Social Media and Behind the Scenes: AKA Everything Else Not "News and Media"

[dtissagirl]

Here's Guggie confirming he read it, it's a reply to a link: https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/713915540813664257

[AyChihuahua]

Open Letter?

If you google open letter Arrow, you'll find it. It was basically 1000 words of "Bitches be crazy...and whiny. Especially bitches named Felicity." Guggie acknowledged it on Twitter. It was, apparently, written by a woman.

 

The breakup was 100 percent necessary, although the storyline leading up to it was horrible and stupid and IMO damaged Oliver, Digg, and Thea...NOT Felicity. But I really think hey made a huge mistake having no one on Felicity's side. One single sentence from Digg that, no matter what, Oliver shouldn't have/didn't need to lie TO FELICITY would have gone far. Instead, inshow no one except Felicity had a problem with Oliver lying to and excluding Felicity, so she is set up as the outlier. 

 

)Btw, I dumped water on my little Acer Chromebook, and can't do percentage symbols or dashes or left parens anymore. I'm still amazed it's working at all and don't feel like spending money on a new one when it still basically works, but my posts might look a bit weird for awhile.)

Edited March 29, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[ComicFan777]

When do they think Felicity was whiny?  I still don't get it, but I've seen it a lot on the internet - in what instance can you construe Felicity was whiny?  She didn't even cry during the breakup.

Edited March 29, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks for the link and the explanation.

[Guest]

Ugh, MG acknowledged reading that crap? Why does he always acknowledge the haters? Same kinda goes for SA's response yesterday. He gave the haters attention. Not really the best message to send out, IMO. 

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I don't really get the benefit of acknowledging it? Unless you're also going to provide some counterpoints to that opinion, or disagree with it, or whatever. Which neither of them did.

[dtissagirl]

Maybe it's their way to stop repetitive mentions of the same thing?

[SonofaBiscuit]

)Btw, I dumped water on my little Acer Chromebook, and can't do percentage symbols or dashes or left parens anymore. I'm still amazed it's working at all and don't feel like spending money on a new one when it still basically works, but my posts might look a bit weird for awhile.)

 

I'm just going to post this here because I don't want to post here to tell you to check out the small talk thread.  You could use your virtual keyboard (which is a pain in the butt), or you could just copy and post the symbols that your keyboard won't type out into a word document or notepad, or something like that.  Then, when you need to use the symbols, just copy and paste them as needed.  Here, I'll type the ones you mentioned for ease of copying and pasting :)       (  % -     

[looptab]

I might be wrong, but I read both MG and SA's responses as "I'm aware of what you think. I still DGAF about it."

[apinknightmare]

I might be wrong, but I read both MG and SA's responses as "I'm aware of what you think. I still DGAF about it."

Possibly. It's just that when MG has been criticized in the past, he usually disagrees with it. I just find it interesting that he didn't comment on the criticism other than to acknowledge that he read it.

[kismet]

I'm not going to complain about something they didn't have to do in the first place, but they built up expectations by waiting to post for so long. Not sure why they didn't put that up months ago.

Well I'm not going to complain, but I can critique. Both SA & EBR are active on social media and made a promise when they won that they would do something by their own choosing they promised "something special". And I do think that if fans are devoting a significant amount of time to win awards for actors who routinely engage with their audience then those actors should do something like a properly shot thank you clip, especially after they built up the hype for months. I have seen Snapchats that have better quality and effort put into them. If it was another pairing of actors that rarely use social media or engage with their audience than I would say that the expectations are different, but for EBR & SA that clip was a big disappointment.

 

IIRC, there was some quote by someone (maybe one of the EPs?) some time ago about how they thought hate was better than apathy - in other words, as long as the show is creating social media buzz, it's all good (in their eyes).  Passion was preferable to apathy.

I tend to agree with this theory as well. Apathy is the death of any relationships/show/character. I may hate something or I may love it - but I still care. But when I can't find the effort to care about it that is the problem. For me the flashbacks & LL/BC in s4 (after her resurrect SL plot, which I hated) are perfect examples of things I am completely apathetic about, their presence in the episodes do not enhance or ruin my viewing experience at all - the moments just exist.

[looptab]

Possibly. It's just that when MG has been criticized in the past, he usually disagrees with it. I just find it interesting that he didn't comment on the criticism other than to acknowledge that he read it.

IIRC, (I'm basing this of what I remember of his Tumblr asks), when someone puts it politely to him, he'd just write something like "Well aware" or "Noted" but he'd go on offering counterpoints just to those who complained aggressively or rudely. So, I don't know, was the person that linked him the open letter the actual writer or someone else?

[apinknightmare]

IIRC, (I'm basing this of what I remember of his Tumblr asks), when someone puts it politely to him, he'd just write something like "Well aware" or "Noted" but he'd go on offering counterpoints just to those who complained aggressively or rudely. So, I don't know, was the person that linked him the open letter the actual writer or someone else?

The person who linked to him on Twitter wasn't the person who wrote it - he said so in another reply.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I have a problem with them acknowledging something like that letter too because it's some very hateful, sexist stuff. Also acknowledging the haters make them feel validated and that isn't something I appreciate either. And when I think MG said Felicity's reaction to the paralysis was like that because they didn't want her to react like last year after she was criticized by the haters for crying too much I can't help but wonder if they'll listen to what they are saying.

[thegirlsleuth]

Colton and Emily's Taylor Swift video had greater production value than the ship of the year video.  Oh well.  I bet Stephen and Emily are REALLY sorry they skipped that event since fandom didn't let them off the hook--not that they should have.

 

I would be all for the philosophy that hate is better than apathy, except it is always the female love interest that gets the hate rather than Oliver.  If they are going to do this, especially around Oliver's love life, they need to make a conscious choice to give the woman a voice and some in-story validation.  I have a lot more compassion for Laurel/Katie considering the unthinking fury and brutal misogyny being directed at Felicity/Emily. (edited because of spoiler)

Edited March 29, 2016 by thegirlsleuth

[looptab]

The person who linked to him on Twitter wasn't the person who wrote it - he said so in another reply.

Oh, Ok, thanks. Then I guess I don't see him bothering to answer to that. :)

 

///

 

The fun part is that the ongoing sentiment seems to be that Felicity has too much of a voice already, haha.

Edited March 29, 2016 by looptab

[lemotomato]

I have a problem with them acknowledging something like that letter too because it's some very hateful, sexist stuff. Also acknowledging the haters make them feel validated and that isn't something I appreciate either. And when I think MG said Felicity's reaction to the paralysis was like that because they didn't want her to react like last year after she was criticized by the haters for crying too much I can't help but wonder if they'll listen to what they are saying.

I'm pretty sure he didn't say anything about the haters when he talked about having Felicity reacting differently to the wheelchair storyline. The fact is, even professional reviewers commented on how much Felicity cried last season, and while we could argue that she had lots of good reasons to react that way, and singling her out was sexist, the fact remains that she did cry a lot.

 

The open letter and all the complaints about Felicity being a whiny selfish bitch all season are simply not based on anything that has happened on the show. Except for 406, a part of 408, and 416, she has been nothing but supportive and understanding of Oliver in everything-- encouraging him to be a hero without the darkness, supporting his mayoral run, understanding his need to go after DD and Ghosts instead of expecting him to be by her bedside after she got shot up. Just because some people completely ignore how Felicity was the only person in Oliver's corner in the first 5 episodes when Diggle, Thea, Laurel, and Lance took potshots at him doesn't mean that those episodes didn't happen. There's nothing that the EPs can do about their demands because how do they fix a "problem" ("Felicity is mean to Oliver!") that doesn't exist on the show? The issues are only in those complainers' minds.

 

Edited to add: I'd also like the think that any comment/letter that uses the word "bitch" multiple times to describe a character gets summarily rejected by MG and SA, whether they acknowledge reading it or not.

Edited March 29, 2016 by lemotomato

[dtissagirl]

I mean, I honestly truly hope nobody that works on Arrow, or at the CW, expected a positive reaction to O/F breaking up*, because that would have been disastrous. In a way, as disgusting as the attacks on Felicity are, it would have been much worse if people had been largely celebrating the break up in a super positive way.

 

* I do think the Guggie and Steve have their egos going for him that they hope fandom would ~appreciate the storytelling of it~, but 1. that's now how fandom works, and 2. LOL NO the storytelling here was atrocious and deserved to be panned.

[NumberCruncher]

The fun part is that the ongoing sentiment seems to be that Felicity has too much of a voice already, haha.

Yes, of course. She can only be a background character with no backstory and she must always be happy and funny. Them wimmins shouldn't have a story--especially if they're sleeping with the hero. ;)

[Belinea]

I am somewhat fearful of what will happen once the grave thing comes into play. Probably will be Felicity's fault. I don't understand what shows people are watching sometime. I mean, Felicity had a reason. Did I like her behavior in 4x16, not really but it is not that she acts like this every single episode. The problem goes back to the bad BM drama and Felicity seems to be the one to get all the hate for this storyline. 

 

But I have no idea whether or not they read that stuff and just get irritated or whether they take it to heart. I appreciate that SA tells people to stop watching if the show doesn't go their way but since he does read the criticism, I am not sure whether or not they talk about it. 

[NumberCruncher]

I doubt that they really take anything the fans say to heart. People are always pissed about something and I'm pretty sure TPTB are well aware of that fact. Just look at how many here (myself included) absolutely loathed the vast majority of what happened in S3 yet they still plowed on. Even the worst aspects of S3 they've been extremely keen to repeat in S4 (focus on contrived relationship drama, dropped storylines, subpar stunt work) which pretty much tells me that the fans don't have as much say as they think they do. Knowing that makes the rantings of that open letter even funnier.

[dtissagirl]

I think fandom loves to think we have influence -- when in most cases, the apparent influence happens when the showrunners, or  the showrunners' bosses at the network/studio, share the same opinion, and so the audience response becomes validation, rather than input.

[Morrigan2575]

I think fandom loves to think we have influence -- when in most cases, the apparent influence happens when the showrunners, or  the showrunners' bosses at the network/studio, share the same opinion, and so the audience response becomes validation, rather than input.

QFT

[kismet]

Colton and Emily's Taylor Swift video had greater production value than the ship of the year video.  Oh well.  I bet Stephen and Emily are REALLY sorry they skipped that event since fandom didn't let them off the hook--not that they should have.

 

I would be all for the philosophy that hate is better than apathy, except it is always the female love interest that gets the hate rather than Oliver.  If they are going to do this, especially around Oliver's love life, they need to make a conscious choice to give the woman a voice and some in-story validation.  I have a lot more compassion for Laurel/Katie considering the unthinking fury and brutal misogyny being directed at Felicity/Emily. (edited because of spoiler)

It does seem that with this fandom the female cast does seem to taking a lot of unnecessary hate hits. I do think FS is getting a lot of undue hate with this BMD/break-up which makes very little sense when you step back and look at the reasons for the break-up. Honestly, though that falls on the writers who threw her under the bus with how they built up this BMD & contrived break-up. If they had taken just a few minutes in each BMD episode to give her an opportunity to give her POV without the snark it might have made worlds of difference or perhaps not with some of these "fans".

 

As much as I believe that hate is better than apathy in showing that people are invested in something, I do not think it is something that writers or a show should be aiming for. It's one thing to use that philosophy to process & filter opinions/analysis. It's a whole other thing to intentionally aim for hate or at least not prevent it. I feel like the writers are gunning for the negative attention at times and that is not a good philosophy or strategy.

[looptab]

Opportunity to give her POV, period.

Edited March 29, 2016 by looptab

[Midnight Lullaby]

I'm pretty sure he didn't say anything about the haters when he talked about having Felicity reacting differently to the wheelchair storyline. The fact is, even professional reviewers commented on how much Felicity cried last season, and while we could argue that she had lots of good reasons to react that way, and singling her out was sexist, the fact remains that she did cry a lot.

The open letter and all the complaints about Felicity being a whiny selfish bitch all season are simply not based on anything that has happened on the show. Except for 406, a part of 408, and 416, she has been nothing but supportive and understanding of Oliver in everything-- encouraging him to be a hero without the darkness, supporting his mayoral run, understanding his need to go after DD and Ghosts instead of expecting him to be by her bedside after she got shot up. Just because some people completely ignore how Felicity was the only person in Oliver's corner in the first 5 episodes when Diggle, Thea, Laurel, and Lance took potshots at him doesn't mean that those episodes didn't happen. There's nothing that the EPs can do about their demands because how do they fix a "problem" ("Felicity is mean to Oliver!") that doesn't exist on the show? The issues are only in those complainers' minds.

Edited to add: I'd also like the think that any comment/letter that uses the word "bitch" multiple times to describe a character gets summarily rejected by MG and SA, whether they acknowledge reading it or not.

"After she was criticized by the haters" isn't something Marc said, I didn't realize my sentence could be read that way, my bad. I meant: Marc said Felicity's reaction to the paralysis was different from what would have been last year because this year they wanted a lighter tone. Then I was saying that this conclusion came after last year Felicity was criticized for crying too much, for not being funny enough. Those were the critics.

Regardless I don't like the message they send. They make them feel validated and I imagine this isn't the first letter they are going to get after they told them they read them.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[tv echo]

This part of that open letter told me all I needed to know about the writer's preferences (none of which included Felicity):

Like Season 3, it started out well. Huge plots were introduced that had enough content to last the season: mayoral campaign, Damian Darhk, Diggle and Hive, Thea’s blood-lust, Laurel’s love for her sister. This would be the return of the quality I had seen in Season 1 and Season 2.

Edited March 30, 2016 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

Ugh, I started reading some of the comments on the open letter.  Apparently if you don't think Felicity is a emotionally abusive, cold bitch who cries every time she doesn't get her way  (from the letter) you are not a "real fan" of Arrow.  There is a reason why I hate Facebook.

[thegirlsleuth]

It does seem that with this fandom the female cast does seem to taking a lot of unnecessary hate hits. I do think FS is getting a lot of undue hate with this BMD/break-up which makes very little sense when you step back and look at the reasons for the break-up. Honestly, though that falls on the writers who threw her under the bus with how they built up this BMD & contrived break-up. If they had taken just a few minutes in each BMD episode to give her an opportunity to give her POV without the snark it might have made worlds of difference or perhaps not with some of these "fans".

I think this was partially caused by the fact that people didn't respond to Oliver's "dilemma" in 4.08 the way they thought people would.  I  really think they expected viewers to say "Poor Oliver! Forced to keep a secret to see his son!" when the universal response was "Screw baby mama.  Oliver should tell Felicity.  She can keep a secret."  Since then they have bent over backwards to make Oliver the good guy.  I thought it was telling that they never had Oliver lie on screen about it--he was clearly visiting the child, and would have had to lie to his wheelchair-bound fiance to do it, but other than vague mentions after the fact of "visits to Central City" there was no "Hey Felicity!  I have to go to CC to visit Cisco about suit upgrades!" In addition, having Thea and Diggle endorse his decision puts him in the right.  Finally, Felicity objecting to him cutting her out of decision rather than him lying is a way of her character co-signing the lie as well. 

[lemotomato]

This part of that open letter told me all I needed to know about the writer's preferences (none of which include Felicity):

The letter writer also weakens his argument when he says that he liked the beginning of season 4, which was when Olicity was stable and happy. Yes, MG. Give us more of season 4A! 

[way2interested]

"After she was criticized by the haters" isn't something Marc said, I didn't realize my sentence could be read that way, my bad. I meant: Marc said Felicity's reaction to the paralysis was different from what would have been last year because this year they wanted a lighter tone. Then I was saying that this conclusion came after last year Felicity was criticized for crying too much, for not being funny enough. Those were the critics.

Regardless I don't like the message they send. They make them feel validated and I imagine this isn't the first letter they are going to get after they told them they read them.

 

I get what you mean. I dislike the unintended validation that it gives as well. Like, in reality, it wasn't like they thought that Felicity was whiny or had no reason to cry, but that they, like a bunch of the fandom, were just tired of it because of the continuous feelings of Felicity being kicked while she was down emotionally. They felt it, EBR felt it, fans felt it, and even the haters felt it (although for completely different reasons), so they decided to change it, simple as that.

 

Then, come 401-403, they come back with a Felicity who is extra-comical, a CEO, and even shooting a machine gun at a metahuman. Fans love it, critics love it, and even former haters come back with "this is the Felicity that I like and remember from s1-2." Personally, I felt that the writers did overcompensate a bit to get that love back to Felicity, but upon re-watch, I didn't really care because I actually really liked it and felt that it was still good with her character. However, on the other side, some of the haters came back feeling validated that Felicity was never going to be "s3 Felicity" again because of all of the complaints that people had for Felicity "crying in every episode." Then, come 404, when Felicity did cry over listening to Ray's message, they started to feel betrayed again only to start the rampage again for 406 and 408.

 

To me, 406 and 408 even proved that they weren't changing Felicity's reactions because of what haters said about her crying a lot. They were changing Felicity's emotional reactions to plots like 410-413 to make her more optimistic because that's a more appealing characteristic to root/write/execute for on tv in general (not to mention probably easier and more motivational to act for EBR), but some people take it as kind of a relapse into s3 and again completely dismiss the reasoning behind any emotional scene for Felicity.

 

It just was a coincidence that what haters wanted slightly related to what the writers wanted but it is received as validation that is contradicted now every time Felicity is emotional in the slightest. I can't necessarily feel sorry for them because the writers were just doing what they wanted as per usual. It's never exactly the way I want it, so I can't penalize the writers for not being exactly the way they want it either.

[Morrigan2575]

Instagram pic from EBR showing off her Abs and shirt.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDjK3YICKYq/

[lemotomato]

"After she was criticized by the haters" isn't something Marc said, I didn't realize my sentence could be read that way, my bad. I meant: Marc said Felicity's reaction to the paralysis was different from what would have been last year because this year they wanted a lighter tone. Then I was saying that this conclusion came after last year Felicity was criticized for crying too much, for not being funny enough. Those were the critics.

Regardless I don't like the message they send. They make them feel validated and I imagine this isn't the first letter they are going to get after they told them they read them.

I guess my point was that there's a big difference between what critics say based on actual events on the show, and what fans say based on stuff they've made up in their heads. Even EBR acknowledged that she wasn't a fan of Felicity crying a lot in season 3. I think that's why MG commented on how Felicity's response to tragedy in season 4 will be different from season 3. I don't think a fan's poorly composed, pejorative-filled letter is going to influence the EPs decisions for next season. 

 

As for validating them, neither MG nor SA have ever shied away from responding to negative comments, reasonable or not. I don't see how this instance is any different.

[wonderwall]

Instagram pic from EBR showing off her Abs and shirt.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDjK3YICKYq/

I just ate a really fattening meal and this is just making me feel terrible.

Those abs *insert hearteyes*!

[Midnight Lullaby]

I guess my point was that there's a big difference between what critics say based on actual events on the show, and what fans say based on stuff they've made up in their heads. Even EBR acknowledged that she wasn't a fan of Felicity crying a lot in season 3. I think that's why MG commented on how Felicity's response to tragedy in season 4 will be different from season 3. I don't think a fan's poorly composed, pejorative-filled letter is going to influence the EPs decisions for next season. 

 

As for validating them, neither MG nor SA have ever shied away from responding to negative comments, reasonable or not. I don't see how this instance is any different.

It's different to me because of the misogynist content and the language of the letter. I have a problem with a person talking about a woman in that way feeling the writer and the actor of the show listen to her/his claim. I'm indifferent to them acknowledging negative or positive comments but to give validation (not saying that was the intention but it's the result) to this type of behavior is problematic IMO.

[NumberCruncher]

Ugh, I started reading some of the comments on the open letter.  Apparently if you don't think Felicity is a emotionally abusive, cold bitch who cries every time she doesn't get her way  (from the letter) you are not a "real fan" of Arrow.  There is a reason why I hate Facebook.

But that's what makes me LOL the most. WTF is a "real fan" anyway? By definition, anyone who likes and watches the show is one. If people want to watch just for action then that's great. If people like the romance and want to ship to their heart's content--have at it. If people are just hate-watching the show then that's their right too. There's no correct way to watch a show and it's pointless to think otherwise.

[lemotomato]

It's different to me because of the misogynist content and the language of the letter. I have a problem with a person talking about a woman in that way feeling the writer and the actor of the show listen to her/his claim. I'm indifferent to them acknowledging negative or positive comments but to give validation (not saying that was the intention but it's the result) to this type of behavior is problematic IMO.

Ah, OK. I thought what you meant by validation was that reading the letter = admitting the letter had any merit. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Instagram pic from EBR showing off her Abs and shirt.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDjK3YICKYq/

 

 

Hot. DAMN.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Ah, OK. I thought what you meant by validation was that reading the letter = admitting the letter had any merit.

No, no. I meant giving that person the attention she wanted and the comments about MG and SA hopefully finally listening to them that followed tells me they felt validated because of their acknowledgment no matter what MG and SA might think of that letter. And for the record I don't believe either of them appreciated the content or the language of it.

[wonderwall]

 

Hot. DAMN.

 

Those abs just make me feel so bad about myself.

 

#bodygoals #howdareshe

Edited March 29, 2016 by wonderwall

[NumberCruncher]

No, no. I meant giving that person the attention she wanted and the comments about MG and SA hopefully finally listening to them that followed tells me they felt validated because of their acknowledgment no matter what MG and SA might think of that letter. And for the record I don't believe either of them appreciated the content or the language of it.

Or *playing Devil's advocate for a minute* MG finally acknowledged it in order to get all of the people who were tweeting it to him over and over again off his back. Maybe he thought that by admitting he read it, they will be placated and they'll feel like they've "won" somehow. It doesn't mean that he has to agree with what was written or adjust the storytelling in any way. Think of all the dozens of critiques that the Olicity fans sent him over on Tumblr last season that were acknowledged and then ignored. If anyone suffers from a serious case of IDGAF, it's Guggenheim.

[kismet]

I think this was partially caused by the fact that people didn't respond to Oliver's "dilemma" in 4.08 the way they thought people would.  I  really think they expected viewers to say "Poor Oliver! Forced to keep a secret to see his son!" when the universal response was "Screw baby mama.  Oliver should tell Felicity.  She can keep a secret."  Since then they have bent over backwards to make Oliver the good guy.  I thought it was telling that they never had Oliver lie on screen about it--he was clearly visiting the child, and would have had to lie to his wheelchair-bound fiance to do it, but other than vague mentions after the fact of "visits to Central City" there was no "Hey Felicity!  I have to go to CC to visit Cisco about suit upgrades!" In addition, having Thea and Diggle endorse his decision puts him in the right.  Finally, Felicity objecting to him cutting her out of decision rather than him lying is a way of her character co-signing the lie as well. 

Responding in relationships.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Or *playing Devil's advocate for a minute* MG finally acknowledged it in order to get all of the people who were tweeting it to him over and over again off his back. Maybe he thought that by admitting he read it, they will be placated and they'll feel like they've "won" somehow. It doesn't mean that he has to agree with what was written or adjust the storytelling in any way. Think of all the dozens of critiques that the Olicity fans sent him over on Tumblr last season that were acknowledged and then ignored. If anyone suffers from a serious case of IDGAF, it's Guggenheim.

I'm not worried about MG, LOL. And I don't believe he agrees with what was written on it, SA even less.

*I* hate that some person wrote that thing, got exactly what she wanted = getting acknowledged by MG and SA and now feels her opinion is even more valid because she managed to get them to read it. Will it change anything? Probably not. Does it still annoy me because as a woman I find the content offensive? Yes.

It's my problem, no big deal, but in that moment I had a negative reaction to all of it.

[EmeraldArcher]

I would be all for the philosophy that hate is better than apathy, except it is always the female love interest that gets the hate rather than Oliver.  If they are going to do this, especially around Oliver's love life, they need to make a conscious choice to give the woman a voice and some in-story validation.  I have a lot more compassion for Laurel/Katie considering the unthinking fury and brutal misogyny being directed at Felicity/Emily. (edited because of spoiler)

I really agree with what you said in the bolded sentence (my bolding for emphasis), but I add another exception:

 

I would be all for the philosophy that hate is better than apathy, except when I start to hate myself for continuing to watch a stupid show.

 

I think MG and SA's interpretation of hating a character/storyline is based on their assumption that the character/storyline is complex and interesting and the audience is emotionally invested. Their problem is that they fail to understand that the audience might not find Oliver's same-old flaws still complex and interesting when he's this far along on his hero's journey. A lot of reviewers question Oliver's actions because heroes don't make those choices, and Oliver should no longer be this problematic of a hero.  I think MG and company failed to see that the choices Oliver has made in his personal life (lying to Felicity; protecting Malcolm) still count in his hero's journey. So, when I make an emotional investment of spending 4 years watching a hero's journey, the hate I feel for regressed characters/botched storytelling is not the kind that compels me to want to continue watching. I don't love to hate any of this in the way they think I should; I hate to hate it because I want a better return on my emotional investment by now.

Edited March 29, 2016 by EmeraldArcher

[dtissagirl]

I think this is actually emblematic of how shitty the whole system is. There's probably a research paper somewhere in here even.

 

There's a direct line between tv shows that have a history of failing its female characters, and the misogyny and internalized sexism in its fandom. Even more so, Arrow is deep into a comic book/superhero culture that's been historically awful to women [both real and fictional]. And there's also a first instinct that's very defensive, in creatives and in fandom alike, that wants to separate the show from the history. Because yeah, it royally sucks that the burden of the systemic erasure of women [all minorities, really] in media that came before should matter to ~my favorite show~ that I just wanna watch for pure entertainment, but THIS is why diversity, feminism, and representation in media is so fucking important, if only so audiences can learn social justice values by example.

 

So while I do get annoyed that this kind of problematic read of media got any attention from MG and Steve, I also end up thinking it's not that bad that they got to see how their show is perceived by the sexist part of the audience that they blatantly cater to, because it's their demo.

Edited March 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[thegirlsleuth]

I really agree with what you said in the bolded sentence (my bolding for emphasis), but I add another exception:

 

I would be all for the philosophy that hate is better than apathy, except when I start to hate myself for continuing to watch a stupid show.

 

I think MG and SA's interpretation of hating a character/storyline is based on their assumption that the character/storyline is complex and interesting and the audience is emotionally invested. Their problem is that they fail to understand that the audience might not find Oliver's same-old flaws still complex and interesting when he's this far along on his hero's journey. A lot of reviewers question Oliver's actions because heroes don't make those choices, and Oliver should no longer be this problematic of a hero.  I think MG and company failed to see that the choices Oliver has made in his personal life (lying to Felicity; protecting Malcolm) still count in his hero's journey. So, when I make an emotional investment of spending 4 years watching a hero's journey, the hate I feel for regressed characters/botched storytelling is not the kind that compels me to want to continue watching. I don't love to hate any of this in the way they think I should; I hate to hate it because I want a better return on my emotional investment by now.

I remember the night 4.08 aired and people exploded on twitter about how this secret keeping/lying was now out of character for the "new" Oliver, Guggenheim made some comment like "I didn't see you all objecting when he broke his "no kill" vow to save Felicity."  The general response was "That was two years ago, dumbass".  I really felt like in 4.01 - 4.07 were were seeing this next phase of Arrow, where Oliver was more open and where you saw him helping Diggle, Thea, and Felicity.  I loved that show.  Then the baby mama/10th round of stupidity with Malcolm tossed all the progress out the window.  I was PISSED when it went down the way it did not only because it made no sense, but because I felt like the writers had broken their promise to me that the problems that came up in season three (and I'm not referring to Felicity crying) were going to be addressed.  A plot that's driven by the main character being willfully stupid/keeping secrets from those he professes to love is a poor plot. It is my sincere hope that when they are charting out Season 5 that they plot the whole thing out, take their plans for eps 10 - 18 and throw them away, and come up with a new/less contrived plot.

[NumberCruncher]

So while I do get annoyed that this kind of problematic read of media got any attention from MG and Steve, I also end up thinking it's not that bad that they got to see how their show is perceived by the sexist part of the audience that they blatantly cater to, because it's their demo.

I think you're spot on here and I don't think it's just letters like this one that has exposed them to it. They haven't been blind for 4 seasons because it's been happening since the pilot aired. For as much as people hate Laurel and despite whatever shortcomings that character had/has, there was major misogyny in how some fans reacted to her even back in S1. To a limited extent, it also plagued how people reacted to Thea too. That's why I can't get too upset that Felicity has now become the latest to receive their wrath because any time the women characters of this show dare express anger or hurt over their situations--whether they're caused by them or by others--they're automatically branded as whiners and bitches. I have no doubt TPTB see it too but given that they keep writing storylines for their female characters that allow them to feel all emotions, for good or for bad, they're at least not letting the misogyny run rampant even despite their shitty writing.

Edited March 29, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[wonderwall]

LOL did someone on EW really say this about EBR/CH's video?

 

 

[calliope1975]

LOL did someone on EW really say this about EBR/CH's video?

 

 

I think that's a TSwift reference and her lawyers' penchant for sending cease and desist letters/suing people who use her songs in their videos. I don't think it's directed at EBR and CH.

[wonderwall]

I think that's a TSwift reference and her lawyers' penchant for sending cease and desist letters/suing people who use her songs in their videos. I don't think it's directed at EBR and CH.

 

LOL this is how little I care and know about TSwift :p Thanks for the clarification!