The Works of JRR Tolkien

[Joe]

All of them, because while I haven't read them all, I've enjoyed everything I have read.

 

So I've been listening to Corey Olsen's seminars on the Silmarillion. Very interesting. But in episode six, there's an interesting duscussion about subcreation, and why creators go bad. To one extent or another, Melkor, Aulë, Feanor. It's a pattern. And there was a moment when it suddenly sounded not just familiar, but personal.

 

I'm a writer myself. Nothing of mine is in publishable shape, let alone anywhere near the quality of Tolkien. But I spend a lot of time thinking about creation and implication. So it struck me as a bit of metacommentary on the craft. You can create something awesome, like the Lord of the Rings. Or, what's the other significant book written in the 20th century? Yes, I'm going to Godwin myself, Mein Kampf. From a certain point of view, Hitler was a creator gone bad.

 

Am I overthinking it, or do I have something approaching a valid point?

 

On a possibly equally controversial topic, I like Tom Bombadil. He gets cut out of adaptations for a perfectly good reason, he wanders around singing about his own clothes. He's immune to the power of the ring. He was shoehorned in because Tolkien liked him. But he does have one interesting trait. He demonstrates that not everything is known, not everything is classifiable. The David Day book and MERP both call him a Maia, but that's not right. If neither Tolkien or Christopher put a label on him, it's not right for anyone else to do so either. And that mystery, that sense of the unknown, is why I like him and his brief appearance.

[Mystery]

I like him because his creation allows me to watch Stephen Colbert spout lines of poetry like nobody's business. But I sometimes find myself skimming over him when I'm reading.

[ulkis]

The cartoon movie of Lord of the Rings was on the other night on TCM. Does that get a bad rap? I feel like I heard that. I don't know why, it seems like a truncated version of the movie. But I only saw it halfway through, maybe it gets horrible at the end.

Edited September 3, 2015 by ulkis

[Joe]

Here's an article about it. Warning, pretty harsh. But in its defence, it was the only cinematic LOTR we got until 2001.

[peacheslatour]

On 9/3/2015 at 4:43 PM, ulkis said:

The cartoon movie of Lord of the Rings was on the other night on TCM. Does that get a bad rap? I feel like I heard that. I don't know why, it seems like a truncated version of the movie. But I only saw it halfway through, maybe it gets horrible at the end.

It ends before the third book even starts. I heard they ran out of money. Other than that it's really not bad. They don't sugar coat the violence or the terror.

[Sharpie66]

The Bakshi film is why I was really surprised when Sean Bean was cast as Boromir by Jackson. In that film, Boromir is a hulking Viking type warrior, not the Sean Bean I knew best at that time as Richard Sharpe.

[Captain Carrot]

For anyone that's interested, Andy Serkis completed a Hobbitathon (I'm listening to it in stages, but feel free to do all 10 hours at once):

 

[VCRTracking]

The chapter in Two Towers about Shelob is great horror writing by Tolkien. 

[cherrypj]

Super interesting dive into the Siege of Gondor.

[Anduin]

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The chapter in Two Towers about Shelob is great horror writing by Tolkien. 

It really is. Cirith Ungol is one of those places I'd love to know more about, or even visit if the conditions were right. Which, being both fictional and destroyed, they'd never be. Ah well.

My love goes back to a review of some power metal album or another. The reviewer was a bit snarky. Talked about 'another trip through Cirith Ungol.' And it just kind of stuck with me.

[peacheslatour]

19 hours ago, Anduin said:

It really is. Cirith Ungol is one of those places I'd love to know more about, or even visit if the conditions were right. Which, being both fictional and destroyed, they'd never be. Ah well.

My love goes back to a review of some power metal album or another. The reviewer was a bit snarky. Talked about 'another trip through Cirith Ungol.' And it just kind of stuck with me.

I always wanted to know more about the Witch King of Angmar. IIRC they do touch on him a bit in the Silmarillion.

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

I always wanted to know more about the Witch King of Angmar. IIRC they do touch on him a bit in the Silmarillion.

I think everyone loves some weird bit of the universe. Yeah, the Witch King of Angmar is another great one, because he's got such a great title. The Witch King of Angmar! It's one of the best scary names out there!

[peacheslatour]

4 minutes ago, Anduin said:

I think everyone loves some weird bit of the universe. Yeah, the Witch King of Angmar is another great one, because he's got such a great title. The Witch King of Angmar! It's one of the best scary names out there!

It really tickles the imagination!

[Haleth]

On 8/28/2020 at 2:47 PM, VCRTracking said:

The chapter in Two Towers about Shelob is great horror writing by Tolkien. 

He apparently had a real phobia about spiders.  Just about every book he wrote had giant menacing spiders.

[Anduin]

52 minutes ago, Haleth said:

He apparently had a real phobia about spiders.  Just about every book he wrote had giant menacing spiders.

He was bitten by a spider when he was really young. While he claimed he didn't remember it, sometimes you have to be skeptical.

OTOH, spiders are one of the most common phobias. It's easy just to do a regular scary thing but bigger and meaner.

[Captain Carrot]

On 8/29/2020 at 5:46 PM, Anduin said:

I think everyone loves some weird bit of the universe. Yeah, the Witch King of Angmar is another great one, because he's got such a great title. The Witch King of Angmar! It's one of the best scary names out there!

I remember reading something from Harry Turtledove and he mentioned his theory that the Witch King didn't die in LOTR. I then reread the relative scenes and he might be correct. I forget the exact language, but the two relative parts are his 'death' and when the other Nazgul died. For the first it didn't say that he died. It said that he wasn't seen again in that age of the world. For the second part it said that all of the Nazgul present when the ring was destroyed died. (All of the Nazgul other than the Witch King were present. Why use that wording if he was dead)?

This would also make sense given given Tolkien's themes of everything (good and bad) diminishing. For evil overlords we go from Morgoth to Sauron to the Witch King.

[Anduin]

45 minutes ago, Captain Carrot said:

I remember reading something from Harry Turtledove and he mentioned his theory that the Witch King didn't die in LOTR. I then reread the relative scenes and he might be correct. I forget the exact language, but the two relative parts are his 'death' and when the other Nazgul died. For the first it didn't say that he died. It said that he wasn't seen again in that age of the world. For the second part it said that all of the Nazgul present when the ring was destroyed died. (All of the Nazgul other than the Witch King were present. Why use that wording if he was dead)?

This would also make sense given given Tolkien's themes of everything (good and bad) diminishing. For evil overlords we go from Morgoth to Sauron to the Witch King.

Interesting idea. So he could have been resurrected back in Mordor, like when Bruinen wiped him out previously? That could match up with the prophecy. Not by the hand of man will he fall. It could have been by the teeth of a twisted river hobbit instead.

[Captain Carrot]

On 11/14/2020 at 12:12 AM, Anduin said:

Interesting idea. So he could have been resurrected back in Mordor, like when Bruinen wiped him out previously? That could match up with the prophecy. Not by the hand of man will he fall. It could have been by the teeth of a twisted river hobbit instead.

More like he reformed after the events of LOTR (similar to how Sauron reformed a few thousand years after losing to Isildur) and became the next dark lord. Basically he wasn't around when the ring was destroyed, so he didn't die.

[Anduin]

26 minutes ago, Captain Carrot said:

More like he reformed after the events of LOTR (similar to how Sauron reformed a few thousand years after losing to Isildur) and became the next dark lord. Basically he wasn't around when the ring was destroyed, so he didn't die.

That's a depressing thought. As much as I like him, I'm glad he was gone. Though if he did reform, and Middle-earth is supposed to be our mythical prehistory, it could explain a lot about our modern world.

Naah, I think him surviving to take over again would run counter to what Tolkien intended. More like, since the Ring was destroyed, he couldn't reform and stayed gone.

[Haleth]

The next book he began to write was about the rise of a cult of Sauron.  Maybe his intention was to have Angmar behind that?

[Anduin]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:59 PM, Haleth said:

The next book he began to write was about the rise of a cult of Sauron.  Maybe his intention was to have Angmar behind that?

I can see that. But ultimately, I just prefer the Witch-King dead.

[Haleth]

Hey, Anduin, did you see there's a new book coming out next year with some of the Professor's previously unpublished papers?  I'm sure it's a rehash of things we've already read in the volumes of The History of Middle Earth, but it's still something to look forward to.  For the cover alone. 😊

[Anduin]

10 hours ago, Haleth said:

Hey, Anduin, did you see there's a new book coming out next year with some of the Professor's previously unpublished papers?  I'm sure it's a rehash of things we've already read in the volumes of The History of Middle Earth, but it's still something to look forward to.  For the cover alone. 😊

Yep, looks interesting. But how many more Tolkien books are there in the works? When do we get the shopping and to-do lists? I suppose that as long as the books keep selling, the books will keep being published.

[Anduin]

Anyone a fan of Babylon 5? I was listening to the latest Exploring LOTR installment. Corey Olsen was talking about how the ring offers people what they desire. And I got an image of Morden fronting up to Tom Bombadil. I wonder how many of Bombadil's nonsense rhymes Morden would put up with before giving up in disgust.

Similarly, Bombadil vs Kosh as to who can be most enigmatic.

[Haleth]

Anduin, I know this is OT but I wanted to catch your attention.  I saw in the Wheel of Time forum you were trying (multiple times) to slog through the books a couple years ago.  Did you ever get through the first one?  What did you think?  I've never read them (and for some reason had a completely different idea of what they were) but was thinking of taking a look before the show starts.  From the trailer the show looks like just another pseudo medieval fantasy with magical people and mysterious prophesies (yawn), so I'd like to know if the books and/or the show are worth the investment.

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Anduin, I know this is OT but I wanted to catch your attention.  I saw in the Wheel of Time forum you were trying (multiple times) to slog through the books a couple years ago.  Did you ever get through the first one?  What did you think?  I've never read them (and for some reason had a completely different idea of what they were) but was thinking of taking a look before the show starts.  From the trailer the show looks like just another pseudo medieval fantasy with magical people and mysterious prophesies (yawn), so I'd like to know if the books and/or the show are worth the investment.

No. On my best attempt, I got as far as the evil religious people. I'm not given to any religion, but I know some people channel it for good purposes. I hate the trope of using religion as a shield or justification for wrongdoing. However, a lot of other people like the books, and at this stage I'm looking forward to the show.

In other news, to keep this on topic, I haven't bought the Nature of Middle-earth yet. It's $150 or so around my way, but if I wait until October there will be a $50 version. As far as I can see, the only difference between the two is fancier packaging, no additional content.

[Anduin]

So I finally got my hands on the Nature of Middle-earth. It's a bit of a struggle. Let's be honest, I didn't go into fantasy for the maths! I'm not great with numbers. I respect and indeed am related to people who are, but it's really not my thing.

On the other hand, I appreciate Tolkien trying to work everything out so it made sense. I don't know if he was a maths enthusiast. Didn't he sell the movie rights in order to fix a tax mistake? And from the footnotes, it looks like he might have made a few mistakes with this. Either way, I certainly go into worldbuilding digressions from time to time. I understand the urge to have it all clear.

Anyone else reading it?

[Haleth]

I have not but I would like to some time.  All of the scholarly works tend to be so repetitive.

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I have not but I would like to some time.  All of the scholarly works tend to be so repetitive.

It's not an easy read. So far it's all about the numbers. For instance, elves only have children when they're relatively young. What happens when they need to slog from Cuiviénen to the sea? Well, they walked for about thirty years a pop, then stopped for 130 years to raise children, then another 30 year hike, by which time the new generation was ready for kids... When presented like that, it's crazy stuff. But presented pretty drily.

[Anduin]

The second section picks up a bit. Not by much, but a bit. Tolkien elaborates on character description. The one bit that sticks in the mind, anyone of strong Númenoren descent is beardless. Aragorn, Denethor, Boromir, Faramir. And Éomer. Maybe I'm just tainted by the movie versions, but I really don't remember that at all.

Christopher Tolkien did a good job of assembling the Silmarillion. However, between this, Unfinished Tales, the History of Middle-earth, Beren & Luthien, the Fall of Gondolin, and the Children of Hurin, a person could probably assemble a different Silmarillion. Tolkien's thinking changed a few times over the years. I doubt anyone would do so, but it's possible.

Even once you've got the story outlined, chosen what to include and such, you've got the prose problem. Pieces will need completing, and who can write like Tolkien? The closest I've seen for prosiness is GRRM, but his themes are far too different. Also, there's his writing speed. Best to leave it. Still, I can't be the only one with this thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a few unofficial new Silmarillion ebooks floating around in the next year or so.

[Anduin]

In many ways, it's easier to dislike the sons of Fëanor than Morgoth. Sure, Morgoth is completely evil, but they're a kind of petty evil. They swore an oath to retrieve the Silmarils, but don't take any action until they hear someone else has the same plan. Then they come in all high-handed. "Those are ours! You'd better fork them over pronto or else there'll be trouble." If you want them so bad, how about you go up against Morgoth?

I hate the attitude of letting others take the risk while they swoop in to snatch away the prize.

Weirdly, Maglor never got a proper conclusion. He just wanders the western shore, all forlorn and such. I wonder if the wave that destroyed Beleriand got him too. Or possibly Círdan eventually convinced him to get on a ship. "It's okay, you repented for all the trouble you got up to. Time to go west." Given that Tolkien was so fastidious in mapping out almost every other detail, it's odd that apparently in all the supplementary information he never cleared that up.

[Haleth]

They were all spoiled, entitled brats. 😊

[cherrypj]

Possibly new website: https://www.tolkienestate.com/. See the Painting section, among others.

[Anduin]

New book coming out. The Fall of Númenor. The same assembly as Beren and Luthien, Fall of Gondolin, and such. Edited by Brian Sibley, who wrote the BBC radio adaptation back in the day. Admittedly I have those books, I just haven't read them. Will I do the same with this? Most likely. Such is the life of a completist. :)

[Haleth]

Oh, I will be all over that.  The fall of Numenor was so rushed in the appendices, I look forward to a more in depth recounting.  And it will look pretty with the rest (which I did read).  🙂 

[Anduin]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

Oh, I will be all over that.  The fall of Numenor was so rushed in the appendices, I look forward to a more in depth recounting.  And it will look pretty with the rest (which I did read).  🙂 

I don't think I've even started Children of Hurin. The Turin chapter in Silmarillion is too much of a downer. Yeah, let's have 300 more pages of being kicked in the teeth. I have it, for the art alone.

[Haleth]

I agree. Hated that story and I don’t plan reading it again. But the cover art is wonderful. Unfortunately of the 3 volumes that is the one that is most complete. The Beren and Luthien book compares the various versions and Gondolin is pretty disjointed. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Haleth

[Anduin]

In big news, the Embracer Group are buying Middle-earth Enterprises. That's the rights held by the Saul Zaentz Company, they don't have the rights to the books themselves. They say

Quote

Other opportunities include exploring additional movies based on iconic characters such as Gandalf, Aragorn, Gollum, Galadriel, Eowyn and other characters from the literary works of J.R.R. Tolkien, and continue to provide new opportunities for fans to explore this fictive world through merchandising and other experiences.

Reminds me of this picture.

[Haleth]

That doesn't sound good.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

That doesn't sound good.

I'm mostly keeping an open mind. However, Adam Whitehead has an interesting point.

Quote

With Amazon producing the Rings of Power TV show and having recently acquired MGM (and their rights related to The Hobbit), it was assumed that they would buy out the Saul Zaentz Company's rights. This move suggests that either Embracer offered far more money than Amazon were willing to pay, which seems highly unlikely, or Amazon decided it didn't want the extended franchise rights, which also seems unlikely.

Maybe Amazon weren't invited to the table. Maybe someone senior in the Zaentz hierarchy just doesn't like Bezos. That's fair enough, I don't much like him either. Still, they didn't swallow their feelings in search of pure greed? I don't know, it's just the only explanation I can think of right now.

[Grrarrggh]

Was just re-listening to LOTR and realised that the only part I've skipped every time (excluding the first listen obviously) is the Tom Bombadill chapter(s?). Hell, I've even given some of the poetry and songs a re-try. Am I the only anti-Bombadiller out there?

[Anduin]

13 minutes ago, Grrarrggh said:

Was just re-listening to LOTR and realised that the only part I've skipped every time (excluding the first listen obviously) is the Tom Bombadill chapter(s?). Hell, I've even given some of the poetry and songs a re-try. Am I the only anti-Bombadiller out there?

I like Bombadil. He's a merry old fellow. His hat is blue-- Okay, yes, I do like him. He's just so weird and out of place. But I can see how someone wouldn't like him for that very reason.

[cherrypj]

I just did a re-read, of LOTR, probably my 10th? 11th? Who knows. 

And … it was a struggle. I skipped Bombadil. I found myself taking in pages with a glance—“Okay, yep”—and flipping to the next. Forget about singing the songs to myself! Places where the books diverged from the movies where jarring.

I’m not sure I’ll ever re-read the books again. I know them too well. I still love them. I just love the movies more, particularly their brevity (compared to the books!!). 

[Haleth]

I tend to skip over the songs and poetry anyway.  Sacrilege, I know.  The only thing interesting about TomBom is that the ring had no effect on him.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I tend to skip over the songs and poetry anyway.  Sacrilege, I know.  The only thing interesting about TomBom is that the ring had no effect on him.

I'm not big on the poetry either, though I like Bombadil because he's so out of place. Just give me a bit of weirdness here and there. It doesn't have to be full on, just in small doses. Love it.

[Rose Quartz]

14 hours ago, Grrarrggh said:

Was just re-listening to LOTR and realised that the only part I've skipped every time (excluding the first listen obviously) is the Tom Bombadill chapter(s?). Hell, I've even given some of the poetry and songs a re-try. Am I the only anti-Bombadiller out there?

Nope.  I always skip that section.  I actually find the character annoying and don't understand why Tolkien wrote him the way he did.  Bombadil is the oldest being in the world and the ring has no effect on him and yet he can't be bothered / can't be trusted to help with the quest to destroy the ring?  Sauron will destroy the world if he wins and Bombadil is aware of the danger and yet all he does is sing and moon over Goldberry.  I just really don't get what Tolkien was going for there. 

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, Rose Quartz said:

Nope.  I always skip that section.  I actually find the character annoying and don't understand why Tolkien wrote him the way he did.  Bombadil is the oldest being in the world and the ring has no effect on him and yet he can't be bothered / can't be trusted to help with the quest to destroy the ring?  Sauron will destroy the world if he wins and Bombadil is aware of the danger and yet all he does is sing and moon over Goldberry.  I just really don't get what Tolkien was going for there. 

TomBom was a shout out to the Tolkien kids, the subject of many a bedtime story. The wonder is that the Unwins let JRRT keep this cameo in the book. 

[peacheslatour]

On 8/20/2022 at 4:53 AM, Haleth said:

I tend to skip over the songs and poetry anyway.  Sacrilege, I know.  The only thing interesting about TomBom is that the ring had no effect on him.

My favorite things about the Bombadil section are the food, his lovely Goldberry and the descriptions of her clothes.

[Anduin]

So. This hit a little close to home. I laughed, but sometimes it was a little uncomfortable. A little too familiar. Still worth watching!

[Haleth]

That is hilarious.

And I see nothing wrong with it.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Haleth