Man of Steel (2013)

[lion10]

It figures, Snyder hears fandom complaining about the disaster porn finale of the first movie so he features 20 minutes of bat's-eye-view flashbacks to the same destruction.

 

Isn't that him acknowledging how terrifying the final battle would be from a civilian's viewpoint?  I thought the scene where we get a street-level view of Zod's heat vision was pretty effective in making that point.  

 

And why are people so upset about the collateral damage?  Superman was very inexperienced and was fighting someone way more experienced than him and who was bred to fight who was fighting to kill.  His priorities in order of importance were not getting killed by Zod, stopping Zod from committing xenocide ("I'm going to make them suffer, Kal. These humans you've adopted, I will take them all from you one by one"), and then avoiding civilian casualties and he barely managed to accomplish the first one.  No shit there's going to be collateral damage, that's what happens when gods fight.

Edited July 23, 2015 by lion10

[JessePinkman]

Isn't that him acknowledging how terrifying the final battle would be from a civilian's viewpoint?  I thought the scene where we get a street-level view of Zod's heat vision was pretty effective in making that point.  

 

And why are people so upset about the collateral damage?  Superman was very inexperienced and was fighting someone way more experienced than him and who was bred to fight who was fighting to kill.  His priorities in order of importance were not getting killed by Zod, stopping Zod from committing xenocide ("I'm going to make them suffer, Kal. These humans you've adopted, I will take them all from you one by one"), and then avoiding civilian casualties and he barely managed to accomplish the first one.  No shit there's going to be collateral damage, that's what happens when gods fight.

 

I think if they'd presented it like that the backlash wouldn't have been as loud. But they also had Lois and Superman kissing (and her saying a really terrible and inappropriate line) in what is basically the Ground Zero of Metropolis. And the film ended on too joyous of a note considering the shear amount of damage done to Metropolis and Smallville, IMO. We also didn't actively see Superman try to save any individual civilians (that I can recall) until right before he killed Zod. I think seeing him do some small scale saving would have helped the perception of that fight immensely.

[Kel Varnsen]

 We also didn't actively see Superman try to save any individual civilians (that I can recall) until right before he killed Zod. I think seeing him do some small scale saving would have helped the perception of that fight immensely.

There was one part of that big fight that always stands out for me. Zod and Superman are in Metropolis fighting and street level. Zod throws a tanker truck at Superman, and instead of superman trying to catch it or stop it somehow, he just jumps over it and lets it crash into the back of a building and explode. 

[benteen]

Agreed.  I had no issue with how destructive the battle was.  That's exactly what would happen when two powerful beings clashed in a major metropolitan city.  But the fact that they didn't show Superman making an effort to save any of these people until the very end is what was damning. 

 

It makes me wonder if they just didn't come up with the plot to this film based on that backlash.

[lion10]

There was one part of that big fight that always stands out for me. Zod and Superman are in Metropolis fighting and street level. Zod throws a tanker truck at Superman, and instead of superman trying to catch it or stop it somehow, he just jumps over it and lets it crash into the back of a building and explode.

I'd like to point out that the building in question was an empty of people parking garage. It wasn't like it was a skyscraper or an apartment complex. And again, if you're in a life or death fight with someone who's stronger than you and is more experienced than you and unlike the Avengers, it's just you fighting them, how much breathing room are you going to have?

[Bruinsfan]

I don't know that Zod was actually stronger than Clark; the latter had years of experience developing his powers to the former's hours, and frankly I suspect Henry Cavill can press multiples of the weight Michael Shannon can. Obviously, having the training and ruthless determination to fight would be huge advantages for Zod, but I wish the fight had shown concern for bystanders as one of the disadvantages hampering Clark.

[CMH1981]

Do we know what the timeframe was from the time Clark snapped Zod's neck to Clark showing up at the Planet?  I mean after all that city-wide destruction and whatnot, it just seemed like Metropolis recovered really, really quickly.

[lion10]

I don't know that Zod was actually stronger than Clark; the latter had years of experience developing his powers to the former's hours, and frankly I suspect Henry Cavill can press multiples of the weight Michael Shannon can. Obviously, having the training and ruthless determination to fight would be huge advantages for Zod, but I wish the fight had shown concern for bystanders as one of the disadvantages hampering Clark.

IIRC, Zod (and Faora) was genetically engineered to be a Kryptonian warrior while Clark is a natural born Kryptonian so even though there's a size difference between the two, Zod should be stronger.

[Kel Varnsen]

IIRC, Zod (and Faora) was genetically engineered to be a Kryptonian warrior while Clark is a natural born Kryptonian so even though there's a size difference between the two, Zod should be stronger.

Wasn't there also some deal where Superman had lived under a yellow sun for so much longer that he had a strength advantage because of that though?

[benteen]

You know, I really don't think they did Zod any favors by having him lose to Jor-El in the beginning of the movie.

[Jediknight]

That, plus "How can we add Batman to this?"

Good old DC motto.  It's like Marvel's old motto of "How can we add Wolverine to this?"

 

Wasn't there also some deal where Superman had lived under a yellow sun for so much longer that he had a strength advantage because of that though?

While he would have a strength advantage, he's Superman he always holds back.  He uses as much force as is required, and no more than that.  It would have been nice if in that fight we would have seen Superman do more of what he does to defeat Zod, outsmart him.  He showed a flash of it when his first attack was to break Zod's helmet.  Bring it up in Batman vs Superman, Supes is a genius.

[nksarmi]

I think if they'd presented it like that the backlash wouldn't have been as loud. But they also had Lois and Superman kissing (and her saying a really terrible and inappropriate line) in what is basically the Ground Zero of Metropolis. And the film ended on too joyous of a note considering the shear amount of damage done to Metropolis and Smallville, IMO. We also didn't actively see Superman try to save any individual civilians (that I can recall) until right before he killed Zod. I think seeing him do some small scale saving would have helped the perception of that fight immensely.

I complained about that kiss at the time - such a bad place to put it.  I still like the movie, but that doesn't mean it didn't have some flaws.

[AD35]

 

And why are people so upset about the collateral damage?  Superman was very inexperienced and was fighting someone way more experienced than him and who was bred to fight who was fighting to kill.  His priorities in order of importance were not getting killed by Zod, stopping Zod from committing xenocide ("I'm going to make them suffer, Kal. These humans you've adopted, I will take them all from you one by one"), and then avoiding civilian casualties and he barely managed to accomplish the first one.  No shit there's going to be collateral damage, that's what happens when gods fight.

 

The criticism regarding for that particular moment in the movie has to be the result of comparison with Christopher Reeves's Superman (and Terrance Stamp's Zod). Reeve's version had several years of experience using and knowing his powers and limitations.  Stamp's Zod was content to rule Earth and largely leave it as it was.  Cavill's Superman didn't have the luxury of time to figure out an alternative way of defeating Zod. And Shannon's Zod made it quite clear that Metropolis (as well as Gotham City) and elsewhere on Earth was going to be wiped out to make way for a new Krypton. In such a situation it's literally kill or be killed.  And what would be a realistic alternative to that scenario?

[MarkHB]

In the pantheon of superheroes, Superman is the most recognized and revered character of all time. Clark Kent/Kal-El is a young twenty-something journalist who feels alienated by powers beyond his imagination. Transported years ago to Earth from Krypton, a highly advanced, distant planet, Clark struggles with the ultimate question – "Why am I here?" Shaped by the values of his adoptive parents Martha and Jonathan Kent, Clark discovers having extraordinary abilities means making difficult decisions. When the world is in dire need of stability, an even greater threat emerges. Clark must become a Man of Steel, to protect the people he loves and shine as the world's beacon of hope - Superman.

Cast:

Henry Cavill : Clark Kent / Kal-El

Amy Adams : Lois Lane

Michael Shannon : General Zod

Kevin Costner : Jonathan Kent

Diane Lane : Martha Kent

Laurence Fishburne : Perry White

Antje Traue : Faora-Ul

Ayelet Zurer : Lara Lor-Van

Russell Crowe : Jor-El

Directed by Zack Snyder.

Official site

[Eegah]

Also, it really wasn't good for Supes that just one year later we saw freaking GODZILLA showing far more consideration for civilians. And I'm 90% sure all the focus on evacuating people in the climax of Age of Ultron was a direct response to Mr. "I'll throw Zod right into a gas station, what could go wrong?".

[lion10]

Also, it really wasn't good for Supes that just one year later we saw freaking GODZILLA showing far more consideration for civilians. And I'm 90% sure all the focus on evacuating people in the climax of Age of Ultron was a direct response to Mr. "I'll throw Zod right into a gas station, what could go wrong?".

Holy shit everyone, do you guys not realize that the fight between Zod and Superman was for the very existence of the human species? Zod was planning on killing every single human. If Superman tried to take the fight out of Metropolis, there's a good chance Zod would've started wiping out Metropolis' citizens. Zod didn't care about human casualties and there's a good chance that he wanted to kill as many people as possible during the fight.

And about The Avengers. I'm a fan of the MCU, no question but I think Marvel goes out of its way to absolve it's heroes of causing collateral damage. In his rampages Hulk's never killed a single innocent? Really? Then why the constant angst bullshit? How many people were killed in Sokovia because of Tony's monumental fuck up? Has he been held accountable or did he part with the team and SHIELD on good terms? And what about the death toll of the Chutari's attack on NYC? Are any of those deaths really concentrated on by Marvel in its movies? At least the DCCU is building a movie on the aftermath of MoS.

And the circumstances of Superman and the Avengers are very different. The Avengers are a full team whereas Superman is one person. They have more flexibility in their movements because of that. A fair comparison would be if Thor and Odin had a death match in the middle of NYC and Odin was concentrating solely on killing Thor. What would be the collateral damage then?

[Joe]

Also, it really wasn't good for Supes that just one year later we saw freaking GODZILLA showing far more consideration for civilians. And I'm 90% sure all the focus on evacuating people in the climax of Age of Ultron was a direct response to Mr. "I'll throw Zod right into a gas station, what could go wrong?".

There's always been a focus in the MCU about avoiding civilian casualties. Look at the Avengers, when Cap directs the cops to help with the evacuation. In Thor, Thor is prepared to sacrifice himself to keep everyone else safe. So I didn't think the bits in AOU were directed at MOS.

[Eegah]

With the new Honest Trailer for the Fantastic Four movies bringing up The Incredibles, I realized the perfect encapsulation of everything I found wrong with this Superman comes in the scene where Syndrome saves some people from being killed by a gasoline tank, and then thoughtlessly tosses it behind him where there may well be some other people. Yeah, I really can't see this guy giving the World of Cardboard speech. He'd just rip it up and go on from there.

[Raja]

There's always been a focus in the MCU about avoiding civilian casualties. Look at the Avengers, when Cap directs the cops to help with the evacuation. In Thor, Thor is prepared to sacrifice himself to keep everyone else safe. So I didn't think the bits in AOU were directed at MOS.

Beyond that Captain America and the Black Widow's assignment was as a final shield for the police while the big three were the offensive force. Then their was the kid in The First Avenger saying he could swim when Cap stopped his pursuit of an escaping Hydra agent and was about to rescue the innocent.

[beetnemesis]

This move just made me feel good ~ by the end as I walked out of the theater, I felt awesome - 'this was just so epic on so many levels!' And I really, really wanna see more of this! And maybe someday soon the Man of Steel and the Dark Knight can meet up :) - that would be insanely awesome.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I enjoyed MOS and had no problem with Supes punching Zod's ass allover the city.

They had no interest in sharing Earth, hence the World Engine.

Hope Batman gets his clock cleaned next.

[MarkHB]

I've seen posts, here and elsewhere, decrying the idea that the people of Earth are apparently not universally accepting and adoring Superman in BvS, the way they did in all prior renditions.  I see it this way:

 

• 1938: Kal-L of Earth-2, the Siegel and Schuster original, gains his powers upon reaching maturity, the powers are initially at a much lower level than we're used to seeing, and he immediately goes to work fighting bank robbers and corrupt members of the 1%.  The people love him.
• Fifties: Kal-El of Earth-1 has an initial career as Superboy, and is seen as heroic and benign before ever becoming Superman.  The people love him.
• 70's and 80's: Chris Reeve movies and the John Byrne post-Crisis reboot.  Similar to the above.  The people love him.
• Man of Steel: The first inkling that the people of Earth have that there are aliens at all isn't Superman saving people from fires, it's Zod's creepy all-languages-at-once broadcast.  This is followed by Zod trying to Krypto-form Earth into a place not terribly friendly to humans, and he and an alien who had been hiding in our midst for years having a battle that took out a good chunk of a major city.  Plus, the powerful and the One-Percenters aren't nearly as laid-back as they were in children's stories in 1938, and they also stir the pot of public opinion.  The people do not necessarily love him.

[beetnemesis]

Amazing film and and very well made 110% action and well worth the watch and I look at it as one step closer to The Justice League :)