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I have the feeling Dmitri is going to commit suicide and (hopefully) cause a crisis of conscience for Dr. Professor Spy NSA Agent Extraordinaire Eye Candy.

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Are you kidding me??!!!  The tag in the preview for next week is "Honor thy country or honor thy husband".   Congrats Tim Daly, I guess it pays to be sleeping with the star.  Honest to god.  I assume she will honor thy husband and then save the world because Dr. Husband Spy McSmugasallgetout is  always right.

Edited by pennben

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Well, it's been boiling up that Bess & Dr. Arm Candy HATE not being able to tell each other what's going on in their lives. Though, I'm assuming it's NOT because she doesn't have security clearance...it's more about what Russell called last night "plausible deniability." (Isn't that a leftover from the Nixon administration?)

 

And, as husband and wife, they are legally protected from having to testify against each other if it comes to that.

 

...unless the house is bugged...

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The preview where it showed Russell saying they would spend the rest of their lives in jail if they told each other what they know better have been a misdirection. That was pretty dumb.  

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Didn't she already get in trouble last year when sharing secret information with him involving the murder of the prior Secretary of State and could have gone to jail.  And she admitted as much in Congress and then her poll numbers went up at the end? 

 

And somehow now we are building to a Dr. Mcknowsbetter will have to make the same ethical call this year? Throw him in jail, I say!

Edited by pennben

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I think Russell is going to have a serious health issue this season. Two episodes in a row his health has been briefly showcased.  After Elizabeth's scene with the bad NSA guy last night, I almost wonder if he will replace Russell.

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I think Russell is going to have a serious health issue this season. Two episodes in a row his health has been briefly showcased.  After Elizabeth's scene with the bad NSA guy last night, I almost wonder if he will replace Russell.

 

It's possible. I had an idea that they highlighted his health because he'd already had a heart attack in the past. Maybe he will have another heart attack as a dramatic cliffhanger?

 

Although if TPTBs decided to replace Russell with the Scrappy NSA guy and continue with Dr Awesome's unbearable plotlines, I would just stop watching this show altogether. Those two things have zero appeal to me as a viewer.

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So I came here to post about catching a very funny Keith Carradine in an NCIS repeat (drug addict, stringy long hair, etc.). I went to the CBS show page because I couldn't remember the President's name (probably because it is my sister-in-law's maiden name and .... we do not get along). But he's not listed! Am I to read something into this?? Did some intern remove him from the cast page a day early???? Has he never been on there because he's "recurring?" He still gets more screen time than the kids, and they get top billing.  Perhaps I am reading too much into it. It just surprised me that if you have an actor of that caliber - you flaunt it. (Much like TWW and "....and Martin Sheen." <end credits>)

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I never hang out in spoiler threads, but hello! Tumblr is freaking out about this potential goodbye tweet from Tim Daly?What do we think?

Maybe Tim and Tea had a big argument after sex on a date. They broke up and Tea told CBS to take him off the show.

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Hee. So you don't think Henry's going to die of radiation poisoning, I take it. I find myself kind of wondering cause that's a difficult one to write themselves out of.

Joke aside, it does seem like an exaggerated event for a lead character. It depends on the composition of the bomb. 

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I think he's going to develop (more) superpowers and get his own spinoff.But

 

But seriously, if he is leaving, that will mess with the show so much: the marriage is one of the strongest parts of the show, and I can't see Bess staying on as the Secretary with 2 younger kids still at home.

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I think he's going to develop (more) superpowers and get his own spinoff.But

 

But seriously, if he is leaving, that will mess with the show so much: the marriage is one of the strongest parts of the show, and I can't see Bess staying on as the Secretary with 2 younger kids still at home.

Agree. It presents more as a fake-out. It makes little sense that CBS would kill the family dynamic which makes the show successful. The show just passed the halfway point of the scheduled 22 episodes for season 2.  If there are now BTS issues between the leads, that would be a real shame.

Edited by VinceW

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I think it would be a terrible idea too. The show has been struggling with Henry outside the McCord home, but inside the home he's great and their marriage is the cutest? But the show hasn't been immune from terrible ideas recently so that's not convincing me. Even though I want to be convinced, sigh.

Téa retweeted his two tweets, I don't think anyone's worried about anything going on besides a potential (terrible) creative decision? Please spill the tea if you have some, though.

And watching the promo, Henry almost definitely will have radiation poisoning. I guess rather than dying on Sunday he could hang on long enough to die of cancer in the season finale? Ugh I have to stop thinking about this now.

Edited by innocuouspuff
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That would ruin the show for me. I feel like his character has been overused in a lot of ways, but not in the family aspects.  I love their relationship and have no interest in seeing Bess date. Which, if she's single, you know would become a plotline.

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If Tim Daly were really leaving the show he would have waited until after his last episode aired to send his goodbye tweet. This looks like a stunt to create buzz and get people to tune in next week.

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If Tim Daly were really leaving the show he would have waited until after his last episode aired to send his goodbye tweet. This looks like a stunt to create buzz and get people to tune in next week.

His tweet is almost word for word what Scott Foley did when everyone thought he was killed on Scandal last season. Of course, it was a fake-out.  

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His tweet is almost word for word what Scott Foley did when everyone thought he was killed on Scandal last season. Of course, it was a fake-out.

Okay, *that* makes me feel better. I actually didn't think much about the first tweet, but with the second I thought it seemed strange. Usually the only reason to play coy in response to a direct question about whether or not you've been fired, is if you've actually been fired. Otherwise you'd try to control those type of rumours for fear of ending up on the wrong side of them. If fandom panic was always the goal then why tweet a second time at all. But if it's a common actor habit, I'll go with that.

Edited by innocuouspuff

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Anyone else notice that they still haven't replaced the National Security Advisor? I wonder what is up with that, if they simply haven't bothered to find an actor/don't want to add another actor right now or I had this horrible idea the other day that they might plan to give the position to Henry once they catch the terrorist, if they catch him but since this is TV they probably will. I love him as a family guy but I think it would be wrong on so many levels.

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http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/04/cbs-upcoming-episode-press-releases_6.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

Premise for episode 20. I think that Henry and Bess clash was only a matter of time. And can I reiterate that Henry's not fitted for that line of work if he still puts the individual above the Greater Good? Can someone tell him already, please? (And if he gets to be right I'm going to scream)

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http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/04/cbs-upcoming-episode-press-releases_6.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

Premise for episode 20. I think that Henry and Bess clash was only a matter of time. And can I reiterate that Henry's not fitted for that line of work if he still puts the individual above the Greater Good? Can someone tell him already, please? (And if he gets to be right I'm going to scream)

 

Wanna bet Elizabeth is the the one who would be unreasonable but he would throw a temper tantrum and be right?

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CooperTV, on 08 Apr 2016 - 10:44 PM, said:CooperTV, on 08 Apr 2016 - 10:44 PM, said:

Wanna bet Elizabeth is the the one who would be unreasonable but he would throw a temper tantrum and be right?

 

I don't want to bet but I fear that's going to happen. And apparently, they're going to attend couple's therapy in the episode afterwards. http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/04/cbs-upcoming-episode-press-releases_8.html  Seriously? I know I sound like a broken record but if Henry can't separate his personal feelings from his job and keeps blaming Bess (which I assume is going to happen since they're fighting over Talia in the episode before) then he needs to quit the intelligence work. Like now! It's getting so frustrating and annoying and all because they want to character to do more than be a husband and father and college professor!

 

I fear for what the cliffhanger will be. Hoping it'll have something to do with the remaining nuclear material, but I'm afraid it's going to be either something about their marriage or something about Henry. And either might end up defeating the purpose of a cliffhanger and turn people away rather than make them want to watch again next season. I know I'd hate a marriage cliffhanger and the spoilers I'm reading about Henry are kind of annoying.

Why is he getting all the emotional stuff? Bess was in an explosion last year, had PTSD for one episode then we got one where she was shown at her therapist and that was it. And Henry gets a whole season's worth of emotional torment and aftermath.

Edited by CheshireCat

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I don't want to bet but I fear that's going to happen. And apparently, they're going to attend couple's therapy in the episode afterwards. http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/04/cbs-upcoming-episode-press-releases_8.html  Seriously? I know I sound like a broken record but if Henry can't separate his personal feelings from his job and keeps blaming Bess (which I assume is going to happen since they're fighting over Talia in the episode before) then he needs to quit the intelligence work. Like now! It's getting so frustrating and annoying and all because they want to character to do more than be a husband and father and college professor!

 

I fear for what the cliffhanger will be. Hoping it'll have something to do with the remaining nuclear material, but I'm afraid it's going to be either something about their marriage or something about Henry. And either might end up defeating the purpose of a cliffhanger and turn people away rather than make them want to watch again next season. I know I'd hate a marriage cliffhanger and the spoilers I'm reading about Henry are kind of annoying.

Why is he getting all the emotional stuff? Bess was in an explosion last year, had PTSD for one episode then we got one where she was shown at her therapist and that was it. And Henry gets a whole season's worth of emotional torment and aftermath.

Bess had a hard time with her PTSD issue after the death experience she faced during the coup event in Iran, but Henry was very supportive. He helped her to get through it and he was very understanding given her strange outbursts at him over Jason's security. You would hope that the writers are not moving towards some kind of marriage angst just to create contrived drama. So far, Henry has shown to be out of his element with the task group. It presents that Bess might have done some stealth planning to get him in the group, but it seems her plan might have backfired if the couple ends up in therapy over his involvement.

Edited by VinceW

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VinceW, on 09 Apr 2016 - 12:51 AM, said:VinceW, on 09 Apr 2016 - 12:51 AM, said:

Bess had a hard time with her PTSD issue after the death experience she faced during the coup event in Iran, but Henry was very supportive. He helped her to get through it and he was very understanding given her strange outbursts at him over Jason's security. You would hope that the writers are not moving towards some kind of marriage angst just to create contrived drama. So far, Henry has shown to be out of his element with the task group. It presents that Bess might have done some stealth planning to get him in the group, but it seems her plan might have backfired if the couple ends up in therapy over his involvement.

 

I still don't think that it would be too big a jump to think Bess orchestrated the group to get Henry in - too many variables she wouldn't have any control over - however, he definitely is way in over his head and I wish they would address it and not pretend he wasn't. From the spoilers, they don't seem to have the intention to and seem intent on implying that that's all right up his alley.

Yes, Henry was very supportive. My point was that Henry has been having troubles ever since Ivan committed suicide. He's definitely had a tough year, yet it seems imbalanced again that he gets a whole season of an emotional arc whereas Bess gets a couple of episodes to deal with her PTSD.

 

Also, the spoiler that he's upset over Talia kind of reminded me about Bess' brother and that conversation they had at the end. I kind of think Bess should tell Henry the same - that she sees every horrible angle and doesn't have the comfort to sit on an isolated island. It's nice that Henry is so invested in the individual, hell, I would be, too, however, Bess doesn't have the comfort. She has to make decisions which are best for a whole country, not an individual. I wouldn't want to do her job and probably would be as incapable of doing it as Henry, but that's why I'm not anywhere near anything Henry's doing right now.

 

As far as the marriage angst is concerned - I'm not sure if it's contrived. The spoilers we know seem to be consistent with the characters - the Scene we had in S1, Ep 3 when Bess was concerned about being someone Henry can't be with anymore, then Henry being angry with Dalton and Bess when they gave up Dimitri, Henry having problems handling the "not get personally involved" angle of the job. But that is why I keep saying he's not up for it. It's a job during which you have to look at the bigger picture. As Bess has said, she needs to weight the life of an individual against the Greater Good. I'm not sure Henry has a trouble with the concept itself - after all, he was fighting in a war and he has known for years that those were the kind of decisions Bess had to make in the CIA. I don't know if that is what is troubling him now though (because he's suddenly confronted with it and it's not as easy to not think about it anymore) or if it's simply that he seems to keep blaming Bess for making those decisions/being angry at her for Dimitri's death.  

 

I just hate that they're going down this road in general. It seems that they're willing to sacrifice a lot just to give one character a story which isn't even popular or all that credible/the way the character is excelling at it isn't even all that credible.

Edited by CheshireCat

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I still don't think that it would be too big a jump to think Bess orchestrated the group to get Henry in - too many variables she wouldn't have any control over - however, he definitely is way in over his head and I wish they would address it and not pretend he wasn't. From the spoilers, they don't seem to have the intention to and seem intent on implying that that's all right up his alley.

Yes, Henry was very supportive. My point was that Henry has been having troubles ever since Ivan committed suicide. He's definitely had a tough year, yet it seems imbalanced again that he gets a whole season of an emotional arc whereas Bess gets a couple of episodes to deal with her PTSD.

 

Also, the spoiler that he's upset over Talia kind of reminded me about Bess' brother and that conversation they had at the end. I kind of think Bess should tell Henry the same - that she sees every horrible angle and doesn't have the comfort to sit on an isolated island. It's nice that Henry is so invested in the individual, hell, I would be, too, however, Bess doesn't have the comfort. She has to make decisions which are best for a whole country, not an individual. I wouldn't want to do her job and probably would be as incapable of doing it as Henry, but that's why I'm not anywhere near anything Henry's doing right now.

 

As far as the marriage angst is concerned - I'm not sure if it's contrived. The spoilers we know seem to be consistent with the characters - the Scene we had in S1, Ep 3 when Bess was concerned about being someone Henry can't be with anymore, then Henry being angry with Dalton and Bess when they gave up Dimitri, Henry having problems handling the "not get personally involved" angle of the job. But that is why I keep saying he's not up for it. It's a job during which you have to look at the bigger picture. As Bess has said, she needs to weight the life of an individual against the Greater Good. I'm not sure Henry has a trouble with the concept itself - after all, he was fighting in a war and he has known for years that those were the kind of decisions Bess had to make in the CIA. I don't know if that is what is troubling him now though (because he's suddenly confronted with it and it's not as easy to not think about it anymore) or if it's simply that he seems to keep blaming Bess for making those decisions/being angry at her for Dimitri's death.  

 

I just hate that they're going down this road in general. It seems that they're willing to sacrifice a lot just to give one character a story which isn't even popular or all that credible/the way the character is excelling at it isn't even all that credible.

The contrived drama scenario would come about if the writers push Henry's story line to the point where further actions on his part present as some kind of obsession which seems unlikely. It is interesting that there has been little discussion between them about how both of them working in tandem against terrorists can effect the younger children especially if Henry is put in real danger working as an operative. Doing things for the 'greater good' can become an obsession as well especially for those in power (greater good vs. in good conscience). Viewers are not going to tune in every week for very long just to watch them fighting over his job and ethics issues (myself included).

Edited by VinceW

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VinceW, on 10 Apr 2016 - 1:44 PM, said:

The contrived drama scenario would come about if the writers push Henry's story line to the point where further actions on his part present as some kind of obsession and it makes him look somewhat as if a broken person. It is interesting that there has been little discussion between them about how both of them working in tandem against terrorists can effect the younger children especially if Henry is put in real danger working as an operative. Doing things for the 'greater good' can become an obsession as well which might explain why both agree the need for therapy (greater good vs. good conscience). Viewers are not going to tune in every week for very long just to watch them fighting over his job and ethics issues (myself included).

 

From the spoilers, I'd say the reason they seek out a therapist is because of Dimitri. He comes up again in the next episode, as well as his sister Talia and in the episode after that, they're said to go to therapy. So, that sounds like they need to address unresolved issues and I would go as far as saying, they need to address issues which go all the way back to S1 when she was having doubts if she was becoming a woman Henry couldn't be with anymore.

Henry said in Ep 11 that he understood that Bess made the right call on an intellectual level. Since it comes up again, I'd say, he still hasn't been able to make peace with it. If that were the only "problem" then I'd say, it would be enough if he sought out a therapist. However, that they are seeking out a therapist together sounds like he's having trouble with her making that decision in the first place - hence, having trouble in general with the decision she needs to make.

 

One could argue that it's contrived - why does it all of a sudden bother him when he seems to be aware that Bess had knowledge about torture/was passively involved in torture and he didn't seem to have an issue with that. So, I guess the suddenness can be explained with the fact that he was directly involved this time around. And I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and accept that that's the reason why he's bothered this time around until they make their marriage worse than requiring therapy and go down a road that I sincerely hope they're not going down.

 

I do think they've already touched the obsessive part. He was pretty much obsessed about going back to DIA and dismissive of Bess' concerns, understandable in that moment, but then he later accused Bess and that was completely unnecessary and uncalled for in my opinion and unrational. He also obsessed over trying to figure out what went wrong when the other agent was blown up in Ep 16. And I'd say there's an obsessive part in still being hung up on Dimitri.

I like Henry for who he is, but I can only repeat, I think this inability to accept that decisions have to be made and let go of what then happens makes him an unsuitable intelligence officer. It's not good for the job and not good for him either.

I loved the moment when he quit DIA. And I sincerely hope we get another moment like that once this Murphy Station thing is over.

 

And I agree, I certainly don't want to see a show which is all about Henry and his ethics. I like his ethics, but not enough to have that push the actual stories about Bess and her staff and the State Department into the background.

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From the spoilers, I'd say the reason they seek out a therapist is because of Dimitri. He comes up again in the next episode, as well as his sister Talia and in the episode after that, they're said to go to therapy. So, that sounds like they need to address unresolved issues and I would go as far as saying, they need to address issues which go all the way back to S1 when she was having doubts if she was becoming a woman Henry couldn't be with anymore.

Henry said in Ep 11 that he understood that Bess made the right call on an intellectual level. Since it comes up again, I'd say, he still hasn't been able to make peace with it. If that were the only "problem" then I'd say, it would be enough if he sought out a therapist. However, that they are seeking out a therapist together sounds like he's having trouble with her making that decision in the first place - hence, having trouble in general with the decision she needs to make.

 

One could argue that it's contrived - why does it all of a sudden bother him when he seems to be aware that Bess had knowledge about torture/was passively involved in torture and he didn't seem to have an issue with that. So, I guess the suddenness can be explained with the fact that he was directly involved this time around. And I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and accept that that's the reason why he's bothered this time around until they make their marriage worse than requiring therapy and go down a road that I sincerely hope they're not going down.

 

I do think they've already touched the obsessive part. He was pretty much obsessed about going back to DIA and dismissive of Bess' concerns, understandable in that moment, but then he later accused Bess and that was completely unnecessary and uncalled for in my opinion and unrational. He also obsessed over trying to figure out what went wrong when the other agent was blown up in Ep 16. And I'd say there's an obsessive part in still being hung up on Dimitri.

I like Henry for who he is, but I can only repeat, I think this inability to accept that decisions have to be made and let go of what then happens makes him an unsuitable intelligence officer. It's not good for the job and not good for him either.

I loved the moment when he quit DIA. And I sincerely hope we get another moment like that once this Murphy Station thing is over.

 

And I agree, I certainly don't want to see a show which is all about Henry and his ethics. I like his ethics, but not enough to have that push the actual stories about Bess and her staff and the State Department into the background.

Point taken about his DIA obsession, but so far, it has been more subtle and not to the point where he would put his life at risk without any regard for his children. As you suggest about the spoiler, Henry tells Elizabeth he can’t talk to her which indicates that her submissive response to the aborted Dmitri extraction still troubles him. Dalton reacted too quickly to the Russian president fake out about using nuclear arms against Ukraine. The deal that was worked out between the two countries was ridiculous given the leverage they had on the Russian president. Imagine, if Henry finds out about the goods Elizabeth had on Maria Ostrov and she still supported the Dalton choice to abandon the asset. The decision to abort the Dmitri pickup when he was within a few yards of the team made little sense given the many times Elizabeth has used unlimited resources to save individual CIA assets overseas. It is understandable that Henry was upset that the US would give up an asset that easily which meant for certain Russian reprisal. I was disappointed that Bess accepted the ‘greater good’ argument from Dalton so easily and I guess that is what has been troubling Henry to the point that he might be honestly questioning her moral compass now since a similar situation presents itself over the safety of sister Talia.

Edited by VinceW

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I was disappointed that Bess accepted the ‘greater good’ argument from Dalton so easily and I guess that is what has been troubling Henry to the point that he might be honestly questioning her moral compass now since a similar situation presents itself over the safety of sister Talia.

Agreed. I was pretty disappointed in Elizabeth there too. I know it wasn't her call, and I get the "greater good argument." But she didn't even try. She and Dalton just sold Dimitri out on the spot. I was surprised by her acquiescence, actually, given her own ties to the CIA. But she's on a different side now. That's the thing. In many ways, she and Henry are on opposing sides of govt with him in intelligence and her in the executive branch. Maybe that was something they didn't think about...I don't know. But I don't really blame Henry for being angry with her. In the case of how things went down with Dimitri, I think Elizabeth was wrong and Henry was right. She's the one who should feel tremendous guilt, I think. That she doesn't is troubling, especially for a guy who is an ethics/religion professor.

And thing is, Elizabeth has gone here before. "Technically" torture was legal when she did it, she told Stevie. "Technically," turning over Dimitri was the right call. In reality, though, both were pretty awful choices.

Edited by madam magpie

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Agreed. I was pretty disappointed in Elizabeth there too. I know it wasn't her call, and I get the "greater good argument." But she didn't even try. She and Dalton just sold Dimitri out on the spot. I was surprised by her acquiescence, actually, given her own ties to the CIA. But she's on a different side now. That's the thing. In many ways, she and Henry are on opposing sides of govt with him in intelligence and her in the executive branch. Maybe that was something they didn't think about...I don't know. But I don't really blame Henry for being angry with her. In the case of how things went down with Dimitri, I think Elizabeth was wrong and Henry was right. She's the one who should feel tremendous guilt, I think. That she doesn't is troubling, especially for a guy who is an ethics/religion professor.

And thing is, Elizabeth had gone here before. "Technically" torture was legal when she did it, she told Stevie. "Technically," turning over Dimiti was the right call. In reality, though, both were pretty awful choices.

Great post. I totally agree. I think Henry would have been more understanding if Bess had explained her position when they first argued in the hotel room when Henry confronted her after he realized the reason behind the aborted extraction. She was mostly silent about it. In contrast, she spends a lot of time with the wives of agents comforting them during periods when their husbands are in real danger overseas and status unknown. Recall in Season 1 when Bess used Henry's position as a professor for a student grade fix as a means to negotiate a CIA agent release. Her choices at times seem dismissive of Henry ("Please don't make me argue with a religious professor"). Maybe Henry's outburst in the spoiler, gets her to realize that she has some real issues with her policy positions.  Dalton and Elizabeth's past decisions have cost lives in both season 1 and season 2.

Edited by VinceW
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Great post. I totally agree. I think Henry would have been more understanding if Bess had explained her position when they first argued in the hotel room when Henry confronted her after he realized what had happened to Dmitri. She was mostly silent about it. In contrast, she spent a lot of time with the wives of agents comforting them during the period when their husbands were in real danger overseas and status unknown. Recall in Season 1 when Bess used Henry's position as a professor for a student grade fix as means to negotiate a CIA agent release. Her choices at times seem dismissive of Henry ("Please don't make me argue with a religious professor"). I noticed that the therapist is in the next episode, but the couple therapy comes about in a later episode. Maybe Henry's outburst in the spoiler, gets her to realize that she has some real issues with her policy positions. Dalton and Elizabeth's past decisions have cost a lot of lives in both season 1 and season 2.

That's right! I'd forgotten about Elizabeth trying to promise away an A for Olga. (That was her name, right?)

I like the gender role reversal when it comes to ethics too. Stereotypically, women are supposed to be the moral sex. And that's not to say Elizabeth isn't ethical. She is, but she does seem much quicker to make a questionably ethical move than Henry does. And that actually does make sense to me, given his history as a religion professor and hers in the CIA. I like the iffy ethics on this show and the hard choices Bess has to make. I mean, I'm a pretty diehard liberal who was 100% against the Bush-era torture, and even I was on the verge of "Waterboard the jackass!" when that terrorist guy was facing off with Elizabeth in the flashback. I get why it's hard to be in politics and maintain an ethical code, I get the huge responsibility Elizabeth would feel to the greater good, and I'm enjoying watching Elizabeth and Henry struggle with that. I do hope we see them struggle together, though. I don't want some estrangement to end the season. They're so committed. I don't buy either of them walking out. I'd believe one of them offers to quit, though.

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That's right! I'd forgotten about Elizabeth trying to promise away an A for Olga. (That was her name, right?)

I like the gender role reversal when it comes to ethics too. Stereotypically, women are supposed to be the moral sex. And that's not to say Elizabeth isn't ethical. She is, but she does seem much quicker to make a questionably ethical move than Henry does. And that actually does make sense to me, given his history as a religion professor and hers in the CIA. I like the iffy ethics on this show and the hard choices Bess has to make. I mean, I'm a pretty diehard liberal who was 100% against the Bush-era torture, and even I was on the verge of "Waterboard the jackass!" when that terrorist guy was facing off with Elizabeth in the flashback. I get why it's hard to be in politics and maintain an ethical code, I get the huge responsibility Elizabeth would feel to the greater good, and I'm enjoying watching Elizabeth and Henry struggle with that. I do hope we see them struggle together, though. I don't want some estrangement to end the season. They're so committed. I don't buy either of them walking out. I'd believe one of them offers to quit, though.

I assume you mean quit the job and not the marriage. I too hope nothing happens that ends in an estrangement because that would be another case of the writers trying to get too clever with the story telling. IMO

Edited by VinceW
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I assume you mean quit the job and not the marriage. I too hope nothing happens that ends in an estrangement because that would be another case of the writers trying to get too clever with the story telling. IMO

Oh yes! Job, not marriage. My guess is that it would be Elizabeth, but obviously she won't...or there's no show. What I want is for her and Henry to work together, rather than be on opposing sides, and I still hope that's where we're going. I feel like there's enough conflict inherent to the show; they don't need to be at odds.

But having them be estranged would be about the least clever thing the writers could do, don't you think? What a cliche. I like the stable, grounded, loving marriage. I like it a lot, and I know I'm not the only one.

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If you think about it, Henry's got a pretty lousy record as a spy: the chess piece botch, losing Dmitri AND the guy who shot himself, Dmitri's sister going back to Russia, and getting a teammate blowed up real good. While it would cause him to whiten with righteous anger, I suspect the reason he's been allowed to screw up so often is nepotism. (He'd hate that).

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But having them be estranged would be about the least clever thing the writers could do, don't you think? What a cliche. I like the stable, grounded, loving marriage. I like it a lot, and I know I'm not the only one.

The only thing more cliche would be for Elizabeth to have a surprise pregnancy.

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The only thing more cliche would be for Elizabeth to have a surprise pregnancy.

Not to mention biologically (and statistically) nearly impossible. They could foist that on Stevie, though. (Please don't, show!)

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If you think about it, Henry's got a pretty lousy record as a spy: the chess piece botch, losing Dmitri AND the guy who shot himself, Dmitri's sister going back to Russia, and getting a teammate blown up real good. While it would cause him to whiten with righteous anger, I suspect the reason he's been allowed to screw up so often is nepotism. (He'd hate that).

The DIA provided the replicated chess piece to Henry and he successfully integrated the fake piece on the chess board without notice as directed by his handler. It was not until later that the foreign professor realized that it contained a listening device. He later contacted Henry seeking protection for his son in exchange for details on the sarin gas once he realized that he was under surveillance. Henry was contacted for the mission because of his academic affiliation with the foreign professor. The DIA recovered the sarin gas with Henry’s help which was the primary mission.

 

Henry recruited Dmitri for the Russian mission, but his death was not his fault. The DIA wanted to recruit another solider as an asset based on sexual orientation, but Henry pushed back on Jane because he felt it was not morally right. Henry did come up with the idea to use Talia, the ill sister, as leverage against Dmitri, but he is still obviously troubled over it. The DIA agreed to get Talia out of the country at Henry's insistence, but she declined because Henry was unable to confirm Dmitri’s status and location. Henry never imagined that the US government would give up an asset that easily which meant a certain Russian reprisal. The decision to abort the Dmitri pickup given that he was within a few yards of the team was Dalton’s decision. Elizabeth’s submissive response about the decision has obviously been troubling Henry to the point that he might be honestly questioning her moral compass now since a similar situation presents itself over the safety of Talia in the next episode.

 

Russell Jackson was the one who assigned Mimi the interrogation task. She was an experienced and trained negotiator. She was sent into a dangerous zone with little area intelligence. Henry made a quick assessment of the informant credibility which in the end was correct.

 

The entire task force story line has a lot of flaws, but it is being held together by the Jane Fellows character. Henry is out of his element as an intelligence consultant, but he is working with people in government who operate, at times, with little conscience under the cover of the ‘greater good’ including his wife the Secretary of State.

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As you suggest about the spoiler, Henry tells Elizabeth he can’t talk to her which indicates that her submissive response to the aborted Dmitri extraction still troubles him. Dalton reacted too quickly to the Russian president fake out about using nuclear arms against Ukraine. The deal that was worked out between the two countries was ridiculous given the leverage they had on the Russian president.

 

Yes, but as they pointed out, it was all circumstantial. They drew conclusions based on what they had found but they were unable to find the "smoking gun" which I believe they did because that meant Dalton couldn't risk getting into a situation in which he might have to lay the cards on the table. He didn't have any actual proof. He had pieces of a puzzle (or rather Bess had) which could be interpreted one way but they could also be interpreted as coincidence. Maybe what they had could have persuaded the Russian public or maybe it would have been spun into the Americans slandering the Russians. After all, Russia found out about Air Force One, so there is no way Dalton and Bess could have predicted how the Russian public would react if they released what they had found about Ostrova killing her husband.

 

 

Imagine, if Henry finds out about the goods Elizabeth had on Maria Ostrov and she still supported the Dalton choice to abandon the asset. The decision to abort the Dmitri pickup when he was within a few yards of the team made little sense given the many times Elizabeth has used unlimited resources to save individual CIA assets overseas.

 

Well, as Henry said, they just had to open the door and I believe Dimitri could have jumped in and they would have been gone before the Russians got there. Also, there's the question how the Russians got there so quickly when it looks like the pick-up and the negotiations happened at the same time.

 

It is understandable that Henry was upset that the US would give up an asset that easily which meant for certain Russian reprisal. I was disappointed that Bess accepted the ‘greater good’ argument from Dalton so easily and I guess that is what has been troubling Henry to the point that he might be honestly questioning her moral compass now since a similar situation presents itself over the safety of sister Talia.

 

 

What was she supposed to do though? Challenge her President in front of a power hungry President of another country who thought the US was weak anyway? The only thing she could have done in that situation would have been to quit - after the fact - but the outcome would still have been the same for Dimitri.

 

madam magpie, on 12 Apr 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

Agreed. I was pretty disappointed in Elizabeth there too. I know it wasn't her call, and I get the "greater good argument." But she didn't even try. She and Dalton just sold Dimitri out on the spot. I was surprised by her acquiescence, actually, given her own ties to the CIA.

 

But Dalton pointed out that she had to weigh individual harm against greater good many times during her time at the CIA. So, this was really nothing new to her. More of a reminder really, that sometimes there have to be sacrifices.

 

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But she's on a different side now. That's the thing. In many ways, she and Henry are on opposing sides of govt with him in intelligence and her in the executive branch. Maybe that was something they didn't think about...I don't know. But I don't really blame Henry for being angry with her. In the case of how things went down with Dimitri, I think Elizabeth was wrong and Henry was right. She's the one who should feel tremendous guilt, I think. That she doesn't is troubling, especially for a guy who is an ethics/religion Professor.

 

I don't think either was right or wrong. What I love about this show is that it's kind of made me realize that politics isn't just black and white but mostly grey and that often there's a bigger picture we probably don't see.

I don't find it troubling that Bess doesn't feel guilty. She can't feel guilty, not in the kind of job that she has. And what should she feel guilty about? That Dalton sacrificed an individual for peace? Maybe war between the US and Russia wouldn't have happened but the war between Ukraine and Russia would have continued and the US was already involved and they had no chance of pulling out without letting Ukraine fall to Russia and who knows what that would have sparked in Ostrova. So, it wasn't just about a nuclear threat, it was about so much more.

 

 

VinceW, on 12 Apr 2016 - 11:46 PM, said:

Great post. I totally agree. I think Henry would have been more understanding if Bess had explained her position when they first argued in the hotel room when Henry confronted her after he realized the reason behind the aborted extraction. She was mostly silent about it.

 

I was wondering about that, too, and why she didn't tell him that it was Dalton's choice and take a more active role. It feels like she was shouldering the blame - yes, she needs to be of Dalton's opinion in public, however, she didn't need to be with Henry. And as I said, I think her only choice would have been to quit. Nothing else seemed possible.

Maybe though that was her choice of expressing her guilt about it. Shouldering the blame and not explaining her position to Henry and just taking is anger does feel like she was punishing herself.

 

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In contrast, she spends a lot of time with the wives of agents comforting them during periods when their husbands are in real danger overseas and status unknown. Recall in Season 1 when Bess used Henry's position as a professor for a student grade fix as a means to negotiate a CIA agent release. Her choices at times seem dismissive of Henry ("Please don't make me argue with a religious professor"). Maybe Henry's outburst in the spoiler, gets her to realize that she has some real issues with her policy positions.  Dalton and Elizabeth's past decisions have cost lives in both season 1 and season 2.

 

I don't think she was dismissive of Henry but knew she wouldn't win an argument about ethics if he started one (and maybe even that she would cave if he started one).

 

 

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I like the iffy ethics on this show and the hard choices Bess has to make.

 

I don't really consider the show's ethics iffy. Just, as I said, a reminder that politics isn't black and white. And probably not just politics but a lot of leader positions. I felt that Dalton's speech at the end of Unity Node summed it up pretty good. That they had to shoulder the blame as best as they could and lead as best as they could. Just like I felt it was a pretty good description when Bess was talking to her brother about her not having the luxury of being on an island. I think that we, as every day citizens, usually have a tendency to take on that island view. We don't see every angle, we just see one or two. And we judge based on that and I feel that the show shows us all of the angles and I find that it makes it a lot more difficult to take a right/wrong position because it's just not simple and each decision made has consequences.

And I agree on the role reversal. Pretty much everything is role reversal on the show.

 

 

madam magpie, on 13 Apr 2016 - 12:54 AM, said:

But having them be estranged would be about the least clever thing the writers could do, don't you think? What a cliche. I like the stable, grounded, loving marriage. I like it a lot, and I know I'm not the only one.

 

I'm holding on to the fact that everyone has praised how much they love that Bess and Henry have a working marriage... (and as a Castle fan I just suffered through one very disheartening break-up so I really, really hope I won't have to suffer through another.) And the fact that they're going to therapy gives me a little bit of hope.

 

And lastly, here's the synopsis for the season finale http://www.cbs.com/shows/2016-finales/photos/1006040/all-of-the-season-finale-and-premiere-dates-you-need-to-know/106036/madam-secretary-season-2-finale-airs-on-sunday-may-8-at-8-7c-/

My first thought was, Dalton probably wants Henry to become Sec of State (which means I've become more distrustful of the showrunners than I realized), my second thought was that this turnover is getting ridiculous. So, they had one Sec of State who was killed, replaced him with Bess, one Attorney General in S1, another one in the S2 premiere, a CIA director who planned a coup and was replaced by one who got fired just after he started, a National Security Advisor who resigned and was replaced by one who was forced to resign and now Dalton wants to replace Bess? As I said, it's getting ridiculous and I would assume that if that happened in real life it would give the impression of an instable government and maybe a President who has temper tantrums and fires everyone whenever they say something he doesn't like. It's certainly not someone I would re-elect.

I wonder if the other thing means that Dimitri could still be alive after all.

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I'm most horrified that Stevie and Jareth get engaged. He's totally some kind of spy working Stevie for nefarious purposes. I mean...right?? Then again, maybe this will be the moment where Stevie says "but you got married at my age" when her mother objects...because you KNOW Elizabeth will object.

As for the CIA and hard choices, sure. But selling out an asset...without really even objecting? I think that's a stretch. The administration would do that, I have no doubt, but I think the CIA would have more loyalty to their own. Plus their entire operation is built on assets. They can't just sell those people off to the highest bidder.

Regarding the iffy ethics, I absolutely think we're seeing those. Politics is full of iffy ethics. That's not mutually exclusive from "we don't live on an island." The iffy ethics happen because they don't live on an island and have to make lots of tough calls. I like that Elizabeth makes choices that many of us would consider immoral on their face. I believe she'd have to do that.

I don't mind all the shake-ups. It's just drama for TV. I suspect the Secretary of State doesn't put down coups and nuclear threats every day either. Plus, Bess can't be replaced. Her job is the title of the show.

Edited by madam magpie

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I'm most horrified that Stevie and Jareth get engaged. He's totally some kind of spy working Stevie for nefarious purposes. I mean...right?? Then again, maybe this will be the moment where Stevie says "but you got married at my age" when her mother objects...because you KNOW Elizabeth will object.

As for the CIA and hard choices, sure. But selling out an asset...without really even objecting? I think that's a stretch. The administration would do that, I have no doubt, but I think the CIA would have more loyalty to their own. Plus their entire operation is built on assets. They can't just sell those people off to the highest bidder.

Regarding the iffy ethics, I absolutely think we're seeing those. Politics is full of iffy ethics. That's not mutually exclusive from "we don't live on an island." The iffy ethics happen because they don't live on an island and have to make lots of tough calls. I like that Elizabeth makes choices that many of us would consider immoral on their face. I believe she'd have to do that.

I don't mind all the shake-ups. It's just drama for TV. I suspect the Secretary of State doesn't put down coups and nuclear threats every day either. Plus, Bess can't be replaced. Her job is the title of the show.

Agreed. The decision about Dmitri should have been principle over policy especially for two people (Dalton and Elizabeth) who worked in the CIA. Her submissive response to the situation troubled Henry given his background as a Marine combatant who is driven by the pledge to never leave a solder behind. His outburst while arguing with her in the next episode proclaiming to be unable to talk to her over the safety of Talia portends that he still questions her moral compass. The government used the sister illness to force Dmitri into a risky assignment which was harsh enough, but to now abandon Talia would be cruel.

 

President Dalton gave in over the nuclear threat too easily. He should have called her bluff. The Russian president, Pavel Ostrov,  was popular with many of his generals and the public at large. Once the information got out to the Russian military and the public about his possible murder by the wife, it seems likely that there would be repercussions against her from loyalists in the regime given how quickly things changed once her replacement took control and he rejected further bloodshed.

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madam magpie, on 16 Apr 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:madam magpie, on 16 Apr 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:

I'm most horrified that Stevie and Jareth get engaged. He's totally some kind of spy working Stevie for nefarious purposes. I mean...right?? Then again, maybe this will be the moment where Stevie says "but you got married at my age" when her mother objects...because you KNOW Elizabeth will object.

 

 

Yeah, I don't know if we get a "resolution" to the engagement but I was thinking that it'll definitely shock Bess and Henry and that they'll either object in this episode or in the next season. And I'd love if that would clear up some of the stuff we were talking about about when Bess and Henry got married/if they really got married that young. (I mean, unless they suddenly age Bess, they kind of have to have done...)

 

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 As for the CIA and hard choices, sure. But selling out an asset...without really even objecting? I think that's a stretch. The administration would do that, I have no doubt, but I think the CIA would have more loyalty to their own. Plus their entire operation is built on assets. They can't just sell those people off to the highest bidder.

 

 

But who could have objected to selling Dimitri out? Bess was the only other person in the room and I still don't think she could have objected. There are just some thing you don't do and that is openly disagree and get into an argument with your boss, the President, in front of another President. And it's not uncharacteristic of her either - there was the scene when Dalton wanted to vet the guy who was supposed to become Iran's President after the coup, Bess was opposed to vetting, Dalton wanted to vet, and there even was a moment when Bess seemed to "forget" that it wasn't Director Dalton but President Dalton she was talking to. And there's also the scene when Bess is against the Option 3 cyber attack and again, she tries but gets cut off. She was more insistent in both scenes, however, they took place in a very different setting and I think she was as insistent as she could be in that scene.

 

I'd also say, by the way, that she had difficulties with the decision she made/with the decisions she makes. She was basically admitting to it when she was talking to Dalton at the end of it. So, I think to say that she isn't troubled by it isn't quite fair. She just can't dwell on it or she couldn't do the job. I think we're sort of seeing both sides - we see Bess who's questioning choices but then has to let go of it and then we see Henry who can't let go of it (which I like about his character) and he dwells on it and it basically makes intelligence work not possible for him because it leads to conflicts in his personal life.

 

As far as intelligence officers being sold out - I guess, that's why Ostrova and Dalton agreed to both keep their secrets.

 

 

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Regarding the iffy ethics, I absolutely think we're seeing those. Politics is full of iffy ethics. That's not mutually exclusive from "we don't live on an island." The iffy ethics happen because they don't live on an island and have to make lots of tough calls. I like that Elizabeth makes choices that many of us would consider immoral on their face. I believe she'd have to do that.

 

 

I was thinking afterwards that we might have a different interpretation of "iffy". I don't know how I'd describe the ethics the show depicts but "iffy" wouldn't be my choice of words. I think if I look at it on a narrower scale then I'd consider some of Bess' choices immoral but if I look at it on a broader scale then I don't. There certainly are politicians who lose their conscious or don't have one but I don't think that Bess has been portrayed as that.

 

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I don't mind all the shake-ups. It's just drama for TV. I suspect the Secretary of State doesn't put down coups and nuclear threats every day either. Plus, Bess can't be replaced. Her job is the title of the show.

 

 

I don't mind the shake-ups either and I understand that it's probably about scheduling, which actor is available etc. and Sterling was pawn in the game anyway and only there to cause conflict. However, I still find it kind of ridiculous that they'd even go there because of all the turnover they've had and also because of how Dalton inisted Bess take the job in the pilot. He really, really wanted her for the job, revealed she was his first choice after the election, then Bess did all that she did, including going to Iran and almost getting herself killed, so after all that, if I were Bess and learned that Dalton wanted to replace me, I'd just tell him to go... you know the rest. But I'm not Bess and a lot less patient. ;-)

 

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Agreed. The decision about Dmitri should have been principle over policy especially for two people (Dalton and Elizabeth) who worked in the CIA. Her submissive response to the situation troubled Henry given his background as a Marine combatant who is driven by the pledge to never leave a solder behind. His outburst while arguing with her in the next episode proclaiming to be unable to talk to her over the safety of Talia portends that he still questions her moral compass. Can she be trusted to do the right thing in the situation with Talia since Bess is the one driving the decisions now and not Dalton? The government used the sister illness to force Dmitri into a risky assignment which was harsh enough, but to now abandon Talia would be cruel and I could understand if Henry decided to end the marriage over it.

 

I'm sorry but Henry isn't a saint either. It's highly unlikely that the bombs he dropped never hit any innocent civilians and that includes children. He might have always hit his target but he could never be sure who exactly was in that target area.

 

I'd probably understand if they were in a new relationship and that would be a reason for him to break up with her. But they've been married for 25 years. He knows her, he knows that she worked in the CIA, he knows she was passively involved in torture and I'm cure he can guess some of the rest. I'm sure Bess made choices which led to the death of people and innocent people. It's the job. You can't always guarantee everyone's safety, no matter how hard you try, and I doubt Henry pretends that this is the first time a choice Bess made led to the loss of an innocent life/of an asset. And above all, Henry loves her. So, no, I couldn't understand if he left her over it.

 

But again, I think that we're shown the differences between the former CIA operative and the religion professor - Henry goes in, uses Talia to recruit Dimitri and then promises Dimitri that he'd keep him safe. He clearly doesn't think ahead. He shouldn't have made this promise as it's not a promise you make and in retrospect he probably wouldn't have used Talia either. I'm not saying he's wrong or anything. I understand both Bess and Henry, because I can see the places they're coming from. I'm just saying that that's why you use trained people for the job and basically, I'd say that Dimitri's death is on DIA/Dalton. They decided to use Henry as a handler when he, apparently, went in without knowing what he's doing and he didn't even want to be a handler.

 

On a different note, what would Russia even want with Talia?

 

 

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President Dalton gave in over the nuclear threat too easily. He should have called her bluff. The husband Russian president was popular with both his generals and the public. Once the information got out to the Russian military and the public about the murder, it seems likely that there would be repercussions against her from loyalists in the regime given how quickly things changed once her replacement took control and he rejected further bloodshed.

 

 

Again, they didn't have indisputable proof linking her to the murders. It was all a bunch of lose threads and as much as I wish it would work like that, I think if you want to keep a President from going to war/if you want to make them sign a peace treaty they don't even want to sign, you need to have indisputable proof. People only belief what they want to belief. The General who Bess talked to after Ostrova died wanted war as much as Ostrova wanted it. She said, her Generals want war, so we can assume the rest of them want war, too. Ukraine also wanted war. Since they wanted war, I doubt they would have believed the Americans. Maybe if it had come from someone else. But not from the Americans under the circumstances.

 

Generally, I'm wondering if the "would you rather save one member of your family or five strangers" can be applied to how Henry and Bess view these things. Bess does everything she can to prevent war with Russia which also includes "saving" her family because by preventing war, she assures that they won't have to live through a war. Henry, on the other hand, thinks about the individual, in that case a stranger. I'm sure he wants to keep his children out of a war as much as Bess does, yet when it comes to weighing one thing against the other, his immediate response is that to side with the stranger. Doesn't make either "more right" than the other, just a thought I had.

Edited by CheshireCat

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But who could have objected to selling Dimitri out? Bess was the only other person in the room and I still don't think she could have objected. There are just some thing you don't do and that is openly disagree and get into an argument with your boss, the President, in front of another President. And it's not uncharacteristic of her either - there was the scene when Dalton wanted to vet the guy who was supposed to become Iran's President after the coup, Bess was opposed to vetting, Dalton wanted to vet, and there even was a moment when Bess seemed to "forget" that it wasn't Director Dalton but President Dalton she was talking to. And there's also the scene when Bess is against the Option 3 cyber attack and again, she tries but gets cut off. She was more insistent in both scenes, however, they took place in a very different setting and I think she was as insistent as she could be in that scene.

Elizabeth and President Dalton went off to the side in the same room with Maria Ostrov and Elizabeth did object, but Dalton used the 'team player' card on her which was so weak. The scene in the hotel room with Henry is different. She kept silent about it and she never offered him anything except 'for the greater good' as the reason for the decision when he was desperate to understand why they did it. When Henry went to Dalton about it, Dalton did not disagree with him. Henry was angry enough with her that he avoided talking with her for fear he would say something that could not be forgiven. If he didn't still have issues with her response about the extraction, he wouldn’t now be working on his own to keep her out of Russian hands.  Until one watches the argument between them in the proper context, it is hard to judge where the relationship is going as long as Henry works in the intelligence business. He needs to return to teaching. Elizabeth was a CIA analyst and not a CIA operative which is a big difference. She wrote policy papers and tracked dissidents. She never made decisions on her own that caused the lives of Americans.

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From TVInsider: Ask Matt

Matt Roush: Madam Secretary will be back for a third season, and it would be a very good thing if they never play the "Henry in danger" card ever again. The show's attempt to be both a lesser West Wing and a pale copy of Homefront (with its poorly developed terrorist exploits) hasn't really worked, although I'll concede it was a good twist to reveal that Dmitri, Henry's young Russian spy recruit, may actually be alive. I can understand the desire to make the show more exciting by putting the Secretary of State's husband in harm's way as part of a covert spy team, but it has become repetitive and maybe at times confusing, and I just don't buy Tim Daly (who I otherwise enjoy on the show) as the next Jack Bauer. But these are fixable problems, and with Good Wife soon to be missing from Sunday's lineup, the real challenge will be to shore up that night's schedule with another compatible drama. (Or, following a suggestion we discussed a while ago in this column, CBS could move The Amazing Race from Fridays back to Secretary's time period, move this show an hour later and finish the night with Elementary. That would be a pretty solid night of TV, although not as exception as when The Good Wife was its anchor.

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From CarterMatt.com:      May 29, 2016 Comments

CBS preparing for ‘Madam Secretary’ season 3 already; how?

One of the big announcements from CBS’ upfront presentation earlier this month is that with “The Good Wife” now over and done with (at least in its current form), there was a free spot at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time. In some ways, that’s prime network real estate. There are always a bunch of people watching TV at that time, and there’s a reason why shows like “Game of Thrones” and “The Walking Dead” commonly air there.

With that, CBS has decided to go ahead and move “Madam Secretary” to this spot. We’ve already chronicled some of the downsides to the move, especially when it comes to continuing to deal with football delays and also heavy competition. What we did not report about previously, though, is that the network is already getting its feet wet when it comes to testing the Tea Leoni series in this spot. The network is already starting to air repeats of “Madam Secretary” at 9:00 following “Undercover Boss” this summer, so if you’re looking for an indication as to how the show could fare, this is a starting point. It’s hard to really gauge new episodes based on repeats, but we can at least start to compare it to some of the other repeats for other shows on the schedule.

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8 minutes ago, VinceW said:

From CarterMatt.com:      May 29, 2016 Comments

...there was a free spot at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time...

With that, CBS has decided to go ahead and move “Madam Secretary” to this spot. We’ve already chronicled some of the downsides to the move, especially when it comes to continuing to deal with football delays and also heavy competition....

--and viewers falling asleep half way through.
Well, I guess CBS has too many successes, so they can afford to kill off a few. They gave away Supergirl.
Or maybe they're assuming Neilson homes and live streamers will at least turn on the show and then fall asleep with it still running--often not even beginning to air until 11 EST/10 CST (because of sports delays) on a school/work night?
I wish they'd given away Madam Secretary to a network that would treat it right.

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15 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

--and viewers falling asleep half way through.
Well, I guess CBS has too many successes, so they can afford to kill off a few. They gave away Supergirl.
Or maybe they're assuming Neilson homes and live streamers will at least turn on the show and then fall asleep with it still running--often not even beginning to air until 11 EST/10 CST (because of sports delays) on a school/work night?
I wish they'd given away Madam Secretary to a network that would treat it right.

That might be the case if the creator changes the show about Elizabeth from SoS to a VP candidate and the show becomes about a presidential election. I hope that Barbara Hall is smarter than to go in that direction. IMO

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