Rumplestiltskin: Apparently He's Part of Every Fairy Tale Ever

[Shanna Marie]

As the person who has actually read the work in question, I am probably the only person in this conversation who is qualified to judge (since it hasn't been published yet), and no, this is not self-indulgent fan fiction. It is not taking anyone else's intellectual property and doing anything with it. It's nowhere near anything like 50 shades or the OUAT characters go to high school. It's merely taking an aspect of a character that's not unique to this show -- immortality -- and a few superficial traits that come from the actor who plays the character, and using that as a jumping-off point for something totally different. It's not unusual for authors to be inspired by something and use it to create something entirely new or to mentally "cast" a favorite actor as a character. That doesn't make it fanfic. If you haven't read the book, you can't tell me I'm wrong about whether or not it's fanfic. I have read the book, and it most definitely is not.

And now I'm very glad that I didn't name the author or book if that's the way someone is going to respond because I wouldn't want to taint the book with that mindset or have people looking for it. I merely found it kind of fun that I recognized it (which I don't think even viewers would unless they knew the author and who her favorite character is), and it brought up something I thought was interesting that the show hasn't addressed -- the ramifications of immortality and relationships.

[kitticup]

Lol!  If someone just said what do you think of when I say a immortal Scottsman, I would say Connor Mccloud, not Rumple.  I can see an Author having an actor in mind when they are creating a character.  If Carylye was the inspiration that is great because if it hits big and becomes a movie he might get the part.

Edited July 2, 2016 by kitticup

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, kitticup said:

If someone just said what do you think of when I say a immortal Scottsman, I would say Connor Mccloud, not Rumple.

Yeah, this show didn't originate the idea of an immortal Scotsman who deals in antiquities. I think this story actually was more similar in dealing with immortality to Highlander than to Once, since there was all that angst about living so long, and "we can't be together because you'll age and die and I won't, and I won't be able to bear watching you die, and you'll resent me when you keep getting older and I don't" stuff. That's never once come up with Rumple, has it? The years haven't worn heavily on him. He's not ready to die like a mortal man -- in fact, he's fighting to stay powerful and immortal. He doesn't seem to be concerned that Belle will theoretically grow old and die (if the series ever moves faster than a month or two per season) while he stays the same, and Belle doesn't seem to have figured this out.

I would say that I didn't picture Robert Carlyle from the description in the book until the author said something on Twitter that suddenly made it click, so even when an author uses fantasy mental casting to write, readers are going to form their own mental images. Unless the reader knows the author's fantasy casting or is obsessed with the same actor and mentally casting him in everything she reads, the reader will never have the exact same picture of the character that the author had, no matter how specific the description.

[AnotherCastle]

There's also the book 'Uprooted' (won the 2016 Nebula Award for Best Novel) that took a bit of inspiration from Rumple/rumbelle: https://www.reddit.com/r/YAwriters/comments/476y90/ama_naomi_novik_author_of_uprooted_the_temeraire/d0avb8g

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, AnotherCastle said:

There's also the book 'Uprooted' (won the 2016 Nebula Award for Best Novel) that took a bit of inspiration from Rumple/rumbelle: https://www.reddit.com/r/YAwriters/comments/476y90/ama_naomi_novik_author_of_uprooted_the_temeraire/d0avb8g

That's interesting. I never would have seen that in that book, which shows you that an author can be inspired by other characters in some other property and use it to create something without it being obvious "fanfic." (And incidentally, I was sitting next to her when she won the Nebula. But we never got into discussing OUAT -- we got more into the folklore that inspired the book, plus the idea of the forest as usually being a safe, happy place and corrupting that.)

[Rumsy4]

I've been checking out a general ouat tumblr blog that posts anonymous views on Hook, Regina, and Rumple from their respective fans. The entries on Rumple are ... interesting to say the least. One post claims he never hurt Belle or Bae even when he was at his darkest. The MacGuffin behind the whole show is the fact that he let his son to fall through a portal into a new world alone. As to his treatment of Belle, it is disrespectful at the very least, and abusive at worst. I don't what show some people are watching. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

One post claims he never hurt Belle or Bae even when he was at his darkest. The MacGuffin behind the whole show is the fact that he let his son to fall through a portal into a new world alone. As to his treatment of Belle, it is disrespectful at the very least, and abusive at worst. I don't what show some people are watching. 

I guess if you're drawing very fine lines and being very technical and pedantic, he didn't do anything specifically aimed at harming them. He never struck Bae, that I recall, and didn't use magic on him to harm him the way he has so many others. Letting him go through the portal would probably fall more into the category of neglect. I guess the real-world equivalent would be planning to move with your kid, letting him get on the plane and then chickening out at the last second and letting a teenager be sent to a foreign country on his own. That would likely get a parent before a judge.

As for Belle, their relationship started with him imprisoning her in the dungeon. It wasn't even like the movie, where she got a reasonably nice room and was treated like a guest rather than forced to work as a servant. But if you're drawing those fine lines, you could say that was before they were in a relationship, so it doesn't count as abuse within the relationship. However, Dear Abby just reprinted her list of warning signs of abusers, and much of Rumple's treatment of Belle fits into those warning signs. There's "Controlling," which I would think that erasing her memories, freezing her, or putting her to sleep so she can't object to what he's doing would count as. Then there's "Isolation" -- "tries to isolate you from family and friends; accuses people who are your supporters of 'causing trouble.'" Rumple said he would help Belle find her father after the curse, didn't tell her that he knew her father was in town, and threw away her posters looking for her father. Then there's that putting her to sleep to keep her away from others, keeping her away from working with the fairies to prevent the shattered sight curse. Another is "Past Battering" -- I think murdering the previous wife counts here. Since Dear Abby lives in the real world, there's no category for impersonating a friend in order to trick her and get information about her life. I don't know that Rumple has done anything to Belle that would get a domestic abuse conviction in court, but I think he's done enough that domestic abuse shelters would encourage Belle to get out and would work with her on creating a safe escape plan.

[Amerilla]

On Friday, July 01, 2016 at 0:47 PM, Shanna Marie said:

But the book did deal with the immortality in a way that the series hasn't yet acknowledged, which is that people will age and die around him. We haven't seen any relationships between Milah and Cora. Did he get close to anyone in that time and lose them? In all his chasing after Bae, he doesn't seem to have considered that he might not be aging and dying, but his son was mortal. With Belle, he's been constantly seeking ways to maintain his power and immortality without apparently considering that she's going to grow old and die while he remains the same, and now there's baby Damien, who might also grow up, grow old, and die (unless there's something funky going on with his genes, since his father was the Dark One). At this show's glacial pace, there's no real way of dealing with that in the present, and there's that pesky problem of mortal actors, so both of them are aging at the same pace, but that is one story the flashbacks would allow them to cover, as in one episode they could zoom through a lifetime and show the other character aging and then dying. But then I suppose that would require Rumple to care about someone other than himself, and they've made such a big deal out of how different his love for Belle is that it would look like a retcon if he had any other love in the past.

Watching the finale of Penny Dreadful a couple of weeks ago, I was really struck by Dorian Gray's finale monologue:  "Do you not yet comprehend the wicked secret of the immortal? All age and die, save you. All rot and fall to dust, save you. Any child you bear becomes a crone and perishes before your eyes. Any lover withers and shrinks into incontinence and bent, toothless senility. While you, only you, never age. Never tire. Never fade. Alone. But after a time you'll lose the desire for passion entirely, for connection with anyone. Like a muscle that atrophies from lack of use. And one day you'll realize you've become like them. Beautiful and dead. You have become a perfect, unchanging portrait of yourself." PD's Dorian is an ancient, beyond Wilde's original concept. He's seen human history unfold before his eyes, and his takeaway is that it's really loud and really boring. 

In true Once form, they don't even give Rumpel that to chew on. There need be no crones, no toothless seniles. In S2, they harped on Rumpel being able to "turn back the clock" for his loved ones: he could turn Bae back into a 14 year old for the ultimate do-over; when Lacey asks if keep her young and beautiful, he assures her he can. That's also his deal with Smee: you get me the magic bean and I'll turn you back into a little boy, screw me over and I'll spin the dial forward until you turn into dust. The only "tension" was in whether he'd do that to Bae or Belle against their will. With Bae, he didn't, so the issue is moot. With Belle, as you note, the plot creeps at such a snail-pace, the issue is moot. 

When we think about the big, unexplored parts of the Once-iverse, age and time issues are high up on my list. Everyone but Emma and Henry has a conflict between what we might call their "functional" age and the number of years they've physically existed. Snow, Charming, Belle and Regina are all +28 years. Hook's holding up pretty well for a multi-centenarian. What does it mean when the clock starts up again? Does it mean anything? How do "parents" bridge the gap to their same-age "children"? It's particularly egregious with Nealfire: what does it mean to be stuck, fully-cognizant, in the purgatory of adolescent boyhood for a century or more and then drop into an unfamiliar world to age normally with no known support or guidance? Instead, it all becomes plot spackle. It's a dab of wet, white goo that holds different parts of the timeline together and lets the writers expand the timeline using a main character like Rumpel as a bridge - part of every fairy-tale ever, apparently - while allowing the main cast to remain Monthly-Juice-Cleanse young and pretty.    

Nothing we saw in Spinner!Rumpel indicated that he cared about immortality. It's just something that came along with being the Dark One. (It's like a non-sports fan who gets the full ESPN package as part of his cable package: something you mostly ignore and flip past.) The primary function of his immortality in S1-2 was to underline how determined he was to find his son. His quest to get himself over to the Land Without Magic was the engine that drove the entire plot, a goal so central to his heart that he'd been waiting and working to achieve for centuries. Snowing, Regina, Emma, et al, were just the ones stuck without a chair when the music stopped and the stars aligned. YMMV as to how sympathetic this made him as a character; clearly the idea of a parent's all-encompassing love for their children, and what they would do to protect those children, was a major theme for the first half of the series. Post S3, his immortality serves no purpose. He has no outward goal beyond hanging on to power because he's too scared to live without it. That lack of heart-driven motivation is the major reason I don't think he works as a character after Nealfire's death. 

[YaddaYadda]

17 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

That lack of heart-driven motivation is the major reason I don't think he works as a character after Nealfire's death. 

No, he doesn't. And maybe that's the reason they decided to go down the baby road with him.

[Amerilla]

26 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

And maybe that's the reason they decided to go down the baby road with him.

You'd think, but I also would have thought the would have taken the far easier route of having him bond to Henry - Neal's only living legacy - and that didn't happen.  

It's plausible to me that they're going on the assumption this is RC's (and maybe the show's) finale season, so it does makes sense that they'd put a baby in the mix so Rumpel can die or drop through a portal to sacrifically save the life of this new child. You could even toss a TLK from Belle in there somewhere to fully round out his S1 origins. Maybe that's why they didn't have him and Henry form any tangible relationship, or why Golden Bun doesn't seem to have much of a relationship to Emilie's real life pregnancy, because this is the endgame they're working towards? The problem remains emotion. One of the reasons the story worked with Baefire is that we got to see inside this relationship - we understood why it was important and why it drove Rumpel to extremes. That's not so much the case here. Rumpel really showed very little emotion about the pregnancy. It's not excitement, or anxiety, or trepidation. It's simply a series of plot steps to march through, and it's mostly about Belle, not about the idea or the potential for a new family.

Short version: I don't trust them to not screw this up.   

[Curio]

1 hour ago, Amerilla said:

You'd think, but I also would have thought they would have taken the far easier route of having him bond to Henry - Neal's only living legacy - and that didn't happen.  

I think there's a deleted scene from Season 4 where Henry went to Rumple and complained about Regina ignoring him, and after hearing other screenwriters discuss how show runners have the ultimate control over which scenes get cut, it makes me wonder why they'd cut that scene out. Rumple and Henry rarely ever bond, so it was disappointing to see it cut, but I have a feeling it had more to do with A&E's fear of making Regina look too unlikable on screen.

It seems to me that in the writers' effort to make Regina look more heroic Season 4 onwards, they've had to dial Rumple into a more one-dimensional villain to compensate for that, where somehow all of his actions are the reason why Regina "became a monster." How many times has Regina uttered "the monster you made me" over the seasons? He was the easy scapegoat, but by doing this, they've taken a once interesting and well-rounded character and made him unsympathetic. Rumple was always one of my favorite characters in the early seasons, and he still has potential to be fun, but it's been hard to be a Rumple fan the past few seasons.

1 hour ago, Amerilla said:

Rumpel really showed very little emotion about the pregnancy. It's not excitement, or anxiety, or trepidation. It's simply a series of plot steps to march through, and it's mostly about Belle, not about the idea or the potential for a new family.

This is why it frustrated me that Emma was the only one who communicated with Neal en route to the Underworld. Sure, Emma and Neal had a son together, but Bae was Rumple's biggest motivation in life and Rumple is the character who's supposed to be closest to him. The writers knew they were setting Rumple up to have another child in 5B, so I feel like there was a huge missed opportunity to have some foreshadowing with Neal talking with Rumple about fatherhood. Neal and Emma's conversation didn't amount to much anyways in the long run (Captain Obvious: Don't go to the Underworld, it's dangerous!), so it would have been nice to see some closure between Rumple and Neal instead.

Was Rumple even allowed to react to the news that Emma had a conversation with Neal? Was he even just a tiny bit disappointed that he couldn't find Neal in the Underworld? Are we just supposed to accept that Rumple was happy Neal didn't have any unresolved issues?

I always thought the writers liked to write Rumple's viewpoint, but I'm coming to realize that they haven't actually done this for a long time.

Oh, and one last thing. There was so much meaty material Robert and Colin could have worked with had the writers actually let the characters find out about Rumple pushing Milah into the water, but they did nothing with it. Why have Rumple do such a terrible act if they're not even going to follow up with it? Isn't the fallout from that what "drama" is all about?

Edited July 15, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

44 minutes ago, Curio said:

Why have Rumple do such a terrible act if they're not even going to follow up with it? Isn't the fallout from that what "drama" is all about?

I've come to the conclusion that these writers aren't interested in drama at all. The only thing that matters to them is the shock and surprise. They're done when they've shown a shocking moment. They don't care about the fact that the shocking moment should have an aftermath and affect people and their relationships, and create drama.

[Camera One]

I don't mind Regina bringing up what Rumple did since he did manipulate Regina in an extremely significant way.  Though of course, if she's actually growing, she should take some responsibility, especially when she speaks to her victims Snow and Emma.

Quote

I always thought the writers liked to write Rumple's viewpoint, but I'm coming to realize that they haven't actually done this for a long time.

Writing from Rumple's viewpoint is when he talks to Belle sleeping or trapped in a box.  That's when he temporarily acts all puppy-dog, and yes, we're meant to sympathesize with him.  So we constantly have the two polar opposites, Rumple acting all pitiful and "everything messed up I do, I do it for you", or Rumple as the stock muahahaha villain, with A&E believing that showing 2 minutes of the former makes his character complex.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I miss Rumple just being Rumple. He's more intriguing when he's pulling strings and the audience doesn't know why. He's gotten too predictable and the attempts to humanize him have been increasingly desperate. The idea that he's got his hands in everything has been pretty forgotten. He and the Box might as well have their own separate show. 

I used to enjoy his mustache twirling and sparkly prancing. Now he's mostly dead weight. 

[Rumsy4]

Quote

He and the Box might as well have their own separate show. 

Lol. Yes. The writers took an intriguing multi-dimensional character and reduced him to a two-dimensional villain. I think the writers should have killed off Belle and kept Neal instead. Belle and the Do-Over baby as dangling carrots for his eventual redemption are simply not enough. Rumple would work best as the former-villain who still occasionally did shady things, but is trying to do the right thing for the sake of his relationship with his son. 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 The writers took an intriguing multi-dimensional character and reduced him to a two-dimensional villain.

The irony is that he was more dimensional at his most villainous. If you are too familiar with something, it will lose its depth. We know all too well how Rumple's mind works, so his "big betrayals" are not that significant. He's no longer a mysterious figure. So while he wasn't extremely complex as a person in S1, he was still interesting because his motives and strategies varied. Neal may have been his top objective, but there were many others along the way. Now it's just power, power, power, Belle/Damien, and more power.

Quote

Rumple would work best as the former-villain who still occasionally did shady things, but is trying to do the right thing for the sake of his relationship with his son.

To me, that would be really boring. But maybe that's because Regina is supposed to be filling that role already.

Edited July 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

. I think the writers should have killed off Belle and kept Neal instead.

They didn't even need to kill Belle.  Belle could have just dumped him permanently.

[KAOS Agent]

12 hours ago, Curio said:

There was so much meaty material Robert and Colin could have worked with had the writers actually let the characters find out about Rumple pushing Milah into the water, but they did nothing with it. Why have Rumple do such a terrible act if they're not even going to follow up with it? Isn't the fallout from that what "drama" is all about?

Not only did they drop the Milah thing, but the whole karmic piece to that where the baby contract was hanging over his head was wiped out too easily. He kidnaps Zelena and poof, Hades rips up the contract. That was such awful storytelling. Milah ends up suffering eternal torment and that's never ever mentioned again and Rumpel uses his evil power and wins out on the baby thing. Why even have these things happen if there's no follow through? There's so much drama to mine in Hook/Emma's finding out about the Milah thing. Belle ought to be sincerely worried that her wife murdering husband did it a second time without a thought. And the baby contract at the very least needed to extract a steep price from him. Instead, we learn that once again evil pays.

In a season where we watched Emma go through mental torture and pay and pay and pay for protecting everyone from Rumpel's idiocy, it's incredibly upsetting to see Rumpel win again and again without any consequences. I know the writers seem to think that Belle in a Box is this super sad thing for Rumpel, but the fact that he won't give up his power to wake her removes any and all sympathy I had for him. Power is his True Love. He hasn't learned from the Bae situation. He's off once again in search of some super complicated new way to solve this problem which will probably destroy a bunch more people's lives. S1 redux. It's not interesting. We're supposed to root for him to be successful, I'm rooting for him to just fall down dead. People can have True Love's Kiss with coma patients, so then Belle in a Box can find True Love with some random who finds the box at a curiosity shop and live happily ever after.

[KingOfHearts]

There's really no redeeming Rumple at this point. In 5B he pretty much said, "I'm evil. Deal with it." The writers don't seem to have any desire to rehabilitate him into a hero any more. They think he works better as a straight-up villain and I agree. He had some depth before, but he's so fleshed out that reclaiming it is too large of a task. If all the finales have been any indication, he is going to be what ties everything together. He's the driving force of the entire series. Logically, this means his defeat will be in the final arc of the show. We tasted his insecurities, his darkness, and whatever sliver of "good" in his heart. You can stick a fork in him - he's done.

Edited July 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

These are the same writers who believed genuinely that we would be touched by Cora heading into the Light; the same writers who constantly devote screentime to tender moments between Rumple and the Box or Sleeping Belle.  I have no doubt they will have Rumple sacrifice himself for Belle and the baby as his last moments, and his death scene will be meant as extremely sad and moving.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

They'll probably have him see the error of his ways and then have him sacrifice himself for the realm, his new kid, Belle, because that's how this show rolls.

[Camera One]

Yep, future A&E quote:

"I think after a lifetime of not having the courage, Rumple has finally been able to let go of his fear and fully open himself to love.  That's really the journey we have been planning and building up to for years, finally come to fruition.  It is a happy ending in some sense since it shows there's hope for anyone to change, even Rumplestiltskin.  It's a really genuine moment and as always Robert Carlyle knocked it out of the park.  I would be really disappointed if we don't get to see the other characters honor him in a big way, maybe by re-naming the town Rumplebrooke."

Edited July 19, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I would be really disappointed if...

Nailed it.

[Camera One]

This was from an interview, but this quote doesn't contain spoilers.  It's about Rumple.

Quote

EK: As he reminded us in season one, he's a difficult man to love, and we often forget that because we want to forget that, because he seems so loving and he so much loves Belle. But he was honest last year! He loves the life . . . he also loves Belle more than anything, and I think that is genuine. I think the idea of having another child is really something he's looking forward to, because it's another chance to do it right. I think what we love about the relationship is the messiness of it. That's what's so much fun to write, because he can't help himself.

I have issues about two of the things Eddy says.  

"We" often forget that?  Is he talking about himself and the Writers?  Because I don't think we as viewers forget he's a horrible person.  Does he "so much love Belle" when he's selfishly thinking about himself and his power trip?

So now Rumple "can't help himself"?  Everything nasty he did, including regaining The Dark One mantle, felt premeditated in a methodical way.  

All this "fun" stuff just destroys the character of Belle, in my books.  It's not "messy".  It's disturbing and messed up and makes no sense.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

We often forget that?  Is he talking about himself and the Writers?  Because I don't think we as viewers forget he's a horrible person.

Right? Just because the writers never address major issues on screen and keep the characters in the dark doesn't mean we often forget, it just means the writers failed to address those issues in a timely manner.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

We often forget that?  Is he talking about himself and the Writers?  Because I don't think we as viewers forget he's a horrible person.

We're reminded of how horrible a person Rumple is in every single episode he's in. Not even hardcore fans of his are denying he's a deceptive douche. I remember Lana saying a very similar quote about the S5 finale. "We" somehow forgot she used to be the Evil Queen. I think we tend to forget Rumple was a sparkly imp, but Mr. Gold is just as bad if not worse. He doesn't have to go prancing around and turning people into snails to be the terrible psychopath he is.

On a side note, I don't understand the significance of sparkly Rumple. That's always been an interesting aspect of his character and it hasn't really been taken advantage of since S2. (Unless you count Clippy!Rumple.) It's just a strange contrast to see calm, hiding-the-fangs Mr. Gold up against a giggling theatrical crocodile. How does he contain himself? If Regina can have her Evil Queen moments...

Edited July 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

34 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

On a side note, I don't understand the significance of sparkly Rumple. That's always been an interesting aspect of his character and it hasn't really been taken advantage of since S2. (Unless you count Clippy!Rumple.) It's just a strange contrast to see calm, hiding-the-fangs Mr. Gold up against a giggling theatrical crocodile. How does he contain himself? If Regina can have her Evil Queen moments...

We haven't seen him in full sparkly mode in the present other than when he was crazy with Neal living in his head, so it would be interesting to see what he'd be like now, after having spent all that time as Mr. Gold. Would he be more like Regina was, where she reverted to her old look but was still acting more or less like Regina Mills, so that he'd be sparkly but still acting like Gold? It is interesting that the deranged giggle never pops up in Storybrooke, not even like Regina's crazy eyes (though I'm never entirely sure if they intend the crazy eyes or if that's just a Lana thing).

[OnceUponAJen]

So will the Rumbelle baby be named Baelfire? What do you think? Three for three on the awkward baby-naming trend?

[Mari]

Milo or Gaston?

After all, I'm sure they'll want to honor the people they managed to kill twice.

[FormerMod-a1]

Daniel.

[Camera One]

Maurice would be another good choice.  It's nice to honor someone you threatened to beat up with a cane a few weeks before.

[KingOfHearts]

Cassidy if it's a girl or Chip if it's a boy.

Edited July 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Anna if it's a girl, for the time Belle chose a rock over her. Zoso, if it's a boy. But no matter what, the baby will always be Damien to me.

[Camera One]

I was watching this interview from PaleyFest during Season 2, when Robert Carlyle was asked a question about how the return of Baelfire/Neal impacts Rumple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k11dVJe6Kwg

I thought his frustration seemed to seep through, in that he couldn't really say anything without revealing anything.  Plus his answer that he didn't know was honest, especially, as he adds that they kind of left that story after "Manhattan" and doesn't come back to it episodes later.  The fact was Neal hardly got any scenes with Rumple after "Manhattan", and their relationship was never fully dealt with.  Even in Season 3.  Frankly, I don't think he can even answer this question today.  

It seems like Emilie had the same problem with answering her question too, and she threw in a crack about how the Writers didn't tell her she would lose her memory midway through the season.

It seems to imply that this show is more about the twists than about characterization, when there's so little to say.

I haven't watched many of these panels, since they're so cringeworthy, like this one.  

Edited August 23, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

I legitimately do not understand A&E's tactic to leave their actors in the dark about everything. The ultimate goal is to fool the audience, not the actors. The actors need crucial information about their characterizations in order to play their scenes convincingly, and when you try to trick them, the performance can suffer. Why keep the actors out of the loop when they'll find out soon anyways? This show isn't like LOST where every major entertainment news site is trying to spill the beans about what the next huge twist is. (It's why I love how Robert doesn't give a crap about spilling spoilers in interviews.) They should be thankful they even have a decent audience after 5 crazy seasons. I don't blame Robert for kind of checking out and phoning it in sometimes because he's experienced enough to know that A&E are full of it.

[orza]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

I legitimately do not understand A&E's tactic to leave their actors in the dark about everything. The ultimate goal is to fool the audience, not the actors. The actors need crucial information about their characterizations in order to play their scenes convincingly, and when you try to trick them, the performance can suffer. Why keep the actors out of the loop when they'll find out soon anyways? This show isn't like LOST where every major entertainment news site is trying to spill the beans about what the next huge twist is. (It's why I love how Robert doesn't give a crap about spilling spoilers in interviews.) They should be thankful they even have a decent audience after 5 crazy seasons. I don't blame Robert for kind of checking out and phoning it in sometimes because he's experienced enough to know that A&E are full of it.

I wouldn't call it a tactic. Indeed, A&E try to do the opposite. Lana once said in an interview that Adam and Eddy offer to take each main cast member to lunch to fill them in on what is planned for their character in the coming season. She said she declines the offer because she doesn't want to know anything in advance. That knowledge could influence her acting choices and performance in ways she doesn't want it to. So if other cast members are in the dark about their characters it is probably their choice.

Many actors don't want to know what is in store for their characters for the same reasons. Actor Kevin Chapman of Person of Interest said in an interview a while back that he only read the scenes his character was in and not the rest of the script because he didn't want to know more than his character knows, again, because it could negatively influence his performance. Gregory Peck once said, I believe it was on the Tonight Show, that he wished he had not known the end of Duel in the Sun because knowing how it ended made his job harder in his scenes with Jennifer Jones. I've heard and read similar things over the years from countless other actors. There does seem to be a consensus among working actors that knowing too much about a character goes against the idea of being in the moment and can make a performance less authentic.

Pretty much all the actors of the various shows represented at Comic Con say the same thing, that they have only seen a couple of scripts and don't know what is planned for their character. What you seem to be framing as yet another egregious failing on the part of A&E is in reality a long-standing industry practice. If working actors don't see that as a big deal or a hindrance to doing their jobs then it makes little sense for people outside the industry to get upset about it on their behalf.

Brett Dalton said in his post-finale round of interviews for AOS that he didn't find out his character was being killed off until he was called into the producers office shortly before the episode started filming. Taraji P Henson found out her character was killed off in Person of Interest the same way.

Robert Carlyle once talked about not knowing anything in advance in a radio interview with a local Scottish reporter. He was telling how Ken Loach didn't even give the actors scripts. They got their lines as they were filming so when he showed up for work he never knew what he would be doing. He was ok with that. He also said some other interesting things that he wouldn't say to an American reporter.

While I don't know about the historical accuracy, it was a running gag in Shakespeare in Love that the actors never knew what they were supposed to do because Will didn't give them sides until the last minute and kept rewriting scenes out from under them. That movie was released in 1998, so it was not a new thing back then.

I recently read a book about the golden age of radio. Apparently, it was common that the writers were only a day or so ahead of the broadcast in their writing so actors got their sides for the day when they arrived at the studio. They would read them, have a rehearsal and then do the live broadcast. Occasionally, someone would find out he was out of a job by reading in the script that his character was killed off.

I would think that Robert Carlyle has nothing but warm regard for Adam and Eddy. After spending 20 years following his bliss and, as he said, having nothing to show for it, they revived his flagging career and made him a wealthy man. RC has repeated expressed in interviews how blessed and grateful he is for that.

[Curio]

This is probably for another thread, but I was talking more about major secrets the actors should know while filming in the moment, like telling Marian's actress she's actually Zelena or telling Colin that Hook traded his ship for Emma. I know most actors want to be more in the moment, but if the character knows the information while the episode is filming, it seems counterintuitive to keep that information from the actor. When Colin was filming "New York City Serenade," Hook knew he traded his ship for Emma, but Colin the actor did not know 100%. Those are the specific situations I'm talking about.

I'm sure Robert respects A&E and appreciates the iconic character they've given him, but it must be frustrating knowing that your plot usually ends up going in circles. When I mentioned Robert phoning it in, it's just my observation that there's been a few times where he seems not entirely devoted to selling what's on the script. When he had to say numerous times in Season 4 the dialogue about "the stars in the hat and the stars in the sky aligning," I could kind of sense that Robert knew those lines were fairly meaningless. I love watching Robert bring it as sparkly Rumple, and I'm rooting for the writers to give him a juicier story line in the future that doesn't go around in circles, because that's been his story's trajectory the past few seasons.

[orza]

I don't buy into the idea that we as viewers can sense an actor's private thoughts from his performance. If an actor is doing his job even halfway decently he is focused on the character and not himself and what we are seeing is the actors take on the character in that situation and not the actor's passive-aggressive commentary on the script. That would be pretty unprofessional.

My take on Rumple's behavior was he was grieving the death of his son and processing the events we saw in season 3. I thought his performance was consistent with someone who had experienced horrible things and was not able to talk about it rationally. The whole obsession with cleaving himself from the dagger was a reaction to Zelena controlling him and was supposed to be extreme and obsessive. That is not so different from people who go overboard installing and upgrading home security after a break in, or someone who is obsessive about always carrying pepper spray and keeping their money and id in their shoe after being mugged.

I also assumed during season 4 that RC was just exhausted because, as he mentioned in interviews, he was working two jobs - his regular day job and doing editing and post-production of his film.

I also think it is unwise to reveal too much to actors hired for a day or two of filming who can bail on you and commit to another project at any time, as was the case with Christie. Who knows if they can be trusted to keep a plot secret since they are not in it for the long haul so better not to tell them.

[Rumsy4]

I totally felt that Robert Carlyle was phoning it in during S4. Especially when he was playing Mr. Gold. He still brings it when playing Rumplestiltskin, but I just don't feel his energy in Mr. Gold scenes at times, though it's not as bad as it was in S4. And I can't blame him for it. He had some of the most boring and repetitive lines in 4A.

As for how much the writers reveal to actors, I think the writers thread is the place for it. 

[KingOfHearts]

Why is Rumple even a main character any more? No one cares about him but Belle, and he's only approached when he's affecting the plot or is needed for making deals. Even though he's Henry's grandfather, he's not emotionally attached to anything but his personal business. He doesn't care what the heroes or even villains do, as long as they don't get in his way. He's just not relevant except where the plot needs him to be. (Much like the secondary characters.)

[Mathius]

On 8/23/2016 at 2:13 PM, Rumsy4 said:

I totally felt that Robert Carlyle was phoning it in during S4. Especially when he was playing Mr. Gold. He still brings it when playing Rumplestiltskin, but I just don't feel his energy in Mr. Gold scenes at times, though it's not as bad as it was in S4.

I disagree, it was even worse in S5 (and S6) than it was in S4.  Just compare his Mr. Gold voice in S4 to his Mr. Gold voice in S5/S6...he still sounded like he normally did in S4, whereas in S5/S6 he's suddenly become more quiet and raspy, and less emotive.  But yes, he still brings it as imp Rumple.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

The last time we really saw any energy from Mr. Gold was in 4A, when he went full villain mode on Hook. 

[Curio]

It does seem like Mr. Gold has less energy and speaks with a more monotone, whispered voice this season. Is it a side effect of being the most powerful Dark One ever? 

[Camera One]

Hyde is in town so he puts the necklace on display at the Shop?  And David's coin as well?  No wonder he's so busy sometimes he doesn't appear onscreen.

When Belle is minding the Shop, does she just give people back their possessions?  Or does she make deals like, repay your library fines or else.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

14 hours ago, Curio said:

It does seem like Mr. Gold has less energy and speaks with a more monotone, whispered voice this season. Is it a side effect of being the most powerful Dark One ever? 

Don't think so, since he was speaking like that before he became the most powerful Dark One.  It actually started in 4B, but there it wasn't about Robert Carlyle phoning it in and was about Rumple the character being in a position where he's ill, weary and gradually dying - he had energy again as the Light One in the AU.  I guess Robert Carlyle got too used to speaking that way and has kept at it even though it doesn't make any real sense.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

I still need Rumple to die. He's just way too overpowered. I hate how the other characters have to tiptoe around him in order to stay alive. Some of them are even making foolish deals with him still. Why trust him? He's an unhinged maniac hellbent on getting his perfect family without a single blemish. He can do whatever he wants, and when he's outwitted it's always only for a brief moment before he gets the upper hand again. His existence is very unfair and just continually rewards evil. Any consequences he suffers disappear after a few episodes. He's just the same relentless song-and-dance every time and it's exhausting. He's too godlike and immovable.

Edited November 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I think Rumple needs to die too. He's beyond redeemable at this point. He's so OOC in his make-out sessions with the Evil Queen as well. I can't with him. He looks like the deranged psychopath from The Shining in the promo for next week. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

He's just plain irritating to watch this season.  I don't remember, but how did he end up with the Sorcerer's wand again?  I consider the Rumple/Evil Queen "romance" to be bending over backwards to keep him relevant this season.

[YaddaYadda]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

He's just plain irritating to watch this season.  I don't remember, but how did he end up with the Sorcerer's wand again?  I consider the Rumple/Evil Queen "romance" to be bending over backwards to keep him relevant this season.

He got it from Hyde in the season 5 finale.

[Mari]

17 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

 He's so OOC in his make-out sessions with the Evil Queen as well. I can't with him. He looks like the deranged psychopath from The Shining in the promo for next week. 

I've wondered if he's using her attraction to him as a manipulative tool.  Which could be interesting, in theory, at least--each one thinking they're using their wiles to get what they want out of the other one.