Xander

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I know that many people these days are hard on Xander and call out his toxic masculinity and other ways in which the character was problematic.

I find it somehow amusing that people who like to call out Xander's "toxic masculinity" are mostly OK with much more blatant displays of said masculinity on behalf of Spike.

 

3 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I don't actually remember a scene in season seven, in which he was exhibiting problematic behavior or character traits anymore.

I do. Drooling for Anya instead of moving on after everything was over (they couldn't fix anything after Hell's Bells, period. Being just friends was the best he could hope for). Then there was that pesky sex scene in Touched and don't wanna get into it due to the unwillingness to start a long useless rant. There were dozens of good looking girls in the Summers' house and I can see no reasons why the writers didn't allow Xander to follow in Willow's footsteps and find himself in the arms of one of the potentials. JMO though.

 

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

When doing rewatches these days, I kind of wish they had explored Xander's broken home life a little bit more.

I always wanted the writers of the show to dig deeper on the issue. Taking a closer look at Xander's (and Willow's for that matter) home life would only benefit the series.

 

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

it's clear that he has some trauma from growing up in a broken family.

It is. But many in the fandom still refuse to give Xander even a slightest pass. If it was, say, Buffy growing up in a broken home, having the pieces of white trash like Tony and Jessica as a parents, she'd be an object of a universal compassion.

 

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

One of the biggest mistakes of the series for me was having Xander not marry Anya.

On the contrary, I believe it was quite foolish (on the part of Joss and the others) to make Xander who'd just turned 20 in 2001 ask for Anya's hand (final fight with the Hellgod bitch was just around the corner and it wasn't the best moment for such a serious step). The guy had just left his parents' basement and still couldn't buy beer legally in the state of California... The whole wedding affair proved to be just disaster in the making and to this day I resist the writers assumption that a 1000-years-old ex-demon was the only alternative for X and the sole woman in the whole state of California to spend the rest of his life with.

 

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I still enjoyed them as a couple together.

I'd be enjoying X/A as a couple more if their romance continued from The Harsh Light of Day 'til, say, Where the Wild Things Are. But I guess it's just the matter of taste.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

On the contrary, I believe it was quite foolish (on the part of Joss and the others) to make Xander who'd just turned 20 in 2001 ask for Anya's hand (final fight with the Hellgod bitch was just around the corner and it wasn't the best moment for such a serious step). The guy had just left his parents' basement and still couldn't buy beer legally in the state of California... The whole wedding affair proved to be just disaster in the making and to this day I resist the writers assumption that a 1000-years-old ex-demon was the only alternative for X and the sole woman in the whole state of California to spend the rest of his life with.

Joss seemed intent on slotting the trio into three very specific post-college 'roles' (Widow/Single Mom/Divorcee) without caring about the damage it did to the show as a whole.

[lembergwatcher]

When I saw When She Was Bad for the first time twenty years ago, there was a particular scene which one might call the moment of clarity in my case. After figuring out she was misled by Absalom and his his cronies, Buffy "This is my fight" Summers comes back to the library only to find the place trashed and with none of the other Scoobs in sight. When Xander regains consciousness and gets up, Buffy rushes over to help, but he shakes her off. 
 

Quote

Buffy: What happened?

Xander: (out of breath) Vampires. The ones you could handle yourself.

Buffy: Where are the others?

Xander: I don't know. (angry) I don't know what your problem is, what your issues are. But as of now, I officially don't care. If you'd worked with us for five seconds, you coulda stopped this.

And then there is:
 

Quote

Xander: (vehemently) If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you.

Together with saving Buffy's life (and the whole world for that matter) in Prophecy Girl that moment solidified my perception of Xander Harris for the rest of the series. This is Xander I like the most. I like it when he challenges Buffy and the other authority figures in the Scooby Gang. I have no doubts that if Willow really got hurt, Buffy wouln't get away with it - even if she was the Slayer and Xander just could have gotten himself killed in the ensuing confrontation. I like it when he says things straight into others' faces. Unpopular things, hard truth (Angel may have a soul, but he's still a demon,and there's no guarantee he won't start killing again - Xander knew it all along). Even though the writers did everything to make him look like a jerk and hypocritre toward the end of the show, the course of events proved Xander right on many occassions.

When it came to Willow and other people he loved Xander didn't think about himself for one second. He was much more than just a "hormonal time bomb", a good friend, a joker, a shoulder to cry on, Buffy's or Anya's lapdog, or Dawnie's nanny. He wasn't a loser who had to live in his parents' basement and whose only achievement seemed to be holding a steady job. He had no superpowers or special skills but that was exactly what made him so special and made his willingness to sacrifice for the ones that mattered to him worthy of respect. He may have looked like a black sheep of the family among the slayers and magical keys, ensoulde vampires and ex-demons, witches and watchers, werewolves and the agents of PTB, still it was him who helped the SG and the show in general to maintain its humanity and follow the initial course of saving people and the world from the dark...

As for the 'shipping thing... I respect the opinions of those who are in favor of Xander/Cordy or Xander/Anya pairings, I know many fans love those couples for all the right reasons and have solid argumentations, and, hey, it's just a matter of taste or personal preferences, but yours truly has always been and always will be rooting for two extraordinary Sunnydale kids who became the Slayer's best friends since day one and whose friendship is one of the most beautiful and touching things in the whole Buffyverse. And who had a lot of potential as a couple, but didn't make it due to writers' obstinacy.

Edited August 25, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

46 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

I respect the opinions of those who are in favor of Xander/Cordy or Xander/Anya pairings

On behalf of Cordelia, I want to point out that those two are not the same thing.  Cordelia is a real-life human being, a part of Willow and Xander's life for over a decade before we meet the three of them, a "mirror" for Buffy in just the same way that Ampata or Kendra or Debbie or Faith or Glory is.  But unlike the others, she is the closest mirror for Buffy's complete experience, growing from her privileged isolation to become a true heroine.

Whereas Anya is an unrepentant mass-murdering selfish bitch.  Just saying.

I myself incline slightly towards X/C because it works very well on the series and because it allows for the true soulmatey goodness of Buffy/Willow.  But W/X is also appealing, since it was Willow's dream for so long (and because it allows Buffy and Cordelia to have amazing sex and then bond over shoes).  Or hey, let Xander live his "White Knight" fantasies with Buffy while Willow and Cordelia try to organize and categorize and coordinate the universe (you did notice that their brains work along the same lines, didn't you?)…I'm perfectly fine, as long as we just keep the vampires and demons and plastic guitarists and sanctimonious Wiccan hypocrites away from the gang.  But JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

On behalf of Cordelia, I want to point out that those two are not the same thing.

Right, I understand it. I didn't mean to put it that way. Those cases are not the same, true, but there are people in the fandom who think that, quoting Buffy from Triangle, "They have a miraculous love!", so in their regard we may just agree to disagree.

 

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I myself incline slightly towards X/C because it works very well on the series and because it allows for the true soulmatey goodness of Buffy/Willow.  But W/X is also appealing, since it was Willow's dream for so long (and because it allows Buffy and Cordelia to have amazing sex and then bond over shoes).

Dunno why, but I myself prefer Buffy/Cordelia sex to Buffy/Willow bonding :-) Maybe 'cause I'm a little biased about Buffy since the whole shit from S.05 - 07...

 

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Or hey, let Xander live his "White Knight" fantasies with Buffy

I think White Knight deserves more than Buffy... I was pretty much done with them since Prophecy Girl. In my world the only way Buffy can come closer to Xander that way is through B/W/X or, ok, B/W/X/C. But JMO.

 

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

as long as we just keep the vampires and demons and plastic guitarists and sanctimonious Wiccan hypocrites away from the gang

Unfortunately Joss W for some totally twisted reasons was eager to get rid of Xander (if those rumours about him approaching NB around S.04 are true), rather than all those others you mentioned.

[Jack Shaftoe]

On 8/25/2018 at 12:12 PM, nosleepforme said:

It was somewhat problematic that they swept Anya's past under the rug and only used her for comedic purposes, but she's a funny and entertaining character and I loved her love for Xander, because she did truly care for him, in ways that other people on the show did not.

What ways would that be?

Quote

But I do also think that he grew a lot as a character throughout the seasons and I don't actually remember a scene in season seven, in which he was exhibiting problematic behavior or character traits anymore.

Hard to do anything noteworthy when you are a glorified wallpaper. Personally, I don't think Xander's passivity and desire to follow almost every idiotic plan of Buffy constitutes positive development. Xander of Season 2 would never have gone with the suicidally idiotic idea of him sheltering Spike, the suspected killer, for example, or the dumb plan in Chosen. I don't understand why Xander becoming a rather pathetic yes-man is considered great character development by so many people. Especially considering Buffy and Willow started making many more dumb mistakes in the latter seasons, so it's not like Xander realised they tend to be right, so he better keep his mouth shut.

Quote

Additionally, Xander still got more development and moments in the final three seasons than Giles, Tara or Anya.

What development? He got a job out of the blue after being a buttmonkey for a year at the very start of this period and that was it. He only looks good in comparison because everyone else either died or was character assassinated so badly that they barely resembled their original versions.

Quote

it told the story of how you feel the least accomplished when all the people around you have something special going on. It's kinda of like all your friends are executives of powerful companies and you're a hairdresser.

But that was never the case. Seasons 1-3 - Xander is vastly more useful to the demon slaying effort than Willow, Cordelia and Oz. Seasons 4-7 - still more useful than Anya and Tara and for all of Willow's powers, the number of times they actually saved the day was pretty small. Which is precisely why Xander's famous speech in Potential is so maddeningly silly, IMO. It's more like "one of your friends is an executive but would have been bankrupt dozens of times if it weren't for your help, some of your friends also help out but not as much as you do but still for some reason you consider yourself useless compared to them".

Quote

Honestly, I never felt like the show tried to say that you're a loser by not having superpowers

Not even when it spelled it out so clearly in episodes like "Get It Done"?

Quote

I find it somehow amusing that people who like to call out Xander's "toxic masculinity" are mostly OK with much more blatant displays of said masculinity on behalf of Spike.

Yes, and many of the same people who call Xander a misogynist love Anya who for most of her life was not just misandrist but a misandrist serial killer to boot. You can't make this stuff up.

[Perfect Xero]

8 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I don't think there is any truth to the rumors. Xander was the Joss Whedon stand-in among the characters, for most of the show's run he told everyone that he was Xander.

It's a bit more than a rumor. It's something that Nick Brendon directly said happened in an interview.

[Halting Hex]

Ironic then that not only did Xander survive the series (mostly intact) but that Xander/NB was the only one of the cast to not merely have signed on for a possible Season 8 (only SMG and Emma hadn't done that) but even for a potential S9, as he told an Australian interviewer before S7.  Man liked his job, can't blame him.

[lembergwatcher]

I wonder what kept Joss Almighty from obliterating Xander during/after season 4? He would've had a heart attack as a result of the Enjoining spell in Primeval. He could just go down in the blaze of glory back then... Also there are rumors it was Xander intended to be the human prison/vessel for Glory in season 5 instead of Ben. And that at first they wanted him dead rather than maimed after meeting Caleb in Dirty Girls.

[Halting Hex]

36 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

I am kind of happy they kept him alive, though in retrospect I don't find him losing the eye as necessary. Did it really raise the stakes all that much for the final five episodes?

Bitter discussion on TWoP, as the show was winding down:

TWoPPer #1:  (paragraph about how obsessed the poster has become with Xander's missing eye, how the story has been completely unexplored, ending with a frustrated "What was the point of all this, anyway?")

TWoPPer #2:  Gore for the Previouslies, apparently.

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I think Joss told him there weren't any major developments coming for his character anymore, but I don't think he ever intended to write Xander off the show. He could have easily done that at any point and didn't need Nick's permission.

Joss didn't need his permission, that doesn't mean that Joss didn't want his blessing before putting someone who had been with him since the original pilot and shoestring budget years shooting in an incredibly hot warehouse out of a job.

Unfortunately the original article doesn't seem to be online anymore, but I think he said that Joss offered to write him off the show if he wanted out at that point but he decided to stay on.

[Halting Hex]

Also, Nick had the same 5-year contract the other original cast members had; get rid of him before the show left the WB and you'd be eating $$$ for very little reason.

And with ASH not reupping as the show jumped networks, I'm not sure how happy UPN would have been to have bought a show with only one male cast member.  So there was probably an incentive to offer Nick the same two-year deal for S6-S7 that all the girls got.  (Except Amber, of course.)

[lembergwatcher]

Some funny excerpt from Danny Strong's interview - https://tv.avclub.com/buffy-s-danny-strong-remembers-getting-spanked-by-chari-1798258976
 

Quote

If you could have played any other character on Buffy besides yours, who would it have been?

DS: I think—and it was actually my first encounter with Buffy—was auditioning for the pilot presentation for the part of Xander. And to this day, I say I was robbed. I think I would have made a great Xander.

AVC: Did you try to explain to Nicholas Brendon that clearly you would have been the superior Xander?

DS: I text him every day and let him know. He stopped responding in 1998. Whatever.

Dunno 'bout you, but to me Danny is the last person I imagine playing the role of Xander Harris...
Don't know much about Mr. Strong's other achievements, but no matter how hard he tried at Buffy, it didn't make his character any less irrelevant. JMO, of course.

Edited August 27, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

51 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Don't know much about Mr. Strong's other achievements

Danny is a two-time Emmy™-award winning screenwriter, who also wrote the screenplay for Lee Daniels's adaptation of The Butler, which led to his co-creating the FOX series Empire with Daniels, and receiving a NAACP Image Award, among other plaudits.  Not bad for a "short idiot", even I'll agree.

OTOH, that ad for the Carl's Jr. Hawaiian burger, with Danny shirtless in his Surfmobile, is scarred into my mind forever.  Eep!

Topic?  Er, Nick looked really hot in his Speedo in Go Fish.  (Yeah, I got nothing. Sorry.)

[Chaos Theory]

First off let me say I despise tropes and think for the most part “The Nice Guy” trope is bullshit.  Xander was a nice guy.  He just didn’t love Willow did love Buffy.  I don’t understand why people resented himfor that.  Should he have gotten together with Willow just because she had a crush on him?  He was a teenager fir god sake.  Cheating on Cordelia and leaving Anya are different matters but having zero zip zilch to do with a dumb trope.  They have to do with a guy teenager with hormones (Cordelia) and a guy with cold feet (Anya) who might have regretted his decision later.  

Xander remained though the show the most human character it that also left him the one with human faults but also human courage.  He deserves more then to be labeled with a negative trope.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 6:01 AM, Halting Hex said:

Also, Nick had the same 5-year contract the other original cast members had; get rid of him before the show left the WB and you'd be eating $$$ for very little reason.

And with ASH not reupping as the show jumped networks, I'm not sure how happy UPN would have been to have bought a show with only one male cast member.  So there was probably an incentive to offer Nick the same two-year deal for S6-S7 that all the girls got.  (Except Amber, of course.)

Not to mention the royalties issue, 44 more eps to earn him money every time the show is repeated all over the world (they say if you're a regular actor in a popular series as long as you can make it to 100 eps you're set for life because then it goes into syndication, something that possibly killed Angel but at least got us a final dozen eps of Gotham). Plus it kept him on TV and mildly famous for another 2 years, he made the right choice.

On ‎28‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 12:46 AM, Halting Hex said:

Danny is a two-time Emmy™-award winning screenwriter, who also wrote the screenplay for Lee Daniels's adaptation of The Butler, which led to his co-creating the FOX series Empire with Daniels, and receiving a NAACP Image Award, among other plaudits.  Not bad for a "short idiot", even I'll agree.

OTOH, that ad for the Carl's Jr. Hawaiian burger, with Danny shirtless in his Surfmobile, is scarred into my mind forever.  Eep!

Topic?  Er, Nick looked really hot in his Speedo in Go Fish.  (Yeah, I got nothing. Sorry.)

It's like he's become a paragon of all things good....?

[lembergwatcher]

Edited September 10, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

There are few things I find hard to forgive Joss & the others when it comes to one of my favorite Buffyverse characters.

The first, of course, is Xanya. I wouldn't loathe that particular 'ship so much if it wasn't one of the longest in the series. I would be more tolerant of it if the whole thing lasted from The Harsh Light of Day to, say, Where the Wild Things Are. I'd be totally happy if Hell's Bells turned out to be the last nail into the coffin of one of the most ridiculous relationships in the history of Buffyverse. Unfortunately right up until Anya's demise in the series finale we were left wondering "will they or won't they" regarding X/A issues. Don't try to persuade me Xanya was something other than blatant character assassination attempt, 'cause I can't see how does the whole thing with Anya show Xander as a decent man, first and foremost. The fact that he got involved with ex-demon not long after enduring probably the most horrible minutes of his life (thinking Willow was dead in Doppelgangland) thanks to Anya, and then stayed with her for so long, knowing full well who she was, leads us to rather bad conclusion, thinking our Xander was either a fool, a cynic or a hypocrite. I don't believe for a second Xander really loved someone like Anya. He was only in it for sex or because such kind of "relationship" does not require actual feelings and emotional attachment to your partner. His marriage proposal at the end of the fifth season was nothing but a result of the Great Buffyversal Mindfuck of 2000 IMO and doesn't prove any "true" love for Anya. But what's even more depressing is the writers' and many fans' assumption that Anya the Hellbitch was for some unknown reason the "best" choice for Xander ('cause no other girl on the entire West Coast could find him attractive, don't you know?) That "demon magnet" cliche never grows old, after all. As much as I don't like Xordelia that 'ship was truly a huge step ahead for Xander at least. It clearly showed that popular girl as Cordy could actually find an "unpopular", "uncool" "loser" type not that bad and even date him for some time. But after Lovers Walk, Amends and Consequences the show started doing a 180 and we were told the uncool were scum and didn't deserve anything good (unlike Oz-shaped "cool" types), hence Xanya.

The second thing is a hack writing concerning Xander's characterization. I just don't understand why couldn't they allow the boy to grow as a character for more than one episode? He followed Buffy into Master's lair less than 24 hours after learning the vampires existed (The Harvest), saved the Slayer by giving her CPR (Prophecy Girl),  was willing to sacrifice his own life to save Willow (Inca Mummy Girl), saved Willow, Buffy and the rest of the world during Angelus crisis (Innocence, Phases, Killed by Death, Go Fish!, Becoming, Part 2) only to find himself "useless" part of the group while fighting the good fight for the third straight year, and, what's even more outrageous, agreeing with that statement (The Zeppo). After Xander walked past Cordelia not paying attention to her venomous barbs at the end of 3.13 one might assume our boy outgrew bothering with any stupid thing Cordy said (at last!), but that wasn't the case as we learned in the following ep (Bad Girls). OTOH him evolving from the "useless part of the group" in The Zeppo to the "Key Guy" nine eps later looked like the writers' shitty attempt to please Xander's fans after marginalizing the character for most of the season. Why all of a sudden Xander's military knowledge started to matter to Buffy and the others if no one gave a damn about his abilities post-Innocence? Xander turning out to be the heart of the Scooby Gang during the Enjoining spell in S.04E.21 Primeval after being written as a sorry caricature and buttmonkey for most of the season, rarely doing anything noteworthy, was equally strange and illogical from where I stand. The less is said about turning Xander into glorified wallpaper after the introduction of the Dawnvese, the better.        

The third thing is writers' obsession with emphasizing Xander's numerous character flaws, while giving the rest of the Scoobs a pass most of the time. Most of the so-called Xander-centric episode revolve around him doing some stupid thing and then being saved by his friends or just getting himself into trouble and once again being saved by Buffy & the others. Xander is clearly shown as a stupid fool for his irrational belief a mature-looking woman like "Nathalie French" could really fall for a high school slacker like him and brushing aside Buffy's warnings (Teacher's Pet). While Willow acting equally irrational when it came to "Malcolm" in I, Robot... You, Jane, i.e., overestimating the seriousness of their "relationship" and ignoring Buffy's concern almost like Xander four eps earlier, left the impression of merely a cute romantic soul looking for love and attention. Xander's lie to Buffy in Becoming, Part 2 is still viewed by many as a terrible betrayal while Buffy's lies on many ocassions throughout the series (from Angel's return to the whole Heeeeaaaveen thing) are somehow OK.

Edited December 9, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Xanya. I wouldn't loathe that particular 'ship so much if it wasn't one of the longest in the series.

Oh, no…not "one of".  The longest in the series.

"Yay?" –Xander, The Prom.

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I'd be totally happy if Hell's Bells turned out to be the last nail into the coffin of one of the most ridiculous relationships in the history of Buffyverse. Unfortunately right up until Anya's demise in the series finale we were left wondering "will they or won't they" regarding X/A issues.

I'd say the clearer part of demarcation should be Selfless, since the "lesson" that Anya allegedly learns is that "my whole life, I've just clung to what's around me", so logically she should move on to forging her own identity, for the sake of character growth.  You could even have her just leave town right there.  But instead she becomes a virtual prisoner at 1630 Revello and just spends her time sniffing after Spike and then running back to Xander for consolation sex.  Just embarrassing.

But if you need to 'ship her, why not pair her with Robin?  It would be less creepy than his working out his Mommy-issues with Buffy or Faith.  Or why not have Robson show up in town, his Slayer dead but his wanting to fight the Evil that killed her?  You could see the group through his eyes (although the character might be redundant, with Robin likewise suspicious of Spike, etc.) and he and Anya might end up with an unlikely spark.

And obviously Kennedy doesn't have to be the only "over-age" Potential to come visit…

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Xander turning out to be the heart of the Scooby Gang during the Enjoining spell in S.04E.21 Primeval after being written as a sorry caricature and buttmonkey for most of the season, rarely doing anything noteworthy, was equally strange and illogical from where I stand.

I understand that Joss didn't want Military Guy! Xander to overshadow Buffy and pull her ass out of the fire, episode after episode, just as it wouldn't do for Giles to be "the magical Chief Engineer" (David Hines's reference to Geordi saving day a bit too often in ST:TNG) or SuperWiccaWillow to turn the show into Charmed: Sunnydale. But to explicitly make Xander such a buffoon in The Initiative, a slapfighting wuss who doesn't remember how to use a gun, makes very little sense if you're planning on going to that well ever again.  And then they can't be bothered to make a consistent decision on whether he has any military knowledge left, with Buffy taking him to the Initiative base because of his skills in Goodbye, Iowa, but then Petrie making him incompetent to even find the on-off switch for the blaster the very next episode.  The year-end "no, Xander's useful, we swear!" crumbs tossed out became laughable even before he beat Glory with his X-Ray vision.

And of course, that "tradition" made it harder to take the Yellow Crayon Speech as seriously as it was intended. The fact that most of the two-parter had consisted of Xander groveling to Anya about what a useless buffoon he was and listening to Dawn tell him how much braver Spike would have been and so on certainly didn't help there, IMO. 

(Although, let's be fair.  How could Fat Useless Xander EVER hope to be as cool as Spike?  I mean, did Xander ever ride a motorcycle to Africa?  I don't think so!)

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Xander is clearly shown as a stupid fool for his irrational belief a mature-looking woman like "Nathalie French" could really fall for a high school slacker like him and brushing aside Buffy's warnings (Teacher's Pet). While Willow acting equally irrational when it came to "Malcolm" in I, Robot... You, Jane, i.e., overestimating the seriousness of their "relationship" and ignoring Buffy's concern almost like Xander four eps earlier, left the impression of merely a cute romantic soul looking for love and attention

To be fair, Xander can see that Natalie is "woman-shaped", whereas Willow thinks she's talking to a fellow student.  OTOH, Willow (at least in the canon) doesn't have the same excuse for ignoring Buffy's concerns that Xander did, since he was in love with Buffy and upset she didn't seem to get that.  Whereas, according to Xander, "Willow's not looking to date you [Buffy].  Or if she is, she's playing it pretty close to the chest."

So, not quite the same thing there.  Unless X doesn't have that "One Who Sees" trick down, quite yet. ;)

[Melancholy]

I love Xander and Willow in Teacher's Pet and IRYJ respectively. However, I did find Willow more logical and Buffy's concerns over Xander more self-evidently correct. Xander's relationship with Ms. French was by definition inappropriate, before they learned she was a monster. Buffy warned Xander that Ms. French may be a bug after Buffy/Giles/Willow believed she killed her predecessor and the clues indicated she was some kind of monster. Xander wasn't a part of that mystery solving scene but he did know that Ms. French's predecessor was murdered by a bug and the gang was on the case. However, by this point, Xander was ensnared by Ms. French's pheromones. 

On the other hand, an MOTW or signs of violence hadn't materialized by the time Buffy warned Willow about Malcom. Buffy ended up being right about Malcom but IMO, her lack of technological sophistication was partly driving her paranoia. Buffy didn't understand the appeal of finding an on-line pen pal and spending hours discussing stuff with him. (Ha, what we all do on message boards.) It's considerably more dangerous for a student to go over to the high school teacher's house with hopes of sex than for a person to corresponding with someone online and never agree to meet or hand over identifying information. Willow did heed Buffy's warnings though. When Malcolm indicated that he had a mean and stalker-y side to him when he trash-talked Buffy and knew about her issues in school, Willow dropped his ass like a hot potato in Willow's next scene after fighting with Buffy over Malcolm. Malcolm ends up kidnapping her soon after because he's already seduced Fritz. 

I don't think Xander's military skills should have disappeared. IMO, it was all to fluff Riley. A need for military skills didn't come often in this show. I suppose S4 was the exception and it was the season where Xander lost his skills- but IMO, Riley still could have uniquely offered Buffy access to the Initiative without having the monopoly on military training. It was a nice little quirk of Xander's and he should have kept it. However, I don't think keeping his military skills would have solved the issues in how he was written in S5-7. He needed a full-on arc, aside from Anya. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Melancholy

[lembergwatcher]

44 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

You could even have her just leave town right there.

I hoped and prayed it would come to this. But Joss Almighty failed to hear those prayers of mine...

[Dee]

"The Lie™" ruined Xander. After Becoming II, Xander was strictly cannon fodder for various ships.

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, Dee said:

"The Lie™" ruined Xander. After Becoming II, Xander was strictly cannon fodder for various ships.

No, it actually added depth to his character, we will always wonder was he thinking with his head or his heart? I figure both. 

[lembergwatcher]

12 hours ago, Dee said:

"The Lie™" ruined Xander. After Becoming II, Xander was strictly cannon fodder for various ships.

That's what I'm tryin' to say. People like to emphasize Xander's questionable decisions or outright faults while turning a blind eye on other characters' fallacies. It never ceases to amaze my how none of Buffy's numerous lies ruined her as a character in the eyes of most of the fans or how Giles' lies (The Dark Age, Helpless) didn't do that either, but anything Xander does is always a big deal. Xander's situation is unique since he's probably the only Buffyverse character who's mostly hated not for his terrible decisions (hello, Anya!) but for doing the right thing, for saving countless lives - including Buffy's.

Another thing with Xander is that writers decided to follow quite a strange pattern when it came to him since season 3. They chose to marginalize him for most of the episodes (seasons 3-6) and only allowed him to do something remarkable in the final/penultimate ep. Unfortunately the writers decided to abandon that kind of approach in the seventh season. To this day I find it hard to understand how can one particular character be so easily turned from the Key Guy to a loser unable to fight someone like Harmony, from the heart of the Scooby Gang and an important part of a powerful spell to insects eating Dracula's buttmonkey, and from the one who literally saved the world's collective ass with no superpowers to a totally irrelevant shadow of his former self?..   

Edited December 10, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:56 AM, lembergwatcher said:

That's what I'm tryin' to say. People like to emphasize Xander's questionable decisions or outright faults while turning a blind eye on other characters' fallacies. It never ceases to amaze my how none of Buffy's numerous lies ruined her as a character in the eyes of most of the fans or how Giles' lies (The Dark Age, Helpless) didn't do that either, but anything Xander does is always a big deal. Xander's situation is unique since he's probably the only Buffyverse character who's mostly hated not for his terrible decisions (hello, Anya!) but for doing the right thing, for saving countless lives - including Buffy's.

Another thing with Xander is that writers decided to follow quite a strange pattern when it came to him since season 3. They chose to marginalize him for most of the episodes (seasons 3-6) and only allowed him to do something remarkable in the final/penultimate ep. Unfortunately the writers decided to abandon that kind of approach in the seventh season. To this day I find it hard to understand how can one particular character be so easily turned from the Key Guy to a loser unable to fight someone like Harmony, from the heart of the Scooby Gang and an important part of a powerful spell to insects eating Dracula's buttmonkey, and from the one who literally saved the world's collective ass with no superpowers to a totally irrelevant shadow of his former self?..   

All the Scoobs do lie at some stage but Xander's was at a time of such emotional turmoil it all really hit home to fans. Xander was to an extent the comic relief but he has his moments, saving the world etc, every dog has his day and everyman Xander has more than one. 

[K42]

Said this in a different thread.

I HATED what the writers did with Xander. Nicholas Brandon has so much acting range. I don't know why they went with dorky Xander but it got tired after the first season. I wanted The Pack Xander. I wanted his personality to become affected by that darkness during the series. He would have been a lot more interesting to watch. They all did Nic Brendon dirty with that dorkfest character writing. 

[VCRTracking]

8 hours ago, K42 said:

Said this in a different thread.

I HATED what the writers did with Xander. Nicholas Brandon has so much acting range. I don't know why they went with dorky Xander but it got tired after the first season. I wanted The Pack Xander. I wanted his personality to become affected by that darkness during the series. He would have been a lot more interesting to watch. They all did Nic Brendon dirty with that dorkfest character writing. 

Rob DesHotel, one of the story editors and writers during the first two seasons recently passed at the age of 52 and this quote from his obituary on The Hollywood Reporter:

Quote

His favorite character to write on Buffy, on the other hand, was Xander (Nicholas Brendon), "probably because I was most like him growing up," he told the Music in the Dark blog in 2017. "Not one of the popular kids, but that also freed me up to do my own thing. He’s a great example of something the show did better than any other at the time, and that was depicting the awkwardness and the persistent off-balance feeling of being fifteen years old."

[K42]

7 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Rob DesHotel, one of the story editors and writers during the first two seasons recently passed at the age of 52 and this quote from his obituary on The Hollywood Reporter:

He might have liked Xander but he did nothing to improve his character. They should have gone darker with Xander like they did with the rest of the cast. Especially since Nic. Brendon was dealing with his own issues back then. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

He might have liked Xander but he did nothing to improve his character.

Well, he wasn't a writer for the show after season 2, and the first two seasons are by far the best for Xander so I am not sure I understand this criticism.

Quote

They should have gone darker with Xander like they did with the rest of the cast.

Considering the terrible job they did with Dark Willow or S6-7 Buffy, I am pretty sure I wouldn't have liked that.

[lembergwatcher]

5 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

the first two seasons are by far the best for Xander

Can't argue with you here.

 

6 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

the terrible job they did with Dark Willow

Well, darker doesn't necessary mean turning Xander into male equivalent of Dark Willow. The way the writers did their job with Wesley in AtS season 3 is more appropriate IMO. If writers put an actual effort into improving Xander as a character, that might have worked.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Well, darker doesn't necessary mean turning Xander into male equivalent of Dark Willow.

I know, but there were a lot more misses than hits in ME's many "going dark" storylines. Personally, I don't see why a character absolutely has to descend into darkness in order to have real depth. There was a lot more to explore in Xander than turning him into yet another murderer (because that's Joss and co do this kind of storylines).

Edited December 12, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I know, but there were a lot more misses than hits in ME's many "going dark" storylines. Personally, I don't see why a character absolutely has to descend into darkness in order to have real depth. There was a lot more to explore in Xander than turning him into yet another murderer (because that's Joss and co do this kind of storylines).

It makes me think how great the did with the characters on Agents of SHIELD, having characters start off as "comic relief" go dark in a very gut wrenching but understandable way that Jed Whedon learned from his brother's mistakes.

[lembergwatcher]

8 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

There was a lot more to explore in Xander than turning him into yet another murderer

You're right. Although rewatching some of the episodes from the third season I wish he was. I prefer Xander the Murderer to Xander the Buttmonkey who takes the shitty treatment for granted and can't keep his mouth shut when it's necessary. Probably, that's why I like Vampire!Xander (and Vampire!Willow for that matter): not the most pleasant character, of course, but something completely different compared to the vomit-inducing "comic relief" cliche. I always thought Doppelgangland would have been much more interesting/entertaining episode if the vampire versions of both Willow and Xander were brought to Sunnydale from the alternate reality.

Xander didn't have his "darker" side exposed mostly because he wasn't "cool" enough in the eyes of JW and the likes. "Dark = cool" - that's the law of the Buffyverse

[Dee]

The irritating thing about the writing for Xander is how often Xander's thoughts/feelings/opinions/ are reduced to "jealousy."

Giles, Willow & Buffy all have more than their share of questionable actions, during the run of the series, but they're thoughts/feelings/opinions are rarely, if ever, attributed to "jealousy."

[lembergwatcher]

9 hours ago, Dee said:

The irritating thing about the writing for Xander is how often Xander's thoughts/feelings/opinions/ are reduced to "jealousy."

Well, yes. No matter how absurd the whole "jealousy" concept can be. People tend to feel jealous time after time. And the Buffyverse characters are no different, whether they are human or not. But only Xander's jealousy makes him an unrepentant bad guy, who hates women and eats innocent babies for breakfast.

Buffy covers up the return of her teacher's killer, her Watcher's tormentor, the one who almost killed Willow, Xander and Cordy on several ocassions and whose childe killed Kendra, Buffy's sister Slayer. Why would Xander be mad at her? Well, duh, because he's just jealous about Buffy blowing him off more than a year ago, why else? And the writers want all of us to fall for that bullshit. It doesn't even occur to many fans that lots of dead people do constitute a reason for strongly opposing Angel's existence, jealousy or no jealousy. 

Honestly, I don't get it why people are so eager to give Buffy some sort of absolute moral authority on far too many issues while any objection or disagreement is mostly reduced to jealousy or overall badness of whoever dares to oppose Buffy at the moment. Most Xander-haters don't scold Giles, Willow, Oz or Cordy for voicing their concerns about Angel in Revelations. No one questions their motives, but Xander must definitely be a jealous dick for not celebrating Deadboy's return. 

And speaking of jealousy: aren't Buffy's own attitude and actions driven by exactly the same feeling on far too many ocassions? Buffy leaves The Bronze the minute she sees Owen dancing with Cordelia in Never Kill a Boy on the First Date. She pointedly leaves Angel at The Bronze and goes with Ford because Angel doesn't say a word about Drusilla in Lie to Me. She's not too happy about Kendra's arrival in What's My Line, Part 2. Buffy herself is undeniably jealous whenever the topic of Faith arises (Faith, Hope & Trick, Enemies, Earshot, Who Are You, Sanctuary, Superstar, Dirty Girls, Empty Places). Willow, for her part, is jealous because of Xander and Buffy (Witch, When She Was Bad), Buffy and Cordelia (Reptile Boy), Xander and Cordelia (Innocence), Buffy and Faith (Bad Girls, Consequences), Xander and Faith (Consequences), Oz and Veruca (Beer Bad, Wild at Heart), Xander and Anya (The I in Team, Triangle, All the Way), Tara & the other girl (Normal Again). Giles isn't too thrilled about Buffy praising Maggie Walsh's intellect in A New Man either. And I don't wanna talk about Buffy's vampiric boyfriends' numerous displays of blatant jealousy.

But let tear Xander a new one, he's the jealous bastard and a douchebag!!! Even though holy Buffy herself is exposed as vindictive jealous bitch-of-the-year and pathological liar too many times.    

Edited December 13, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

20 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Most Xander-haters don't scold Giles, Willow, Oz or Cordy for voicing their concerns about Angel in Revelations. No one questions their motives, but Xander must definitely be a jealous dick for not celebrating Deadboy's return. 

To be fair, none of the others were on the record as being in love with Buffy, or had been trying to discourage her from dating Angel.  (Cordelia was competitive with Buffy about Angel, but she stopped that once she learned about the "Dead" part of "Deadboy".)  So it's easy to say "Xander's jus' jealous!" here.

Except for the small part where Xander's, you know…right.

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

To be fair, none of the others were on the record as being in love with Buffy

Well, I agree. But shouldn't this "Xander is soooo in love with Buffy" mantra sound like a broken record for most people as of Revelations? Since as you yourself once mentioned, Xander officially dates one girl in the room and has illicit smoochies with the other (and none of those girls happen to be Buffy). It's actually kind of disturbing that far too many fans do remember the jealousy thing while ignoring all that's happened between Innocence and Becoming, Part 2. Why does it seem like Xander wants the Deadboy dead for no legitimate reason to most people? 

[lembergwatcher]

On 10.12.2018 at 1:58 AM, Halting Hex said:

I understand that Joss didn't want Military Guy! Xander to overshadow Buffy

If improving Cordelia/Wesley didn't overshadow Angel in any way, shape or form, and neither did keeping all the AI members useful to the cause for more than one episode, why should Military Guy!Xander sideline Buffy? You don't need to portray Xander as some kind of buffoon in 21 out of 22 eps just to make sure Buffy doesn't turn into Alexander Harris Show. I mean, they let Wesley step out of his "comic relief" cocoon, they didn't have to potray Gunn as totally imcompetent after having him participate in the fight for four consecutive seasons. None of them though it'd be "cool" for Fred to have sex with Lorne or, say, Skip.

There's no need for Xander to outshine Buffy. Why not just let him mature and give him a chance to grow?  

Edited December 14, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:14 PM, VCRTracking said:

It makes me think how great the did with the characters on Agents of SHIELD, having characters start off as "comic relief" go dark in a very gut wrenching but understandable way that Jed Whedon learned from his brother's mistakes.

I can never make my mind up about that show, it tries so hard but just doesn't have that spark. 

On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:15 AM, Dee said:

The irritating thing about the writing for Xander is how often Xander's thoughts/feelings/opinions/ are reduced to "jealousy."

Giles, Willow & Buffy all have more than their share of questionable actions, during the run of the series, but they're thoughts/feelings/opinions are rarely, if ever, attributed to "jealousy."

To be fair Xander has a lot to be jealous about! In fairness though he also has things they others crave, his engagement, his career, bedding Faith, being the object of Dawn's affections etc. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

his engagement

Well, I sincerely hope you're joking here...

[lembergwatcher]

Of course, I didn't want the third season to be Xander's last. Although sometimes I prefer Xander going out in the blaze of glory (with a lowercase "g") instead of four seasons long "character development" that makes me regret Joss didn't fire his writing team and himself...

Why Xander Should Have Died at the End of Season 3 

https://parcae-lj.livejournal.com/5563.html

Edited December 1, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

I mentioned in another thread that I'm not even sure Buffy knows where Xander lives (at least before the Scoobs hide out in his basement in Goodbye, Iowa), but it does seem as if she's the last to pay him a visit.  In chronological order, and acknowledging we might be missing things not in the episodes:

• Willow goes to dinner at Xander's in Out of Mind, Out of Sight

• Willow fetches Xander from his house behind the scenes in Prophecy Girl

• Cordelia picks Xander up at his house to give him a lift to Buffy's house, behind the scenes in What's My Line, Part 1 (as suggested by Giles)

• Although Xander has Cordelia meet him at Willow's house before they go to the military base in Innocence, it makes sense for Oz to drop the various Scoobs at their various homes, post-mall battle.  (Giles gives Buffy a lift to her place in his Citroën, but we can see that X/C/W/O are not with them.)  Since Oz's van is the only vehicle seen at the base, it was likely the four students' ride for the rest of the night.  

And while Oz might have taken Xander back to Osbourne Manor to blow Xander's…flugelhorn, that seems unlikely.  Even if Xander does open the very next episode (Phases) by telling Cordelia that he finds Oz attractive*.  So probably X just got a lift back to his house.  (And not even a kiss!  Damn musicians, so afraid of commitment.  No wonder Xander didn't want Willow to date Oz, either…)

(*—Between Xander admiring Oz in Phases and rhapsodizing about "compact, but tightly-muscled" Spike in Intervention, it seems as though Xander has a thing for short guys.  Whereas 6'2" Angel gets told flat-out "I don't like you" in Prophecy Girl and the even-taller Riley is decried as "Teutonic".  Hmm, somebody thinks he's a top, it appears.  I wouldn't think that bending over and pointing your ass at Spike while calling yourself "moist and delicious" [Hush] would qualify as dominant, but what do I know? It's not as if I'm Richard Gere or anything.)

• Willow pays a visit to Xander's house (and his room, and his bed) in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered.

• Anya drops by Xander's basement in The Harsh Light of Day, which I must say is pretty good detective work, given that she likely hasn't been to his house before and probably doesn't know Tony Harris's first name, so the phone book wouldn't necessarily be much help.  And she clearly hasn't asked directions from any of the Scoobs, since they don't know she's back in town.  I grant you that Xander doesn't seem surprised when Anya mentions having a car in Graduation Day, Part 1, so perhaps she took him to the Prom rather than the reverse, but that's uncertain.  AFAIK, Anya just put in a lot of legwork in getting to Xander-ville.  Well done, demon!

• Anya makes a return visit (but keeps her clothes on 😞 ) in Fear, Itself.

• Willow visits in Wild at Heart to "get a perspective from the 'Y' side of things" on her own relationship issues.  (Xander has Willow's boyfriend out of town by episode's end.  Good job, X-man! 😉 )

• Giles stops by in The Initiative, allured by the sweet smell of Jessica Harris's raspberry fruit punch.  That's what brings all the boys to X's yard, uh-huh.

• Anya returns in Pangs, upgrading herself to "girlfriend" status.  It might be the syphilis talking, but she's flattered, anyhow.

• Willow stops by again in Something Blue, ranting about Buffy preferring boys to her 😞 . (Aw, baby…)  And then Anya's back, again, having been unable to resist "the Fruit Roll-Ups of Love".

• Xander swaps one demon for another, cohabiting with Spike for the moment in Hush.

• Willow stops by to laugh at Spike's wardrobe in Doomed.

• Anya visits to give Spike a going-away present in A New Man, and later Fyarl!Giles comes looking for some Xander-loving.  (Hey, that's my story, anyhow.)

And, after all of that, Buffy finally pays Xander a visit in Goodbye, Iowa, only by dint of the entire group relocating there.  She barely beats Riley by half an episode.  

Sheesh, Slayer.  Socialize, why don't you?

 

[lembergwatcher]

On 4/25/2020 at 4:59 PM, Halting Hex said:

And, after all of that, Buffy finally pays Xander a visit in Goodbye, Iowa, only by dint of the entire group relocating there.

Wasn't Buffy present at the Basement of Debasement - along with Willow and Oz - sulking because of Parker's lack of commitment during the carving of Halloween pumpkins at the beginning of Fear, Itself?

[Halting Hex]

Ah, true.  So she beat both Spike and Giles to Casa Harris, after all.  My apologies, Buff.

[lembergwatcher]

Well, that's ok. That moment was easy to forget because, although Buffy was physically there, all her thoughts and everything were somewhere in close proximity to shiny Parker. And she also had a very few lines - so that scene is quite forgettable when it comes to Buffy. That was mostly W/O/X scene. 

[Halting Hex]

You're sweet.  But clearly I forgot the entire scene, or I would have listed Willow and Oz in my attempt at chart, above.  Nope, I just goofed, that's all.

(Maybe I was so upset by Oz's inability to appreciate the blood-curdling horror of Fantasia that my brain shut down?  You never know, I guess.)

[Halting Hex]

Speaking of things I may or may not be correctly recalling…am I right to think that Xander doesn't slay a single vampire after he and Cordelia sandwich Vamp!Andy Hoehlich to dust in Anne?  Wow, 109 episodes and zero slayage by the Xand-Man?  That's laying down on the job something fierce.

And he started out so well, dusting Vamp!Jesse (with help from a fleeing Bronzer) in The Harvest, finishing off the "oh, look a bad guy" vamp (after Buffy knocked him down) in Prophecy Girl, making Theresa-slaying look easel in Phases, and then this sandwich-kill.  After this, though, all he does is assist Giles in Döppelgängland and serve as a useful lure by being pummeled in Listening to Fear until Willow does the job.  (And scuffle twice with Harmony, once extremely embarrassingly, then semi-competent in the rematch.) Disappointing, I have to say.

Meanwhile…

• Willow crossbow-dusts the Stoner vamp in The Freshman, and then racks up the double-kill in LtF.

• Giles makes use of Xander's aid in D'Land and takes out a vampire in All the Way.

• Oz may have launched a successful flaming arrow in Graduation Day, Part 2.  (He's a bowman; I don't know if the editing shows definitively that he scored a hit, I admit.)

• Cordelia got her first solo kill during that melee.

• Riley tosses one of Boone's henchvamps into the sunlight in Who Are You? and blows up a tombful of Undead-Americans in Fool for Whining.

• Spike burns the cold-medicine vamp in Bargaining, Part 1 and takes out another vamp in All the Way.  

• And even Dawn emphatically breaks up with Justin (again, All the Way).

• Amanda makes a vampire salute the flag(pole) in Potential, and apparently Kennedy took out "Leftovers" in the same episode, albeit with (to hear the tale) considerable help.

• Robin Wood slays at least one vampire in First Date.

Yes, Anya and Tara miss out on the fun and Angel only punches vamps in Bad Girls and Choices and GD2, but still.  That's a whole lot of watching for The One Who Sees, I'm thinking.  Sigh.

(Also, Wonder!Jonathan does some slaying during Superstar, but given the parameters of the spell, I can't really call him a non-Slayer at that point.)

Edited May 21, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

109 episodes and zero slayage by the Xand-Man?

I think he kills at least one demon (not a vamp, but still baddie) with Anya's help in Something Blue. Thean Xand-Man kills a biker demon in Bargaining, Part 2 and (probably) a few Bringers in the series finale (I'm not too sure about Glory's minions in Intervention though). Maybe he slayed some more during the summers between the seasons, but we are not supposed to know. Then again, how can Xander compete with all the useful parts of the gang when it comes to slayage?

 

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Yes, Anya and Tara miss out on the fun

Anya dusts one vamp in Intervention (with Xander's help) and Tara hacks the almighty Razor of the Hellions gang in Bargaining, Part 2. And I beleive there were a few more slayings by both Anya and Tara during the summer of 2001.

Edited May 22, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Oooh, I forgot about Anya's slaying in Intervention!  And she sucked down all that dust while doing dusting duty, too!  My bad.  So of our 12 regulars, only Tara failed to scratch.  (And she was only a regular for one episode, after all.)

But yes, even though Xander drowned the Separvo demon and let the sun shine in on some Übies in the finale, and even used his X-Ray Vision to wallop Glory with a wrecking ball, I was speaking about vampire-slaying, specifically.  Given that the show isn't called "Buffy the Demon-Puncher", after all.  

At one point, Xander was Buffy's most useful ally.  As of Anne, I believe the "help a Slayer out here" standings were thus:

Xander-4

Angel-2 (dusts Darla in Angel, takes out Ned in his suede jacket in When She Was Bad, but only trades punches in Prophecy Girl and School Hard and The Dark Age and Surprise and got slashed off-screen in Teacher's Pet and eats a shovel from Stephan Korshak in Some Assembly Required)

Willow-1 (with Giles holding the vampire steady for her in WML2)

Giles-1 (the jerk who laughed at Jenny shooting Giles with the crossbow in Ted)

And that's it.  Even alleged vampire-Slayer Kendra didn't dust anyone.  (If only she'd finished the job on Forehead…)  Darla and Spike and Mama Bezoar and the Judge also kill vampires, but not to help Buffy/protect humanity, so screw them.

But Xander, the Vampire Slayer's Pal goes from top of the table to sitting and watching.  Sigh.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

14 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

But Xander, the Vampire Slayer's Pal goes from top of the table to sitting and watching.  Sigh.

That was the idea. I guess.