Season 6 Speculation WITH Spoilers (UK)

[Ruby25]

I won't believe it if Fellowes ends the show with Mary married to Henry. She's not even that into this guy! Would that make anyone in the audience happy? I'm agreeing with those who say the only logical ending at this point is for Tom and Mary to end up together at the last minute. I like the point someone made about how much he liked Mad Men, and the Stan/Peggy thing.

 

I really think it seems to be building to a Tom/Mary union, and I'll be kind of baffled if she ends up with this Henry dude after all this. What would have been the point of Tom coming back?

[Brn2bwild]

Tom

What are you doing? Did your dopple-ganger come back from America instead of the real you? From what the article says you really are acting like a desperate man on a sinking ship (pun intended). So far you are the only one who sees how perfect Talbot is for Mary (on the show and for a big part of the shippers on the fandom). You cheering even harder for Talbot is actually putting me off him even faster then if I shipped you with Mary. Why would Granny Violet help you get Mary with Talbot? A man who, until his friend died, I had no emotional connection with. All he talked about was cars and Mary. I hope Granny comes back from France to whack you over the head and tell you to man up and confess to Mary how you feel already. And if Granny doesn't whack you over the head I hope Mary does, because you are not acting like a friend or a brother who only wants the best for her. Maybe you should get into a fight with Mary, where after you both sulk and/or ignore each other, and then you will realize you can't live without her and get over yourself. 

 

Yes!  I could totally see Violet verbally smacking some sense into Tom.  "Oh really?  Is it Henry, a man you barely know, whose feelings you care so much about?"

[Andorra]

After the latest spoilers, I think Julian Fellows is the one who needs brain surgery. What a terribly written love story Mary and Henry is! I think everyone saw potential in them in the CS, but what became out of it is just so awfully bad!

 

He showed us for a whole series, that Henry is not the right man for her, that they're not compatible in any way except maybe in the bedroom, that their life is not compatible and then he brings them together, because love (oh no excuse me, not love but TOM) conquers all?

 

And Julian Fellows really has the nerve to offend the Tom Branson fans yet again, after first killing his wife, then torture them by letting him stay at the Abbey with nothing else to do but whine that he doesn't belong, then torture them with Sarah Bunting, then torture them AGAIN with sending Tom away, then bring him back and give him NOTHING but being ridiculously invested in the love story of Mary with another man? And that's it??!! No own storyline, no resolution to his story other than maybe having a repair shop on the grounds of Downton. What an achievement! And no love interest except for maybe exchanging a few looks in the CS with the blonde editor and we're supposed to fill in the gaps.

 

No wonder Allen Leech was pissed. I thought "uh oh " when he said in an interview  about the film "he would have to bring back 22 people to make it. Good luck with that!" I know why now! And I know one person who will not be back, LOL!

 

I'm not sure I should watch it, but I will bring this to an end now. But I'm amazed at myself, that every year I came back in hope that Julian Fellows might have found something good to write and every year, at the end of the series, I'm astonished about the amount of crap storylines he produces.

 

Thank god it's over soon. And I'm definitely not going to watch anything written by Julian Fellows again. 

[Ravenya003]

Interesting opinion piece on the possibility of Tom/Mary (I especially like the comments on how the two of them were the "alphas" in their previous marriages, but have now found a more balanced rapport with each other).

 

Even with all this evidence to the contrary, I can't quite discount the possibility that Tom/Mary will happen. I mean, this time last year I had no hope whatsoever that Korra/Asami would become a couple, and then it happened and nearly broke the internet.

 

But that's part of JF's inability to write the relationship. Gillingham came off creepy because JF wrote him creepy. I mean, he was pretty much declaring himself Mr. Mary Crawley almost from his introduction. He dumped a woman he was already engaged to, Mabel Lane Fox, just so he could participate in the chase for Mary's Magical Vagina and as soon as he had sex with her, he was planning the wedding. He planned to fire his valet on her say so... He was hardly the most charming character ever written. 

 

My quick two cents: I'm convinced that Gillingham was ALWAYS meant to be a Romantic False Lead; someone Mary would have a brief dalliance with, but who would eventually lose to Blake, who was given more genuine moments with her (the pigs, holding George). But then of course the actor bailed, that particular endgame was scrapped, and the whole thing felt like a waste of time in hindsight. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by Ravenya003

[MissLucas]

Maggie Smith was on the Graham Norton show last week. She was marvelous - Norton looked quite intimidated. Asked about experiences with Harry Potter fandom she told the story of a little boy who had asked her if she had really been a cat. She gave him her best stern McGonagall/Dowager look and said 'Pull yourself together!' I wish I had a gif because that's exactly the reaction I hope Tom will get!

[Kirsty]

So Tom stupidly tells Mary about Marigold, even though Edith didn't even tell him, it's not his secret, and Mary can't be trusted with the information. You deserve to have your dinners cooked by Carson all week, Tom Branson!

 

And when Bertie finds out -- probably from Mary -- I bet he's most upset that Edith didn't feel she could trust him enough to tell him, when he was prepared to share the rest of his life with her. That's a pretty decent relationship conflict, in which I can see both sides. I bet Edith is building up to telling him the truth in the same episode in which he finds out from someone else. He surprised her with the proposal so she wasn't ready to tell him in that moment. And meantime she's been steeling herself to the task.

 

It's going to be a bit of a let-down if angry Tom in his office is yelling at Mr. Mason for letting the pigs escape into the kitchen garden or something! (By rights, he should be yelling at Julian Fellowes on behalf of the viewer.) But he's likely shouting at Mary. No wonder he's angry if he's the one who told her Edith's secret in the first place.

 

I'm curious to know what Mary is too stupid and stuck-up to see. I hope it's the truth.

 

 

Why is Tom so damn invested in Mary and Henry's love life?

 

Either he came back from America for Mary, and he's invested in her love life because he's in love with her, or he's not so much a character in his own right as a storytelling device. He's like a GPS system for Mary, giving her the right directions in an Irish accent. Maybe I should start calling him TomTom. Anyway fingers crossed that Violet survives her trip and that she's a Tom/Mary shipper who can cut through all this car racing nonsense.

[Lokiberry]

I don't know, you guys. In that promo when Tom says, "You always ruin everything", it better be about spilling the beans on Marigold, and not about ruining his wedding plans for Henry, because otherwise, someone is WAY over invested.

.

I'm just having a hard time believing that we're supposed to support the Crawley's efforts to deliver Mary bound and gagged to the alter to marry some piddling race car driver. There's got to be a twist in there somewhere. Perhaps it's delivered by Violet when she asks Tom the all important question: "Why do you care so much?".

[Andorra]

Either he came back from America for Mary, and he's invested in her love life because he's in love with her, or he's not so much a character in his own right as a storytelling device. He's like a GPS system for Mary, giving her the right directions in an Irish accent. Maybe I should start calling him TomTom. Anyway fingers crossed that Violet survives her trip and that she's a Tom/Mary shipper who can cut through all this car racing nonsense.

 

LOL about the "TomTom". 

 

I lost all hope. I wrote it before that there're two ways to interprete Violet's "he's the most sensible". One way would have been that she prefers him over Talbot and sees what the audience sees for Mary, but the other is unfortunately, that he is supposed to BE the most sensible and the only one who sees the real depth of love that Mary has for Talbot.

 

So I think Violet will come home to tell Mary the same and that will be the final nail in the coffin. If the Dowager will support the marriage, there's no escaping it. The audience HAS to believe what those two most popular characters tell us, right? Even though Julian Fellows is completely unable to show us on screen!

 

And yes,Tom is indeed nothing but a plot device. It's cruel and offensive to a character who was in the show from the very first season and who has been so popular with the audience. He will not get his own storyline this season, he will just smile happily when Mary marries Talbot, because that's what his fans wanted, right? They can't have expected something for himself, can they? 

[MissLucas]

"The family tries to convince Lady Mary that her future lies with Henry." That's just the promo monkeys monkeying around. Nobody except Tom is actually pushing Mary towards Henry. Quite the contrary - in last episode both Lord and Lady Grantham expressed doubts about him being the right choice. As did Anna and Mr Bates and the Dowager hasn't sounded particularly enthusiastic either. They would all have to make a complete turn around from their previous position and then they would have to convince Lady Mary of something she does not really want - piece of cake, really.

 

Nope, not buying it. I'm over here polishing the Veuve Cliquot bottle for the launch of HMS Brary.

[Andorra]

Nope, not buying it. I'm over here polishing the Veuve Cliquot bottle for the launch of HMS Brary.

 

LOL, I would LOVE to join you. Unfortunately I've read a comment from someone who saw episode 8 already and she made it sound as if Mary and Talbot is going to be a sure thing...

 

But maybe she is fooling us or fooling herself, since she never liked the idea of Brary.

[MissLucas]

That bottle of champagne will come in handy no matter what!

 

Seriously my world won't collapse is Brary isn't happening. Luckily I'm not that emotionally invested. If Edith gets her Happy End I'm okay. I look at Mary's arc not from a shipper's POV but from a writer's POV. If you look at the narrative structure Brary makes more sense than ...ahem... Heary (?) I keep bringing up the big catharsis for Mary - realizing Tom is the right choice has a lot more dramatic punch than giving in to Henry. And I think writing that denouement would be more satisfying but Sir Julian might think otherwise, it's his ship to sink after all. But he shall face the wrath of tumblr/twitter! He!

[Andorra]

Yep, I'll watch the CS with a bottle of alcohol, too. Either to celebrate or to drown my sorrows!

 

I'll be most sad about Tom being so misused by Fellows, but I should be used to it by now. It would be a wonderful Christmas surprise for me as a Tom fan, if Tom would actually get some significance in the last episode after 3 years of being overlooked and shoved aside storywise, but - as you say - my world won't collapse over it. 

 

I'm sure he'll get a happy ending after all. Probably a very afterthoughtish one, but at least happy. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by Andorra

[ZoloftBlob]

But then of course the actor bailed, that particular endgame was scrapped, and the whole thing felt like a waste of time in hindsight.

 

Wait... I didn't think the actor playing Gillingham or Blake bailed. I had the impression both were on board for season five and both got written out in season five (and Gillingham being dumped got more screen time than Mary falling in love or mild interest or whatever the deal is with Henry)

[Andorra]

Julian Ovenden actually made it sound in one interview as if he was pushed out because Matthew Goode signed on. He said something like "I was replaced for a better looking model". 

 

My impression is once they signed Matthew Goode, they turned Blake into Mary's best gay friend and got rid off him pretty quickly. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by Andorra

[RedWolf]

So Granny is my only hope for Tom to come back to himself. Even after all the spoilers and promo pics I still think that Brary is a go. Too much time has been invested into Tom and Mary together for it to come to nothing.  We know Julian Fellowes can write a believable love story (Rose/Atticus, Edith/Bertie, Mary/Matthew, and Sybil/Tom) and yet he is just not doing it so far with Henry Talbot and Mary. If Talbot is endgame that does not equal happiness and resolution in my books. I would rather have Mary single and Tom (maybe) with the editor than Mary with Henry and Tom single.

 

This is what I think or want to happen in episode 8 (this is not in any order and I will most likely be horribly wrong)

 

The Family is enjoying time with the children when Henry Talbot comes in. (Mary does not look happy about whoever walked in, in those pics) He gets invited to dinner (because the Crawley's are good hosts) and after dinner Henry accuses Mary of breaking up with him because of his prospects (instead of cars) which gets construed by Mary as "grubby little gold digger" which has Henry looking confused because men are clueless as to how their comments sound. They don't get back together at this point. (if they ever do)

 

Isobel and Lord Merton get married. Mary is a part of their wedding in some way. (as the Matron of honor, bridesmaid, whatever they called it back then.) I also predict Isobel has Robert or Tom give her away.

 

Tom gets into a fight with Mary about Talbot and blurts out about Marigold. Mary then confronts Edith about Marigold and they have their big fight in which insults are thrown across the room, then Edith tells Mary that she is too stupid and stuck up to see that Tom is in love with her. ok that last bit is just a dream of this Brary shipper.

 

Tom writes to Granny to help him with getting Mary and Talbot together, but instead of coming back to help him with his plan she comes back to whack some sense into his head. Because of this Granny realizes that the Family would fall apart without her so she needs to stay around a little longer.

 

Edith and Bertie have a falling out over Marigold but they get back together in the end.

 

Lady Shackleton and Henry come for Isobel and Lord Merton's reception. Henry makes a last ditch effort to get back with Mary and Mary is like no way jose.

[ZoloftBlob]

That was my impression as well, that Ovenden was just replaced, not that he quit the show or bailed.

 

Isobel and Lord Merton get married. Mary is a part of their wedding in some way.

 

Am I the only one who finds that odd? Not the marriage to Lord Merton but the idea that Isobel, who really hasn't been close to Mary (if you started watching in season five, would you even know how Mary and Isobel are linked?) would somehow want Mary as a part of her wedding?

[MissLucas]

Julian Ovenden actually made it sound in one interview as if he was pushed out because Matthew Goode signed on. He said something like "I was replaced for a better looking model". 

 

My impression is once they signed Matthew Goode, they turned Blake into Mary's best gay friend and got rid off him pretty quickly. 

In what universe is Matthew Goode better looking than Julian Ovenden? He's probably the bigger name and that's why they ended things with Blake. Which is a shame really - he was the only convincing suitor in that season.  (I wish I would finally catch Matthew Goode in something where he's allowed to shine. I've only seen him in TGW and DA and in both shows I couldn't see what all the hoopla was about.)

Edited November 3, 2015 by MissLucas

[photo fox]

Julian Ovenden actually made it sound in one interview as if he was pushed out because Matthew Goode signed on. He said something like "I was replaced for a better looking model".

 

Wow, that a rather impolitic thing for him to say, even if it was true. Geez...

 

Am I the only one who finds that odd? Not the marriage to Lord Merton but the idea that Isobel, who really hasn't been close to Mary (if you started watching in season five, would you even know how Mary and Isobel are linked?) would somehow want Mary as a part of her wedding?

I agree that it would seem strange for Isobel to want Mary the person in her wedding party, but I can see her being invited as a kind of stand-in for Matthew. Besides, who else does Isobel have to ask? Violet?

(I wish I would finally catch Matthew Goode in something where he's allowed to shine. I've only seen him in TGW and DA and in both shows I couldn't see what all the hoopla was about.)

I caught him in a cute but simple rom-com with Amy Adams. Leap Day? Leap Year? A very obvious by-the-numbers plot, but they had really great chemistry. The two of them fairly sparkled on the screen together.

[Ide]

I don't know, you guys. In that promo when Tom says, "You always ruin everything", it better be about spilling the beans on Marigold, and not about ruining his wedding plans for Henry, because otherwise, someone is WAY over invested.

.

Does he say that to Mary?

 

@Andorra: I agree with everything you said about Fellowes writing abilities. The Thomas Barrow storyline is shit, too.

[SusanSunflower]

IMHO, Goode shone in (the odd) Death Comes To Pemberley playing Wickham  -- he stole the centrality of Darcy (James Norton).  He was also impressive -- and impressive as an ensemble player as well as co-lead role -- in the 6 part Dancing on the Edge  (both 2013) . 

Edited November 3, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[MissLucas]

@photo fox, SusanSunflower

I will check out some of those, thanks!

[Andorra]

Best movie with Goode I saw was "The Imitation Game".It's mostly a Cumberbatch movie, but all the other actors were very well,too including Matthew Goode and Allen Leech. I loved that movie, it is very moving. 

[Hecate7]

I wonder what Mary is too "stupid and stuck up to see?"

I'm not sure who Tom is upset with?

I'm sure Bertie will come around with Edith. Not worried about those two love birds.

I do worry though that Andy is kicking in the door to help Barrow somehow. It would be a sad ending for his character to attempt suicide.

 

I speculate that Mary is "too stupid and stuck up to see" that Tom came back to Downton to be with her and is really in love with her. Alternatively, she's too stupid and stuck up to see that Edith has always wanted her approval and wanted to be her friend, and she's been absolutely awful to her pretty much all Edith's life.

Tom is probably upset with Mary because Mary ruined Edith's life--AGAIN, (I'm sure she will), ruined something Tom had going with Talbot, and possibly will also ruin some other situation involving Anna, Bates, or Thomas.

 

I'm not at all sure about Bertie. Things were different then. If he already suspected, and didn't mind, then that's one thing, but otherwise Marigold could be a deal-breaker.

 

I hope they don't kill off Thomas.

[MissLucas]

In historical reality Marigold would have been a dealbreaker - but this is Downton where convicts remain in service, assistance cooks who embarrass their betters in public get a tiny slap on the wrist and having sexual dalliances qualifies you to run an estate.

[SusanSunflower]

I suspect that Fellowes assumed that Goode would have chemistry with Dockerty ... because he's good at that -- chemistry generation. I'm not sure he's in Richard Gere territory.  Gere had an unusual knack of making his female costars look warm blooded, not just desirable, but desiring ... (I suspect its because they - the actors -- feel safe). As far as I can tell, this has not materialized in this pairing, thus far ... but they've had little script opportunity to generate any heat ... and no one wants a besotted Gillingham redux. 

Dockerty has been allowed little range as Mary and I haven't seen much range in the very few other things I've seen her in -- and -- I think Fellowes, on balance, wants her to be something cool, remote, pure.  Blech.  Mary's best moments have been when she broke that shell. I've said elsewhere I think direction is very controlled based on what Fellowes wants ... I think Stevens grew bored with being confined and reining it in. Who knows? Did Ovendon appear restless, ungrateful, did he question his character's motivation? I don't know. I don't think it would take much to set Fellowes off ... Did Ovendon get a once-in-a-lifetime offer and ask to be released?  Much of the younger cast was lucky to get such significant roles, his older cast is likely even more grateful to get such long-lasting and significant roles ... If gratitude and flattery are important to JF, Ovendon may have failed to satisfy. My guess is that Ovendon failed Fellowes in some way and/or Fellowes failed Ovendon (he certainly sounded enthusiastic about the part) ... and his character was written off to Poland ... 

As I've also said, I think either suitor could have worked -- Mary had more chemistry in her fear and loathing of Carlyle than she had with Gillingham, and then Blake got neutered. Testosterone matters. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[hafo]

"Convinced Mary's grandmother, Lady Violet, will be able to change her mind about Henry, Tom begs her to return from her trip to France."

Time to take a seat, Tom.

[Brn2bwild]

LOL, I would LOVE to join you. Unfortunately I've read a comment from someone who saw episode 8 already and she made it sound as if Mary and Talbot is going to be a sure thing...

But maybe she is fooling us or fooling herself, since she never liked the idea of Brary.

I suspect that it will appear as though Mary and Talbot are getting together, with just enough doubt that calling off the wedding (or engagement) in the CMS so she can be with Tom is entirely possible.

[hafo]

TOM THEORIES

 

1. Eager to begin his future as matchmaker/wedding planner, Tom is desperate for Henry and Mary to tie the knot. The most illustrious match of his career hangs in the balance, and if the wedding doesn’t happen soon the flower arrangements that he purchased with his own allowance may start to wither…

2. There’s only one obstacle in Tom’s master plan to usurp Mary’s position as Queen of Downton - Mary herself. Not satisfied being a mere joint agent, Tom has plotted to marry his sister-in-law off to someone entirely unsuitable in order to distract her from her work. But with Mary showing few signs of interest in her new suitor, Tom may have to resort to desperate measures…

3. Ever since his beloved wife Sybil died, Tom has been yearning for a new love. He has found that love in Henry Talbot, but a long distance romance has it’s difficulties. Luckily, there may be a way for Henry to live at Downton. Tom’s sister-in-law Mary seems to have fallen for the charming Talbot and it’s up to Tom to convince her she’s ready to commit…

Edited November 3, 2015 by hafo

[onthebrink03]

BWAHVO hafo.  Oh how I wish you were doing the writing for Downton.  Brilliant stuff and with much of the nonsense that Julian Fellows has wanted us to digest in the past few years, why not, eh?

Edited November 3, 2015 by onthebrink03

[Nellie]

In what universe is Matthew Goode better looking than Julian Ovenden? He's probably the bigger name and that's why they ended things with Blake. Which is a shame really - he was the only convincing suitor in that season. (I wish I would finally catch Matthew Goode in something where he's allowed to shine. I've only seen him in TGW and DA and in both shows I couldn't see what all the hoopla was about.)

I agree. It's too bad. If Mary isn't going to end up with Tom, then I would have preferred Blake over Talbot. I personally don't find Matthew Goode to be the cat's meow.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Nellie

[Nellie]

I don't know, you guys. In that promo when Tom says, "You always ruin everything", it better be about spilling the beans on Marigold, and not about ruining his wedding plans for Henry, because otherwise, someone is WAY over invested.

.

I'm just having a hard time believing that we're supposed to support the Crawley's efforts to deliver Mary bound and gagged to the alter to marry some piddling race car driver. There's got to be a twist in there somewhere. Perhaps it's delivered by Violet when she asks Tom the all important question: "Why do you care so much?".

Exactly. Why is Tom forcing this? What is in it for him? Why has his entire storyline revolved around forcing Mary and Henry to make a go of things? It's mind boggling and incredibly lazy writing, unless it really is a way to push aside his own feelings for Mary.

[Ravenya003]

Maggie Smith was on the Graham Norton show last week. She was marvelous - Norton looked quite intimidated. Asked about experiences with Harry Potter fandom she told the story of a little boy who had asked her if she had really been a cat. She gave him her best stern McGonagall/Dowager look and said 'Pull yourself together!' I wish I had a gif because that's exactly the reaction I hope Tom will get!

 

As requested, Lady Violet Crawley knocking sense into Tom:

 

 

"and ask yourself why you're so invested in Mary's love-life, hmm?"

 

Julian Ovenden actually made it sound in one interview as if he was pushed out because Matthew Goode signed on. He said something like "I was replaced for a better looking model". 

 

My impression is once they signed Matthew Goode, they turned Blake into Mary's best gay friend and got rid off him pretty quickly. 

 

Okay, I stand corrected! I had heard this went down quite differently, but now I'm doubly confused at what Fellowes is trying to achieve here. 

 

IMHO, Goode shone in (the odd) Death Comes To Pemberley playing Wickham  -- he stole the centrality of Darcy (James Norton).  He was also impressive -- and impressive as an ensemble player as well as co-lead role -- in the 6 part Dancing on the Edge  (both 2013) . 

 

I second Dancing on the Edge. I recall it got lukewarm reviews at the time (and it WAS rather slow-paced) but it was beautifully crafted, and with great acting across the board (plus I enjoyed watching Angel Coulby outshine Janet Montgomery again - in-joke for those who watched "Merlin"). 

[MissLucas]

As requested, Lady Violet Crawley knocking sense into Tom:

 

 

"and ask yourself why you're so invested in Mary's love-life, hmm?"

Fantastic! Thanks a bunch!

[Eolivet]

Okay, I stand corrected! I had heard this went down quite differently, but now I'm doubly confused at what Fellowes is trying to achieve here.

 

I don't read too much into what Ovenden said -- I think Fellowes never intended on making Blake the "lucky winner." After season 3, the articles were about casting Mary's new suitor. They offered the part to Tom Ellis (from "Miranda") who turned it down, and then to Cullen, who accepted it. Ovenden was an afterthought without a lot of fanfare -- he'd be the mid-season diversion. All the articles about Gillingham were "the new suitor to win Mary's heart." Then viewers balked, because it was too soon after Matthew's death. Fellowes did one of his famous U-turns during the season and stalled the story, dragging Gillingham and Blake along without much progress. Then Fellowes and Neame did interviews after season 4: they underestimated how much viewers missed Matthew, and they decided to (paraphrased) pump the brakes on Mary's suitors.

 

The problem for me is for Blake to be considered the victor, it would've meant Fellowes had to change his story -- and we know he doesn't change his story unless there's a loaded gun (or an expired contract) to his head. It was going to be Gillingham or Plan C (Plan G?). But because Fellowes also has the inability to let go of a story once he's started telling it (see: Green, Mr; and prison, Bates), season 5 was going to be about how Gillingham was all wrong for Mary. And since Ovenden was still contracted, they made him the plot device to make this happen.

 

I could very easily see the groundwork laid for Gillingham: Mary had a few emotional moments with him, where she showed vulnerability. She told him about Matthew, she wiped away tears when she read he was engaged, she had that moment with him at the end of the season 4 CS. He was from a similar background as Mary, with a failing estate (so he could be all in on Downton) and was going to throw over a fiancee he didn't love for Mary -- something Matthew never did.  Blake was only ever supposed to be "nice Carlisle" because that's how Fellowes intended him, and Fellowes doesn't change his mind.

 

So, I don't read Ovenden's "I was replaced with a newer model" as "I was supposed to be the endgame" but as others have said, "I was replaced with someone more famous." And I think Ovenden is irritated with it because he feels his time was wasted. But another reason I never believed Blake was supposed to be the winner: Ovenden walked from "Foyle's War" for a better career. And we all know how Fellowes feels about that. ;)

 

Mary's vulnerability is the number 1 reason I see Henry as being The One (along with Matthew Goode Is Famous Yay). She laughs and is pleasant with many people, but when she gets upset or angry, that's how we know she's invested. I haven't seen her haughtily protest she doesn't care about someone so much since Matthew. I don't think that's a coincidence.

[ZoloftBlob]

and was going to throw over a fiancee he didn't love for Mary -- something Matthew never did.

 

Why would he? The only time he had a fiance was when Mary was pointedly determined to marry Sir Richard, her own fiance of several *years*?

 

And in British society of the times, its Gillingham who comes off like the cad for dumping a woman he's made genuine arrangements with.

 

We're back to Fellowes's inflexibility as the problem - he can't adjust when something doesn't work right. Gillingham failed because he was written a bit creepy and desperate (and Henry seems that way as well, with his "we've been on a few chaperoned dates, when do I move in and change my name to Crawley?") and rather than just drop Tony, we get an entire season of slowly dumping Tony because Fellowes wants to wait for Matthew Goode to be available... and I was willing to be on board with that until Matthew Goode turned out to be quite the dud of a storyline. When most of the audience think *Tom* wants Henry as a boyfriend, it's not working.

[MissLucas]

When most of the audience think *Tom* wants Henry as a boyfriend, it's not working.

When you introduce a character who's a racing driver i.e. the prototype of the dashing hero/alpha male and that's the outcome something went horribly wrong, he!

One thing that strikes me as really odd is that in all the discussions about Henry nobody ever mentions George. It's one thing that the two haven't met yet but that nobody ever brings up the fact that a marriage between Henry and Mary would make him George's stepfather makes no sense. Obviously there was no time for that because we had to deal with the hospital merger.

Edited November 3, 2015 by MissLucas

[Nellie]

When you introduce a character who's a racing driver i.e. the prototype of the dashing hero/alpha male and that's the outcome something went horribly wrong, he!

One thing that strikes me as really odd is that in all the discussions about Henry nobody ever mentions George. It's one thing that the two haven't met yet but that nobody ever brings up the fact that a marriage between Henry and Mary would make him George's stepfather makes no sense. Obviously there was no time for that because we had to deal with the hospital merger.

Oh heavens! Don't even get me started on the "edge of my seat" hospital merger storyline! That's been a real nail biter, hasn't it?

I haven't even thought about George in all of this. I have to admit that I haven't really believed that Talbot is a viable enough candidate to have had the opportunity to meet George. But, I'm sure they will squeeze that in last minute, somewhere between Mr. Carson complaining about Mrs Hughes serving his salmon on cold plates again and Daisy acting like an imbecile over nothing of importance.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Nellie

[ZoloftBlob]

One thing that strikes me as really odd is that in all the discussions about Henry nobody ever mentions George. It's one thing that the two haven't met yet but that nobody ever brings up the fact that a marriage between Henry and Mary would make him George's stepfather makes no sense. Obviously there was no time for that because we had to deal with the hospital merger.

 

We don't have any talk about George or any concern about who will be his future father because JF is still mad over someone leaving the show and doesn't want any mention of that someone's character despite how unnatural and weird it seems. Why they didn't just cast a kid that was a dead ringer for Dockery, I don't know. What I do know is that the audience really loved all the scenes where Sybil is referenced and since those didn't detract from Tom's finding his new love in Henry.... it smacks of pettyness and it just irritates the audience (and not the someone it's likely directed at)

[Andorra]

Yes, it's becoming a running gag how Fellows manages to avoid any sentimentality when Matthew gets mentioned. We should start a drinking game!

[SusanSunflower]

yes, let's not mention George and Isobel ... and / or Mary and Isobel ... fatherless children and grieving women and the utter lack of developed relationship between any of them ... Even Cora and Isobel -- as mothers who have lost children -- might have been developed ... George is a prop that Fellowes forgets about most of the time .... I am always amazed at how shallow my understanding of what makes any of these people "tick" remains ... it's all dresses and dinners and rivalries ... 

Speaking of chemistry, though, I think Edith -- or rather Laura Carmichael -- has always had rather effortless chemistry with everyone (at least once Sybil died and stopped eclipsing her). Rosamund and Elizabeth McGovern together manage reasonably well in creating a sense that these characters are family members - rather than fellow passengers on a voyage ...  Cora or McGovern as Mary or Edith's mother -- seriously not.so.much. 

 

eta: because I must -- Isobel would have been obvious person for Edith to have consulted at some point about her pregnancy. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Kirsty]

When you introduce a character who's a racing driver i.e. the prototype of the dashing hero/alpha male and that's the outcome something went horribly wrong, he!

I maintain that Mary isn't suited to the dashing hero type, so that was the writer's first mistake. Matthew wasn't dashing; he was a nice middleclass man who stared at her like a slack-jawed yokel for the duration of their first scene.

 

Edith on the other hand, could use a dashing hero in her life. Some wealthy American industrialist who flies planes. He could sweep her off her feet while she keeps him grounded, so to speak.

 

Anyway, here's a slightly extended version of that trailer:

 

http://however-whatever-whenever.tumblr.com/post/132477903181/downton-abbey-series-6-finale-this-sunday

 

Tom says "Like all bullies, you're a coward." He's likely speaking to Mary, who bullies her sister. And I guess the show is making out that breaking up with Henry was an act of cowardice. They'd only kissed twice, for god's sake! Who really cares about Henry "Cars are my friend" Talbot. At this rate, I'm surprised Tom wasn't standing beside them watching while they kissed, all "Again, please."

 

Edited to add:

No, after hearing that, I'm very sure it must be Thomas to whom he's talking. Thomas is the only person in the house who HAS been a bully all along and Tom knows it.

Oooh, that's a good theory; I like it.

 

You don't need to bully someone *into* anything -- except misery. Bullying is just repeatedly treating someone like dirt because you can.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Kirsty

[Andorra]

Tom says "Like all bullies, you're a coward." He's likely speaking to Mary, who bullies her sister. And I guess the show is making out that breaking up with Henry was an act of cowardice. They'd only kissed twice, for god's sake! Who really cares about Henry "Cars are my friend" Talbot. At this rate, I'm surprised Tom was standing beside them watching while they kissed, all "Again, please."

 

I'd never believe Tom talking that way to Mary. And she is neither a bully nor a coward. She has been a bitch to Edith sometimes, but when please has she every bullied Edith into something? Or anyone else?

Tom sounds absolutely disgusted and he will never be that disgusted with his best friend Mary. He loves her, platnoically or not!

 

No, after hearing that, I'm very sure it must be Thomas to whom he's talking. Thomas is the only person in the house who HAS been a bully all along and Tom knows it. I bet Thomas has overheard something about Marigold, goes to the agent's office to seek out Tom and wants to pressure him in typical Thomas fashion into letting him stay at Downton, by threatening to reveal the truth about Marigold. 

 

But Thomas motiviation is desperation mostly and Tom's rant might be the last trigger to a suicide attempt. 

[Eolivet]

We don't have any talk about George or any concern about who will be his future father because JF is still mad over someone leaving the show and doesn't want any mention of that someone's character despite how unnatural and weird it seems.

 

Or is it because children of aristocrats were mostly props to be raised by nannies and starched and ironed to see their mothers every day for an hour for tea? And that men of that time in that tax bracket likely had very little say in raising a child, so as long as the child was legitimate and had a name.

 

I mean, Mary could marry the stable boy and the nanny would still raise George.

 

Andorra, I don't hear disgust from Tom in that last clip (although you know him better than I do) -- I hear frustration and upset. Thus, I could easily believe he's talking to Mary about her intentionally sabotaging things with Henry. I think it's feasible if you believe Tom is thinking that Mary has a second chance at happiness -- as he would dearly love to have -- and she's just tossing it away. If Tom is a hopeless romantic, he'd want nothing more than to have someone love him again, and to see Mary act so cavalierly might upset him. Not for any "Mary + Henry = twu wuv 5eva" reason, but more for a "You lost love once, and you dare to throw it away again?!" reason. Or something.

 

Or he could be talking about Thomas. I kind of love the idea that Thomas would use Marigold for blackmail potential -- even if I don't think Fellowes is nearly that clever.

[photo fox]

I absolutely would call Mary a bully, but I can't imagine TomTom ever speaking to a woman that way. I mean, he only ever slightly raised his voice to Sarah Bunting, and she was horrible.

So I agree, it's likely Thomas. Although I maintain it's still out of character and plot-driven.

eta: George has gotten less focus than the revolving door of dogs. So I don't think a lack of a George/Henry scene is indicative of anything other than JF's complete disregard for his character and the maternal side of Mary. It's striking how much more story and airtime the other two children have received, when in some ways, George is the central member of the family and the central figure in the Downton story.

[SusanSunflower]

Fwiw, Tom has perfectly reasonable (even selfish personal reasons) for wanting Mary to marry someone he deems worthy of her and Downton ... He's emotionally invested in the whole family and the estates.  I'm doubtful he would consider himself "worthy" of her hand -- even if he were desperately, madly in love with her -- which is not what I'm hearing described. It would have been a great drama to watch Tom -- madly in love with Mary -- being the good friend, good "brother" -- steering her towards happiness with someone else ... but that's not what I'm hearing described  (Best Friend's Wedding, anyone?) .

This all sounds very Noah's Ark -- everyone including Tom needing to be mated up -- two-by-two for there to be a happy ending. 

I'd even applaud a truly soapy drama in which both Mary and Tom are desperately concealing their TRUE FEELINGS ... Again, that's not what it sounds like -- Is that even a remote possibility?  Tom -- sighing deeply and pining for Mary would be a pretty sight ...  More Fellowes under-statement, under-development, tastefulness? Mary secretly pining for Tom, similarly. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[MissLucas]

I don't think George gets sidelined because of some petty feud. And whilst it's true aristocratic children were mostly raised by nannies it still strikes me as odd that nobody discusses the fact that they are talking about the future stepfather of the heir. A position that would l have at least emotional ramifications for George even in a time where fathers were remote figures. Also odd: Henry never expresses the slightest interest in George. The later I could handwave away with different mentalities and Downton for once trying to be historical accurate. Unfortunately we had the scene with Bertie Pelham blessing Marigold (apparently that was not scripted but a genius improv). I've also noted something similar with Miss Bunting who insisted that she had deep feelings for Tom yet never ever showed an inkling of interest for his daughter.

 

And yes, I would also call Mary a bully and I can totally see Tom losing it with her because he loves her - only someone you love can make you that angry (in romantic fiction I mean - I'd rather not think that I have deep feelings for every person who makes me angry). Tom never loved Miss Bunting (for obvious reasons) hence no shouting.

[sark1624]

I think that he is yelling to Mary, if the info is correct, he is the person who tells Mary about Marigold origins, i am guessing when he do that he also asks Mary to be very carefull and supportive of Edith on this situation, considering that Bertie prospects have changed. If later Mary sabotages the relation betwen Edith and Bertie with this info i think that Tom would be very angry and frustated with Mary because she betrayed his confidance. Also in that time he is irritated for all the Henry/Mary stuff.

 

Also if we see the disposition of him in the office is clearly that the other person is close to the desk of the office, if is Thomas in the office it would have been close to the door and Tom in the desk, meaning that he let Mary enters first and she took the desk place and he the door.

[ZoloftBlob]

Or is it because children of aristocrats were mostly props to be raised by nannies and starched and ironed to see their mothers every day for an hour for tea? And that men of that time in that tax bracket likely had very little say in raising a child, so as long as the child was legitimate and had a name.

 

Yet we see Robert genuinely enjoying getting on the floor and playing with Sybbie, who actually asked Tom if Sybbie could stay with them... I mean, I totally agree it was a standard for the time for children to be seen and not heard but then we have the example of Sybbie and Robert. And I'm pretty sure Isobel isn't an aristocrat and she hasn't been in the same room with her only living blood relative in years.

 

I've also noted something similar with Miss Bunting who insisted that she had deep feelings for Tom yet never ever showed an inkling of interest for his daughter.

 

In retrospect that was a little odd, wasn't it?

[TyranAmiros]

There's a few problems I have with it being Thomas. First, there's absolutely know set-up for it. Thomas has been more absent than anyone but Spratt and Denker in the Marigold storyline. We know he's conniving--why not foreshadow it a bit? Second, Thomas and Tom haven't interacted in forever. Why would Thomas ever trust Tom with the information? Why wouldn't he go straight to Mary, with whom he has interacted?

Third, I can't think of a convincing scenario in which Tom is shouting at Thomas. Dressing down in a cold, dispassionate way, yes, but not angry like that with him. Tom seems way too invested in that scene for it to be addressed to a servant like Thomas. And what would the subject be? Marigold isn't a surprise to him (and he'd probably be taking that out on Mary more than Thomas). He knows Mary is not certain about Talbot. Mary and Edith will have it out, and Tom may be in the cross-fire, but why would Tom take that out on Thomas?

Fourth, it's too passionate for Thomas' story this season. Everything about Thomas this season is isolating and distancing, lacking emotion beyond a coldness that the world is ending and the safety net collapsing. Everyone else moving on with Thomas being stuck. It's certainly building up to his suicide (attempt) but how does Tom's reaction fit Thomas' storyline? If they were friends, certainly, but there's no preexisting emotional connection between Tom and Thomas to play off.

[ZoloftBlob]

it's too passionate for Thomas' story this season. Everything about Thomas this season is isolating and distancing, lacking emotion beyond a coldness that the world is ending and the safety net collapsing. Everyone else moving on with Thomas being stuck. It's certainly building up to his suicide (attempt) but how does Tom's reaction fit Thomas' storyline? If they were friends, certainly, but there's no preexisting emotional connection between Tom and Thomas to play off.

 

In fact they were never friendly.

 

Although the idea that Thomas is stuck while everyone else is moving forward is actually pretty compelling... hopefully we'll see this play out.