S01.E04: Episode 4

[Nampara]

All of which is why it's long been true that men can marry down, that doesn't mean it's not expected that the wife will try to dress and act as befits her new status. None fo this contradicts anything.

 

It wasn't intended to contradict anything. It's an explanation, not an argument.

[marys1000]

This was on wiki

 

The series comprises 12 novels. The first seven are set in the 18th century, concluding in Christmas 1799. The remaining five are concerned with the early years of the 19th century and the lives of the descendents of the main characters of the previous novels.

 

 

So if we are up to Christmas? The remaining episodes better still have Ross and not just his progeny!

[HalcyonDays]

All of which is why it's long been true that men can marry down, that doesn't mean it's not expected that the wife will try to dress and act as befits her new status. None fo this contradicts anything.

 

I don't think even the men could truly marry down, which is why the episode had many of those men and woman saying that this would ruin Ross. That's why some of the investors didn't want to give anymore money to Ross. The people were supposed to marry within their own classes, to maintain their reputations, keep the family name strong and ensure wealth stayed within the same classes and family. At least that's how I understand it.

 

The man however could take a 'lower-class' person as a mistress. That isn't a problem, of course.

 

Also, women were of course not subject to the same rules as the men, even in their own 'class'. That's why we had that scene in the previous episode were Elizabeth told Ross that Francis thought it was unladylike to take interest in the mine. Women's minds were 'weak' and 'prone to illogical emotion',and therefore could not understand the 'intricasies' of running a business. *rollseyes* I know this didn't apply to 100% of all relationships/families, etc, but a fair amount had this attitude from what I know, at the time (hell, even now). Again, that's at least how I know it.

 

This really is a great show. The characters are really engaging and I find the story very entertaining. Oh, and shallow comment of the day - a naked Ross/Aidan Turner is a wonderful thing.

[jjj]

This was on wiki

 

The series comprises 12 novels. The first seven are set in the 18th century, concluding in Christmas 1799. The remaining five are concerned with the early years of the 19th century and the lives of the descendents of the main characters of the previous novels.

 

So if we are up to Christmas? The remaining episodes better still have Ross and not just his progeny!

There is a thread on the books where someone could answer your question about the book timelines.  But we are not anywhere near 1799! 

[HalcyonDays]

There is a thread on the books where someone could answer your question about the book timelines.  But we are not anywhere near 1799! 

 

Here is a link to that thread:  Poldark Now, Then and Before - The Books, the Original Series and the Remake

[Nampara]

So if we are up to Christmas? The remaining episodes better still have Ross and not just his progeny!

 

The TV timeline explicitly begins in 1783 (same as the books), because Ross is wounded in the year given as 1781 and returns to Cornwall "two years later." After that, it's not clear in the series exactly how much time passes until the events of episode 4, because we are not given Demelza's exact age when she arrives, nor do we know how exactly much she ages before she and Ross marry. Demelza seems to have been with Ross for about two years at most in episodes 1-3, but even that is not entirely certain. The first book ends at Christmas 1787, and we know that the television timeline cannot end any later than that date, because if anything, less time has passed on-screen. Also, we know that as of episode 4, the French Revolution has not yet occurred (because of some snippets of conversation at Trenwith).

 

My impression is that the program is being deliberately fuzzy about the calendar and assuming most viewers really won't care. Maybe at some point in a future episode there will be a reference to a contemporaneous historical event that enables the viewers to learn the exact year in the story.

[Nampara]

I don't think even the men could truly marry down, which is why the episode had many of those men and woman saying that this would ruin Ross. That's why some of the investors didn't want to give anymore money to Ross. The people were supposed to marry within their own classes, to maintain their reputations, keep the family name strong and ensure wealth stayed within the same classes and family. At least that's how I understand it.

 

Yes, that was indeed the general rule. See my post above in this thread for a discussion of how a rare exception might occur.

 

Within the context of episode 4, one thing we have to remember is that all the dire predictions about Ross's coming ostracism, including the warning from Francis, were based on a "once a maid, always a maid" assumption. Everyone took it for granted that Demelza's humble origins always would remain grossly apparent from her comportment. No one expected the startling transformation that Demelza proved capable of making. For example, John Treneglos knew where Demelza came from (we can be sure his wife, Ruth, abused his ears with that information). But after John met Demelza, was there any chance that he would object to her presence at balls, social functions, or any table at which he happened to be sitting? None!

[Driad]

AIUI, at this time there were standards for a lady's appearance, including keeping her hair neatly under control. Surely Verity would have pointed this out and offered suggestions and help to Demelza. The Christmas Eve dinner scene in which D appeared in the fancy dress was too dark for me to see her hair, but in other scenes with "upper class" people her hair was flying in all directions as it had before. People of the time would likely have thought that she looked like a hoyden, not a lady.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Driad

[Nampara]

The Christmas Eve dinner scene in which D appeared in the fancy dress was too dark for me to see her hair

 

It was pulled back and extremely neat.

[Llywela]

This was on wiki

 

The series comprises 12 novels. The first seven are set in the 18th century, concluding in Christmas 1799. The remaining five are concerned with the early years of the 19th century and the lives of the descendents of the main characters of the previous novels.

 

So if we are up to Christmas? The remaining episodes better still have Ross and not just his progeny!

There are many Christmases between the start of the series in 1783 and the conclusion of book 7 in December 1799. ;-) Episode four brings us only to the end of book 1.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

AIUI, at this time there were standards for a lady's appearance, including keeping her hair neatly under control. Surely Verity would have pointed this out and offered suggestions and help to Demelza. The Christmas Eve dinner scene in which D appeared in the fancy dress was too dark for me to see her hair, but in other scenes with "upper class" people her hair was flying in all directions as it had before. People of the time would likely have thought that she looked like a hoyden, not a lady.

 

I didn't think Demelza's dress was fancy at all, in comparison to Verity's Elizabeth's and Ruth's. Demelza's dress looked like printed calico  and very plainly cut, with little to no embellishments such as ruffles, smocking, etc.  So it looked more like a house dress than something to wear to a Christmas dinner with the family. The dresses of the others looked like silk (I doubt it was lawn or linen due to it being winter. ) There's an old counting game which is similar to Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor, Rich man, Poor Man, Beggar, Thief. This counting game goes "Silk, Satin, Calico (or Cotton), Rags" , the descending order of expensive to, well, less than cheap.  Calico is on the cheap end.

[Driad]

 

Thank you, Milz.  As I said, I couldn't see that scene very well, but since D was making a grand entrance I guessed she had a fancy dress.  I'm still wondering about her hair though.  Maybe, as in some other historical dramas, someone wanted her to look attractive by 2015 standards (messy hair is not my taste but it is some people's) even though it was not historically accurate.

[Llywela]

I think Demelza's hair during that Christmas at Trenwith is kept on the simple and messy side to demonstrate that although she is beginning to adapt to upper class expectations, she still has a long way to go. She wouldn't even have anything suitable to wear if Verity hadn't taken her shopping and shown her what to get (Ross was no help there; he didn't even expect her to change from her day dress). The bright red of the dress would have been the most striking thing about it, even if it weren't as fancy as it might have been - the Ross Poldarks still don't have a lot of spare cash to splash out. It may not have occurred to Verity to provide help for Demelza with her hair, or she may not have had the opportunity, and Demelza herself wouldn't know how to achieve a fancier style all by herself. She's still painfully new to this level of society - this is her first social outing of its kind, in fact. Baby steps.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

 

 

Thank you, Milz.  As I said, I couldn't see that scene very well, but since D was making a grand entrance I guessed she had a fancy dress.  I'm still wondering about her hair though.  Maybe, as in some other historical dramas, someone wanted her to look attractive by 2015 standards (messy hair is not my taste but it is some people's) even though it was not historically accurate.

 

 

I had to do some looking around, but this  1784 portrait of The Princess Royal, Princess Augusta and Princess Elizabeth has a "messy" look. It was probably shorter on the top and sides and  curled.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Three_Eldest_Princesses,_Charlotte,_Princess_Royal,_Augusta_and_Elizabeth_-_Gainsborough_1784.jpg

[Nidratime]

The bright red of the dress would have been the most striking thing about it, even if it weren't as fancy as it might have been

 

 

I wonder if red dresses have the same connotation in that period as they did in later periods, i.e., a color worn more by loose women? Red is a very attractive color, at least to me, so I can see why Demelza would select it, not thinking about how it might look against pale pinks, blues, yellows, and other more "acceptable" shades that a decent woman would wear.

 

ETA: LOL! I didn't see that photo you linked above before I wrote my comment. What do they have on? Pale pink, blue, and yellow! Heh!

Edited July 16, 2015 by Nidratime

[Nampara]

Stray observation: I think that Margaret the Consoler rather resembles Elizabeth. They have similar hair color and similar facial features. This resemblance may be a reason that the main male characters enjoy Margaret's company, in addition to her more obvious charms. For Francis, she is the "dirty" Elizabeth who won't freeze him out and who is not hung up on Ross (or at least not completely hung up on Ross). For Ross, she is the Elizabeth who doesn't tease and then retreat. And for George, she is the Elizabeth he can actually buy.

[Haleth]

It was pulled back and extremely neat.

And she was wearing the ribbon Ross gave her.  Sigh...

[HalcyonDays]

And she was wearing the ribbon Ross gave her.  Sigh...

 

i didn't even notice that!! *swoon*

[jjj]

I wonder if red dresses have the same connotation in that period as they did in later periods, i.e., a color worn more by loose women? Red is a very attractive color, at least to me, so I can see why Demelza would select it, not thinking about how it might look against pale pinks, blues, yellows, and other more "acceptable" shades that a decent woman would wear.

 

ETA: LOL! I didn't see that photo you linked above before I wrote my comment. What do they have on? Pale pink, blue, and yellow! Heh!

Red is a color that indicates wealth, because dying fabric red in this period was expensive.  I have an interest in the history of color, particularly paint (for walls), paint and ink (for manuscripts and portraits), and fabric -- all these have different issues, but there were great advances in creating color in the 19th century that we take for granted now.  It was possible to create colors -- but would a color change quickly, or fade, or wash out immediately?  (Issues for walls as well as dresses!)  But about red fabric, here is a short description: http://www.npr.org/2007/02/13/7366503/the-color-red-a-history-in-textiles

 

Also:  "Rich, deep, long lasting reds came from two sources, madder and kermes. Madder comes from the root of the madder plant, and was the principle dye used to achieve the bright red of the infamous red wool coats of the British Army in the 18th century. Kermes comes from the dried and crushed bodies of insects cultivated along the Mediterranean. A piece of leather dyed with kermes which was recently excavated from an Egyptian tomb was found to be as bright red as newly dyed material. Kermes is expensive because, not only is it bright and fast, but it required so many thousands of little insect bodies to produce just a small amount of dye, and it had to be imported from the Mediterranean. Madder was expensive because its cultivation was extremely painstaking, (requiring three years to grow and ten years for the ground to lie fallow), and the process of extracting the very bright Turkey Red was, besides being a closely held secret, very long and complicated."  http://renaissancedancewear.com/fabric_colors_in_the_renaissance.html

Edited July 17, 2015 by jjj

[Haleth]

^ Very interesting. Thanks for the info!

[DanaMB]

I was happy until I came here and read about all the scenes we missed.   It sounds like they cut half the episode and any romantic scene between Ross and Demelza where he lifts her to his horse, should never be cut.

 

 

This is why I gave up on the PBS airings and took it off my DVR. I'll watch the original version when I can.  To think of all the scenes cut from this episode that I would have missed? Ugh. 

[Eolivet]

Catching up on this, so I don't usually comment until I've seen the whole thing, but with this episode...how could I not?

 

It wouldn't be fair to call it my favorite part (as the Ross/Demelza of it all is downright swoonworthy), but I found myself unbelievably touched by the look that Francis and Elizabeth share as Demelza is singing. It's probably the most unexpected part of the scene for me -- Francis has been acting out and falling in with the wrong crowd and blinded by semi-irrational jealousy, and to me, Demelza openly singing about love seems to...I don't know, remind Francis about the things that matter, at least for the moment. That in spite of everything he's done, he really does love Elizabeth. I know we're probably not supposed to sympathize with Francis, but it was almost a revelation to see him looking at his wife (and her looking back at him) without suspicion or anger or doubt, just...affection. It was like Demelza cast a love spell on everyone.

 

And the scene afterwards was touching for me, as well -- Ross and Francis looking at (and admiring) Demelza and Elizabeth bonding. I found Francis' honesty and feelings there quite poignant, and the moment he and Ross shared made me remember that they were close once upon a time (as the narration told us). It was a true Christmas miracle.

 

I suppose I find the actor who plays Francis very effective -- he is deeply flawed and has certainly done terrible things, but the actor never plays him as malicious (so far in my viewing). He always seems in over his head. I don't find Francis as odious as George, but he's obviously also not as kind or generous as Ross. He's an interesting mix of good and bad, to me, and since he's been more on the "bad" side lately, it was nice to be reminded he's not all bad.

 

I'm a sucker for Christmas stories, and I just found so many aspects of this one so beautifully told. To me, this was sweet and heartwarming without ever crossing over into sappy and overdone. Just masterful.

[Nampara]

I found myself unbelievably touched by the look that Francis and Elizabeth share as Demelza is singing. It's probably the most unexpected part of the scene for me -- Francis has been acting out and falling in with the wrong crowd and blinded by semi-irrational jealousy, and to me, Demelza openly singing about love seems to...I don't know, remind Francis about the things that matter, at least for the moment. That in spite of everything he's done, he really does love Elizabeth. I know we're probably not supposed to sympathize with Francis, but it was almost a revelation to see him looking at his wife (and her looking back at him) without suspicion or anger or doubt, just...affection.

 

More regret than affection, I would say. Both Francis and Elizabeth realized that they did not share and probably would never share the kind of mutual deep feeling that was on display between Demelza and Ross. They both appeared to feel some pain over that, and also perhaps some shame for having allowed their marriage to flop with so little effort put in on either side to improve it.

 

But I agree that the song prompted Francis to reflect on his life and his family, if only for a short while. He failed to follow up his moment of enlightenment with any concrete steps to soften his relationship with Elizabeth. The departure scene the next morning is telling. The Nampara Poldarks exchange warm goodbyes with the Trenwith Poldarks, and then Ross and Demelza walk away arm in arm. Elizabeth glances briefly at Francis as if she expects, or even hopes, that he will take her arm and lead her back into the house. But Francis has turned and walked in alone. Elizabeth's face registers a quick "Nothing has changed" note of chagrin, and then she too re-enters Trenwith.

[kassa]

Men could marry down in practical terms.  Socially was where it came back to bite them.  Other men might find it amusing and admirable in a macho kind of way because of the audacity, but they had womenfolk of their own to deal with.  They would not/could not expect their wives to socialize with somebody "beneath" them.  And society was pretty much all they had outside of work.  Cut off from visiting your neighbors and peers, you were completely isolated.  You didn't just go home and watch tv and pursue your individual interests.  It wasn't like you could just make friends from a different neighborhood, or move. You grew up, lived and died among the same people and if you couldn't hang out with them you were screwed.  

 

Oh, and your "lower" wife's people probably weren't going to be any more welcoming to you -- everybody would just be ill at ease and self conscious.

 

Best (non-erotic) moment of the episode --- Verity's reaction when Demelza talks about pleasing him in bed!