The Path - General Discussion

[formerlyfreedom]

A spot to ask questions about the show. Please note, spoil tag anything that may give away something in an episode, as people coming in may be at different spots in viewing.

[ToxicUnicorn]

Really the only part that bothers me so far is the blond's desperation about Eddie helping her.

 

This woman seemed to come out of nowhere, I had no context for her other than what she said.  How does she know Eddie?  Did Eddie ever tell her he would help her and then change his mind?  I must have missed something.

 

but the upstate NY roots are also part of Mormonism.

 

I did not know that.  Thanks!

[Guest]

Tithing, monetary donations, donations in kind (especially food,) bequests in wills, income from donated properties are all typical practices for all religions, not just cults. Much admired TV preachers in particular do much better than the likes of Bill and Felicia, who have just one home but no private plane. Cal may think he's hot stuff for being able to pay for his mother's retirement apartment after she got kicked out, but the Bakkers could afford an air conditioned dog house for the family pet. 

 

Meyerism is being portrayed as pretty moderate in the money grubbing department. I suspect that the producers are tacitly assuming the audience will automatically put socially acceptable religions in a different mental category, and use a double standard in looking at the Meyerists, though. 

 

All religions rely on a great deal of free labor, or nominally paid labor. I suspect Cal could make a lot more money selling used cars or insurance, or doing advertising or political consultancy, so even his may be considerably underpaid in a sense. Sarah, if she were to develop some ethics, could likely make a decent income as a psychologist or psychiatrist, so I imagine she too may be underpaid in this hypothetical view. One of the few things that comes any where near providing an objective difference between a religion and a cult is the intensity of exploitation of free labor. But Meyerism doesn't seem to be operating any boiler rooms, or Moonie-style sales ops, or sweat shops. They're gardening, not commercial farming, I think.

 

PS I think the series is evidently serious enough in its approach that it's cutting a little deeper than a thriller about EVIL cultists. And this is really pushing them up against the fact that religions and cults are not really different in any fundamental way. I mean, when did Mormonism turn from a cult into a religious denomination more respectable than Unitarians? (Or, in many quarters, than so-called liberal denominations?)

The US government allowed Mormons to have church status when they agreed to revise their policies on polygamy.  The Mormons later got more cred (or avoided more infamy) by reversing their policies on blacks.  Or more specifically by claiming they never allowed polygamy or disallowed black members.  Mormons now claim to be a Christian religion but that too is revisionist and was adopted for greater general acceptance.  The mainstream Christian religions do not recognize Mormonism as a Christian religion.

 

Theologians at the university I went to (ASU, which has no shortage of Mormons) say Mormonism has more in common with cults than traditional religions, so they don't teach it in religion courses.  

 

Sarah is a psychiatrist?   I figured all her counseling advice was just based on the ladder drivel and her own sense of self-righteousness.  

[lucindabelle]

Jersey girl here. A generator that size would only light up one room. You'd need an extension cord but not to every appliance. We all learned a lot about it during sandy. Pretty sure the one we had you could just plug in to outside plug.

[sjohnson]

Sarah is a psychiatrist?   I figured all her counseling advice was just based on the ladder drivel and her own sense of self-righteousness.  

Twelve step programs, which are so respectable judges commonly require them as part of a probationary sentence, are widely believed to be effective. Of course, they don't keep statistics, which helps this perception. At any rate, they come from the religious tradition, albeit a non-denominational one. Christian counseling, which is a thing, is also non-denominational. Dr. Steven Meyer I suspect incorporated genuine psychotherapeutic techniques into his ladder and I wouldn't be surprised if Sarah and her equivalents elsewhere didn't have as much formal training as many Christian counselors. 

 

It is common to try to portray religion as morality, but over and over one finds religion is about healing, medicine. Remember the phrase, "medicine man?" Given the advance of modern medicines in dealing with many ailments, the turn to religion for healing can often focus on emotional problems. They just get re-identified as spiritual problems. 

 

It seems to me that Sarah is about as effective as many counselors or twelve step program type therapists.

Edited April 17, 2016 by sjohnson

[sjohnson]

^^^All true about the nonsense in the incident. Also, the kid basically stole the generator, which no one seems to have noticed, which is odd. The show doesn't mind, of course. The thing about Hawk/Ashley is that it is, in my view, phony, sentimental romance unwisely jammed in. Ashley is so poorly drawn I have no idea whether she's sexually active or not, but she is social. Since she didn't get rent money from Hawk, it's a question why this girl is hanging with him, even on the down low. They haven't sold me on her really being interested in him, other than it's in the script.

Edited April 17, 2016 by sjohnson

[Guest]

Was she using twelve step principles or was that just an example?  I didn't notice, if she was.  I was just surprised you said she could be a psychiatrist on the outside.  That's a LOT of education.  I wondered if I missed some allusion to her having gone through medical school and all.  

[Madding crowd]

I don't think we have enough information to say she is some kind of MD. The fact that she has people hooked up to 'reading' machines and forces others to consume drugs that even the leader says are harmful, goes against true medical practices. I think her training is purely through the cult.

[sjohnson]

Oh, no, Sarah's not an MD. I think we are supposed to think that she could have been an effective therapist with orthodox credentials. The scene where she tells Freddy Ridge's parent he's lying I thought was clearly meant to show that. She's essentially a pupil of Meyer so far as the movement training goes. I'm pretty sure Meyer is supposed to be academically trained, that it's not a fake MD. Timothy Leary and John Lilly were professionally trained.

Edited April 17, 2016 by sjohnson

[babyPhat279]

I don't know if it's because Aaron Paul is so young looking, but it's hard for me to imagine him with a child who is in high school. I also think the kid looks more like Cal than Eddie. But I'm sure there won't be any kind of story like that because the wife is so into "unburdening" that she never could have kept a secret like that.

 

I'm betting there was some sort of sexual abuse in Cal's past, based on his actions around Mary. That poor girl needs massive therapy, they both do. I'm surprised her father is pursuing charges, wouldn't he be afraid she would tell more people about how he raised her?

[Dminches]

For a cult which is so big on unburdening its members, they are seem heavily burden. Each seems to have secrets they are hiding. Maybe this is realistic for this type of community.

[lucindabelle]

It makes no sense to me that the cult is so young and its founders have fond memories of the sixties yet don't want the kids to have sex or listen to rock and roll. I mean, there was negative music in the 60s too.

I don't thnk religion and cults are the same. They have some things in common. The degree to which a cult wants to take over your life and your time is just not the same as the way churches and synagogues look fof volunteers. Maybe it's the soft sell hard sell thing but it makes a difference. Been in both so coming from experience. Granted some denominations are clearly borderline. But to me, merely belonging to an organization where you pay yearly dues and join some committees is not cultish.

What's been so interesting to me in this series is I also go back and forth, cult, or just, idealistic 60s commune thing? I don't see anybody getting soaked for money... And a redeeming thing about cal was hating the hypocrisy of the wealthy donor. And then, UNLIKE Scientology, I liked how the two high ranking members were shocked that Miranda had been brought there against her will.

Of course, if alison is telling the truth that her husband was killed then yes, that's a cult,

[ToxicUnicorn]

The thing about Hawk/Ashley is that it is, in my view, phony, sentimental romance unwisely jammed in. Ashley is so poorly drawn I have no idea whether she's sexually active or not, but she is social. Since she didn't get rent money from Hawk, it's a question why this girl is hanging with him, even on the down low. They haven't sold me on her really being interested in him, other than it's in the script.

 

I relate to these two (at least, I understand these two) more than anything else that is going on.  Ashley feels like an outside because she is hiding the secret that her home life is precarious; she has found a confidante in Hawk who not only doesn't judge her but plays the white knight (standing guard outside the school showers for her).  Acceptance is attractive at that age, as well as gratitude.

 

I agree it's a standard adolescent love story, but given that they seem to be finding a piece of normalcy while being surrounded by judgmental bats**t crazy adults (something I still identify with), they have a bit of an underdog status that I can root for.  Also, I think Hawk is being played decently by his actor.  But - mileage may vary.

[ToxicUnicorn]

So far, I haven't taken on trying to sort out the religion v cult issue.  I'm too confused as it is -

 

I've been viewing it through the lens more of corporate culture, or even (dare I say) political cronyism.  That is, some people seem deeply invested in maintaining the power structure and controlling what others believe and how they behave.  Sitting around with a wire helmet on your head reminds me of having to go to meetings.  What do you do if you are Eddie and you have both feet planted on the inside but kind of wish you could get out?  To me, it's his struggles against his constraints, Cal's struggles to preserve order and get ahead, and Sarah's blind following of whatever that keep me somewhat interested.  (Although my interest is fading.)  This could be Amazon or the NSA.  All that's required is that the head of the organization thinks he's on a just mission and there is a struggle for power at the top.

 

Then again, I am usually the last one to find the religious subtext in anything, and I wish something would happen.

[Guest]

I don't know if it's because Aaron Paul is so young looking, but it's hard for me to imagine him with a child who is in high school. I also think the kid looks more like Cal than Eddie. But I'm sure there won't be any kind of story like that because the wife is so into "unburdening" that she never could have kept a secret like that.

 

I'm betting there was some sort of sexual abuse in Cal's past, based on his actions around Mary. That poor girl needs massive therapy, they both do. I'm surprised her father is pursuing charges, wouldn't he be afraid she would tell more people about how he raised her?

I thought that too about Aaron Paul's age but then remembered Sarah remarking that they married young.  The actor is 36 so he could easily have a 15 year old like Hawk.  He does just seem so Jesse Pinkman, still, though.  

 

I feel like Cal himself is sexually abusing Mary now.  He's using her infatuation with him for his own uses, in the group and sexually, without thought to her feelings.  

 

I hope Mary's dad gets some comeuppance for her abuse.  I'm guessing the cult will give her the strength to finally stand up to him and press charges, and he's not expecting that from his meek Mary.  

 

Theologians have specific criteria to determine what is a religion versus a cult.  I'm guessing government agencies do, too.  

[formerlyfreedom]

After Ashley’s family is evicted, Hawk brings them home for shelter. Faced with her son’s relationship to an IS, Sarah goes on a personal mission to answer questions from her past. Cal asserts his leadership and makes a bold political decision for The Movement.

 

 

 

[Whimsy]

I still don't get this "movement".  I want to know all the rules and restrictions and what is being promised to them. 

 

For a long-time married couple, Eddie and Sarah sure do make out and have sex a lot.  Not that that can't happen, but I've been married for over 20 years and we just don't make out like newly weds anymore. 

 

I don't get what Cal is actually doing.  He is opposed to the medicine that is the foundation of their movement?  Why even be a part of it anymore?  Why not make your own off-shoot? 

 

I'm still watching this, but I don't really understand what the hell is going on.

[numbnut]

I'm still watching this, but I don't really understand what the hell is going on.

 

Same here. At this point, I'm just watching because it's available at lunchtime.

[numbnut]

OK, i am over this show. Such promise with great male leads, but latest ep was WTF!??!?

 

I'm still waiting for Eddie to have a compelling goal. All I see is a guy who appreciates his family. Yawn.

[Guest]

I still don't get this "movement".  I want to know all the rules and restrictions and what is being promised to them. 

 

For a long-time married couple, Eddie and Sarah sure do make out and have sex a lot.  Not that that can't happen, but I've been married for over 20 years and we just don't make out like newly weds anymore. 

 

I don't get what Cal is actually doing.  He is opposed to the medicine that is the foundation of their movement?  Why even be a part of it anymore?  Why not make your own off-shoot? 

 

I'm still watching this, but I don't really understand what the hell is going on.

I think what's being promised them is the usual-- eternal salvation rather than the damnation everyone outside their movement is doomed to.  

 

I'm so tired of tv sex.  But I think that it at least has a part of the story right now for Eddie and Sarah.  They are reconnecting after the trauma of Eddie's non-affair, and he's recommitting to his family after his transgression of faith. 

 

I too don't get why Cal is against the medicine but I feel like that's also part of his story.  He sees Meyer dying and sees it as an opportunity to run things his way.  He probably envisions the cult becoming less nutty in the eyes of guys like Ridge, so it's more a business or legal decision for Cal, than an ethical or medical one?   

 

I wish it had more ... something... because I like the premise and actors.   It's just so slow.  And man, I can't stand Sarah.  Eddie and her seem to have very little in common.  She's an unbending zealot.  

 

Poor Hawk had his first acid trip at 6 weeks in utero.   I guess that's how he got his name.   Was she seeing a hawk in the sky while hallucinating?  

[Guest]

So what do you think they're trafficking from Peru... marijuana?   Maybe that's their main income source.  

[sjohnson]

Jason Kemp's travels strike me as likely enough to do with Meyer's illness. 

But if there is trafficking, I would nominate ayahuasca/yage.

[Guest]

But the agents said large changes in bank balances coincided with the trips.  

 

Why would someone go to Peru from NY once a week for 3 months to see a dying cult leader?  All these trips have got to be costing the cult a fortune, if they're not doing something income-producing there, wouldn't you think?  

 

Is there a big market for that yage in the US?  The cult only seems to use it in Peru.  

 

If Jason and Eddie both lost their faith from seeing the dying Meyer, it's kind of stupid for them not to move him elsewhere or quit sending their people right there. 

[sjohnson]

The bank balances I thought were dropping when Kemp went to Peru. I thought the FBI's idea was Kemp was withdrawing the money to buy the product in Peru, then bring it back. It would be sold, the balance rise again, make another buy. I suppose they could have been implying that the balance were rising after a trip to Peru, but I don't know how the drugs were purchased then, nor do I see how they could be sold so quickly and easily. 

 

Setting an advanced intensive care unit in a private building to take care of Meyer on the other hand would involve lots of equipment being transported and arrangements for professional services. I imagine lots of trips and money involved. Connecting that to Meyer is purely circumstantial of course. 

[Guest]

Oh, I don't know if they said which way the balances moved with which direction, just it fluctuated in tandem.  

 

Making 11 trips to Peru in 3 months is a weird way to arrange medical care for someone.  I would think their compadres that reside there could do that part?  I figure someone is running that Peru compound and probably not the people in New York.  

[Madding crowd]

I'm still watching because of the two male leads on the show; but I have no idea where this show is leading. I know I don't like smug Sara who feels superior to her husband. Cal actually seems like a decent guy, but this may be misleading. I don't know much about Eddie or his background (and what does he do all day?). Not sure I am understanding why Eddie had a vision of his wife and Cal kissing, why he and his wife have these super passionate scenes, or any of the sex scenes really. The actress that plays Mary has one facial express-extreme angst and that's all I got.

 

I feel like Cal was trying to do the right thing and not get further involved with the rich man's son, only to get beat up anyway. I still don't understand why having an acid trip turns your life around completely or why a pregnant woman who is supposed to be educated thought it would be alright to have an acid trip while she might be miscarrying. 

 

I understand these people 'work' for the cult, but I truly don't understand what the hell they do all day. I also really hate the idea that teenagers can't be normal teens and have normal teen emotions and the desire to do things like hang out with a pretty girl. Are they not allowed to have romantic feeling until they finish vows, then they just have sex with randoms? Do cult higher ups decide who has sex with whom? 

 

During the first episode, I thought the whole show would be about Eddie trying to investigate evil goings-on, but he isn't doing much of anything. 

[Guest]

Yeah, I find myself wishing Eddie would lose his faith some more so whoever killed Jason would come after him, and something would at least be happening.  Besides sex and Peru trips.  

 

So their home life... Does that other couple, the Asian woman's family, live with Eddie and Sara or ... what is the deal there?  They only seem to be around at meal times and when it's convenient to have extra judgmental eyes on Hawk...?

[babyPhat279]

They are cousins, no? I think the husband of the asian woman is Sarah's brother. So they have a lot of big family dinners. With extremely long versions of saying Grace. Honestly, seeing extended family all the time and all that prayer, I would have peaced out of that cult long ago.

 

And I think what the "movement" stands for is kind of like an emotional version of Plato's Theory of Forms, combined with plain old cult ideas of keeping their followers focused on the group and cut off from the rest of the world.

 

Anyway, I'm still enjoying the show. It would be interesting if we went back to Eddie's doubts, but the other storylines are moving along fast enough for my taste. After watching The Man in the High Castle, anything else seems to move quickly in comparison.

Edited April 24, 2016 by babyPhat279

[formerlyfreedom]

After Cal’s actions beckon a swarm of media attention to the compound, Sarah and the elders question his tactics. Cal discovers Eddie’s secret relationship with Alison. Feeling his control slip away, Cal spirals into a rage and leaves Sarah to address the congregation on her own.

[sjohnson]

When Eddie sees Cal beat up, refuses to connect that to what Sarah did in forcibly kidnapping a young man, then proceeds to make ultimatums about the mere possibility of violence to Cal...well, his jealousy has overtaken his empathy. That is why he is making so little of Ashley's advent and belittling Sarah's concerns. 

Sex in the backseat certainly isn't unheard of. But sex in a backseat in broad daylight usually has a friend for a look out. If you think that scene was unlikely for this alleged couple, you're right. 

There's nothing clear eyed about the resentment Ashley feels for Meyerism leaving her drunken father behind while the Meyerists move on to the Garden. This is pretty much true for all the religions with an afterlife. (And the reincarnationists religions generally condemn most people to dutiful miserable lives followed by rebirth into another dutiful miserable life, rather than satori/samadhi/nirvana.) And there's nothing honest about trying to cover up this specific complaint with the phrase "organized religion."  

Her beef is she wants to believe she's going to hear that she and her Dad will be reunited in Heaven and doesn't want to hear anything unpleasant. It reminds me of her remark that any religion that told people who they should like is stupid. First, the notion that maybe one shouldn't like bad people isn't obviously silly. Second, what's she's really saying is that relative status as determined by the peer group should decide who you like. She was in school with Hawk the whole time and it wasn't until finances demoted her and her family that she noticed Hawk.No doubt he was the bet bet in her new rank. She may not have gotten the rent out of him but she got a generator. And when push came to shove she gets a roof over her head for a little while. She's obviously planning on pushing Hawk to break with his family because she doesn't live in that kind of family and has no intention of starting now. 

Ashley not a terrible person when you realize that she's young and stupid and self-centered because other people haven't really been important to her and she's never had to take them into consideration, so she's terrible at it. Nor is Hawk a terrible person, being horny and inexperienced can be overwhelming. But the show does seem to want to pretend that Ashley and Hawk are the innocent eyes of youth that sees the truth, unlike the rheumy, clouded eyes of age. Not good.

Screwing the money works both way. What is $40 000 compared to her husband's life? She knew that taking that money would terribly compromise her case against the group. But she found the money more attractive. 

Abe should have noticed that his case against the Meyerists is really, really shaky. He knows there was almost certainly no trafficking. He knows that his two complainants, Mary's father and Jason Kemp's wife, have ulterior motives in resenting the group. 

The character most motivated by self-interest and the least insight into herself remains Sarah.  

 

[ElsbethTascioni]

I felt like this episode was weak compared to the first 4. I also thought that the backseat sex was totally unrealistic. In broad daylight? Come on. I thought the best part of the episode was Sarah breaking into her sisters apartment. It was sad, creepy, and uncomfortable.

[Madding crowd]

I agree the backseat sex was unrealistic. I don't think Ashley has ulterior motives though for being attracted to Hawk. Teenagers forge new relationships or crushes all the time, being sudden doesn't mean anything. Also found it hard to believe Sarah's sister left her door unlocked where anyone could walk right in.

I look forward to this show, yet I have no idea where it is going or even what type of show it is. One minute Eddie is questioning things, the next minute he is full on hail the ladder. I also don't see why it doesn't bother him that Sarah is his wife and essentially his boss. It bothers me as a viewer. I also hate it that Sarah and her niece Joy, are following Hawk around every minute demanding to know what he is doing, thinking, feeling. I couldn't take it. 

Cal remains a mystery as well. I love Hugh Dancy but have no idea what we are supposed to think about him. Also confused as to why Eddie keeps having these visions of Sarah and Cal kissing. 

[numbnut]

So Cal gets beaten to a pulp but only needs one butterfly stitch? No cracked ribs? No concussion? No detached retina? Not even a limp? OK, Show. I'm basically hate-watching at this point.

[ElsbethTascioni]

11 hours ago, numbnut said:

So Cal gets beaten to a pulp but only needs one butterfly stitch? No cracked ribs? No concussion? No detached retina? Not even a limp? OK, Show. I'm basically hate-watching at this point.

Yeah, that really bothered me too. He just got beaten, and he can drive himself back to the compound, and no need for x-rays or anything else? Sure.

[sjohnson]

Cal is being played as the villain whose villainy perverts normal decent religious impulses into a cult. He can't be depicted as a victim, much less a martyr. It's the same sort of thing where the show briefly shows the harassment from the Christian kids (which definitely includes the otherwise unobservant ones.) Then when Ashley takes up with Hawk, there's no more stigma from other kids, it's just the awful cult family against True Love. 

[SoWindsor]

This show sucks.

I am the biggest Aaron Paul fan but I don't don't like his character or anything about the show. Why is his character so crappy?

Cal is awful. I know he's played by Claire Danes  husband but he is creepy and unlikeable. Doesn't have the charisma you would expect from a cult leader. He's like a weird pervert creep -- not charming and strong like your typical sociopath ha.

ive also always been a Michele M fan -- perhaps because I've been told I look like her but her character is the most annoying character I've ever come across. Ugh! 

The storyline I'm most interested in is Hawk and his muggle girlfriend.

Blech!

[ToxicUnicorn]

Quote

Hawk and his muggle girlfriend.

Hahaha - that's perfect.  Yes, it's a pretty damning comment about the rest of the show when the teen storyline might catch my attention.

Quote

Cal is awful. I know he's played by Claire Danes  husband but he is creepy and unlikeable. Doesn't have the charisma you would expect from a cult leader. 

I've only ever seen Hugh D. on Hannibal (as the non-titular character) which is a show I had to quit watching because everything about it was too creepy and unlikeable.  Compared to that, though, Cal is almost a ray of sunshine.

I like all the actors, sort of, but I think the pace on this show is so slow.  We really haven't learned anything more than we saw in the first episode.

Edited May 3, 2016 by ToxicUnicorn

[leighdear]

The kid playing Hawk just keeps giving me that young Heath Ledger vibe.  Maybe it's the long wavy hair.  And I keep waiting for Aaron Paul, in that deliberately low, gravely and growly voice, to say "I'm Batman".  It sounds incredibly fake & affected to me. 

This show is awful.  I tried, honestly.  But now that I'm at the hate-watching stage, there's just no redemption.  Jesse Pinkman just won't die.  

[millennium]

Hawk is the only character I care about.    The young actor is doing a great job and hopefully has a promising future.   I felt his anguish as he stood helpless watching Ashley recede from his life, perhaps forever.

Pinkman is frustrating.   He won't commit.   He knows Meyerism may as well be called Oscar Mayerism for all its phony baloney, yet he keeps going back for more Kool Aid.  

I'm sick of all the Cals in TV and movie fiction.   I'm sick of them in real life too.  I'd rather Cal be a true believer who proceeds from religious fanaticism rather than hypocritical self-interest.  Oh, and look, the one person who's courageous enough to call him out as a fraud just happens to show up at his cabin unseen by everyone else in the compound (which also happens to be surrounded by the FBI) *and* he manages to let Cal kill him.   Boy, that's novel.

The best thing about this show is the artwork in the opening credits.   I wouldn't mind seeing more shows get creative like that.

[sjohnson]

Silas was saying he wanted to liquidate the firm, take the cash and run. It is actually quite sensible of him to try to keep that plan as secret as possible. What wasn't sensible of course was the idea that he could remove Cal as an obstacle by just attacking him personally. I suppose we can imagine that Silas has always been a vicious prick but even a vicious prick should have seen the broken vase in Cal's hand. The murder is a turn toward melodrama. It's almost certain that in the end this will kill any dramatic tension by making all the choices the characters make no-brainers. Will Eddie reject the Meyerists? Of course, only someone without a brain stick with a murderer. (Well, technically manslaughterer.) Etc. 

Cal has to be markered as Evil because part of the show is Meyerism standing in for all religions, period. And religion is only every bad because of Bad People inexplicably getting to be in charge. It gets very awkward when Cal is officially the worst when the show inadvertently makes so many others so dubious. Ridge having Cal beaten is supposed to be a feel good moment! The mom is freaked out by a private room for meditating on the Light, but Gideon Bibles in the waiting room, receptionists ritually greeting "God Bless," newspapers have sermons on the op-ed page and random rants about the War on Christmas don't even register. Even Our Hero, Eddie, doesn't have a qualm about Alison stealing $40 000. It's hard to tell whether he knows that Alison isn't reliable and he can't assume Tom was murdered? Or does he believe her and just not care?

Ashley claiming all of a sudden that she needed to be there for her mother when she never had before was a good belly laugh. 

[Madding crowd]

How do we know Ashley has never been there for her mother? We barely know these people. I do know Ashley's father died and she lost her home. I haven't seen anything to suggest she is anything but a regular teenager. As for the cult: killing someone because they don't agree with you cannot be compared to leaving bibles in a hotel room where they may or may not be read. The Meyerist don't do anything out of sheer kindness. Any people helped are expected to join the 'movement' are are quickly shunned if they do not.

 

I actually kind of liked Cal up until this episode. I also don't know how Silas could just shut down the religion. How would that work? Would these people just be told to leave and get jobs? If Silas felt the religion was over, why wouldn't he just leave himself? Lots about this religion just don't make sense.  I still like Eddie but he is all over the place. He is protecting Allison, he is obeying Sarah and Cal, he has doubts, then he doesn't. And if they send people into the jungle to drink an LSD concoction, how can they be upset at what visions take place or don't take place?

 

And Allison didn't steal the money. The money was put into her and her husband's bank account. After he was murdered, the cult wanted it back, but I'm not sure she was obligated to send it back. I assume her husband was involved in some shady business for the cult, so getting the money back should be the least of their worries.

I can only hope that Eddie and Hawk go on their walk and never come back, and that the terribly annoying cousin of Hawk's who spends her life spying on him, gets sent far, far away on a mission of some sort. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Madding crowd

[sjohnson]

But one of the few things we do know about Ashley is where she's been, which is with Hawk, not her mother. But the show clearly suggests she is a very special teenager. 

As to why Silas not just leaving if he thought the religion was over? Exactly the point. But if he wants to try to get the money from selling movement property he needs to keep control a while longer. Which is why it's so important to savage Cal to keep him from sinking the boat before Silas' ship comes in. 

The husband was buying cancer drugs with the money. It was being handled privately to keep the secret of Meyer's impending death. Kemp may or may not have signed papers enjoining confidentiality (my guess is, yes.) But yeah, assets of an estate are generally regarded as something to be disposed of in an orderly fashion after hearing the claims of creditors. Even if in the end a court didn't agree that the group's claim was invalid (though I can't imagine why,) there is no doubt that Alison was playing fast and loose at best. The thing is, she's compromised her credibility. Which was more important? $40 000, or having people listen to you. If she had even said, hey, my husband's account had $40 000 from this cult for some sort of hanky panky and now he's dead! She'd have gotten a hearing. But she chose money now. 

[Madding crowd]

I'm not sure what you mean about Ashley. Are you saying teenagers need to spend all of their time with their parents? My teen doesn't. How does dating or falling in love mean she's a bad person? And we don't know anything about Alison besides the fact she is scared and hiding out from Cal. You seem to be siding with the cult on everything, but that is the opposite of where the show is going I think. 

 

I know the cult feels IS people are all bad, but I'm not seeing any bad characters except Cal and Sarah who lock people up against their will, murder in the case of Cal , and refusing to allow her teen basic human rights (Sarah).

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Eddie brings Hawk along on a journey of spiritual enlightenment, while Cal struggles with the ugly reality of his own violent tendencies. Nicole’s labor becomes troubled, and Sarah performs a miracle to save the child. Cal, in a moment of weakness, tells Sarah a secret about Eddie.

[sjohnson]

2 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Are you saying teenagers need to spend all of their time with their parents? My teen doesn't. How does dating or falling in love mean she's a bad person? 

Teens don't ordinarily need to spend all of their time with their parents, or perhaps even most of it. (I'm not sure lack of supervision is a basic human right of children, even teens, though.) But there's nothing ordinary about the family situation and this is a time when the family needs to rely on each other. But as we've seen, Ashley has other business than her incompetent mother. By the way, the non-existence of a personality for her sister, who may not even have a name, is a good sign as to the badness of the writing for this whole story line. 

As to the other question, I don't think Ashley is a bad person. It's the show that thinks Ashley is a wonderful person showing true love and a font of wisdom beyond her years. Sorry, but I think that is sentimental bosh, and third rate writing. I think the character is so poorly drawn we don't know whether she was sexually active before the family's financial downfall. Nor do we know if she's on birth control, or even whether she knows there is such a thing. The awfulness of the Hawk/Ashley story line's writing is truly appalling. Maybe it's an appealing fantasy to many but does this show really want to be about heart-warming fantasy, or an honest look at religion? If it's just a thriller, real teens would heighten the stakes!

This show evidently has pretensions to being a serious drama. That's the only excuse for being so slow paced and diverting into twaddle like Hawk/Ashley. But the problem is, what really is the difference between a cult and a religion? If the difference is supposed to be that obviously evil people like Cal somehow, mysteriously but inevitably, take over cults, then that is an answer that can't be taken seriously. The demonization of Cal seems to me to threaten a fatal lapse into melodrama, if not high camp, so I tend to resist it. 

(And if the difference is supposed to be that religions, unlike cults, don't make real demands on its followers, then what is the point of religion? And how can you take something so trivial seriously?) 

[Madding crowd]

I don't really know what this show is supposed to be about. During the first episode, I thought it was about Eddie finding out things about the movement that were disturbing and he along with Allison perhaps, would be trying to find out the truth. Along the way we got several other story lines going on including Cal and his mother, his former relationship with Sarah etc., other people in the movement, the founder of the movement dying in Mexico, Mary and her relationship etc. So, I don't know that it is about any type of comparisons to religion at all. At this point it seems like more of a mystery.

[Blue Plastic]

I don't understand Eddie/Pinkman at all. He just listlessly submits to whatever the cult orders him to do, even though he is really pretty sure it's all balderdash.  I guess he's worried he'll be shunned and lose his kids/family. But I don't get what he sees in his wife. She is an obnoxious controlling horrible person.

Why is Sarah so gung ho on this religion anyway?  What is her issue?  She was willing to illegally detain and almost kill that poor woman she thinks had an affair with Eddie. 

i too hate the spying cousin.  I wouldn't be surprised if she had cameras in everyone's room/house.

Where are they all living anyway?  How come some of them have houses but others only a small room in a cabin?

Who is Silas?  Is he the one that gives out the hallucinogens in Peru?  Why are they all so obsessed with hallucinogens and taking them in Peru, anyway?  Whoever said they shouldn't get mad at Eddie for his vision was right on.  Why is his vision automatically wrong? They gave him the stupid drug to make him see things, but they don't like the result so now he has to do the Walk.  Oka-ay.

Love that Cal still had dead Silas in his house when he started his drinking binge  I suppose dead Silas will magically disappear next episode so no one finds out what a sicko Cal is yet.

[Guest]

On 5/4/2016 at 4:29 PM, sjohnson said:

But one of the few things we do know about Ashley is where she's been, which is with Hawk, not her mother. But the show clearly suggests she is a very special teenager. 

As to why Silas not just leaving if he thought the religion was over? Exactly the point. But if he wants to try to get the money from selling movement property he needs to keep control a while longer. Which is why it's so important to savage Cal to keep him from sinking the boat before Silas' ship comes in. 

The husband was buying cancer drugs with the money. It was being handled privately to keep the secret of Meyer's impending death. Kemp may or may not have signed papers enjoining confidentiality (my guess is, yes.) But yeah, assets of an estate are generally regarded as something to be disposed of in an orderly fashion after hearing the claims of creditors. Even if in the end a court didn't agree that the group's claim was invalid (though I can't imagine why,) there is no doubt that Alison was playing fast and loose at best. The thing is, she's compromised her credibility. Which was more important? $40 000, or having people listen to you. If she had even said, hey, my husband's account had $40 000 from this cult for some sort of hanky panky and now he's dead! She'd have gotten a hearing. But she chose money now. 

I feel like we're watching different shows.  Ashley seems like a very normal teen and Alison like a victim of the cult fanatics.  

I wish this show would go somewhere interesting.  It was a good premise.  And that title sequence artwork.  

I'm glad Hawk is going walking with Eddie.  I don't want to watch Aaron Paul walk 250 miles without money.  At least with the kid there might be some conversation.  

[sjohnson]

A teenage girl who drops all her girl friends is not a "very" normal teenager. It just isn't. It increasingly seems like "Ashley" is a blank cardboard cutout upon which audience presuppositions or fantasies are projected. Perhaps that is more interesting than an actually imagined character.

[Guest]

A crazy cult built on lies claims this young, happily married doctor killed himself.  He was almost certainly involved in illegal trafficking for them, and he had expressed doubts about the cult that day.  We've seen Cal hunting Alison down like a dog, including staking out her parents' house.  We've seen Cal kill a colleague with a broken bottle and use Mary as a sex toy.  I imagine very few viewers think Alison is the bad guy, and Ashley is the weirdo.