Lorelai and Luke

[junienmomo]

On 2/5/2017 at 8:58 PM, lulu1960 said:

It's an oldie but goodie from Kinofille

Of Order Pads and Open Shirts

Oh, I love that one! Such a funny representation of Lorelai figuring out the dating thing.

On 2/5/2017 at 9:19 PM, FictionLover said:

Which episode is this?

S01 E01. 

Not the one where she dates the pilot and has to go to the concert with him.

[Frelling Tralk]

On 06/02/2017 at 5:55 PM, FictionLover said:

The Gilmore Guys evaded to it several times during their podcast of GG and in their broadcast of "Bonvoyage" they were talking about after LL finally kissed and Kevin said something like the both of them probably wiped off their month and ran...again paraphrased because I don't remember exact words but I got their meaning.  Apparently Kevin knows someone that worked on the set as he had mentioned it several times. 

I remember media people like Ausiello and Kristin talking about it too towards the end of the original series, after visiting the set they talked about it being incredibly obvious that there was some really bad feeling there, and that the atmosphere was noticeably tense. 

It was always speculated that they kept the physical contact between the actors to a minimum in season 5 because the actors were so uncomfortable with it, although I've no idea if there's any truth to that, it does seem odd that Amy would be so accommodating on that when she was otherwise pretty notoriously strict about everyone following her exact instructions to the letter 

[FictionLover]

13 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I remember media people like Ausiello and Kristin talking about it too towards the end of the original series, after visiting the set they talked about it being incredibly obvious that there was some really bad feeling there, and that the atmosphere was noticeably tense. 

It was always speculated that they kept the physical contact between the actors to a minimum in season 5 because the actors were so uncomfortable with it, although I've no idea if there's any truth to that, it does seem odd that Amy would be so accommodating on that when she was otherwise pretty notoriously strict about everyone following her exact instructions to the letter 

Interesting.  They did a good job of hiding it.  It could have been better but I really liked them together. It does explain the lack of screen time together in season 7 with LG at the helm.

Maybe that's one of the reasons SP said making a YITL was so much better with everyone appreciating what they had back then and made it so much better this time around.   Now he says he had a crush on LG.

Edited February 8, 2017 by FictionLover

[Smad]

It always seems to me like romantic couplings have to be hyped somehow if shows aren't that big. Either the actors hate each other or they are secretly sleeping together, either is good for publicity. Scott never had a bad word to say about Lauren but who knows what the truth is. I can understand tension towards the end of the show because there was a lot going on behind the scenes in terms of negotiations with the 2 leads and the network. That might have soured some people.

And if the reason for less touchy feely was because the two couldn't stand each other (though why would LG question the lack of touching then), they are terrible actors. They are paid big bucks to pretend to be someone else, suck it up and get over it.

[junienmomo]

On 2/9/2017 at 6:17 AM, Smad said:

And if the reason for less touchy feely was because the two couldn't stand each other (though why would LG question the lack of touching then), they are terrible actors. They are paid big bucks to pretend to be someone else, suck it up and get over it.

Exactly. I thought it was undisputed that the directors held an iron fist over both the dialog and the acting, and therefore the lack of affection is Palladino-induced. These actors were professional. LG even questioned the lack of affection, but it was really an LL thing. Rory and Logan were frequently very affectionate, even had an ILY.

[whateverhappened]

Quote

therefore the lack of affection is Palladino-induced. These actors were professional. LG even questioned the lack of affection, but it was really an LL thing. Rory and Logan were frequently very affectionate, even had an ILY.

I always had the same impression! I have a tough time believing that these two professional actors hated each other to the point where they couldn't even pretend to be two fictional characters who had feelings for each other. The conspiracy theory I'm more inclined to believe is the one about the Palladinos disliking the idea of LL together and resenting the network and fans for pushing them to make that happen. I loved some of their scenes, but taken as a whole it's almost like LL were written and directed as if the Palladinos were passive aggressively lashing out at the network and fans for making them do this. You might have stupidly thought you wanted them together, they seemed to say, but how do you like them now? That'll teach you for thinking you know better than we do.

I have little basis for this, lol. It's just the sense I had. I will always love this couple and the show, but the Palldinos seem very petty and have no qualms about sabotaging some of their own characters and relationships to make a point and try to remind people of who's in charge. That's how it comes across to me both in their interviews and based on how they write LL and some other couples.

My guess is that they wanted the option of putting LL together at some point, but not at that point in the series or maybe not even until the finale. They seemed to not enjoy writing for them as a happy couple. But maybe the Palldinos don't really believe in the concept of truly happy couples? More about that in a minute.  

Juniemomo brings up a great point about Rory x Logan. Rory x Logan had too many conflicts and issues as well, like many couples on this show and others, but they did seem to be allowed to show more affection and to have more romance, passion, physical contact and moments where they were allowed to look and act very happy. I don't know if that's because of the characters' ages or personalities; maybe the Palldinos don't think Luke would have been the most touchy feely and romantic, demonstrative guy, which I can understand, but the Palldinos took it to an extreme.  

Based on the revival, the Palldinos wanted to torpedo Rory x Logan and have Luke x Lorelai end up together and married even though they still were written to still have a lot of communication problems and not a lot of what people would consider traditionally sweet, affectionate and romantic moments. Even as a java junkie, I understand why some who saw the revival said it felt like LL were not truly happy but just comfortable enough and settling. Maybe the message is that the Palldinos think romance, affection and signs of happiness are temporary and that real, lasting love looks more like quiet satisfaction, low on passion but high on depdendability? It would be sad to think that real romance, affection, and joy are incompatible with endgame relationships in the Palldinos' minds. But tbh they do send some cynical messages where romantic relationships are concerned, so it would not be that surprising. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

I have little basis for this, lol. It's just the sense I had.

That has always been my theory as well.  That and the fact that I bet the Palladino's were not an overly affectionate couple so were unable to write one.

[Taryn74]

54 minutes ago, whateverhappened said:

The conspiracy theory I'm more inclined to believe is the one about the Palladinos disliking the idea of LL together and resenting the network and fans for pushing them to make that happen. I loved some of their scenes, but taken as a whole it's almost like LL were written and directed as if the Palladinos were passive aggressively lashing out at the network and fans for making them do this. You might have stupidly thought you wanted them together, they seemed to say, but how do you like them now? That'll teach you for thinking you know better than we do.

Squee on this, bitches.  That's what I always come back to.

[whateverhappened]

Quote

Squee on this, bitches.

Please tell me that's a direct quote from the Palldinos. It would explain so much. 

[tarotx]

I feel like the revival gave the large shipping groups what they wanted but not at all in a great way.

Lorelai and Luke are finally married but it's been 16/20 years to get there. And this Last year is filled with questions and mini fights over things they should have talked about years ago. 

And Jess is pining away for Rory and she shows no interest. But now Rory is pregnant and in her mom shoes. So she needs her own luke but has a long way to go before that is an option. Jess may get to be her Luke but hello 2023 or later....

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, whateverhappened said:

Please tell me that's a direct quote from the Palldinos. It would explain so much. 

Ha!  No, not as far as I know.  It was either the recapper or a poster after L/L (finally) got together and then it all went to hell.  But it fits.  Boy does it fit.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2015 at 8:21 AM, amensisterfriend said:

Heh---yeah, I pretty much agree with your assessment of each season, and I feel strangely validated that even a card carrying JJ agrees that the romantic chemistry was strongest back in S1! Maybe if I had started watching in S1 I would ship them more than I do. My first episodes were from S5 (I ordered the first four seasons on DVD during the first commercial break, mainlined them the second they arrived and, as you guys know, became a lifelong addict!) so maybe my first impressions of L/L were tainted by how relatively unloving they seemed as a couple.  Not that I need or want couples constantly touching and beaming and gushing, of course---but a little more happiness, connection, compatibility and passion would have been a delight. I also find it weird that nearly all the times they were most physically affectionate came after they had been drinking (WitS, BBAM) and that even Taylor made a crack in NAIL about them 'needing' alcohol to enjoy each other in that way.  

 

I admire you JJs for still loving and shipping them despite the many missteps in writing and direction! 

Working my way through this thread, but this I had to comment on! My husband Mick and I have watched this entire show multiple times, and we both mention the lack of affection. God we've been married forever, and maybe we're weird, but we hug and kiss each other multiple times a day! The one scene that always gets us is when Lorelai sends Luke camping while she goes to Miss. Patty's show. When he comes back, they never even touch! Good God, at least a good-bye kiss!

Okay, after finishing this thread, I understand the reasons for this, but still! ASP should get off her high horse, and let the relationship develop. As for the acyors, hell, you're paid to act, put your differences aside, and give us a relationship we can root for! 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Mick Lady
finished the thread

[FictionLover]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 0:17 AM, Smad said:

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:30 PM, junienmomo said:

Exactly. I thought it was undisputed that the directors held an iron fist over both the dialog and the acting, and therefore the lack of affection is Palladino-induced. These actors were professional. LG even questioned the lack of affection, but it was really an LL thing. Rory and Logan were frequently very affectionate, even had an ILY.

 

I was mostly they questioning the very little screen time Scott and Lauren had together in season 7 when Lauren was a producer and Palladinos were out.

[Kohola3]

But producing isn't writing.  If the writers didn't have them together there wasn't much they could do about it, Palladinos gone notwithstanding.

[FictionLover]

9 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

But producing isn't writing.  If the writers didn't have them together there wasn't much they could do about it, Palladinos gone notwithstanding.

Perhaps. I only know that Lauren had a lot to say about the finale.  She said they had some it changed to give it more closure as it looked like they wouldn't be renewed.  I don't know anything, it was just something I wondered with all the things that were said.  Then when the Gilmore Guys made that statement about their last kiss, it made me question it again.  We'll never know for sure. 

[whateverhappened]

It's hard to assess in part because I thought relationships in general were allowed to be more romantic and affectionate after the Palldinos left the building in S7. Logan and Rory had a lot of very sweet, borderline gushy scenes in Season 7. Christopher and Lorelai being smiley and having more physical contact might be the result of how Daniel R. believed in writing and directing relationships, not about Lauren Graham as a producer who may or may not have favored L/C over L/L? 

It might have been fun to see how DR would write and direct LL as a couple. I know folks hated aspects of Season 7 but personally I think he had a less cynical take on romance than the Palldinos and think he might have allowed for more passion, happiness and affection between Luke and Lorelai if they had been together under his watch. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by whateverhappened

[Frelling Tralk]

13 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Working my way through this thread, but this I had to comment on! My husband Mick and I have watched this entire show multiple times, and we both mention the lack of affection. God we've been married forever, and maybe we're weird, but we hug and kiss each other multiple times a day! The one scene that always gets us is when Lorelai sends Luke camping while she goes to Miss. Patty's show. When he comes back, they never even touch! Good God, at least a good-bye kiss

Haha yes, that always confused me too. I can understand a little better by the time of revival why they might be less overtly affectionate after a long time together, I guess some couples do get stuck in a rut in that way, but it always seemed very odd to me how little they touched in season 5 when they had only *just* become an item.

Ironically Lorelai once made fun of Rory and Jess for 'pecking at one another like a couple of chickens', yet that's exactly how Luke and Lorelai kissed most of the time, their lips rarely made contact for longer than a second at the most, and they never even opened their mouths. Maybe it was for BTS reasons, or maybe it was just that Amy wanted it that way because she believed that Luke wasn't a very lovey-dovey guy or whatever, but they should have given them way more passion for the early stage of their relationship IMHO. 

[Mick Lady]

I've been here and on Mighty Big TV, and TWoP, but I still don't know; who are the Gilmore Guys?

I hang on Supernatural and Bate's Motel, so I'm out of the loop here. Help?

[FictionLover]

41 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I've been here and on Mighty Big TV, and TWoP, but I still don't know; who are the Gilmore Guys?

I hang on Supernatural and Bate's Motel, so I'm out of the loop here. Help?

It's a podcast.  They went through every episode including the revival.  They even got to be extras in AYITL at the Dragonfly.

[Mick Lady]

18 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

It's a podcast.  They went through every episode including the revival.  They even got to be extras in AYITL at the Dragonfly.

Thanks FictionLover! I'll look for it.

[tarotx]

51 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I've been here and on Mighty Big TV, and TWoP, but I still don't know; who are the Gilmore Guys?

I hang on Supernatural and Bate's Motel, so I'm out of the loop here. Help?

 

 

It's hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of these fans talking about Gilmore girls. I can't stand them myself but they are considerably anti-Logan so that probably plays a huge part. But I find them all around annoying with some funny parts. 

http://www.gilmoreguysshow.com/

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/gilmore-guys/id923957904?mt=2

[Mick Lady]

Just now, tarotx said:

It's hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of these fans talking about Gilmore girls. I can't stand them myself but they are considerably anti-Logan so that probably plays a huge part. But I find them all around annoying with some funny parts. 

http://www.gilmoreguysshow.com/

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/gilmore-guys/id923957904?mt=2

Hey tarotx, thanks for the links!

[Melancholy]

I don't really complain about Luke and Lorelai's lack of kissy scenes. I generally find kissy/sex scenes boring and filler where there can be plot or dialogue instead. UNLESS the male half of the couple is very hot or as I'm saying on the Mad Men thread now, the hyper-sexuality designed to make a dark, cynical, and anti-romantic point. But generally, you've seen one straight-forwardly romantic make-out scene, you've seen them all. I'm aware that I'm not exactly popular in this opinion. I think L/L had some stand out make-out scenes like Raincoats and Recipes, the bedroom scene in Written in the Stars, the cheesecake scene, the St. Elmo's Fire post-movie scene. It was enough to connote me that they were physically passionate and attracted to each other. Once that was checked off, it didn't bother me in the slightest that they just had quick kisses in a lot of the other scenes to make room for what engages me far more- hilarious banter and plot. 

I also think that the Palladinos share my distaste for long kissy scenes when those lips can be used for dialogue which interests them far more. I think exceptions were made for Rory because the make-out scenes were designed to tell a story about her developing sexuality as she grows up (with the specter of whether she'd let sexuality derail her other ambitions) and because she and her boyfriends were younger and hotter. However aside from Lorelai's IMO forced and unbearable "WE'RE SO HOT FOR EACH OTHER AND CAN'T KEEP OUR HANDS OFF EACH OTHER" scenes with Max in S1 and Christopher in S1-2, Lorelai generally wasn't that sexual a person for someone who got knocked up at 16. And IMO, those poorly acted, annoying OTT sexual scenes turned me off to seeing Lorelai as incredibly passionate to the point that she can't control herself because she finds the guy so hawt. When Lorelai's relationships, one of the strengths of Luke and Digger, actually, is that I don't have to sit through a lot of heavy breathing and furious kissing and "You're pretty", "No, YOU'RE pretty" filler that existed with Max and S1-2 Chris (although not S7 Chris). I think the trade-off is the banter was better in Lorelai/Luke and Lorelai/Jason than Lorelai/Max and Lorelai/Chris (even though some of Lorelai's best zingers are with Chris and he's.....there.) 

Luke/Lorelai pretty much always works in form or another for me. I generally root for them as a couple and buy their connection. Even more importantly, they consistently entertain me even during the bad times. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Melancholy

[whateverhappened]

I'm not hugely into makeout scenes either, @Melancholy! I think maybe what some people are saying is less about the lack of actual kissing and more just that there sometimes didn't seem to be a lot of affection and romantic connection there, even just conveyed by touching each other a little more or smiling. I love LL too and am grateful for what we got, but I do think the Palladinos could have written and directed in a way that would make them seem a lot happier and more in love. A friend was telling me that her husband watched a few episodes from S5 and S6 and even afterwards didn't know LL were supposed to be in a real romantic relationship. He thought they just "hung out" or something and was surprised to hear they were supposed to be in love and the show's primary romantic couple. It's not about wanting them to be all over each other or kiss for a certain length of time, just seeming a little more like a happily in love couple and less like two friends who squabble but often don't seem as connected or even to be having all that much fun together. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by whateverhappened

[Melancholy]

Maybe it depends on background. My parents had a lovely life together until my dad passed away. However, they weren't touchy with each other. Even though they both, especially my dad, were very physically demonstrative with us kids. They bickered A LOT and had some truly dark times in their relationship that us kids would learn about because neither of them were discreet people at all and they loudly lived their lives out loud with ranting, screaming, cursing, throwing stuff. But they were absolutely in love, had a lot of fun together, accomplished a lot together, and their bicker matches were frequently productive and hilarious. I wouldn't say that they're just like Luke/Lorelai- partly because my dad had the most personality and he had a lot of Luke AND Lorelai to him. However, there's enough similarities in the dynamics which made my home and childhood all that it was that I can't knock it. 

I get being dissatisfied that Luke and Lorelai weren't more romantic. However, I'm stuck wondering what S5-6 episodes your husband's friend watched because I believe all of these episodes made it clear that Luke and Lorelai were dating or in mid-S5, that they were broken up, but they had recently dated or Say Goodbye to Daisy Miller/Just a Messenger where they were presented as romantically involved but not dating yet. This is almost a challenge for me that I'll pose to anyone. What S5-6 episodes leave ambiguity about Luke and Lorelai being a couple? 

[whateverhappened]

Who are some fictional couples from movies, TV shows, or novels that remind you of LL?  I mentioned elsehwere that aspects of Rory x Logan remind me of Castle's Kate Beckett and Richard Castle, but as I continue to rewatch Castle I'm finding that parts of their relationship remind me of Lorelai x Luke's. The takeaway seems to be that everything reminds me of either Castle, Gilmore Girls or both. :) I mentioned in the Unpopular Opinions thread that LL also remind me a little of April x Andy from Parks and Recreation, with April x Andy an even better example of how to write opposites as extremely compatible and happy, not despite their differences but due to them. I'm sure there are a lot of couples from classic movies who remind me of LL as well. I would love to know which other couples they remind you all of, even just slightly!  

[junienmomo]

I was the frog in the pot in season five as I watched Luke and Lorelai in their romantic relationship. I took it and took it and took it, constantly pushing away my WTF feelings.

After loving "hello! Chuppah!" and "hello! Dead uncles!" and "easy stat to remember" now I saw Lorelai hiding and lying about Christopher and "horoscope in the wallet" and "dean headlock" Luke running out of WBB. They had more space between them physically in some S5 scenes than they did when Luke was married.

[openwindow]

This has been touched on by people more eloquent than I am, but I think LL are both insecure in ways that lead to them self-sabotaging. Luke never thought he was good enough for Lorelai, and he's this combination of extreme masculine pride and emotional insecurity that prevented him from directly pursuing her, resulted in his fear of telling her about a potential relationship-breaker like April, and led to him overreacting when things seemed to go awry, like the frequently cited mess in Wedding Bell Blues. It's because deep down he didn't believe he would end up happy anyway, didn't believe he'd be lucky enough to find love, and as with most of us, that became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even seemingly minor things would confirm Luke's worst fears about himself and his fate (essentially to be a disliked loner like Uncle Louie), and he would then isolate and retreat to guard himself against further pain and disappointment. So he would self-sabotage by saying and doing too little and Lorelai would self-sabotage by saying and doing too much, acting recklessly and impulsively. To me this accounts for so many of their problems but makes them both very relatable to me. These are really common human flaws (at least among the humans I know, lol) that I can identify with, and that's why I can't stop loving them individually or together no matter how many mistakes they made. 

There's some consensus about their best major moments, but I love how some people brought up the more minor moments that illustrate why I love them deeply and feel they love each other deeply too! The scene where he supports her opening her inn at the end of Road Trip and also knows without her saying so exactly why she felt ambivalent about seeing Rory at Harvard, him offering her a loan in Secrets and Loans in a way that was generous and designed not to wound her pride (not even the Pride and Prejudice characters had as much Pride and sometimes Prejudice as Luke and Lorelai, but maybe that's part of why they feel like such a classic love story to me!), Lorelai helping with all aspects of Uncle Louie's funeral, giving him that blue baseball cap, Luke building her a chuppah even when he thought she would stand under it to marry another man, Lorelai going out of her way to tell him that he was one of the few people who matter to her in Run Away Little Boy, Lorelai always urging him to participate and connect even when his instinct is to isolate, and I could go on! 

It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who is still firmly aboard this ship :-)  

Edited April 24, 2017 by openwindow

[FictionLover]

37 minutes ago, openwindow said:

This has been touched on by people more eloquent than I am, but I think LL are both insecure in ways that lead to them self-sabotaging. 

I'd say you are pretty eloquent yourself, openwindow. I've always said they are perfectly flawed for each other.

[openwindow]

Thanks, @FictionLover! That means a lot, especially since I'm planning to write my first LL fanfic and will need to be a little less hopelessly inarticulate than usual :) 

I will be mocked for this and rightly so, but to me Luke and Lorelai are a modern day Darcy and Elizabeth (Pride & Prejudice). I think a couple of other people have floated this comparison, but I'm determined to run with it ;) Lorelai and Eliabeth are both effervescent, enthusiastic, energetic and warm with a sharp and often cutting and defensive wit, a mix of determined optimism and underlying cynicism, a tendency to be too impulsive and to lash out at the wrong times and in the wrong ways, stubbornly independent and often unwilling to compromise, observant in some ways yet with an inability and perhaps unwillingness to see what's right in front of them. Luke and Darcy are both a little socially awkward and lacking in the exterior charm and superficially pleasant demeanor that both Jane Austen and ASP seem wary of. They struggle to communicate, are often blunt, introverted, obstinate, genuinely prefer to be alone than around groups of people, are easily annoyed and tend to retreat and shut down, yet are exceptionally loyal, generous and helpful. Both Darcy and Luke consistently communicate their feelings through their actions rather than words. LL and Elizabeth/Darcy both have a tendency to sabotage themselves and their connection with each other by clinging to way too much pride and stubbornness and their tendency to communicate awkwardly and insufficiently. Both couples are reluctant to acknowledge how they truly feel to themselves and each other.  Both couples banter, tease, challenge each other, balance out each other's flaws and even contend with annoying family members :-) In both cases, the elder relatives of one (Lorelai, Darcy) deem the other (Luke, Elizabeth) initially unworthy due to differences in wealth and status. Both seem initially unsuited but love each other deeply and are destined to end up together no matter how many obstacles their writers throw in their way! 

[lulu1960]

Very well said openwindow.

As a long time member of The Round Table of Optimism (that was a fun name we called ourselves over at TWoP when L/L were struggling. Always hopeful they would get their acts together.) For as much flack the 'ship' got from some  fans that L/L had no chemistry, weren't right for each other etc. I always firmly believed that their differences (as well as similarities) made them a couple I could get behind.

[openwindow]

@lulu1960, Do you get free refills on coffee and limitless stacks of Luke's chocolate chip pancakes at the Round Table of Optimism? If so, please save me a permanent seat! :) 

It's lovely to see that some are still enthusiastic about this couple despite their---and the writers'---issues. I understand the complaints completely, but I'm so inspired by LL positivity! 

[lulu1960]

@openwindow, I think it helped that the very first episode I ever watched was Raincoats and Recipes. I couldn't help but get on the L/L train. It was for that reason I made a point to watch the series from the very beginning (thank you, ABC Family) until I was up to date for the subsequent seasons that followed. Did I get frustrated with the writing, and plot devices that were thrown at them? You bet. But that never stopped me from believing that they would ultimately make it back to each other. (PS, Luke is my favorite character on the show.)

[openwindow]

@lulu1960, Luke is one of my very favorite characters on ANY show! And Lorelai is too, despite the fact that she occasionally makes me want to bang my head against my poor wall. :) And even though I'm probably more in love with their potential than some of what actually played out on the show, they're still my ultimate couple and always will be. They're just in my heart whether I want them to be or not, and no amount of ASP's plot contrivances and reminders of their sub-optimal communication can change that! 

[FictionLover]

1 hour ago, openwindow said:

Thanks, @FictionLover! That means a lot, especially since I'm planning to write my first LL fanfic and will need to be a little less hopelessly inarticulate than usual :) 

I will be mocked for this and rightly so, but to me Luke and Lorelai are a modern day Darcy and Elizabeth (Pride & Prejudice). I think a couple of other people have floated this comparison, but I'm determined to run with it ;) Lorelai and Eliabeth are both effervescent, enthusiastic, energetic and warm with a sharp and often cutting and defensive wit, a mix of determined optimism and underlying cynicism, a tendency to be too impulsive and to lash out at the wrong times and in the wrong ways, stubbornly independent and often unwilling to compromise, observant in some ways yet with an inability and perhaps unwillingness to see what's right in front of them. Luke and Darcy are both a little socially awkward and lacking in the exterior charm and superficially pleasant demeanor that both Jane Austen and ASP seem wary of. They struggle to communicate, are often blunt, introverted, obstinate, genuinely prefer to be alone than around groups of people, are easily annoyed and tend to retreat and shut down, yet are exceptionally loyal, generous and helpful. Both Darcy and Luke consistently communicate their feelings through their actions rather than words. LL and Elizabeth/Darcy both have a tendency to sabotage themselves and their connection with each other by clinging to way too much pride and stubbornness and their tendency to communicate awkwardly and insufficiently. Both couples are reluctant to acknowledge how they truly feel to themselves and each other.  Both couples banter, tease, challenge each other, balance out each other's flaws and even contend with annoying family members :-) In both cases, the elder relatives of one (Lorelai, Darcy) deem the other (Luke, Elizabeth) initially unworthy due to differences in wealth and status. Both seem initially unsuited but love each other deeply and are destined to end up together no matter how many obstacles their writers throw in their way! 

Make sure to let us all know on the FanFiction thread when to look for yours. I'm looking forward to it. Not enough good LL fics! Same pen name?

[Kohola3]

If only L & L had been written as well in later seasons as they were in Season 1.  Loved them together, loved the chemistry, loved their friendship.  I think Forgiveness and Stuff showed them at their very best with each other.  I still save that one on my DVR to watch when I need to see them together as friends and more.

[elang4]

2 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

If only L & L had been written as well in later seasons as they were in Season 1.  Loved them together, loved the chemistry, loved their friendship.  I think Forgiveness and Stuff showed them at their very best with each other.  I still save that one on my DVR to watch when I need to see them together as friends and more.

I agree! And I loved how they showed Lorelai in Dead Uncles and Vegetables as well because it showed their friendship really was two ways. It showed Lorelai would drop anything to help him as well. And to see Rory help out as well, I thought it was sweet. :)

[openwindow]

I would love to make a list of all their best moments! Because while I totally agree with @Kohola3 that LL's bond and chemistry were allowed to shine the brightest in S1, I'm always so happy to find that they have so many special moments in the other seasons too. 

[openwindow]

As I catch up on threads, I keep seeing people point out that Lorelai and Christopher have a lot more in common than LL, and while LC have some superficial similarities, I don't think I agree. I figured maybe we could start a list here of things LL have in common despite seeming like opposites?

They're both exceptionally hardworking

They're both fiercely independent 

They're both the type who are truly content at home (like others have said, as much of a social butterfly as Lorelai can seem, when it comes down to it she loves spending most of her time at home in her sweats with her movies, and even says so)

They're both actually very passionate, emotional people even though both go to lengths to cover that up

They both question traditional authority and arbitrary rules and conventions, whether they come from Taylor, Lorelais' parents or just general expectations about how they're supposed to live their lives

They both value the small things in life 

They both battle with their desire to mock and detach from the craziness of Stars Hollow and their families while still ultimately choosing to be a part of it and help out when they can 

They're both very outspoken when it comes to defending what they feel is right even if it means that others might not like them 

They both think Rory is a nearly perfect princess even when I strongly disagree ;) 

And nearly none of these also apply to Christopher, at least from my perspective. 

Sorry to ramble a lot, but I'm just really excited to have found this place! 

Edited April 25, 2017 by openwindow

[Melancholy]

They both value their family, even though they'll snark on their difficult family. 

They both grew up very fast because important life events occurred off schedule, Lorelai's pregnancy and Luke losing his parents when he was very young. It meant that they were precocious in knowing how to provide for themselves even without the structure of a college degree but they didn't socialize normally as young adults. 

Luke has a similar awe to Lorelai about April in how he parented such a perfect genius. And Lorelai teased teenage Rory somewhat similarly to how Luke teased Jess, even though the boys had a rougher edge. There was also a similar instinct to draw a hard line about having sex in S3....but then, to have trouble enforcing it.

They are softies who can get carried away with indulging beings that can't function on their own in this world even beyond normal help. This is especially the case with Paul Anka and Kirk. Like buying steak, cooking steak, blowing on steak so Paul Anka gets it faster. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Melancholy

[openwindow]

Those are such great additions, @Melancholy! Your last one reminded me of the fact that they have a soft spot for oddballs in part because they're both oddballs, both full of quirks and not fully feeling part of the mainstream (and, in Lorelai's case, the life that she was allegedly supposed to lead)

[elang4]

I have to say that Luke and Lorelai, despite some flaws in their relationship, has to be my all time favourite otp in any tv show or definitely up there for me. I just love their genuine friendship and how they are both there for each other if needed. Luke was also the only guy who knew Lorelai and Rory came as a package and respected that but I also liked how he had his own sweet relationship with Rory as well. :)

[Melancholy]

Thank you! I like this activity! For more:

They're both bent on giving Rory and April the world. They'll dramatically step out of their preferences and life choices to give their daughters what they ask for. Lorelai getting into every aspect of Rory's Coming Out Party. Luke traveling with the math team on a loud, aggressively structured trip or throwing a big birthday party for April. They're also very easy sells to do something if an authority figure merely claims it's important for Rory or April even if there's not a clear logical link. Lorelai being a Chilton Booster, Luke learning to Swim. 

They both have guilt about Rory and April, which partly counts for the indulgence. It just comes from opposite gendered types of bad co-parents- Lorelai felt bad she couldn't give Rory a proper nuclear family because Christopher was so irresponsible and absentee, Luke felt bad that he wasn't a bigger part of April's life because Anna wanted to single mom so badly that she lied and bullied to do it. 

Unlike some, they don't leave their social conscience at the door just because they're rolling with monied Richard and Emily. Lorelai was polite and friendly to maids numerous times. Luke was friendly to the maid on his first dinner, had to apologize that diner owner as Emily and her realtor were cackling about his business was failing and they could scoop his property for nothing.

On the negative side, they both don't have any self control over their temper. When they're annoyed or contemptuous over something, much less actually by angered something, they basically always go on some kind of tirade or snarkathon. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Melancholy

[openwindow]

@Melancholy, these are perfect! I'm a little jealous to find other people who are so much better at analyzing LL than I am, but I consider myself very lucky to have found you guys  ;) 

[junienmomo]

On 4/25/2017 at 9:46 PM, Melancholy said:

Luke learning to Swim

Love this thread! Very entertaining and insightful.

Facepalm for bad continuity on Luke and swimming. A boater and fisherman who couldn't swim so much that he needed to attend an adult swim class? Then ASP followed it up with him being a lifeguard in the revival, not to mention Lorelai earlier saying something about Luke at the lake, as if he would go to just hang out and not swim. Rosenthal slipped up on that one.

[itgetseasier]

My Luke and Lorelai! My love for them has endured through rocky writing and AS-P's highly questionable directorial choices, and I like to believe that their love for each other has survived all their obstacles as well. :)

Couples often take a bit of tiem to grow on me, but I fell for Luke and Lorelai from their very first scene in the pilot. Before they even got around to calling each other Junkie and Angel, I knew they were soulmates.

I agree with every scene people named as favorites. I also agree that like most TV pairings they had too many of their best moments before finally getting together, but I've been watching S5 again and think they have a ton of beautiful, funny and touching little moments that season too. 

My goal for the summer is to write a Java Junkie fanfic. One in which Paris is actually Lorelai's daughter and Luke's step-daughter, because I have little tolerance for Rory these days, though that's for another thread. And I like to think that Paris would have called out Lorelai and Luke on their frustrating communication issues far earlier in their relationship! 

[AsYouWish]

Hi everyone! I posted this on the all episodes discussion thread but realized most of it might belong here instead :)

I was rewatching a lot of favorite individual scenes this week, which seems to work for me better than trying to watch full episodes and invariably getting frustrated all over again with way too many aspects of this show. I was struck again by how great I think Lorelai and Luke could have been. They had such a powerful connection that first season and through some of Season 2 and a lot of Season 4 too. A lot of sparks, tension and humor came from how different they are on the surface, but what really got me and presumably some of their other fans were the moments when we see how well they connect and understand each other despite those differences, and how maybe they weren't in fact that different after all.

Like many of you have discussed, the writers could have used a pairing between two people who seem opposite to show how they complement each other and fit together because each has what the other is lacking, like puzzle pieces that connect perfectly because one zigs just where the other zags. The writers could have shown how these two very flawed but good people challenged each other to be better, like with Luke bringing out the more down to earth, calm and stable aspects of Lorelai and Lorelai bringing out the more extroverted, fun-loving and less change-phobic side of Luke.

The writers could have shown us the ways that they're actually more alike than people would suspect. For starters, they are both, often by decisions of their own making, fundamentally lonely people who have trouble fitting in to most of the environments they were a part of. Instead, the Gilmore Girls writers chose to keep showing us how Luke and Lorelai's differences left them unable to communicate and understand each other. LL were extremely close friends before dating, but viewers first tuning in during Season 5 could be forgiven for thinking these two were still relative strangers who had no emotional history at all and had never learned anything about each other or practiced having an actual conversation. And viewers first tuning in to Season 6 could very reasonably have concluded that we were not supposed to root for this couple at all. 

LL just could and should have been so much more! They deserved better. I'll try to find the silver lining by reminding myself that ASP's many mistakes inspire more and better fanfic because viewers can't resist the urge to try to give LL the love they should have had on screen. 

[clack]

Were Luke and Lorelai ever truly close friends? Before they became romantically involved, did we ever see them just hang out with each other?

All we see is Lorelai and Luke exchange comments while Luke waits on Lorelai and (usually) Rory at the diner, or Luke volunteering to run some errand for Lorelai or help her with some home repair project. They don't socialize -- don't go out walking together, or play some board game in the evening  together, or go out for drinks, or go to movie, or concert, etc., any of the things that friends do with each other.

[elang4]

1 hour ago, clack said:

Were Luke and Lorelai ever truly close friends? Before they became romantically involved, did we ever see them just hang out with each other?

All we see is Lorelai and Luke exchange comments while Luke waits on Lorelai and (usually) Rory at the diner, or Luke volunteering to run some errand for Lorelai or help her with some home repair project. They don't socialize -- don't go out walking together, or play some board game in the evening  together, or go out for drinks, or go to movie, or concert, etc., any of the things that friends do with each other.

To be fair, Luke worked all day every day and would go to bed early because he had to get up early. When they needed each other, they were there for each other and they had that movie night in season 4 as well. And they would chat when Luke would go over to help fix stuff round the house. I think they were close friends. ?

[clack]

1 hour ago, elang4 said:

To be fair, Luke worked all day every day and would go to bed early because he had to get up early. When they needed each other, they were there for each other and they had that movie night in season 4 as well. And they would chat when Luke would go over to help fix stuff round the house. I think they were close friends. ?

Luke could have found time  -- and indeed did, for his daughter and when he was dating.

An unexplored theme was Luke's loneliness. Luke had no friends. He spent all day at the diner, then went upstairs to --  what? watch TV? read books? the newspaper? listen to music? We never find out.

The fact that Luke when he wasn't dating had no social life, explains why he was always so eager to run over Lorelai's house to help her with repairs and such. He was lonely. 

Lorelai hung out with Rory and with Sookie. Briefly chatting with Luke at the diner while he waited on customers doesn't really count as hanging out, unless you say that Kirk was also "hanging out" with Luke.

I think there was a good narrative reason why we never saw Lorelai and Luke socialize one-on-one together. It would not be plausible that two people who were attracted to each other could, over the span of five or six years, spend time alone together and not make evident their feelings.