Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

Do you think BM told Spawn hanging with this new random dude was a secret, too? Do you think she told him not to tell anyone? I wonder if he was at school telling his friends that some weird bearded guy visits from time to time and plays superheroes with him and looks at him like a sad panda. 

 

LOL

 

But seriously, not introducing the kid to Oliver herself, and allowing him to go up to William's room on his own under the guise of being "mommy's friend" was probably one of the stupidest things she could've possibly done. I don't know how DD got the kid, but he didn't seem panicked or anything, and completely bought the excuse that Samantha had asked the Darhk family to watch him for a while, so...yeah. 

[Primal Slayer]

dp

Edited February 20, 2016 by Primal Slayer

[apinknightmare]

Oh yeah, they would all drop their lives to make sure Olivers mistake would be ok in a whole different city. 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I wrote - that they should all drop everything to watch over him night and day. 

[Ann Mack]

I swear every time I see the sneak peek for episode 4x15 and Oliver yells "I want to know my son is safe" I seriously just want to punch him in the throat! 

 

[hogwash]

The moment Oliver chopped off Malcolm's hand, Team Arrow should have known. But I guess if logic applied, there wouldn't a BS reason for Oliver/Felicity to breakup. 

[Scribbles]

The chickens come home to roost on Oliver's lies (at least some of them).  From the looks of the pics...the coop is not a comfortable place for Oliver to be....which is fine given his choices.

 

I am not going to blame BM for her kid being kidnapped by HIVE,  I doubt all the lessons in the world about stranger danger would have made a difference against a determined super villain.  It is fair to blame her for forcing Oliver to withhold the truth from those who can help and I hope that gets noted to some degree in show.

 

Her being in the lair makes sense enough.  They need all hands on deck and not having to tie someone up at another place to keep her safe and informed seems logical.  Allowing her to see the efforts being made will reduce a lot of need to comfort and so forth.  Having her close by also allows for quick info exchange that may aid in getting William free (she is his mother....).

 

I haven't seen a pic of Laurel embracing BM.  There is a pic of her touching the arm of BM (and BM doesn't look comforted by it).  In that pic I read nothing more than something likely to happen if talking to someone who has just lost their child to a nefarious criminal organization.  Even bad history between people doesn't preclude basic human compassion.  An embrace would be a bit much.

 

I just angst more over the SA statement indicating something worse to come.  I can see Olicity diehards not liking what the pics and preview show, but if that is not the worst of it....good grief.

[Primal Slayer]

LOL

 

But seriously, not introducing the kid to Oliver herself, and allowing him to go up to William's room on his own under the guise of being "mommy's friend" was probably one of the stupidest things she could've possibly done. I don't know how DD got the kid, but he didn't seem panicked or anything, and completely bought the excuse that Samantha had asked the Darhk family to watch him for a while, so...yeah. 

She obviously has no problem bending the truth so if her son was under danger and being threatened, she probably didn't have a problem telling the kid that this guy is a friend to help keep him (william) safe.

[kismet]

I'm actually starting to wonder if we'll get an actual vocalized break-up at all. I think Felicity will throw herself into helping find William and we won't know how she feels for all of the episode. Oliver will return to the loft at the end and the ring will just be sitting there and that will say everything. 

I'd actually be ok with that ending of 415, so long as we got her perspective in 416. It does speak volumes. I want them to talk it out, but I think the visual of FS leaving the ring behind might break through OQ's thick fog of stupid.

[Starfish35]

I haven't seen a pic of Laurel embracing BM. There is a pic of her touching the arm of BM (and BM doesn't look comforted by it). In that pic I read nothing more than something likely to happen if talking to someone who has just lost their child to a nefarious criminal organization. Even bad history between people doesn't preclude basic human compassion. An embrace would be a bit much.

The "embrace" comes from KC's interview a few weeks ago where she said that we would see Laurel "embrace" someone you wouldn't necessarily expect her to. "Embrace" was her word, and she may or may not have meant it literally.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Starfish35

[apinknightmare]

She obviously has no problem bending the truth so if her son was under danger and being threatened, she probably didn't have a problem telling the kid that this guy is a friend to help keep him (william) safe.

 

 

A decent parent would've been present for her son's first meeting with a guy he'd never met and she didn't even know very well. Instead she let Oliver introduce himself to William as a friend of hers on his own, without her around - so now William thinks that he can trust people he's never met before who introduce themselves as his mother's friend. Which I'm guessing is what Damien did when he took him since William seems to think Samantha actually asked Damien to watch him, and doesn't seem to be alarmed that he's in some stranger's home.

Edited February 20, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

Letting one guy see him without her is not going to make a 10 year old automatically think that anyone he meets without mommy is nice and friendly. DD could easily have tracked them down, threatened her and William, she could've easily gone to her son and said "this "nice" man is a friend of mommys and is going to take you on a trip blah blah blah" so he doesn't freak out. But we'll see how it plays out (if we even see how it played out in the first place)

[Ann Mack]

Well on a positive note maybe Diggle will have his new helmet. They showed it got damaged in the last episode. David Ramsey did say Diggle would be getting an updated one. Since he will be in Central City maybe Cisco designs his new one for him. That plus Vixen right now are the only things that may fall into the positive column right now. Maybe once the episode airs there will be more but the chances are probably slim to none for this episode. 

[NoWayOut]

[apinknightmare]

DD could easily have tracked them down, threatened her and William, she could've easily gone to her son and said "this "nice" man is a friend of mommys and is going to take you on a trip blah blah blah" so he doesn't freak out. But we'll see how it plays out (if we even see how it played out in the first place)

 

I highly doubt it since DD is the one who notifies Oliver that the kid has been taken, and not Samantha. But yeah, hopefully I'm wrong. I don't *want* her to have raised a moron. 

[AyChihuahua]

I STG, if Diggle throws crazy shade at that hagbag lying scumwad baby mama and at Oliver, I will...be a tiny bit less pissed off about this. PLEASE let him be very clearly and firmly on Felicity's side!

[Ann Mack]

I do so hope Felicity has an ally in this episode.

[Scribbles]

The "embrace" comes from KC's interview a few weeks ago where she said that we would see Laurel "embrace" someone you wouldn't necessarily expect her to. "Embrace" was her word, and she may or may not have meant it literally.

Ahhh.  So odd that it would be a shock for KC would see it as noteworthy that anyone would embrace a worried mother....just odd.  Who wouldn't have their heart go out to a mother worried sick by their kid being taken....sigh

[apinknightmare]

Who wouldn't have their heart go out to a mother worried sick by their kid being taken....sigh

 

Pretty sure I'll manage it, haha. 

[BunsenBurner]

William will be taken by DD who will do some kind of magic trance on him and that is why he isn't afraid.

[apinknightmare]

William will be taken by DD who will do some kind of magic trance on him and that is why he isn't afraid.

 

If that's what it is, it would explain the dopiness at the end there. 

[Chaser]

Diggle is looking at BM and Laurel here. He has NOTP Syndrome too. 

[AyChihuahua]

William will be taken by DD who will do some kind of magic trance on him and that is why he isn't afraid.

He's his daddy's son. Therefore he has, at most, three brain cells. Of course he's not afraid. (Plus for whatever reason they've had him behaving like a four-year-old...real kids his age play more with video games than superhero dollies.)

[NumberCruncher]

I STG, if Diggle throws crazy shade at that hagbag lying scumwad baby mama and at Oliver, I will...be a tiny bit less pissed off about this. PLEASE let him be very clearly and firmly on Felicity's side!

Ditto. In fact, forget this show...I just need a whole hour watching David Ramsey side-eye the idiots around him.

[Scribbles]

I just don't see Felicity (if staying in character) being concerned about anything other than how to best accomplish the mission of safely getting William back.  I could see her hoping Oliver does so without killing anything or anyone between him and the child and that becoming an issue.  I can see Oliver struggling to trust the job getting done to anyone, and that becoming an issue as well.

 

Actually thinking about it and the time when he needed to get to Thea in season 2...Felicity said do what it takes.... editing to add that

Edited February 20, 2016 by Scribbles

[Guest]

It's ironic that the people who Samantha didn't want to know about William are the very people who will save him from DD.

If she doesn't apologize in some way for demanding the secret, and at least acknowledge that it was the wrong thing, there is no salvaging her character at all. She might as well just go sit in the trash where she belongs.

I just don't see Felicity (if staying in character) being concerned about anything other than how to best accomplish the mission of safely getting William back. I could see her hoping Oliver does so without killing anything or anyone between him and the child and that becoming an issue. I can see Oliver struggling to trust the job getting done to anyone, and that becoming an issue as well.

That's the only good thing about those promo pics - that we know Felicity is there, focused on the mission of getting William back. Edited February 20, 2016 by Guest

[quarks]

Hey, it's another little Arrow miracle, guys! For the first time ever, I want a Laurel and Felicity scene, where they're both like, you know, yeah, it's Oliver, but can you seriously believe that he brought Samantha to our lair?  And Felicity's like, yeah, Laurel, I mean, it's one thing for him to reveal his secret identity, but yours? To the woman he cheated on you with? And Laurel's like, yeah, Felicity, I mean, he won't tell you the secret he's sharing with Samantha, but he's willing to tell Samantha that you're also a secret vigilante? WHY DID I STOP DRINKING? I mean, I'm on this show! I should know better!  

 

And then they get chocolate milkshakes. 

Edited February 20, 2016 by quarks

[kes0704]

So it was too much of a safety risk to tell Felicity about the kid but it's perfectly safe to tell BM ALL of their secrets. Okay then. Are the writers doubling down on the stupid here?

I hope Oliver at least consulted with the team before inviting her into their secret lair and blabbing everything to a woman they don't know. Being entirely petty here, but I hope the rest of the team impose some stupid conditions on keeping their secrets before agreeing to find her son, poetic justice and all that. Edited to add: I know they're not going to do this because they're not horrible people :)

I know I shouldn't judge so harshly something I haven't seen yet but they are making it so damn hard. I thought I couldn't hate this story more, seems I may have been wrong about that.

Edited February 20, 2016 by kes0704

[Starfish35]

Ahhh.  So odd that it would be a shock for KC would see it as noteworthy that anyone would embrace a worried mother....just odd.  Who wouldn't have their heart go out to a mother worried sick by their kid being taken....sigh

I think she meant that you wouldn't necessarily expect Laurel (or any woman for that matter) to "embrace" the woman that her ex cheated on her with, even if it was ten years ago.

[Guest]

I know she's THE HOLY MOTHER OF HIS CHILD AND BLOOD RELATIVES MEAN EVERYTHING IN QUEEN LAND but I'm really pissed that Oliver is showing more respect to Samantha than to the woman he plans to marry. Felicity has been there for him through everything while Samantha has lied to him for ten years and then demanded more lies and yet she gets to know his secret life, just like that?

I really don't want to hate on Oliver but no. Naw son. I ain't here for this.

(Crossing my fingers I'm overreacting and the pictures are worse than the episode but I'm not holding my breath.)

Edited February 20, 2016 by Guest

[Chaser]

I think they may have had Oliver mention the cheating in the last episode so that they could dodge it in this one. I'm expecting no more than a shrug from Laurel before she makes friends with BM.

I don't see Felicity having much of an issue with BM/Kid either. I think she will be shocked and a little unsure around BM but I'm expecting the hard emotions to be directed at Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

I hope Oliver at least consulted with the team before inviting her into their secret lair and blabbing everything to a woman they don't know. Being entirely petty here, but I hope the rest of the team impose some stupid conditions on keeping their secrets before agreeing to find her son, poetic justice and all that.

"Okay, Baby Mama...yeah, I'm gonna keep on calling you Baby Mama. Would you prefer the obvious alternative, lying ho? No? Okay, so, Baby Mama, you can wait here with us, but you can't go over there, or there, or there. You can only move within a six-foot radius of where you are right now. Safety issues, no, no safety issues, just telling you not to move outside of six feet. Oh, you have to go to the bathroom? Guess you'd better hold it then, because, Baby Mama, the bathroom ain't for liars. Yeah, that means Oliver and Thea lost bathroom privileges, too. You can all use the alley. Yeah, we're gonna help you get your dumb kid back, but you have to keep your arms crossed until I say. Why? Because, Baby Mama, I said so. That's how it works, right, Baby Mama?"

[Scribbles]

I know she's THE HOLY MOTHER OF HIS CHILD AND BLOOD RELATIVES MEAN EVERYTHIMG IN QUEEN LAND but I'm really pissed that Oliver is showing more respect to Samantha than the woman he plans to marry. Felicity has been there for him through everything while Samantha has lied to him for ten years and then demanded more lies and yet she gets to know his secret life, just like that?

I really don't want to hate on Oliver but no. Naw son. I ain't here for this.

(Crossing my fingers I'm overreacting and the pictures are worse than the episode but I'm not holding my breath.)

Oliver has shown Felicity more respect than either Laurel or the BM, at least when it comes to being faithful.  The show has tried to show Oliver is not comfortable with keeping a lie between himself and Felicity and is troubled by it.  The Oliver BM and Laurel had would not have thought twice about lying to them.

 

I just don't think the secret of his GA identity or the teams is gonna be an issue to them in these circumstances, but it may.

 

Editing to add:  Recall the scene is "As Good As It Gets" with the line...."you make me want to be a better man".  That is Oliver with Felicity, he doesn't just want her....he wants to be the man she deserves.  Not true for him with the other two skirts.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Scribbles

[Guest]

Oliver has shown Felicity more respect than either Laurel or the BM, at least when it comes to being faithful. The show has tried to show Oliver is not comfortable with keeping a lie between himself and Felicity and is troubled by it. The Oliver BM and Laurel had would not have thought twice about lying to them.

I just don't think the secret of his GA identity or the teams is gonna be an issue to them in these circumstances, but it may.

But we're not even talking about him being faithful. That's not the issue here. He may have been troubled over the lie and rightly so (and I appreciate that he was troubled) but he still went along with it, all too easily tbh. I don't know, seeing Samantha in the lair has rubbed me up the wrong way. She's just getting everything she demands and an elevated importance simply because their condom broke ten years ago.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Guest

[Scribbles]

I don't know, seeing Samantha in the lair has rubbed me up the wrong way. She's just getting everything she demands and an elevated importance simply because their condom broke ten years ago.

 

I am with ya on this and it is not TV I want to watch.  My point is that Felicity isn't dating/engaged to the same man Laurel and Samantha had relations with and they were not the women who made him the man he is trying to be with Felicity.

[Password]

Tbh I think the real reason Oliver is keeping the secret is simply because Baby Mama told him to. There is no evidence to the contrary because the child isn't a secret anymore therefore he'd be able to tell Felicity. He's just being loyal to the mother of his child.

What's that? Oh yes it is my vomit you just walked through.

[jay741982]

I'm petty cause I'm wanting Felicity to confront Thea with her Hypocrisy after finding out The a knew about and told Oliver to keep the secret to honor a promise to a woman who kept the kid from him for nine years when he doesn't owe her a Goddamn thing when Thea raged about Oliver and Moria hiding from her the truth about her real father a POS whos responsible for over 500 deaths and left with that piece of shit WHO OLIVER KNEW found about his son.

Edited February 20, 2016 by jay741982

[Sunshine]

Maybe Samantha knowing GA & Company's identity means she & William will be going far far away at the end of the episode.

[ComicFan777]

Tbh I think the real reason Oliver is keeping the secret is simply because Baby Mama told him to. There is no evidence to the contrary because the child isn't a secret anymore therefore he'd be able to tell Felicity. He's just being loyal to the mother of his child.

What's that? Oh yes it is my vomit you just walked through.

 

As Felicity said before,"boobs can get a frat boy (namely Oliver) to do anything."

[Starfish35]

I don't know, seeing Samantha in the lair has rubbed me up the wrong way. She's just getting everything she demands and an elevated importance simply because their condom broke ten years ago.

Honestly, I don't really care about that. I'm surprised, to put it mildly. But beyond that *shrug*

My main huge concern for this episode has to do with Felicity, and what many of you have already voiced. She really really needs to be presented as the one in the right when she breaks off the engagement, and I'm concerned about how the writers will present that.

I mean, I believe she'll be in the right to break it off. But I really need the writers to present it to the audience as her being in the right, and Oliver being wrong wrong wrong. And I have no faith in the writers right now.

It's a lot like the whole Sara resurrection storyline with Laurel. I could deal with that as long as I thought that Laurel would eventually be shown to be very very wrong in doing what she did. But unfortunately the writers didn't think she was wrong to do it, and so the writing justified her, and made Oliver to be in the wrong about it. I don't want that to happen here. I don't want the writing to justify Oliver in his decisions, or in any way to make Felicity out to be in the wrong for breaking up with him. That's my main worry going into this episode.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Starfish35

[foreverevolving]

huh?! hi what the hell where did my post disappear off to?

[apinknightmare]

She's just getting everything she demands and an elevated importance simply because their condom broke ten years ago.

 

This is another problem with the plot line they've chosen to write. After having some time to let this idiocy sink in, it makes sense (to me) that Oliver might want to tell her that he's the Green Arrow on his own, given what little bit we know about his and Samantha's dynamic. For reasons that are stupid, because this whole thing is stupid - Oliver feels beholden to her in order to keep seeing the kid, and doesn't want to risk pissing her off for fear that she'll take that away from him (ignoring the fact that law and lawyers exist, because this show has done that). With her knowing that William being Oliver's son is the very reason that he's been kidnapped, which was the reason she stated for not wanting Oliver around in the first place, then it makes sense that he'd want her to know that he is also capable of getting William out of messes like that, because he's the Green Arrow. A revelation which, of course, should make her want to run away screaming, because that's two strikes against him in the "putting the kid in danger by association" column. 

 

Bleh. Can it just be Thursday already? Or May, even?

[Carrie Ann]

Maybe Samantha knowing GA & Company's identity means she & William will be going far far away at the end of the episode.

 

This is my greatest hope--indeed, my only hope remaining for this trash episode. We know the episode is going to end with a big monologue from Oliver, and I want that monologue to be the text of a letter he writes to William, for him to read one day when he's older, when he has a brand new name and a new home, deep within Witness Protection. Clearly I wouldn't care about the words in the monologue in that case, but if it means that storyline is over forever, I will take it.

[Chaser]

Honestly, I don't really care about that. I'm surprised, to put it mildly. But beyond that *shrug*

My main huge concern for this episode has to do with Felicity, and what many of you have already voiced. She really really needs to be presented as the one in the right when she breaks off the engagement, and I'm concerned about how the writers will present that.

I mean, I believe she'll be in the right to break it off. But I really need the writers to present it to the audience as her being in the right, and Oliver being wrong wrong wrong. And I have no faith in the writers right now.

It's a lot like the whole Sara resurrection storyline with Laurel. I could deal with that as long as I thought that Laurel would eventually be shown to be very very wrong in doing what she did. But unfortunately the writers didn't think she was wrong to do it, and so the writing justified her, and made Oliver to be in the wrong about it. I don't want that to happen here. I don't want the writing to justify Oliver in his decisions, or in any way to make Felicity out to be in the wrong for breaking up with him. That's my main worry going into this episode.

Same. And the thing is, I need him to be shown in the wrong for just as much his benefit as Felicitys. It's character growth.

[Princess Vanellope]

Honestly, I don't really care about that. I'm surprised, to put it mildly. But beyond that *shrug*

My main huge concern for this episode has to do with Felicity, and what many of you have already voiced. She really really needs to be presented as the one in the right when she breaks off the engagement, and I'm concerned about how the writers will present that.

I mean, I believe she'll be in the right to break it off. But I really need the writers to present it to the audience as her being in the right, and Oliver being wrong wrong wrong. And I have no faith in the writers right now.

It's a lot like the whole Sara resurrection storyline with Laurel. I could deal with that as long as I thought that Laurel would eventually be shown to be very very wrong in doing what she did. But unfortunately the writers didn't think she was wrong to do it, and so the writing justified her, and made Oliver to be in the wrong about it. I don't want that to happen here. I don't want the writing to justify Oliver in his decisions, or in any way to make Felicity out to be in the wrong for breaking up with him. That's my main worry going into this episode.

Sadly, your fear may be fully realized. Thea last week agreed with his choice. Barry agreed with it too. Given the "forgive the lies" anvils dropping all over last week, and the "I'm a dad and I'd lie to protect my son" drum MG has been beating on social media, I am absolutely afraid that Felicity will be thrown under a very large bus. Ugh, I feel ill just thinking about it

[apinknightmare]

This is my greatest hope--indeed, my only hope remaining for this trash episode. We know the episode is going to end with a big monologue from Oliver, and I want that monologue to be the text of a letter he writes to William, for him to read one day when he's older, when he has a brand new name and a new home, deep within Witness Protection. Clearly I wouldn't care about the words in the monologue in that case, but if it means that storyline is over forever, I will take it.

 

Dear William,

 

I am you're* father.

 

 

 

*he so makes this mistake

[jay741982]

For what it's worth MG said we would hear both sides. But again I know how Guggenstupid is

[statsgirl]

What strikes me most about that picture of them all in the lair is that Thea and Vixen are on one side wearing super comfortable low heels books, and Laurel and Samantha are on the other, wearing heeled boots. I totally understand why they're bonding, they have fashion in common.

Honestly, at this point I am sure they are setting up Felicity to be the bad guy in the break up. They had Thea validate his choices in the past episode, and I am sure Laurel and Diggle will too once they find out that a) Oliver has a kid and b) the kid was kidnapped by DD. So of course Oliver was making the right choices.

One of the few things that I find slightly interesting about all this is that the audience is pretty much 90% on Felicity's side. There are those people who don't like her and say she had no right to know about the kid, but most people support her and think that Oliver was wrong to lie and to propose without telling her she's going to be a stepmom.  So once again the EPs are going to find themselves in a situation where they're trying to tell a story and their audience is sniggering that the emperor has no clothes.

 

And it's totally idiotic to let BM into the lair.  Not only does it not have a lock, it seems to have a swinging door for everyone to get in.  Is Curtis going to be there too?  She didn't trust Oliver enough to let him tell his fiance but now he's trusting her with all his secrets?

 

All the better to blackmail you, my dear, she says to Oliver.

 

 

 

Oh shit, at this rate Laurel AND Felicity will probably apologize to HER!

 

Laurel will say she's sorry that she kept Oliver away from her and the baby when they were in college.  "If I had known he had that kind of obligation to someone, I would have totally step aside. I'm so sorry he wasn't there for you. Don't worry, he'll be there for you and William now.  He's good like that."

 

Then Felicity will say, "I'm sorry our relationship and my time in the hospital kept Oliver from focusing totally on you and William.  He'll make up for it now, I promise."

 

Then yes, yes, we will get Felicity telling Oliver to go take care of his son - she will be fine on her own.  William needs him now.

LOL That actually might make more sense that what this looks like.

 

Maybe Oliver can marry Samantha then since she's more important than Felicity.

 

For all we know DD could've threatened her and she could've told William that he was a friend so he wouldn't freak out.

She looked bad enough before, but if she told her son that the man threatening her was a friend rather than to run in the opposite direction if he sees him, then she deserves what she's getting. Poor William doesn't though.

 

Nor does he deserve to have to leave his home, friends and maternal family because his mother is selfish and stupid.

Edited February 20, 2016 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

Dear William,

I am you're* father.

*he so makes this mistake

Oh my god. Oliver's the Rachel. Edited February 20, 2016 by Chaser

[Starfish35]

I do actually think this might be the end of the Claytons for the foreseeable future. My inclination is to think that if they were planning to keep them around longer, they would not have rushed the GA reveal, because that would be something they could tease out for a while if they were sticking around. This way, it really puts a cap on that particular storyline, for now anyway.

[NoWayOut]

Felicity: "Oliver, why didn't you trust and respect me enough to tell me about William?"

Samantha: "Felicity, I am the mother of his child."
Oliver: "Felicity, you aren't the mother of my child."
Thea and Marc Guggenheim: "Felicity, you aren't the mother of his child."
Laurel: *embraces the mother of Oliver's child*
Diggle: "Y'all know the child actress portraying my child is being replaced, right?"