Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Haleth]

Also on the "a dude totally wrote that" part of the "Dany could feel her small breasts moving..."  Sorry, folks that don't possess them, but that's not quite how it works.  I'm sure women in comments sections have said, "Oh yeah, sure I was aware that I had breasts at that moment because of gravity, friction, movement.....but you know what women don't note?  Their size.  If they are your very own breasts, a) something needs to be happening with them that is worth commenting upon and b) the size doesn't enter into that.

 

The only thing that kinda makes sense is that Dany may note that her breasts are filling out and are more sensative due to her pregnancy.  I think that it the only time a woman gives her breasts a second thought.  Of course bouncing up and down on a horse all day might make any woman fixate on the wish for a good sports bra.

[Protar]

There is also the fact that in general an inner monologue in a novel will tend to dwell more on a character's physical details than a person actually would in their mind. I'm sure Dany isn't really thinking about her silver hair and purple eyes either. Which isn't to say some times the books get a bit male gazy, and the double standard in regards to men not thinking about their balls is a good point. You never see stuff written about that. But at least looking at it that way - as not being an exact representation of a person's thought process - it's "just" male gazy, rather than Martin believing that women actually think like that. Which I think would be more absurd. 

[Dev F]

The only thing that kinda makes sense is that Dany may note that her breasts are filling out and are more sensative due to her pregnancy.  I think that it the only time a woman gives her breasts a second thought.

 

The scene in question is from near the end of Clash of Kings, actually, long after she loses the baby. But there actually is an in-story reason why Dany would be mindful both of what she was wearing and what her breasts were doing at that particular point. (Vague CoK spoilers follow; basically just some books-only shading to the same basic story viewers of the show will be familiar with . . .)

 

The scene comes immediately after her confrontation with the warlocks of Qarth in the House of the Undying. She's been going around trying to win favor with everyone in Qarth by playing the well-dressed, civilized queen -- who, in the Qartheen fashion, wears a robe that bares one of her breasts. Now, after having been effed over by the warlocks, she decides, "If the Milk Men thought her such a savage, she would dress the part for them." So she's understandably conscious of the fact that she's now wearing a Dothraki vest that covers both breasts -- and it makes sense that she would take note of the irony that her body feel freer in her more conservative barbarian attire than in the haute couture of her host city.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Dev F

[stillshimpy]

But how about if you made it yourself, as we in fact know Sansa did, without a sewing machine btw, which took you WEEKS. Nobody in the world owns a washing machine. Nobody. The servants make mean faces and sneer at you when you get your clothes dirty because it's a lot of work for them...so there's THAT to look forward to.

 

Well, I just read this, so I am pretty sure that Cersei gave her the dress in question.  She's also from a rich family, so not exactly hurting for clothes.  Also, people she's known from childhood are still quite slaughtered, so I still think that an accusation of disproportionate response, based in gender, is in order.  

 

I'm standing by the "oh holy crickets, went to town with the girl cliches there, didn't you?"   assertions.  

 

But it has been an interesting discussion.  I particularly liked someone noting that guys just get to go places, without having to think about things that are rubbing, or bouncing, outside of erotica or a romance novel.   That had never really occurred to me ,but is a valid point.  Although, many years ago following some surgery, when I was drugged to the eyeballs kind of a lot, a friend said "Here, read these.  I love this author" and it was a historical romance novelist named Julie Garwood who used the most hysterically funny term ever:  Manstaff and I do remember she had her male leads occasionally noting what the "manstaff" was up to in not strictly sexual situations.   Admittedly, that was a romance novel so it probably doesn't count.  

 

Still funnier than hell though.  

Edited July 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Lady S.]

Well, I just read this, so I am pretty sure that Cersei gave her the dress in question.  She's also from a rich family, so not exactly hurting for clothes.  Also, people she's known from childhood are still quite slaughtered, so I still think that an accusation of disproportionate response, based in gender, is in order.

Yeah, Sansa making her own dresses is a show invention, and irrc, this chapter comes very soon after Jory's death, which she gives not a moment's thought to. This after watching Ser Hugh die and thinking she'd be more affected by the death of someone she knew, and while Arya and Bran are both affected by Jory's death. It feels there was a leap in shallowness from Sansa II to Sansa III(?). (You've gotten ahead of us in the re-read thread by now, and that's the one I'm trying to keep pace with.)

Well from my experience, if there's any sure fire way to make an audience hate a character, it's to make them stupid (or cowardly, but I don't know how much that applies to Sansa). People can forgive the most heinous of acts in fictional characters if the anti-hero is clever and charismatic. But you make a character kind of dumb, and especially if you make that stupidity harm the other more likeable characters and there'll be hell to pay. And for some strange reason (hmm what could it be?) this seems doubly true for female characters. Sansa wises up a lot in future books, but gods she is not very bright in aGoT.

And yet, she's still hated more than her father, a grown ass man whose own bad judgement got Robert killed and himself arrested. But no, he's just a victim of Littlefinger and Cersei, and his wife's bad judgment, and his 11yo daughter's. A grown ass man whose bad judgment does endanger plenty of other, likable characters, including his own family, is less culpable for the consequences of his bad choices than his very sheltered and naive 11yo child. I don't think Sansa's problem was ever lack of intelligence, it was not being prepared for how the world actually works. And whose fault was that? (oompa loompa voice) The mother and the father's. If Martin's thinking was to subvert tropes with Sansa, he could have started by not inviting the audience to choose a side so definitively in the Arya vs. Sansa conflict by having Sansa not only brush off Mycah's murder, but actually say that Arya should have been killed instead of Lady. It's one thing to deconstruct the idea of believing in false fantasy ideals and unrealistic happy endings, and it's another to deliberately write that character as the least sympathetic Stark child. And I think that authorial favoritism had more to do with Sansa being the stereotypical girly girl than with her naive ideals, since no male character is so punished for misunderstanding the world. The only I can think of that comes close

is the 1-shot Pov Arys Oakheart.

 

Yup, being below average intelligence is obviously worse than flaying people in fiction. Audiences have issues. I also often have heard, when I defended Sansa's right to be as silly and dumb as she pleases, that sure such characters do exist, but for heavens sake don't make me read their POVs. I want a Mace Tyrell* POV for that reason, just to piss people off.

 

*another not very popular character in ASOIAF that has done absolutely nothing but exist and being "allegedly" dumb.

OOoo, I'd love a Mace Tyrell PoV. Edited July 4, 2015 by Lady S.

[Protar]

I really don't think that Martin actually, in real life, favours Arya over Sansa. If that was the case then Sansa would continue to be vilified and painted as an idiotic throughout the books. So I will defend how Sansa was written in AGoT as a deliberate set up. You can argue about it's execution but I don't think this has anything to do with Martin favouring tomboys over girly girls. You can certainly see that favouritism in the show though.

 

ETA: And again, female characters often tend to get more flack for their flaws than male characters sadly. I mean in all fairness Ned at least has some modicum of awareness about the world, but yeah...sexism. 

Edited July 4, 2015 by Protar

[stillshimpy]

If Martin's thinking was to subvert tropes with Sansa, he could have started by not inviting the audience to choose a side so definitively in the Arya vs. Sansa conflict by having Sansa not only brush off Mycah's murder, but actually say that Arya should have been killed instead of Lady.

 

Yes, that was the point at which it became fairly clear that the "welcome to the Go Ahead and Hate Her" club had been laid out.  I think all Martin was doing there was sort of drawing a genetic line between Catelyn and Sansa.  Catelyn said a very similar, incredibly unforgivable thing to Jon and only had the barest of excuses because she hadn't slept, blah blah blah, doesn't really matter; she should not have said that.  However, nearly everyone can relate to moments of "well shit, stuck my foot in it that time, didn't I?"  

 

Martin took a couple of characterizations and used the This Is Spinal Tap! approach to turning it up to nearly absurd levels.  So Sansa having a fight with her sister touches on all sorts of issues between them -- Sansa has to be angry about Lady and you know, for a few words I'm going to depart from what was strictly on the page and go into that, if it's okay (and if it's not, I suppose you can just skip this post) -- and features her saying something designed to be incredibly cruel.  

 

That's actually the real stuff of sibling rivalry.  My husband is from a family of seven acid-tongued children.  Death-wishing was a part of any day ending in Y for most of their childhood.  Still, we know that Arya was horribly wounded by that comment, because we've seen her thought process.  We know Arya feels as if she was responsible for his death anyway.  We know how much that statement would cut to the damned bone, because it's a little too close to the stuff poor Arya tortured herself with anyway.  Anyone who has ever fought with a sibling knows full well that when you're fighting you'll say anything.  Doesn't need to be heartfelt.  Doesn't need to be even close to true; it's just designed to score a point.  Anyone who thinks they were fully above that at 11 likely has a faulty memory.  

 

In some ways it makes sense that Sansa has this absurd Spinal Tap reaction to that damned dress.  She probably is affected by Jory's death.  When people cry and rend their clothes in fiction when someone dies , it's not as close to the truth of sudden deaths as a weird feeling of unreality is.  Sudden and unexpected deaths are more likely to leave people numb and feeling like they've been emotionally mugged.  So for just a moment, I'm going to go ahead and give Martin some credit for what I think he was trying to structure there:  The remark is a genetic echo (apples, trees, falling)  and it's also a crack in Sansa's denial mechanisms.  I think Martin meant it to be projection which is a normal response, particularly when you're eleven and barely have the emotional self-insight to proportionately deal with your sister ruining your dress.  

 

Arya and Michah are clearly the victims in that "Lady Gets Killed" debacle, but from Sansa's perspective, one that wants to cling to her fantasies (as is normal for an eleven year old girl) ....the whole thing would seem to be Arya's fault.  Why wouldn't she just do what she was told?  Sansa is always casting about in her mind for the right thing to say and do.  The thing she was told to do.  I just found out where Little Bird came from as a nickname.   

We have access to all of Arya's inner thoughts and feelings.  From Sansa perspective she's her perpetually dirty, younger sister, who she really probably does blame for Lady's death because to Sansa "I do as I was taught" Arya is maddening on a good day to her.  

 

I don't know that Martin really was trying to make sure I hated Sansa, but I think he was taking two cliches: the gender role breaker and the rule follower and just writing them too crisply, with too little shading.   I think he forgot to add emotional layers to Sansa and the only hint he gave that there's more going on with Sansa's emotional process is that she woke up dreaming about her wolf.  Like women throughout history who only said what they were told to say, acted as they were told to act she's becoming a master of unhealthy emotional repression <---- that's what I think Martin was going for with this characterization early on. 

 

However, like a lot of men and a lot of people he just under estimated issues relating to internalized sexism (or misogyny), which is part of the reason that female characters are torn to shreds over the slightest transgressions -- and the more closely they hew to traditional gender roles, the more that comes into play...which is one of the reasons Arya's character doesn't get the same lambasting.  

Using that term tends to be like lobbing a damned grenade, because being accused of almost any kind of "ism" makes people really uncomfortable and often angry, but I don't mean it as an accusation.  I think most women can relate to the "as women, we are taught to attack one another as a form of interaction and self-validation" and kind of forget that the intent of encouraging that is to try and hold women back from any positions of power.   

People don't get places without the support of their peers in most power structures.  So we all fall a little bit victim to it at different points and it's a very knee-jerk reaction, deeply ingrained as part of social structure.  

 

I just don't think Marin initially got that that was what he was accidentally triggering with Sansa's characterization.   I think he really was just sort of underlining normal sibling rivalry by creating these polar opposite characterizations in the sisters.  Sansa is like Cat (and literally Cat's words issue forth from her mouth...this is not a subtle thing)  and Arya is a lot more like Ned...bullheaded, but good-hearted. 

 

Anyway, I think I understand what Martin was doing and just didn't get that he was playing with societal wildfire in the manner in which it was depicted.  Set Phasers to : GET THE GIRL  is just how it tends to go.  It's deeply uncomfortable to question as a response if you're busy having it too.  

 

But it is, or was (please let it fade into the past) , such a societal norm that for a really long time it was considered acceptable and normal to compliment a woman as another woman thusly, "You're so thin (pretty, tall, long-legged, insert societally encouraged form of beauty here _______),  I hate you!"  Said cheerfully.  With a big smile.  Like it isn't a fully poisonous thing to say.  Like there isn't a sort of sinister reason that a society might encourage women to praise each other in such terms.  Praise couched in a manner that encourages shame, self-doubt, a feeling of still being wrong somehow.  

 

So at a guess there are a bunch of men right now either saying, "Yeah, I've seen that....what the fuck is that?"  or who are completely baffled.  At another guess just about every woman here just recognized that description from actual real life, whether as a witness, a recipient or the person giving that "compliment".   That's the nerve that I think Martin didn't realize he was playing with in this story.  

 

But I think a lot of reactions to Sansa are related to that.  It's huge part of the reason I defend her so much.  I can't at present because the characterization is a bit thin, but I think the "evidence of Sansa's ability to repress her natural emotions" was what he was going for and just missed is all. 

 

Also, you know, it's not like I've never fallen victim to "Get the girl!" thing.  I just won't even go into that in-depth, but in a wholly unrelated conversation with a friend recently we were talking about how beautiful another woman was and how the older we get, the greater appreciation we have for many different kinds of beauty ....and how much more easily we can acknowledge that and...what the hell was that about?  What I came up with was that as I am less and less likely to look to outside sources for validation , I find that I don't question validating others.  That I no longer view anything as a competition or any other woman as a measuring stick against which to compare myself.   It's not that I'm so incredibly evolved or anything, I think it's a fairly typical process.  

But I have to admit, I don't know what my reaction to Sansa would have been had I read her many years ago.    I do think that issues of internalized sexism are being recognized and addressed more now, which is such a good thing.  It's kind of cool to be able to chart progress on issues involving gender though.   As I was reading this I did a mental check of when it was published: 1996 and Martin began writing it in 91 evidently?  

 

Yeah, I just don't think he knew the kind of "this is a societal issue coming to the fore" fire he was playing with in his contrasting characterizations.  

 

I could just be dead wrong, of course, but that's always going to be a given on any subject.  

Edited July 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

All sounds dead right to me :). 

 

What chapter are you on by the way? You've got past Ned meeting Cersei right? So you're on a Dany chapter.

[Skeeter22]

I've always thought that Sansa gets a bit of the Susan Pevensie treatment in the first book. Caring about stereotypical girlie things makes her automatically shallow. Martin clearly stacks the deck against her at every turn, and it made me roll my eyes the first time I read AGOT. Martin forgot that his audience already had prejudices before they started reading his book, he didn't need to be so heavy-handed in order to get people to like tomboy Arya more than princess Sansa. Reading it, I always felt he didn't have enough faith in his writing of Arya. Sansa's whole character exists to suck in comparison to Arya in the first book. It made me feel like Arya was a weak character more than hating Sansa. I also think Martin falls too easily in the trap that feminine things are automatically less worthy than male attributes. Sewing is every bit as important as skill with a sword in a medieval society, but it's clear we're meant to agree with Arya that Sansa and the things she cares about are dumb.

[Protar]

I've always thought that Sansa gets a bit of the Susan Pevensie treatment in the first book. Caring about stereotypical girlie things makes her automatically shallow. Martin clearly stacks the deck against her at every turn, and it made me roll my eyes the first time I read AGOT. Martin forgot that his audience already had prejudices before they started reading his book, he didn't need to be so heavy-handed in order to get people to like tomboy Arya more than princess Sansa. Reading it, I always felt he didn't have enough faith in his writing of Arya. Sansa's whole character exists to suck in comparison to Arya in the first book. It made me feel like Arya was a weak character more than hating Sansa. I also think Martin falls too easily in the trap that feminine things are automatically less worthy than male attributes. Sewing is every bit as important as skill with a sword in a medieval society, but it's clear we're meant to agree with Arya that Sansa and the things she cares about are dumb.

 

I don't think that last bit is true at all. I think Martin does a good job in presenting a wide variety of female characters and he doesn't hold the tomboy ones up above the more typically feminine ones. Something the show is at lot worse at by the way.

 

I think it's important, nay vital, to keep in mind that POV is a big part of the novels. We don't just see the events that the current POV sees, we see it through their perspective. The narrators are often very biased and unreliable, so if Arya thinks that sewing is stupid, then the story is going to tell us that sewing is stupid. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the case. 

[Skeeter22]

I think he does a better job in later books, but the first book sets the tone and people still judge Sansa purely on Arya' s opinion of her.

[Triskan]

Shimpy, I'm wondering, now that you've further down the book-road, are there characters you totally envision as their show counterparts (and if yes, which ones ?) and are there characters that, when you read about them, look nothing like the actors chosen for them in the show ?

[stillshimpy]

What chapter are you on by the way? You've got past Ned meeting Cersei right? So you're on a Dany chapter.

 

Heh, I'm actually at the end of Knifey's chapter, if you ask me.  In other words Eddard's chapter where he asks Littlefinger for the City Guard and Littlefinger makes it extremely obvious that he's going to betray Ned by playing with that Shit Starting Knife.  Bastard Blade was behind it all, I'm telling you. 

 

Again, I'm chiefly impressed that Mark Addy was able to add so much to Robert that he felt more like a person Ned could have loved as a brother.  Although, Jebus, again with Lyanna Stark's "Promise me, Ned...." hammering.  Again.  Some more.   The deathbed scene played out very faithfully, but again, I just feel that Addy managed to imbue it all with a sense of affection and fraternal love that isn't present on the page.  

 

Whereas the book is really making it clear that something is way up with Lyanna's death , it isn't making it too terribly clear that it relates to Jon.  It pretty obviously does, since whereas Ned thinks of Lyanna's death in nearly every POV chapter and never spares the alleged mother of Jon a thought, it's pretty clear that Jon is Lyanna's son.  

 

But I'm a tiny bit irked by the changes to Renly from the book to the show.  So the show just decided to add in the whole "Renly gets the vapors over blood" detail?  Yeah, shame on you, HBO.  For freaking real there.  They apparently felt they needed to add in fluttery details that come with their own bowling cliches.  I do like book Renly and am glad that his initial move was not "I'm going to plan to overthrow my brother, the King...." but rather, "We totally need to snatch all of Cersei's kids tonight, or this place is freaking doomed."  

 

And so much of what Ned does in the book at this stage, how aware he is of Petyr's less-than-honorable nature almost makes it seem like he's passively suicidal or something equally peculiar.   Also, I guess it never freaking occurred to Ned to stall like a motherfucker until his kids were safely on their way to Winterfell, but that's the least of my "Oh lord, that just plays out idiotically...." complaints.   Littlefinger all but declares "I hope your back doesn't dull my knife, dude, sure I'll help....mwhahahahahaa.....for that love that I bore for your wife, you know, the one that your brother used to humiliate and scar me?  So no reason for me to be eternally bitter that she ended up married to you, despite his death....and that's even if I don't just hate her guts for slighting me forever after that, which I totally and rather obviously do..."  

 

Sigh.  Poor dead Ned, dreaming of dead Starks statues staring at him.  What a man singularly lacking in imagination, "Hey, I wonder if that was an Omen or anything?  Sadly, Gregory Peck  isn't part of this fictional world....although we've practically got Cersei yelling "I love you, Damian!" to the left to drive home the 'sinister shit is going down' vibe....oh and look, Littlefinger is playing with knives in a very obvious manner...."  

 

Okay, so I'm sure it was a little shocking that the seeming protagonist shuffles off his mortal coil here in a few chapters, but it can't be that shocking...because he practically donned a coat made of Lemmings and went to the sea wall for a stroll. 

 

Viserys exited and I agree, the actor who played him managed to make him sympathetic in a way that Book Viserys just isn't.   

 

Weird aside: I listened to a podcast this month for Gilmore Guys (oh go ahead and judge, I don't mind....I'll wait....) that interviewed Jane Espenson about her writing career.   She talked about the various writer's rooms she was a part of throughout her career.  Ron Moore's was (unsurprisingly for anyone who watch BSG) the one that most encouraged the individual writer's voice.  Joss Whedon's was the quietest (that one surprised me, apparently it was very internal there) and on and on....to the GoT episode that she wrote, the one where Dany eats the horse heart.  

 

There wasn't a GoT's writer's room when she wrote that script, as they were just writing the scripts for the first season and she said GoT was the easiest assignment, because it was all right there on the page.  Sure enough, pretty freaking faithfully adapted, but it does sort of prove that it was something Lloyd managed to add to Viserys vs. some writer's room decision about him.  She was given a script assignment and didn't even meet with a writer's room.  Just..."Here.  Here's the book.  This is the part you are supposed to write."  

 

That's only becoming a really interesting detail to me as I am reading the book and seeing some of the things that were changed.  Because things, seemingly small things, were changed and added.   I can also see where budget dictated a lot more than I would have thought it did at first.  

 

ETA:  

 

Shimpy, I'm wondering, now that you've further down the book-road, are there characters you totally envision as their show counterparts (and if yes, which ones ?)

 

You know what's weird?  Robert.  I don't see Mark Addy.  I don't like Book Robert as much as I liked Show Robert and so I think I've sort of separated the two so that my love of Mark Addy's performance doesn't suffer.  Similarly, I do not see Lena Headey as Cersei in my head.  I think I come closer to seeing a very young Michelle Pfeiffer .   

I do not see Sean Bean in my head AT ALL for Ned.   I have already been told Bean's Ned was well received, but I'm sorry, I'm not feeling it.   Same deal with Catelyn.  

 

Littlefinger just is Aidan Gillen.  Same thing with Varys.  Arya absolutely.  Sansa, absolutely.  Kit Harrington, absolutely.  Sam isn't quite right, but I just sort of grafted his actor's image onto Book Sam and insisted that it stay there.  

 

I can't even conjure an image of Barristan from the book, so his actor kind of wins by default at this point.   Renly's actor actually is who I'd picture, just taller and I think I have just kind of invented a tougher, bigger, more scarred version of Renly's actor to see in my head for Book Robert.  

 

I really apologize on the Sean Bean thing, because if it hasn't been apparent all these years, I freaking love Sean Bean.  I just don't agree with his choices as Ned.   I completely understand why Ned needed to be played by a big name, but I have to agree with an earlier poster:  the guy who played Benjen is a better Mind's Eye Match for me ....and although it was a much smaller role, it think his choices better matched what's on the page.  Bean's Ned is too grim and sour throughout.  His best Ned moment, I think, was when Jaime killed Jory and the look that crossed his face as he took out his sword to fight him.  That and when he talked to Jaime in the Throne room.  Two scenes that don't even exist in the book.   I'm going to admit, I am primarily confused by Bean's jaw-grinding portrayal of Ned.  He's only got a moment or two where I feel he matches Page Ned ....and the other one is when he tells Jon he'll tell him of his mother, when he returns (kiss.of.death in the show) ....

I'm really sort of troubled by it, obviously.  I loved Sean Bean's Ned -- despite seeming sort of dim -- and I love Book Ned....but man alive, I am not able to match them up often.  The picnic scene with Robert was another where Bean's Ned was a good match, but overall  Bean's Ned is too humorless, I think.  But he has great moments.  As I said, I'm torn here.  

 

Peter Dinklage is who I see when I picture Tyrion.  The actor who plays Loras is also a good "mind's eye" match.  

 

Oh...and Emilia Clarke, absolutely, despite the fact that they clearly had a lot of problems figuring out how to bring the Targ look to life....so she's another actor who just is the character I see in my mind.  

Edited July 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

Okay, so I'm sure it was a little shocking that the seeming protagonist shuffles off his mortal coil here in a few chapters, but it can't be that shocking...because he practically donned a coat made of Lemmings and went to the sea wall for a stroll.   

 

Maybe that was what Martin was going for? "How obvious can I make it that this guy is about to die, but the audience still won't catch on because I've told them he's the main character? Mwuhahhaha!"

[ambi76]

You know what's weird?  Robert.  I don't see Mark Addy.  I don't like Book Robert as much as I liked Show Robert and so I think I've sort of separated the two so that my love of Mark Addy's performance doesn't suffer.

 

When it comes to the Baratheon bros I'm usually harping on Stannis (not my type of person to put it mildly) but IMHO Robert Baratheon is actually one of the vilest characters in the whole series (if you leave out the total nutcases). He just totally gets away with it because he was Ned's BFF. Laughing his ass of at Targaryen baby/toddler brains presented to him? Really? Well, that even made Ned reconsider the BFF status for like two month or so, but still. Really Ned?

 

Why show!Renly needed to be squeemish about blood, who knows? Let's hope it wasn't the gay thing so much as that they wanted to make Loras look tougher vs him or something. But yeah, most people find this ridiculous and I try to ignore it.

 

 Similarly, I do not see Lena Headey as Cersei in my head.  I think I come closer to seeing a very young Michelle Pfeiffer.

 

There were and still are great complains about Lena Headey not looking anything like Cersei despite her stellar performance.

 

I do not see Sean Bean in my head AT ALL for Ned.  I have already been told Bean's Ned was well received, but I'm sorry, I'm not feeling it.

 

Well, Bean definitely looks nothing like Eddard, I'm afraid. And show!Ned will forever be the butt of many Boromir in Westeros jokes.

 

  Same deal with Catelyn.

 

And here there is the recasting issue and Fairley is really pushing it agewise with six year old Rickon. I like her very much though apart from the age issue.

Edited July 4, 2015 by ambi76

[Delta1212]

I also think the show played up the shock factor of Ned's death moreso than the book even did. I mean, yeah, Ned had the most chapters in the book, but it's not like he was played by a well-known actor and featured on official posters of the book.

Plus some more minor thoughts that I'll save for when we get there.

I also think book Renly comes across as being a bit smarter and just generally suited to playing "the game" than show Renly did. In both cases, I think Renly's biggest problem is that he doesn't take it seriously enough. Like he's aware of the possible consequences intellectually but he hasn't really internalized the idea that he might actually suffer those consequences on an emotional level.

Renly seems to be more aware than Ned of the games people play, and book Renly seems more like an active participant, but in either case I think he honestly hasn't really considered the idea that he might lose.

[ambi76]

Also interesting that shimpy is quite all right with Gethin Anthony as Renly even to the point of cloning him for book!Robert, because that is definitely one of the show casts that is almost universally considered a total failure. To small, to ugly, to blah (and now poor Geth has to fight with being considered to hot for playing Charles Manson, seems he can't win). My complain would be mostly the "blah" though. He is way to nondescript on the show and looks too much like Littlefinger at first.

 

While Finn (without the season one wig at least) is fitting at least a famous Loras artpiece, I still have my problems with the blue eyes and the blondish hair. But as a book Loras nutso I'm allowed that (and I love Finn).

 

 

A lovely piece, except Loras is actually supposed to have dark brown hair (could maybe be hand-waved by the lightning) and should be looking six-teen not thirty-six at the Hand's Tourney (probably Quantum Leaped back into his teenage body, hence the already clinically depressed expression).

Edited July 4, 2015 by ambi76

[Holmbo]

There is also the fact that in general an inner monologue in a novel will tend to dwell more on a character's physical details than a person actually would in their mind. I'm sure Dany isn't really thinking about her silver hair and purple eyes either. Which isn't to say some times the books get a bit male gazy, and the double standard in regards to men not thinking about their balls is a good point. You never see stuff written about that. But at least looking at it that way - as not being an exact representation of a person's thought process - it's "just" male gazy, rather than Martin believing that women actually think like that. Which I think would be more absurd.

This is my thought as well. I recall one Tyrion chapter in the second book said something like: "The dwarf watched him with mismatched eyes". Which I don't think is something Tyrion would be thinking at that time.

So the Dany description doesn't really bother me except that it's part of the whole pile of boob descriptions. The weirdest one is IMO when Cat meets Lysa and recalls how perky her boobs were at their double wedding.

[Protar]

This is my thought as well. I recall one Tyrion chapter in the second book said something like: "The dwarf watched him with mismatched eyes". Which I don't think is something Tyrion would be thinking at that time.

So the Dany description doesn't really bother me except that it's part of the whole pile of boob descriptions. The weirdest one is IMO when Cat meets Lysa and recalls how perky her boobs were at their double wedding.

 

Well that instance is I think actually part of Cat's character. She's a character with quite a bit of internalised misogyny and there are a few occasions where she very notably judges other women based on their appearances (and the fertility implied by their appearance). 

 

But yes, Martin - despite his otherwise very good portrayal of female characters imo - does like describing boobs. Tits are mentioned on the very first page and he hasn't backed down since :P

[stillshimpy]

because that is definitely one of the show casts that is almost universally considered a total failure. To small, to ugly, to blah (and now poor Geth has to fight with being considered to hot for playing Charles Manson, seems he can't win).

 

Well, the universe minus one it is then.  I don't think he's unattractive and as for his size, it's actually difficult to find many actors over six feet tall  *insert lots of stuff about framing here that is mostly a concern from the past*  So the height was always likely to be an issue.  

 

As for being too ugly, yeah, not seeing that.  Too blah?  I don't know, I guess I actually can see that one, but I don't think that's the fault of the actor.  They give him almost nothing to do.  Honestly, back on TWoP I was so confused by people seemingly focusing on him at all.  He was nearly a non-entity.  Being introduced to Book Renly made some of season two Renly at least make sense, but his characterization on the series is what is at issue for me.  They really just swanned it up to try and convey that Renly was gay and when it wasn't outright offensive --seriously, they made him afraid of blood, which is among the weirder additions I've ever seen and seems to have no relationship, whatsoever, to the character on the page, it's just baffling -- it was over-the-top unless Book Renly also nearly passes out at the sight of breasts.  

 

So I can understand why the characterization was considered a failure, but good luck to any actor trying to do much with what they put in the script.  "Okay, so you have to state that you're afraid of blood....while planning a potential coup, to make you seem incredibly ill-suited to it, while being sexually manipulated by your lover, who is shaving you"  <---- that's his biggest scene is season one.  

 

His other biggest scene in the entire series?  "Breasts! EEK!"  (in essence) and then...the poor man gets killed off by Smoky Baratheon.  

 

I don't personally think any of that can be blamed on the actor.   Although, it's funny, because I can't say I'm fond of the actor, he barely had anything to do.  I'm just saying that when I met him on the page the only thing I didn't take issue with was how the actor looked "Oh, okay.  Well if he was a good eight or ten inches taller and just a bigger dude altogether....sure he looks the part...."  

 

But in fairness, I was picturing all of the various actors when reading the character descriptions so I started out with "I'm picturing the actor" and for Renly, all it really required was "make him bigger".  

[Mya Stone]

This sounds silly but I always pictured a blue eyed (non cartoon version) Gaston for Renly/young Robert. With softer features - and laughing eyes.

[Brn2bwild]

But yes, Martin - despite his otherwise very good portrayal of female characters imo - does like describing boobs. Tits are mentioned on the very first page and he hasn't backed down since :P

 

I also love his repeated references to "seeing my maiden's blood on his cock."  Like any woman would describe her first sexual encounter that way.

[magdalene]

My vision of the characters is probably more influenced by some of the art for the books, like Michael Komarcks. Some of the actors come closer for me in spirit than others in the cast - the show Brienne, I am very partial to her. The one who is the least like the books version is Lena Headey's Cersei for me.  She is Cersei in neither looks or personality. I call her Cecily on the show.

[Delta1212]

My vision of the characters is probably more influenced by some of the art for the books, like Michael Komarcks. Some of the actors come closer for me in spirit than others in the cast - the show Brienne, I am very partial to her. The one who is the least like the books version is Lena Headey's Cersei for me. She is Cersei in neither looks or personality. I call her Cecily on the show.

Do you find her beauty effulgent?

[magdalene]

Do you find her beauty effulgent?

Oh, Spike, is that you, you silly boy? Or it's William, isn't it.

Edited July 5, 2015 by magdalene

[Mya Stone]

Oh, Spike, is that you, you silly boy? Or it's William, isn't it.

What rhymes with effulgent? :p

[stillshimpy]

Indulgent.  :-) 

 

Well Mya told me about Jennifer Ehle as Catelyn and now I'm never going to get over having missed seeing that.  Not that I dislike Michelle Fairley, she was actually quite good.  On the incredibly rare occasions they gave her something vaguely funny to do, she was great.   The look on her face when she was trying to tell Robb that one of the Frey girls was ...and it is clear she's about to say "all right" and can't really carry through with saying it . Her expression in that scene was the single, funniest moment in the show for me.  

 

I mean, there's only been four or so funny moments total, so I guess that doesn't count for much, but still.  

 

I liked Michelle Fairley's Catelyn.   I don't think it was a completely thankless role, but it was a challenging one.  I'd have loved to see what Ehle would have done with it.  

[Holmbo]

Well that instance is I think actually part of Cat's character. She's a character with quite a bit of internalised misogyny and there are a few occasions where she very notably judges other women based on their appearances (and the fertility implied by their appearance).

But in that case bigger breast would be better right? ;)

[Protar]

But in that case bigger breast would be better right? ;)

 

Well it's not actually a direct correlation. Breast size is no indicator of fertility or milk production even though they tend to get bigger during pregnancy. But anyhoo...it's not like Cat was commenting on Lysa's size, just her perkiness. And at this point everyone wants Lysa to Stop breastfeeding please gods why!?

[Hecate7]

I think women do sometimes notice changes in another woman's figure. She's not remembering being hot for her sister, she's noticing how old her sister looks now. Once Lyssa was actually considered the prettier of the two by many people--younger, slimmer, perkier, and quite lovely. Now, she's a wreck, and I think that's meant to be sad and worrying. Cat's actually older, and has had five children. Lyssa's younger and has only one child, yet it's Lyssa who has lost her figure and her looks. I think we're meant to find that strange. Cat is looking at her sister and giving us a clue we have not yet thought to look for--what's wrong with Lyssa?

 

As to why nurse him, apart from being nuts: 1) Nobody can slip poison into his food without her knowing. 2) He will have to let her hold him every time he's hungry, so she gets to be close to him. 3) She's crazy and thinks this makes her a good mother.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Hecate7

[Haleth]

About Show Renly, I honestly don't remember seeing him in season 1 at all, but I'll take everyone's word for it.  The show writing for Renly and Loras is appalling.  As strange as it sounds, in this case Martin is much more subtle.  Every time Renly or Loras appear on camera I cringe.  

[Protar]

 As strange as it sounds, in this case Martin is much more subtle.

 

He isn't usually? I am confuse.

[ambi76]

Renly was actually in five episodes in season 1 and just three (more like two and a minute) in season 2, Haleth. He had much better hair and costume in season 2 though. ;-)

Edited July 5, 2015 by ambi76

[Haleth]

He isn't usually? I am confuse.

 

With regard to a character's sexuality?  No, he isn't generally very subtle.  LOL

[Protar]

With regard to a character's sexuality?  No, he isn't generally very subtle.  LOL

 

He isn't? I mean most of the characters are straight, but the majority are not overly focused on sex. And most of the gay/bi/lesbian characters are only implicitly so. So I'm not seeing how he's unsubtle. Examples? And I'm definitely not seeing how the show has him beat in that regard. In pretty much all aspects, sexuality and otherwise the show has about the subtlety of a drunk elephant. 

[Haleth]

I agree there is no subtlety in the show either, but my point was that in the particular case of Renly and especially Loras, Martin portrays them as more developed characters than walking stereotypes.

[Protar]

I agree there is no subtlety in the show either, but my point was that in the particular case of Renly and especially Loras, Martin portrays them as more developed characters than walking stereotypes.

 

I totally agree on that point. I'm just not seeing where Martin is otherwise unsubtle about character's sexuality. 

[Haleth]

Varys is probably the best example of what I mean.

[Protar]

Varys is probably the best example of what I mean.

 

I'm still not getting you. I mean in the show there's a few hints about Varys being potentially gay. Like not liking fish pie. But the books doesn't have any of that. Sex is completely irrelevant to Vary's character so....still confuse.

[Mya Stone]

In my opinion. Martin wrote sexuality fluidly, which would account for why people have such differing opinions. With the POV structure, it's hard to definitively think "Oho, I'm straight."

So instead you get completely subjective feelings in the moment. As well as rumors.

Anyway, I think it's time to move on from the debate.

Shimpy, where are you? I just finished book one myself. :)

[stillshimpy]

Shimpy, where are you? I just finished book one myself. :)

 

Well, let's see.  I'm in the middle of  a chapter that is the only time I've had to stop, put down the book entirely.  Walk away, make almond butter, go through my to-do list for today to see what I need to do (paint a metric fuckton of crown molding, mainly) and intersperse all of that with a bunch of "FUCK!" and "HOLY SHIT, NO!" 

 

If that gives you any clue.  

 

Oh god, yeah, I got it when the timelines didn't match up and the bells were ringing for Robert's death out of sync with the rest of the story in case anyone is wondering "I wonder when it will click for her...."  and it's weird, because I'd bet about a thousand bucks that is the thing people have been waiting for me to react to and I will tell you my honest first reaction: 

 

"God in heaven, I hope someone adequately prepared Sophie Turner for how much fans of the books would hate her character and that some might have trouble separating her from her character.  Merciful fucking Zeus, she was just a kid.  FUCK!" 

 

Yeah, I don't even have the heart to keep reading right now, but I have wandered around for a good hour, processing.  Of course, it makes the seemingly insane hatred of Sansa make more sense now.   Candidly, I'd always wondered what precisely was wrong with people who were that vicious to the character whose greatest sin was in clinging to her stupid fantasies for so gods damn long.   And yeah, I did actually let out an audible sound.  That thing where you suck your breath through teeth, like when you see someone get kicked in the slats and you have that involuntary empathy response for "SHIT, that had to hurt."  

 

I cannot honestly say what my reaction to Sansa would have been all these years if I'd known she went to the Queen and betrayed Ned, thereby getting her entire household's wroth of people slaughtered and apparently poor Jeyne Poole turned into whatever it is that Littlefinger is going to do with her (which made me almost physically ill to think of when he said he'd find a place for her).  

 

I've had years of seeing how much it was going to suck for Sansa, just for being a nitwit, fantasy believing, "can't accept the truth in front of my eyes" kid, so I think that likely colors my perception of what she did: going to Cersei and royally fucking everyone over because of her idiot dreams.  That was awful.  

 

I am going to say that having seen all that comes, and being pretty fucking sure she's dead at this point in the story anyway, I stand by the assertion: She's just a stupid kid.  We were all stupid kids at one point.  I never had the chance to do anything with consequences that dire, but then no one really ever does....and I already know where this is heading...and how the story-payment she'll receive for that foolishness-that-bred-treachery will play out.  So I feel sorry for her in ways I wouldn't have if I had read this and then seen all that was to come, but that was a crucial detail to leave out and a wise call on the part of the show.  

 

It's actually really a sickening detail.  Poor everyone.  Oh man.   Everything I have ever said about her still stands, but I needed to see where it was heading to have the perspective to say that right at this moment.  I can see why people would never be able to forgive her.  

 

Man, in the history of ever, no one could deserve the punishment she will take for that mistake...but she got her entire household slaughtered, she didn't actually get Ned killed.  Littlefinger was going to do that anyway, he just had a giant head's up as to which way to break to come out on the winning side though, so I could be wrong on that.  I still think he was always going to betray Ned and that Ned -- as a completely grown man -- is the person responsible for his own fate and ill-considered actions.  Giving Cersei the chance to flee and then not catching on to the 'she's not fleeing, dude, do the math....that means she's sure she isn't going to lose here and why would that be?"  is not a forgivable mistake.  Giving Cersei a head's up, knowing that she'd tried to kill Bran was not a forgivable mistake. 

 

But Sansa's mistake is.  It just has incredibly dire consequences for everyone.  Oh God.  That is insanely sickening, but she is still just a stupid kid who will pay and pay and pay and pay some damned more before she's dead.  

 

I'm going to go paint some molding for a while.  I really hope people haven't been too horrible to Sophie Turner.  

[Mya Stone]

I can honestly say that Sophie Turner has been on the receiving end of praise for her portrayal, and that I'm 99.9% sure the show runners left out that little detail in order to try and make Sansa more forgivable in the show.

I never understood the wrath that some people had for her, myself. She was ELEVEN. She was eleven, her life was being turned upside down for the second time in a year, and she was ELEVEN. Have I mentioned she was eleven? She made one poor choice with arguably the worst consequences ever (I could argue about Theon's choices vs Sansa's, and win, I think) and she has paid dearly for it.

I truly believe Ned was going to die regardless of his choice. Sansa just made it easier for Cersei.

Come back to me, Shimpy, and read the rest. You're so close to knocking out book one! And then we have one of my favorite chapters ever to start book two! ;)

[Skeeter22]

I wonder if it's actually worse having seen the show first. It makes the differences really hit you in the face.

Logistically, Sansa being at fault for her own capture has never made sense to me. Ned gave Cersei ample warning that this was coming down. Littlefinger knows this is happening as well. There is no way Varys and Littlefinger aren't keeping an eye on Ned's household. Are we to believe they were all going to sneak out undetected?

Martin has said he never intended for Sansa to take all the blame for this, and he wrote the episode from season one where they would have revealed Sansa's "betrayal". It's one of the differences in the show he's never complained about.

[Avaleigh]

Even in the first read I had sympathy for Sansa here. I'm with you, Mya. She's eleven years old. I have never been able to get behind the idea that Ned's downfall was mainly her fault. Ned had the opportunity to send his girls on ahead of him and he didn't even though he knew how dangerous the situation had become.

Shimpy, your 'I love you, Damian' comment made me LOL. One of my favorite Cersei related comments ever.

[stillshimpy]

Oh yeah, trust me, I immediately got why George Martin says he has regrets about the way he wrote Sansa.  

 

No kidding.  He clearly intends that as the mistake of a child who has only ever been surrounded by trustworthy people in her life and who normally does everything she's told to.  She can't recognize that Joffrey is a psycho because she doesn't even understand what one is and she is a snob.  It's not nice but it's obvious and a part of real life too, she is enough of a snob  to not really think of Micah as having equal worth.  

 

But she's an eleven-year-old child and yeah...even if she was 13 in the show and 11 in this world means at least 13 , I don't care, she's a kid.  She did something insanely stupid, but it was hot on the heels of the forty stupid things every adult around her did, starting with, but nowhere near limited to her father and mother.  

 

So my defense of Sansa would likely have always been the same, but yes, that was like being punched in the face in terms of an unfair thing to lay at the feet of a kid.  Good. Friggin'. God.  

 

I'll go back to reading later, Mya.  I am so glad the show left that out.  In fact, the show, for all it has a lot of clunkiness surrounding sexuality and god knows it is fond of making sex sort of sordid and usually unappealing as hell -- true story, in the show my husband and I both figured Robb and Talisa would die because they had normal, loving sex that wasn't purchased -- for all that, the show has made good choices in the changes to the characterization of a lot of the female characters. 

 

Show Cersei has actual motivations and the ability to love, even if she's bizarre and twisted in that love.  Catelyn did foolhardy things, but she didn't force her husband to go to the city he was so ill-suited to and take the position that was against his actual abilities, thereby helping him right into the grave.   Removing that detail from Sansa's story was crucial to audience reception, particularly given the age factor and the fact that on top of Sansa being 13 in the show in the first season, she still looked closer to sixteen...and people have a tendency to expect kid's characters to act their size, rather than their character age.  

 

So good call on the part of the show, but I admit to being pretty sorely disappointed in Martin for that one.  It wasn't necessary and it truly isn't fair ...and piled on top of other choices he makes with his female characters thus far in this book, yeah, I'll just bet he has some regrets and was okay with some of the changes.  

[benteen]

Yeah, I think GRRM had second thoughts about the Sansa scene.  I believe it was shot though as I remember an interview with Sophie Turner at the time where she talked about Sansa telling Cersei about Ned leaving.

[Protar]

 for all that, the show has made good choices in the changes to the characterization of a lot of the female characters. 

 

I don't want to come across as mean spirited but...Imma note this quote down for later :P

[Triskan]

(I could argue about Theon's choices vs Sansa's, and win, I think)

 

 

True. I for one, never felt any ill-resent or hatred towards neither Sansa nor Theon. Both are among the most fascinating characters of the story. Both made horribly wrong choices forced upon them by others, more manipulative people and where their age, education and conflicting loyalties brought them to an eternity of regrets.

 

Oh, and I had a... certain laugh at shimpy's reaction to a certain character...

(Jeyne Pool)

. =D

[ulkis]

Even in the first read I had sympathy for Sansa here. I'm with you, Mya. She's eleven years old. I have never been able to get behind the idea that Ned's downfall was mainly her fault. Ned had the opportunity to send his girls on ahead of him and he didn't even though he knew how dangerous the situation had become.

Shimpy, your 'I love you, Damian' comment made me LOL. One of my favorite Cersei related comments ever.

 

IA. I mean, Ned giving Cercei time/the chance to flee, that was the bigger mistake to me. Sansa is 11, she didn't have any hint it was going to lead to anything so disastrous. Ned, on the other hand, should have known.

[stillshimpy]

I don't want to come across as mean spirited but...Imma note this quote down for later :P

 

Heh.  Yeah, because there isn't enough written evidence on the internet of the times I've been wrong [/typed dryly].