allowed to quit liking them for any reason that is relevant to me.

[Chaser]

I just don't want an Oliver/Sara and Felicity/Ray situation. I don't want Oliver and Felicity to stop sharing screen time. Or talking. 

[Carrie Ann]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

You asked if I would feel the same about Felicity and I answered. I said from the first post about it that I would be fine with dates, but being in a relationship with someone else after everything for me would ruin the idea of them together. Everyone can think as they like but there are things that would make me question rooting for them and I know this would be one of them and it's just a fictional couple, I think I'm allowed to quit liking them for any reason that is relevant to me.

You are obviously allowed to quit liking any aspect of the show for any reason. Sorry if it came across like I was challenging that. I have seen a lot of this LI angst directed at Oliver and his feelings, and not as much directed at Felicity and hers (which I think is mostly just because people seem more inclined to believe that if one of them does have an LI this season, it would be him), and I was just curious if you would feel the same and why. I think we're on different pages re: Felicity v. Oliver trying to move on, but on the same page re: dates v. relationships.

[wonderwall]

I'm with @Carrie Ann & @Chaser...

While I don't see anything wrong with both of them trying to move on by going on a couple of dates with other people, that's when I know to drop the show's status to DVR level. I simply don't want to watch the show and wait week after week seeing them date other people even if they end up together again by the end of the season. I'd much rather binge watch so I don't have to agonize over it. I know what I want from the show, and IMO after seeing how amazing Oliver/Felicity can be, them trying to move on is not something I want to watch even though I totally understand the character motivation to do so. 

I mean, it's season 5 for god's sake! Let's stop with the "will they won't they" spiel! It only works for so long........... smh

Edited June 29, 2016 by wonderwall

[Thundercatmary]

Very interesting opinions re Oliver and Felicity.

It has made me think about how it's just Oliver and Felicity on team arrow right now correct? This part is interesting for me, Oliver fighting on his own will improve fights IMO. Also I could see some cute banter/dialogue between them, it's just them after all. I could see this laying some subtle reunion groundwork, I mean if your still willing to see your ex fiancé daily your either still in love with them, never loved them, or a masochist. :p

Also there's a lot of things that would make sense in real life re their relationship but that doesn't mean it's something I would want to see.

[dtissagirl]

I 100% loathe the idea of either of them trying to move on because I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH THAT IN ANY WAY. It's irrelevant if I think Oliver and/or Felicity should try to move on. I don't care. They're not real. They're here to entertain me. Dating other people = the opposite of that.

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I 100% loathe the idea of either of them trying to move on because I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH THAT IN ANY WAY. It's irrelevant if I think Oliver and/or Felicity should try to move on. I don't care. They're not real. They're here to entertain me. Dating other people = the opposite of that.

I totally just pictured you dangling them like marionettes while yelling "Dance, dance for me!"

Totally agree it's not entertaining if it happens. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I 100% loathe the idea of either of them trying to move on because I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH THAT IN ANY WAY. It's irrelevant if I think Oliver and/or Felicity should try to move on. I don't care. They're not real. They're here to entertain me. Dating other people = the opposite of that.

This. I think we can all find character motivations if we have to, whether we agree with it or not. But I have zero interest in watching either of them with other people, especially after everything that's happened between them. It was okay in s3 but not now.

[dtissagirl]

For me it's also that -- if they have either Oliver or Felicity moving on, then the hero's journey romantic arc they set out as one of the main pillars of the narrative of this show is over. They set out to tell a story in which Oliver would regain his humanity through the love of a woman. That woman is Felicity. If it's already happened, and now he or she are out for greener pastures, then something behind the scene happened for them to decide to abandon that premise, and so I'll abandon the story along with, because you break my audience contract and you're dead to me.

[calliope1975]

11 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I 100% loathe the idea of either of them trying to move on because I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH THAT IN ANY WAY. It's irrelevant if I think Oliver and/or Felicity should try to move on. I don't care. They're not real. They're here to entertain me. Dating other people = the opposite of that.

Are you in my brain? If Felicity was my real life friend, then sure, she's stated she's moved along, and I would respect that and Oliver's right to move on as well. But she's not real, and my real life friends have enough stupid drama in their romantic lives. I want to see some happy on my screen.

It also doesn't help me that while Felicity said it was over over, they then proceeded to act married for the most part. She told him she was wrong about him changing, she supported him every step of the way, she went on a magic shaman quest with him, she keeps a picture of them at her desk, and the hugging. So much hugging.

So, no, I don't want to see either of them move on. I want Oliver to admit he was a dumbass, and Felicity to take him back with the caveat that the next colossal dumbass move he makes like not mentioning a secret kid, they're for reals done. And then I don't want that to happen and for them to live happily ever after kicking criminal ass because I want nice things. 

[catrox14]

I don't want to see them date other people because I waited for 2 fucking seasons for my ship to sail and it was inorganically fucked over by a crappy storyline and lies that I don't believe the Oliver from s3 would have ever done.

I will reject anyone either of them dates because I'm a bitter Olicity fan

[AyChihuahua]

31 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

For me it's also that -- if they have either Oliver or Felicity moving on, then the hero's journey romantic arc they set out as one of the main pillars of the narrative of this show is over. They set out to tell a story in which Oliver would regain his humanity through the love of a woman. That woman is Felicity. If it's already happened, and now he or she are out for greener pastures, then something behind the scene happened for them to decide to abandon that premise, and so I'll abandon the story along with, because you break my audience contract and you're dead to me.

How would you feel about one or both just going on a few dates? No sex, at most a kiss, all of which is intended to make them realize they still want each other?

[Thundercatmary]

I have this head cannon of Felicity deciding to go on a date and just getting bored etc, in a funny way though no drama. Course she'll get a call from Oliver and have to go help with something Team Arrow related and Random Date Dude will never be heard from again lol.

[dtissagirl]

21 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

How would you feel about one or both just going on a few dates? No sex, at most a kiss, all of which is intended to make them realize they still want each other?

This is gonna sound callous, but: I don't give a fuck about either Oliver or Felicity's feelings here. If they were real, would they deserve the chance to find happiness apart? Sure. Do I want to watch them do that in a constructed narrative while I'm a passive viewer? LOLNO. But if they use temporary LIs as a plot device to get O/F back on track in their relationship, then I might be able to grit my teeth through the contrivances. This show has me at pro level at doing that. This will have a time limit because it's the kind of story arc that starts getting unwatchable if it drags. And there's also the chance that the people playing the potential LIs are terrible at it, or have awful terribad chemistry with SA and/or EBR, and so it'll just make me skip scenes like I did with Crazy Eyes in S3.

I posited a scenario a few weeks ago that was less than this, and imo much more palatable: some woman hits on Oliver and he freaks out, and that jumpstarts the O/F story arc of them getting back together. That's still my preference.

Edited June 30, 2016 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

Perfect, two good fixes. Felicity goes on a date with some dude and is just undramatically bored, and Oliver freaks out when the reporter hits on him and runs to find Felicity. Put those together and it could be pretty funny.

[dtissagirl]

Oh, yes, give me all the rom-com hijnks that are both funny and entertaining, and skip every single possible ~drama~ scenario in temporary LIs.

Tbh, in all of this, I'm still having doubts of Carly Pope being a temp LI because she's been playing older characters lately. She might be too old for Oliver because it's the CW.

Edited June 30, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Carrie Ann]

Carly Pope and SA are the same age, which means...yep, she's probably too old for The CW to consider her as a love interest.

My ideal scenario--if we have to even hint at other LIs, which again is not my preference--would be something like @dtissagirl's suggestion, where Felicity sees Oliver and someone else together (maybe the woman is flirting) or misconstrues information, and there never is an actual date, but it's enough to kickstart things, on both sides.

But yes, what you said about Oliver's hero journey vis a vis the love of a woman is right on. There is a story they've been telling for four seasons, and if they were to actually abandon it or go back on it, basically denying its importance, then there's nothing left of value in the show for me. Not just because Olicity is a huge factor in why I'm still watching at all, but because character development is really the only thing I watch TV for.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Arrow has made some really questionable story decisions so I'm not gonna put it past them to introduce LI's for either or both Oliver & Felicity. But when Oliver hooked up with Sara, the ratings tanked. Hooking up Ray with Felicity failed to get him a solo spinoff. No one even bothered to know the name of the poor woman's name in the Flashback. Arrow's record for LI's for O & F has been pretty dismal, and if I were one of the Arrow EPs I'd stay as far away from the idea as possible.

Which is why I think they're gonna give them LIs :P

I'm actually not worried about the love interests, per se. It's my worry that Oliver & Felicity will have less time together. Because honestly, they're why I watch. Olicity, OTA, those are really it for me. And with Emily saying she'll have more scenes with Curtis, I'm slightly concerned there'll be fewer scenes, less time for the characters I'm actually interested in to be together. I'm still pissed they pawned off Digg to Laurel last season (whatever, I still don't buy she was his freakin' "sister"). 

[looptab]

At the moment, I'm kinda resigned to other LIs - much as I hate that and have no desire of watching that - as long as it is a storyline related to them, in service of their story. But worst case scenario for me, and what I truly hope they stay away from and don't even think of doing, it's them just ignoring Olicity, have them act like it never happened, or let them - apparently - permanently move on, like on many CW shows (90210, Gossip Girl, TVD). That's the no-no for me.

[wonderwall]

3 minutes ago, looptab said:

At the moment, I'm kinda resigned to other LIs - much as I hate that and have no desire of watching that - as long as it is a storyline related to them, in service of their story. But worst case scenario for me, and what I truly hope they stay away from and don't even think of doing, it's them just ignoring Olicity, have them act like it never happened, or let them - apparently - permanently move on, like on many CW shows (90210, Gossip Girl, TVD). That's the no-no for me.

To be fair... Most other CW shows like 90210, GG, TVD have love interests for the sake of having love interests. Very rarely do we find a love interest on any of those shows that are a very large part of the characters' development... Usually what I find on those shows is that they just mix and match different characters just to try it out, nothing deeper than that unlike Oliver/Felicity who got together because they made each other better people, because they built a strong foundation of trust/partnership etc. 

[kismet]

The hard part is that if what had happened to O/F had happened when they were married - I don't think FS would have walked completely away from the relationship. There would have been a huge fight and a break, but they would have found a way to work it out or at least TRY. Perhaps counseling or something. It would not have been call the divorce attorneys pronto. But for plot purposes, that was not possible. So since they were engaged, I feel like it should be the similar that after the anger of the situation goes away - the couple tries to work it out. However, these writers have no idea how to write realistic couples.

I'm actually slightly perplexed by what they intend to do for O/F in s5, they went full throttle into the engagement knowing full well they planned on going full speed ahead with the BMD. SO they intentionally went nuclear on the relationship, which makes me wonder if they have intentions of bringing them back together in 5a or if we have to wait for 5b or even s6. I'm not worried because I know O/F is their bread & butter - I just don't know if I can wait it out or if I will develop an allergy by then to their absurd story telling.

ETA - Jamming out to "Against All Odds" by Phil Collins and I really feel like its my new OQ headspace song for the moment. I imagine him alone in the lair listening to some depressing soft rock with the lights off.

Edited June 30, 2016 by kismet

[looptab]

2 hours ago, wonderwall said:

To be fair... Most other CW shows like 90210, GG, TVD have love interests for the sake of having love interests. Very rarely do we find a love interest on any of those shows that are a very large part of the characters' development... Usually what I find on those shows is that they just mix and match different characters just to try it out, nothing deeper than that unlike Oliver/Felicity who got together because they made each other better people, because they built a strong foundation of trust/partnership etc. 

True. Arrow has a completely different narrative so I wouldn't think they'd go that route. Still, this thought has been nagging me for a while. I'm mostly thinking of Annie/Liam on 90210 - and how I loathed that, in a show that already had very little to love. That they are different kinds of shows at the root should mean we're safe from that, but, by the same token, there's the possibility that they lean on the similarities and take a page from those other shows. Especially if they want to backburn the relationship and focus on something else. I'm just putting it out there :)

Eta: It's also true that those shows have their characters at a very different point in life than Arrow - Arrow characters were adults from the start. But it's the way of handling relationships rather than a similarities of storylines - which of course there isn't - that worries me.

Edited June 30, 2016 by looptab

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Carrie Ann said:

 

My ideal scenario--if we have to even hint at other LIs, which again is not my preference--would be something like @dtissagirl's suggestion, where Felicity sees Oliver and someone else together (maybe the woman is flirting) or misconstrues information, and there never is an actual date, but it's enough to kickstart things, on both sides.

That sort of falls in line with my headcanon. Oliver spends time with an age appropriate woman and the media starts going, 'Is Mayor Queen moving on?' Since they are still friends and co-workers, Felicity goes to tell him that it's fine, she's okay with it. Even if saying it makes her want to throw up. And Oliver is just shocked and appalled. What is she even talking about?

[BkWurm1]

They may put Olicity on the backburner but they are sooooooooo not done with them.  I have zero doubts about that at least.

[Chaser]

I'm kind of perplexed about the approach to this season for Olicity. I'll want until SDCC to judge but if SA (and company) are going to downplay Olicity by playing stupid or pretending it isn't a thing to gear up for a Temp LI....Good Luck with the social media buzz. LOL

Edited June 30, 2016 by Chaser

[tangerine95]

Idk I think it is too soon to tell how they'll promote olicity or what they'll do to them in the first half of season 5 and that sdcc will be when we actually get a sense for that. We haven't gotten info on anything relevant tbh, we just heard about new characters and nothing about Felicity, Diggle or Thea yet so it's not that weird to me that we don't know anything about olicity either. 

I think only SA is being weird about promo tbh and i do think he's just trolling but that's not really well received now when people are already kinda down about how olicity was handled. I think he did the same thing in season 3 when Felicity was with Ray.EBR talked more positively about olicity imo and I saw a screenshot going around of a quote from MG after or around the finale i think where he said they're not done telling the olicity story and they love the characters or something like that so nothing that really tells me they're pushing them aside. 

If they ignore them at comic con, I'll be worried they won't get much focus or will be sidelined at the start of the season but right now i think they just haven't really started the promo. 

[bijoux]

6 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Idk I think it is too soon to tell how they'll promote olicity or what they'll do to them in the first half of season 5 and that sdcc will be when we actually get a sense for that. We haven't gotten info on anything relevant tbh, we just heard about new characters and nothing about Felicity, Diggle or Thea yet so it's not that weird to me that we don't know anything about olicity either. 

I was actually just thinking about Thea yesterday. We know next to nothing about everybody, but Oliver, Felicity and Dig were positioned in ways that gave them something to do, Thea was just plopped on that couch. But we are honestly get zilch about any of the regulars. Except for Oliver turning "mean". Which only makes sense considering that he was headed to Russia in the finale.

[tangerine95]

I just hope whatever Thea does has zero to do with Malcolm for once lol. I think her storyline will be making her way back to the mask and being speedy. I like the idea of her being a mentor to Artemis so I hope they go with that.

[tv echo]

I had this awful thought - what if Carly Pope's reporter discovers Oliver's secret son (scandal for the new mayor)?  And that leads to the return of Samantha and William?  I swear, if we get a news announcement that Anna Hopkins is returning to Arrow, I'm going to do Edvard Munch's The Scream...

I wonder if one of the new male characters will be a love interest for Thea - either Chase or Wild Dog.

Also, once again, Laura Hurley is like my sister from another mother...

Edited June 30, 2016 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

^^^^ Ugh.  No, please no. I never want to see those stupid characters again. 

[tangerine95]

Idk why and maybe it's being too optimistic but I don't think we'll be seeing them again or at least for a very long time and I feel like they wouldn't have sent them away like they did if they had any plans of bringing them back.I think the reporter will be trying to connect him to GA or maybe bratva and they'll focus on that. 

But yeah seeing those two again in a bigger role or watching insta dad Oliver is about as appealing as the idea of another LI for olicity lol.

[AyChihuahua]

If that lying hag and her moron child are back, I'm out. In fact, if they bring 'em back for good, I'm out permanently. I absolutely LOATHE that woman...not just for being a grotesque lying hag, but for being a grotesque lying hag that the show kept putting up on an incredibly counterfactual pedestal. This chick knowingly slept with her good friend's douchebag boyfriend, was so stupid as to not use a condom (HELLLOOOOOOO OLLIE STDs!), didn't take a morning after pill, took money from Moira to lie about having a miscarriage (I have been 100% consistent before she even came back that being a dumb douche does not mean you don't get to know you have a kid...literally millions of dumb douches have kids every year, and unless they're a danger, they have a moral/legal right to parent them), kept lying even when she had reason to know he'd cleaned up his act, acted all morally superior about both the sex and the lying (I STG she behaved as if she had been in another room and he sent his sperm to float on in to her vagina), demanded he lie to his actual fiancee, then acted all superior when her MORONIC PARENTING set the dumb kid up to get kidnapped, and she apparently waited like days even to contact him, then didn't call but took the extra time to take the train down? I mean WHAT THE HELL WITH THIS NASTY FOOL?!?

[bijoux]

25 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Idk why and maybe it's being too optimistic but I don't think we'll be seeing them again or at least for a very long time and I feel like they wouldn't have sent them away like they did if they had any plans of bringing them back.I think the reporter will be trying to connect him to GA or maybe bratva and they'll focus on that. 

This is an excellent idea. It didn't even come close to crossing my mind, but not I really love it. So it's unlikely to happen. But it would be a totally meaty story to get on the newly elected mayor and it wouldn't be repetitive.

[looptab]

I was thinking the reporter could also be sniffing around Oliver because they outed LL as BC. Who knows, she could  be looking into that - maybe Laurel's cases, or just the vigilantism - and just then become interested in Oliver's business. She could actually be a smart character that can do 2+2!

And that could also be what Stephen meant with the idea of BC being explored, if that's the reason for the reporter being in Star City.

Edited June 30, 2016 by looptab

[bijoux]

@looptab, I support this idea as well. It would be very good use of Laurel and delving into the consequences of vigilantism.

[looptab]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind that scenario.They did say that Laurel's death would propel the story forward, this could be a way of doing it.

[kismet]

@looptab & @bijoux, I only support this theory of the reporter using LL/BC as means for exploration into OQ's or GA's - IF it leads to him/TA not deciding to reveal his/their secret identity to the world. With that stupid statue and ridiculous speech at her grave, I'm dreading the thought that the show feels it is a good time to reveal GA's identity - which it is not. I hate when superhero shows reveal the secret identity to the masses, it always brings the show down. Reveals to loved ones, are powerful, emotional & necessary. Reveals to the masses often precludes a jumping the shark moment.

I liked the solution the show did with Roy revealing himself as the Arrow, I thought that was a smart & successful twist. It was a reveal without being a reveal. And with the corruption of SCPD & Iron Heights, if they want to bring Roy back - they could easily just cry error. He as actually never put on trials, so besides an arrest, Roy is still technically innocent. That being said, I prefer the idea of Roy on the run instead of coming back so soon after LL's death and trying to regain his life. It feels like it will just create problems for TA. He can visit, but I don't want him staying around if it means TA is exposed to the masses. Defeats the whole purpose of his sacrifice.

[kismet]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

I had this awful thought - what if Carly Pope's reporter discovers Oliver's secret son (scandal for the new mayor)?  And that leads to the return of Samantha and William?  I swear, if we get a news announcement that Anna Hopkins is returning to Arrow, I'm going to do Edvard Munch's The Scream...

I wonder if one of the new male characters will be a love interest for Thea - either Chase or Wild Dog.

Also, once again, Laura Hurley is like my sister from another mother...

Agree about Laura Hurley. Personally for me it might be more Kevin from Home Alone.

Confession time, I like the fact that OQ is a father. I actually would not have minded if his kid made guest appearance in future seasons - UNTIL they completely jacked up the BMD and now all I have is a bad taste in my mouth.

I did actually start a new fic the other day that had OQ needing to take custody of his kid after the mother died tragically in the Havenrock incident. As a fic, I'm intrigued by this concept - since OQ being a recently discovered father of a grown child was never an issue for me or FS. However, I dread if a similar scenario happened on the show because 1. we would be stuck with that kid actor all the time & 2. FS would probably get lambasted for indirectly killing BM. Kids in real life are amazing. Kids on TV are walking a tightrope with a small margin for success and large area for failure. Arrow has already failed OQ's kid & the audience in so many ways, it is merciful for him & us to just let him be far far away from the writers' keyboards & minds.

However, I dread what the writers would do with bringing the kid & BM back. There is no way they could handle it in a mature & non-cliche melodrama free way. So in that regard I want the writers to reject the idea that BMD needs to come back. That being said, I totally see this reporter revealing the BMD because let's face it OQ & the audience are not allowed to have nice things. I also see it as them thinking its their opportunity to fix what went wrong with the BMD in the first place. So I fully expect the kid to be revealed or at least the reveal leveraged by the reporter.

TBH, I don't really see it being that big of a scandal for OQ. He's already in office. He just found out about the kid a few months ago, so its not like he was negligent or abandoned the kid. It simply humanizes him. I just dread the story in the hands of these writers. And as much as I think this story has potential, I do not want to see the kid or the BM on the regular or even recurring.

[statsgirl]

21 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

And Felicity gave him his ring back and told him to keep it for good. And so far hasn't given him any indication that she ever wants to get back together with him. Is he supposed to be celibate for the rest of his life? Not ever see if he can try and move on and be happy? Like, I truly believe that Oliver would do whatever he had to do to get back with Felicity, but she gave him a pretty final answer there. 

I've known 3 soulmate/OTP relationships in real life.  In two of them, after it ended (12 years and 6 years) it never occurred to the surviving partner to date again. In the third, it's been 2 years since his wife's death and he tried dating again but it failed miserably. He still misses her too much. Frankly, I wouldn't want to date the guy myself because there's no way any other woman can match up.

We've been told that Oliver and Felicity are OTP and for me that means you don't move on after a few months of losing the love of your life.  Felicity tried it in s3 with Ray but that was before she had been with Oliver and even then it was pretty much a failure. So for Oliver to get into a relationship at this point with someone new would prove to me that he didn't really love Felicity that much after all.

I expect Oliver and Felicity to still b apart in 5x01 because why waste that storytelling on the summer hiatus but putting either of them with someone else, just NO.  They already did that with Felicity and Ray and the last thing Oliver needs is a new love interest especially since it was his actions that blew apart his relationship with Felicity.  Not to mention, I've never seen a show do the "moving on from the OTP" scenario well.  Usually those are the seasons I skip.

As much as I never want to see William and Samantha again, I hope the new reporter is sniffing around that story rather than around Oliver.

It's a good idea to have her investigating Oliver because of Laurel being the Black Canary but I'm very skeptical that they would do that to St. Laurel.

[AyChihuahua]

Quote

 I've known 3 soulmate/OTP relationships in real life.  In two of them, after it ended (12 years and 6 years) it never occurred to the surviving partner to date again. In the third, it's been 2 years since his wife's death and he tried dating again but it failed miserably. 

Felicity's not dead, though. She's right there with him, he probably sees her every day, and as far as he knows she does not want him. That's just totally different from one half of the couple dying.

Also, how old were those couples? I'm guessing if all three involve dead spouses, probably fairly old. Oliver's 31. He wants to have a family (idiot Baby Mama actions aside). That's totally different from a widow/widower in her/his 60s or whatever deciding not to date anymore.

To be clear, I'm with dtissagirl...I have emotionally disengaged from this show enough, and especially from Oliver, that I don't really care much what would be healthiest for him. I am at the point of just wanting to be entertained. This show does emotions like absolute shit. And I agree that watching either of them date someone else is not entertaining and I don't want to watch it, but thinking back on the many UNBELIEVABLY STUPID writing decisions these writers have made, I think a new LI for either or both is really quite likely. Not GOOD, just likely. I really and truly think Guggie in particular is a talentless hack, at least as a storyteller. He legit thought the baby mama crap was going to be loved, an idea which honestly, really and truly, FLOORS me. That shitfest was an obvious pustulent boil on the hairy ass of this show from conception alllllllll the way through every moment of execution. It was horrifically stupid, and very very very apparently, a grotesque abomination. But GUGGIE LOVED IT. 

So there we are.

Edited July 1, 2016 by AyChihuahua
the usual...baby mama drama rage

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Felicity's not dead, though. She's right there with him, he probably sees her every day, and as far as he knows she does not want him. That's just totally different from one half of the couple dying.

Also, how old were those couples? I'm guessing if all three involve dead spouses, probably fairly old. Oliver's 31. He wants to have a family (idiot Baby Mama actions aside). That's totally different from a widow/widower in her/his 60s or whatever deciding not to date anymore.

 

Maybe I'm the only one who needs a mourning period after a relationship with someone I truly loved, LOL. It's not a matter of wanting to have a family or not, of being young or not, the problem is you can't flip a switch and decide, since rationally you think you have no chance with the person you love, you are going to find another person and be happy with them. If that happens, great, but if it took so little to replace the person you were with then maybe it wasn't the big love you believed it was in the first place.

It's also not fair to be with someone if you are in love with someone else IMO. If Oliver would drop this hypothetical new person like a potato sack at a sign from Felicity she might want him back he shouldn't be with her in the first place. 

[AyChihuahua]

5 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Maybe I'm the only one who needs a mourning period after a relationship with someone I truly loved, LOL. It's not a matter of wanting to have a family or not, of being young or not, the problem is you can't flip a switch and decide, since rationally you think you have no chance with the person you love, you are going to find another person and be happy with them. If that happens, great, but if it took so little to replace the person you were with then maybe it wasn't the big love you believed it was in the first place.

It's also not fair to be with someone if you are in love with someone else IMO. If Oliver would drop this hypothetical new person like a potato sack at a sign from Felicity she might want him back he shouldn't be with her in the first place. 

You know, the rational flipping the switch thing is basically exactly what Felicity did in S3. She understood that she and Oliver weren't going to happen, so she decided to move on from him, to Ray.

Also, they'll have been apart for, what, 8-9 months? That's nearly as long as they were together. Why doesn't that count as a mourning period? Also, this is Guggie we're talking about. Whether it's in or out of character doesn't matter at all to him if it's plot plotty plot plot. (Plus Felicity dropped Ray like a potato sack. I was fine with that, but of course I hate him.)

I don't actually think we disagree...for me, if it happens, it's ANOTHER sign they're not this big love I thought they were. The first clue for me was all the lying. I don't really get you how can lie to someone's face, again and again, about something they have every right to know, if you're in love with that person. I just can't imagine it, and it wasn't even for like national security or something. 

Also, I don't necessarily think either of them are going to be in actual relationships w other people. I think there's a decent chance of a flirtation/a date or two. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

You know, the rational flipping the switch thing is basically exactly what Felicity did in S3. She understood that she and Oliver weren't going to happen, so she decided to move on from him, to Ray.

Also, they'll have been apart for, what, 8-9 months? That's nearly as long as they were together. Why doesn't that count as a mourning period? Also, this is Guggie we're talking about. Whether it's in or out of character doesn't matter at all to him if it's plot plotty plot plot. (Plus Felicity dropped Ray like a potato sack. I was fine with that, but of course I hate him.)

I don't actually think we disagree...for me, if it happens, it's ANOTHER sign they're not this big love I thought they were. The first clue for me was all the lying. I don't really get you how can lie to someone's face, again and again, about something they have every right to know, if you're in love with that person. I just can't imagine it, and it wasn't even for like national security or something. 

Also, I don't necessarily think either of them are going to be in actual relationships w other people. I think there's a decent chance of a flirtation/a date or two. 

But in season 3 all Oliver and Felicity shared before she got together with Ray was a half date and a kiss. I think you can have feelings for someone and believe that if you ever got together you would be the best couple on the planet but it isn't the same thing as being with that person, sharing your life and planning a future together and that's what they did from the end of season 3 to the first half of season 4. Moving on from almost getting married is something else then moving on from a chance of dating..

After they broke up they had a couple of episodes at odds then they started to act married again and they are supposedly spending the summer rebuilding the lair together..that's no mourning or even trying to move on IMO, just plain denial.

Yeah, I agree, the one big difference between us is that I still have hope for them despite the plot that shall not be named. LOL

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

After they broke up they had a couple of episodes at odds then they started to act married again and they are supposedly spending the summer rebuilding the lair together..that's no mourning or even trying to move on IMO, just plain denial.

When did they start to act married again? I mostly see complaints that they barely interacted and acted as if they had never even been together. And Oliver was certainly doing a good bit of mourning the relationship before the main action happened in the last few episodes.

To be clear, I watched the episodes, and mostly didn't see them acting married. Even in 4.20, which I quite enjoyed, they barely touched. She supported his vision quest, but that's not necessarily a romantic relationship thing, bc she's always supported him in his heroing activities. And even with the summer rebuilding, we have SA clearly stating that they're "not together in S5." Presumably he means the beginning of S5, because he's only seen a couple scripts, but it doesn't seem that the summer of rebuilding itself gets them back together.

The #1 reason I think other, likely casual, LIs are likely isn't that it suits the story, isn't even that it suits their characters (although I'm ambivalent on that one), it's really that I absolutely think Guggie is dumb enough to do it. Or at a minimum, to tease it. 

I do still want them back together, because even though I only halfway like him now, I find them entertaining together, and loathe the angstiness. I don't WANT them to date other people. But I didn't WANT him to lie to Felicity's face for months, either. If I got what I wanted in this show Malcolm would be long dead, Tommy would be alive, S3 would never have happened, Laurel would have died in the Pilot, Moira would be alive, Walter would be at least recurring, Thea would have left for a realllllly long European vacation years ago, Roy would be around, Digg would have skipped his very own angst-fest, etc. I very rarely get what I want when it comes to this crazy frustrating show.

[ComicFan777]

I think the issue for me is that it's not too late for Oliver show her that she can trust him and that he has changed, so why move on?  She's decided to stick around.  She's already admitted to him that she didn't mean it when she said he could never change - she only said it because she was hurt.  She told him at the end of 4.16 that she still loves him with everything in her.  She hasn't stopped loving him, but she can't trust that he will actually change. 

And now, she's staying behind to be his partner.  There's the chance that he asked for.  They still talk to each other.  They still work together.  They are still partners.  She did say that she can't be with him, but it's because he hasn't proven that he's changed yet.  She can just as easily change her mind if she can trust that he is actively working through his issues.  In 4.20, she mentioned that they don't need to be in a relationship for him to include her - when she had to push to go with him to the casino instead of him going alone.  He doesn't need to be currently dating her to work on building that trust again, to really talk to her, to actively include her in his life, and to give her reason to believe that he is the man that she always thought he was and that his words really mean something.

Sure, the same BM-like scenario isn't going to come around again for some grand gesture, but it doesn't need to - trust can be built through time from smaller things to show that he has actually thought about what she said.  I haven't done a rewatch to refresh my memory, but I think everything that he has said after 4.16 to show the audience that he's truly thought about what Felicity said and that he's actively trying to work to change has been said to everyone else but Felicity - now that she's around more and in a better mindset (than in 4.16) to listen, I hope they have an honest conversation...that she gets to hear that from him, that she gets to say her piece, and gets the opportunity to see that he's seriously working on it. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Morrigan2575]

Well, as of now (and it's super dooper early) there's no indication that Oliver is willing to change. We haven't gotten a single indication, IMO in S4 or even very limited comments from Actors/Producers that he wants to change, is willing to change or anything like that. 

Yes, I get that the theme supports Oliver learning/changing/growing but for all the talk of Oliver learning or showing Felicity that he learned and wants to change, we got bupkis (IMO).   All i got in S4 is talk about Felicity admitting her role in the breakup and Felicity saying she was sorry she told Oliver he couldn't change.  

As of right now, all i have to go on, is the idea that they'll sacrifice Felicity's character for an Olicity reunion, which I'm not down for.  Will it go that way? Maybe/Maybe not, it's too early to tell but Oliver is the Big Damn Hero so i suspect in the end Felicity will be the one "sacrificed" to make the relationship work.

As for the end of S4. I never saw married couple or  hugging in S4 post breakup. In fact the only hugging i remembered was in 421 or 422 where Felicity hugged Oliver and he didn't do anything.  It was very awkward, IMO.  I didn't see them acting like they did in 401-409, more like late S1/Early S2 and then 221-223. Which, wasn't a negative but certainly much less then where they were in 401-409

Edited July 1, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Midnight Lullaby]

21 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

When did they start to act married again? I mostly see complaints that they barely interacted and acted as if they had never even been together. And Oliver was certainly doing a good bit of mourning the relationship before the main action happened in the last few episodes.

To be clear, I watched the episodes, and mostly didn't see them acting married. Even in 4.20, which I quite enjoyed, they barely touched. She supported his vision quest, but that's not necessarily a romantic relationship thing, bc she's always supported him in his heroing activities. And even with the summer rebuilding, we have SA clearly stating that they're "not together in S5." Presumably he means the beginning of S5, because he's only seen a couple scripts, but it doesn't seem that the summer of rebuilding itself gets them back together.

The #1 reason I think other, likely casual, LIs are likely isn't that it suits the story, isn't even that it suits their characters (although I'm ambivalent on that one), it's really that I absolutely think Guggie is dumb enough to do it. Or at a minimum, to tease it. 

I do still want them back together, because even though I only halfway like him now, I find them entertaining together, and loathe the angstiness. I don't WANT them to date other people. But I didn't WANT him to lie to Felicity's face for months, either. If I got what I wanted in this show Malcolm would be long dead, Tommy would be alive, S3 would never have happened, Laurel would have died in the Pilot, Moira would be alive, Walter would be at least recurring, Thea would have left for a realllllly long European vacation years ago, Roy would be around, Digg would have skipped his very own angst-fest, etc. I very rarely get what I want when it comes to this crazy frustrating show.

My complaint has always been that after 4x16 they shared little screen time and they acted as if Oliver didn't drop a bomb on their relationship. We also talked about the actors playing the characters as if they were still together if you remember.

They used to act married in season 2 as well..I didn't mean it in the romantic sense but in the other aspects of being partners like relying on the other person, worrying, asking for their opinion..stuff like that.

That I remember without having to look for the scenes in 17 he went to save her and told her she never has to thank him, in 19 he tried to be there for her, they were together after the funeral, in 20 she didn't let him go to the casino alone, she helped him when he had doubts, when he came back from saving Thea she hugged him and didn't even look at the other two, in 22 he told everyone how highly he thinks about her skills, in 23 they were there to comfort the other every step of the way and in the end she decided to stand by him..they never really put distance between them. I think if you are in love with someone and you act like a couple only without the touching you aren't moving on.

There are lots of things that I would change obviously but I can power through a lot if they don't destroy what I like completely. :/

[AyChihuahua]

23 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Sure, the same BM-like scenario isn't going to come around again for some grand gesture, but it doesn't need to - trust can be built through time from smaller things to show that he has actually thought about what she said.  I haven't done a rewatch to refresh my memory, but I think everything that he has said after 4.16 to show the audience that he's truly thought about what Felicity said and that he's actively trying to work to change has been said to everyone else but Felicity - now that she's around more and in a better mindset (than in 4.16) to listen, I hope they have an honest conversation...that she gets to hear that from him and gets the opportunity to see that he's seriously working on it. 

I really wish they HAD done the big gesture, where he had good reason to lie to her and chose not to. Because my problem, and possibly Felicity's if the show were at all realistic, is that they had months of trust being rebuilt from smaller things. He lied to her for months in S3, which I know people want to forget, but did happen. Then they had their sex-soaked summer of trust, but it was without any big challenges. When they got back he totally did include her and rely on her for the smaller things. I really don't think that has ever been their problem...their problem is the big things. They handle daily life/trust really well, but when something big comes up, he lies/shuts her out. So for me, building up her trust through small moments is been there/done that, doesn't survive the big stuff.