Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[plurie]

I think Lena's performance makes it easy to overlook, but I think Cersei's kind of... dumb.

I mean, let's look at the assassination of Robert Baratheon. She got him extra drunk in a dangerous situation and he got himself killed. That's actually a brilliant plan... If you have unlimited time to work with and it doesn't matter whether the plot succeeds. But that's the plan she went with when she knew it was her last chance and if Robert came back from the hunt and talked to Ned both her and all her children were dead.

I think both book and show Cersei, from everything we've seen so far, is better at reacting to the problems in front of her than teasing apart the possibilities and what-ifs, which is really Tyrion's talent of probably everyone in this series.

Edit: Ok, dumb might be a little harsh, but I do think that Cersei can be very unimaginative both about potential problems and potential solutions to problems. That's a little different than being just dumb, which probably would have gotten her killed by now were that the case.

I don't think that Cersei is "dumb" per se. But she THINKS she's a tactical and strategic genius, and she's not. She's surrounded by people who are WAY better at the "Game of Thrones" than she is, but she can't or won't see that.

[stillshimpy]

I've been sitting here reading for a bit now and wanted to stop to mention this, in case I forget:  So two of the Freys actually do make it to Winterfell as wards?  My immediate thought was "Oh shit, those are the boys Theon will kill and pass off as Bran and Rickon, aren't they?"  Just when I thought it actually couldn't get any worse for what happens to Bran and Rickon -- father dead, feeling abandoned by their mother and older brother, Winterfell seized by someone they grew up with and then the kids Theon kills will turn out to be those boys, I'm betting. 

 

Poor freaking Rickon.   

 

I'm also starting to appreciate what wonderful work the actor who played Luwin did, which is both sad and kind of gratifying at the same time.  Bran's dreams of being a tree were also intriguing given those whole "Bran has a vision where he hears a freaky voice (that turned out to be King Root Dude)"...it wasn't ever going to occur to me via the show that it was the tree speaking to him.  

[Delta1212]

Yeah, the show's Maester Luwin is great. Definitely one of the many sort of side-character actors who doesn't get enough praise.

[stillshimpy]

Oh and there's one thing I always forget to comment on from the first book:  The sense of scale the first book gives to The Wall is a hugely important thing and it is a shame they sort of lost that.  The description of the tunnel as being this sort of vast thing was really important and would have gone a long way towards making much of the Wildling story make a bit more sense.   They always got how tall it was supposed to be across, but never how wide.  

 

It wasn't until I was reading the description of Jon heading out through the tunnels that I got a sense of "Whoa, okay, that thing is VAST".  

[plurie]

I've been sitting here reading for a bit now and wanted to stop to mention this, in case I forget:  So two of the Freys actually do make it to Winterfell as wards?  My immediate thought was "Oh shit, those are the boys Theon will kill and pass off as Bran and Rickon, aren't they?"  Just when I thought it actually couldn't get any worse for what happens to Bran and Rickon -- father dead, feeling abandoned by their mother and older brother, Winterfell seized by someone they grew up with and then the kids Theon kills will turn out to be those boys, I'm betting. 

Not really. The Walder Freys are too old to be passed off and Bran and Rickon. Even if they're burned beyond recognition, they corpses would be too big. I'd forgotten until my re-read, that Ramsey was behind Theon's killing of the two boys that were passed off as Bran and Rickon (who may be Theon's bastards).

[Protar]

Winterfell's story is one of the stories I'm really looking forward to you reacting to. As much of a douche Theon is, he's one of Martin's best written characters and the show at least manages to get Theon's arc across. But at the same time there are surprises in store. And I love the magical aspect of the series, so even if Bran's chapters can be a little slow, I love the introduction to Warging and Greenseeing. 

[nksarmi]

plurie - in regards to your spoiler tag comment - I totally forgot that as well.  Is that in book 2?  If so I can wait till stillshimpy gets there and comments - otherwise, I might need to go to the library and read along on this one - I have clearly forgotten way too much.

[Haleth]

Plus as you read I hope you appreciate even more what an outstanding job Alfie Allen has done to make the character real. It's a shame his name hasn't come up in Emmy discussions.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Haleth

[Delta1212]

plurie - in regards to your spoiler tag comment - I totally forgot that as well. Is that in book 2? If so I can wait till stillshimpy gets there and comments - otherwise, I might need to go to the library and read along on this one - I have clearly forgotten way too much.

That's all book 2 stuff.

[Dev F]

And I love the magical aspect of the series, so even if Bran's chapters can be a little slow, I love the introduction to Warging and Greenseeing. 

 

I love the Bran chapters in Clash of Kings, and I don't find them slow at all. Lord of the Crossing is another thing that never fails to crack me up: "In practice, the game seemed to come down to mostly shoving, hitting, and falling into the water, along with a lot of loud arguments about whether or not someone had said 'Mayhaps.'"

 

The only thing that bugs me is that book!Bran's thinking seems a little too ordered and sophisticated for a seven-year-old. I tend to picture ten-year-old Bran from the show when I'm reading, which makes more sense.

[benteen]

Poor Rickon was an afterthought.  Pretty much Robb was the only one who remembered him.

[Autarch]

 

I wonder why Cersei would tell Tryion that?  Is it because she didn't want to tell him, "Ned Stark had me stone-cold busted, but he tried to spare the lives of my children...."  not to mention Littlefinger and his backstabbing ways.   I know I've already been told that Martin never meant for Sansa to take the blame, but he made more than one writing mistake.  

Essentially, it all came down to the timing. You make a good point about the different factors in play though. Here's what Martin has to say on that matter:

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Regarding_Sansa

 

There's also the fact that having Sansa was crucial for providing the leverage she needed to persuade Ned to confess, which may not have immediately mattered but was still a factor in securing Joff's legitimacy to the throne.

[Triskan]

Shimpy, I'm wondering, which characters do you think will become PoV characters as the story goes on ? :)

[Protar]

That was always one of the best parts of reading a new book in the series on my first read - seeing who the new POVs were.

[nksarmi]

Shimpy, where are you in book 2?  I'm looking forward to your take on one or two things, but I don't know when they take place lol.

[stillshimpy]

I'm wondering, which characters do you think will become PoV characters as the story goes on ? :)

 

I hope Robb's POV joins the story soon. Brienne, of course!  Margaery, Olenna.  Jaime and Tywin Lannister I'm hoping for solely because Jaime is a character I just do not get and I've become convinced thus far that I have the actor for company on that one.  The ones I'm dreading are all things Bolton or Ramsey.   Not even in a POV capacity.   

 

I'm hoping the Iron Islands look less like a Monty Python skit that took itself too seriously.  

 

 

 

where are you in book 2?  I'm looking forward to your take on one or two things, but I don't know when they take place lol.

 

I've just finished (edit because I was wrong) Jon's chapter and am well into the chapter where Robb's doom begins when Karstark leaves as Robb offers a hostage exchange for peace.   I usually have a bit more time to read during the week (which I know is the opposite of most people), but my weekends tend to be a bit chore and commitment heavy.  Plus, my kitchen remodel has begun, so on the upside of that, I'll soon have a kitchen again after two months of not having a full kitchen.  On the downside, you know what isn't conducive to reading?  Absolutely anything you can name about a ktichen remodel :-)  

 

Which actually brings me to a question about the book.  I've heard so many jokes about how people read this story for the food.   Uh...? So far there has been a description or two of lemon cakes and a lot more description of roasted meat.  I don't personally eat meat, but I'm not fluttery about it or anything, but thus far, long descriptions of food have not made the scene. 

 

Similarly, what a pity that the show can't really convey the scale due to budget.  I get it, it's a real concern, it dictates a lot about how a story can be told.  Still, I've had to laugh by how fasciated I've been by everything at The Wall when it comes to hearing about it.  Sam in the vast library was a great scene.  So I started wondering if it was going to end up being something I was just riveted by.  

 

Then I remembered, "oh, that's right, they are headed towards Craster's Camp of Unending Incest.  So, basically, no."  

Edited July 19, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

There is quite a lot of food description in the books. One of the notable ones I remember so far is at The Hand's tourney. There's a huge feast. Martin's food descriptions never fail to make me hungry (well...there's a few "delicacies" in slaver's bay which I'm not too keen on). In fact there's a whole website dedicated to the recipes of the series, called "The Inn at the Cross Roads" and a recipe book called "A Feast of Ice and Fire" which I have lying around somewhere. I don't think there are any major spoilers of the "this is the pie Tyrion eats before getting killed by a dragon" variety, but there are book quotes. 

Edited July 19, 2015 by Protar

[ambi76]

I hope Robb's POV joins the story soon. Brienne, of course!  Margaery, Olenna.  Jaime and Tywin Lannister I'm hoping for...

Not really saying one way or the other but if you want to play a guessing game look behind the spoiler

only two of those six characters you mention here will ever have POVs

.

Edited July 19, 2015 by ambi76

[Protar]

And FYI Shimpy that spoiler there is just telling you how many of those characters get POVs. But not which ones you got right. :)

[nksarmi]

Jon's stuff and the Wall was always fascinating to me.  And that says something because he really is as separated from the story as Dany is in many ways, but I just find his stuff more interesting (perhaps its because that's where the real threat is).  There are some things about Jon that I believe (like 99% sure) were dropped from the series that are in this book, so I want updates as you pass his chapters so I can figure out when to ask you about it! :)

[plurie]

There is quite a lot of food description in the books. One of the notable ones I remember so far is at The Hand's tourney. There's a huge feast. Martin's food descriptions never fail to make me hungry (well...there's a few "delicacies" in slaver's bay which I'm not too keen on). In fact there's a whole website dedicated to the recipes of the series, called "The Inn at the Cross Roads" and a recipe book called "A Feast of Ice and Fire" which I have lying around somewhere. I don't think there are any major spoilers of the "this is the pie Tyrion eats before getting killed by a dragon" variety, but there are book quotes.

There are actually TWO different cookbooks. The official one is A FEAST OF ICE AND FIRE. There's also THE UNOFFICAL GAME OF THRONES COOKBOOK: FROM DIREWOLF ALE TO AUROCH STEW.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, well I'm through Arya's chapter (where the Gold Cloaks come to get Gendry and that the first outward confirmation of 'that's Gendry' ) Catelyn's and Tyrion's chapters and into Arya's next chapter, after Yoren sent the Gold Cloaks packing, but knew they would be back. 

 

There are a couple of things:  So according to Varys, Cersei ordered the slaughter of babes, but it isn't being conveyed on such a "holy crap, that's a lot of infanticide" scale.  The show always sort of danced around absolute confirmation on any of that.  

 

By the way, I'd love  a Varys POV, but I doubt very much the story does that, because he's a character designed to keep us guessing, at least at this stage.  

 

I wish the show hadn't taken such pains to paint Edmure as a fool, and sort of a spineless one.  In the book he seems to have fairly solid judgment and doesn't appear to lack for bravery and god knows the story is incredibly hard on all things Catelyn and Tully, so it isn't as if the narrative needed more oomph in that area.  I feel like the order must have been switched around in some respect though because I thought Talisa was already around by the time Lord Karstark was doing stuff like storming out on Rob's offers of peace.   Catelyn is just off to meet up with Renly so I may just have that wrong.  I never really rewatched season two, because it was just really depressing and battle scenes have never done a lot for me.   

 

So I may have just jumbled the order in my head, but I feel like Talisa was already in the picture in the show.  I could be wrong though.  

 

On the subject of what Alfie Allen has added to Theon, I'm currently really mixed.  He does such a great job and managed to make me feel sympathy for Theon, almost without my permission, after frakking Ramsay (soon may he die) got a hold of him.   However, he made different character choices than I think the page conveys.   Part of what makes Theon's betrayal feel like a gut punch on the show is that Alfie played Theon as seemingly sincere in his promises to Robb and emotionally conflicted.  

 

The page has him as this guy who it was clear, even to Catelyn, that trusting him was a mistake.  So I don't really have a firm opinion yet on what the actor did with the role other than he chose a different direction.   Allen always seemed to play Theon as if , primarily, he wasn't particularly bright and was easily manipulated.   So my personal jury is out on how I feel about his initial interpretation of Theon, but I already know he does amazing work with what is to come. 

 

So here's something I'd really appreciate a "yay" or "nay" on:  Is it strictly necessary for me to read the freaking wedding scene?  I just have no interest, whatsoever in a detailed description of that horror-show.  If I can possibly get away with not reading it, that's what I'd prefer.  Is there anything that proves to be key, or when I get to the "Oh look, there they are, rolling up to The Twins for the joyous occasion of Edmure being married off to Frey's daughter.  Whee.  Bet this will be freaking festive" and just skipping that shit.  

 

Also, almost as soon as I'd commented on the food thing, very detailed descriptions of food presented themselves in Tyrion's meeting with Janos Slynt.   Something about Slynt just never made much of an impression on me in the series, other than "that dude truly, completely and absolutely blows chunks, what a waste of air" and I confess, I never really had him register in my mind until this season when Jon went ahead and executed him at The Wall.  

 

He was just one of those characters who just sort of slithered around in the background, being as gross as all things Kings Landing tend to be.  I think he's a good example of a character who was better served by the page in terms of making me understand how and why he was so worthy of contempt.  It also gave me a sense of why Varys has always talked about Tyrion being good at governance.  The series never really brought that across.  When Tyrion talked about being good at being The Hand, I was willing to accept it as true, but didn't really see the evidence myself. 

 

That was something else that benefited from expansion on the page.  I'm really hoping that his eventual departure will also make him more interesting.  The last couple of seasons have just made Tyrion into a self-pitying drunk vs someone I could see Varys championing so much as a person who could help save the Kingdoms.  

 

His was the only story I was looking forward to in the Sixth season, by the way.  Removed from all that "Wah.  Shae.  I love Shae!" stuff (that really just made him seem childish and again, selfish because he couldn't just give her a nice bag of jewels and send her off after he was married to Sansa).  Or when he spent the vast majority of season five getting plastered because he just felt so sorry for himself, again, some more.  Or the worst part:  When he got his ass captured because he was a fretful child of a man who just HAD to go visit a brothel and practically take out an ad as to who he was. All of this may play out differently in the books, and I'll find out eventually, but it's a big part of the reason I'm just not as fond of Tyrion as the story seems to think I should be.  

 

So it's at least a little remarkable that a character who has never hurt for screen-time ha already benefited so much from some inner-process-detailing. 

Edited July 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ambi76]

So here's something I'd really appreciate a "yay" or "nay" on:  Is it strictly necessary for me to read the freaking wedding scene?  I just have no interest, whatsoever in a detailed description of that horror-show.  If I can possibly get away with not reading it, that's what I'd prefer.  Is there anything that proves to be key, or when I get to the "Oh look, there they are, rolling up to The Twins for the joyous occasion of Edmure being married off to Frey's daughter.  Whee.  Bet this will be freaking festive" and just skipping that shit.

 

That would be a nay from me but I'm a meany-poo and skipping the Red Wedding is like cheating. It's such a cool chapter IMHO (but it's only in ASOS, shimpy, so you can mull on it for a while longer) also it obviously read very different to me as a "Stark-who cares?" person.

 

I'm really hoping that his eventual departure will also make him more interesting.  The last couple of seasons have just made Tyrion into a self-pitying drunk vs someone I could see Varys championing so much as a person who could help save the Kingdoms.

 

I'm sorry but here I have to say

ouuuuch

for my fellow sullied and that it's rather interesting to me that you don't like show!Tyrion that much.

Edited July 20, 2015 by ambi76

[Haleth]

Oh, baby, there is so much we can say but won't.  

 

As for the wedding, it's my opinion you can skip those pages if you wish, but seeing it on screen is worse than the written word.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Haleth

[Protar]

I would really read the Red Wedding if I were you. The way the show handled the Red Wedding was...divisive. In terms of its presentation rather than plot relevance. And it's such a big moment in the books I feel like you've got to see how the books do it versus the show. If you really can't stomach it then the show gives you the gist of it I suppose. But as a huge fan of the books I can't advise skipping it. :P

 

EDIT: Also the show really plays up the gruesome, shock horror aspect of the Red Wedding as opposed to the personal loss. If you want to know some ahem...aesthetic changes (ergo not plot spoilers but spoilers regarding the details of how the slaughter goes down) look behind the spoiler tag:

Greywind's head on Robb's body is not on-page. Greywind dies off-page. No pregnant bellies being stabbed repeatedly.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Protar

[Avaleigh]

I think you should read it. (There's actually a fairly prominent asoiaf fan who supposedly hasn't read the RW because she thinks she won't be able to deal or something.) It'll be interesting for you to compare and contrast not to mention getting the thoughts from the POV. 

 

I think it's one of the best chapters. I thought the show version of it was okay TBH. 

 

ETA: I also preferred that there's more of a set up of everything in the books than on the show. 

Edited July 20, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Delta1212]

I'd read the Red Wedding bit because it's really well done on the page.

That said, you're in good company. GRRM has said that it's the last thing he wrote for the book. He skipped over it and kept going because he couldn't bear to write it until he had to to finish the book. Like I said, though, it's really very well written.

[Mya Stone]

Shimpy, I know how much the visceral aspect of the RW affected you. I still think it's a chapter worthy of reading. I'll spoiler tag this - it's who's POV it's done through:

It's written from Cat's perspective.

It's actually very much "Whoa, huh? What is HAPPNENING" when you first read it, but I think because you know it's coming, you pay closer attention to a lot of details. I found it harder to watch on the screen - I watched with my unspoiled sister and BiL and I had a huge pit in my stomach the entire episode. And of course, it happened at the very end, so I spent all 55 minutes a bundle of nerves and on edge.

I'll spoiler some other musings on the chapter, but really, again. I have no specific spoilers here.

I think personally, for me, having gotten to know Robb's men better on the page makes the actual deaths that occur more impactful. However, it's not nearly as visceral on the page. If that makes sense.

This was the hardest chapter for George to write. He has said he wrote everything he could for the book, and had to leave this for last. It is one of the best written chapters in his books, though.

[Protar]

In any case you've got like, a thousand pages before you have to decide whether to read it or not. I would read it, but you've got plenty of time to mull it over. 

[ambi76]

Many people in fandom will chose this this as their favorite chapter of the series and while it's not mine (my favorite chapter of the series is the Purple Wedding) I can definitely see why.

[Avaleigh]

It's always nice to see that there are others who enjoyed the Purple Wedding as much as I did. Somehow it shocked me more. Easily one of my favorite chapters in the entire series. 

 

When it comes to weddings in the series overall I find it fascinating how important and significant they are. Contemplating the potential, whether the potential is positive or disastrous, of various unions is one of the things that is fun to me about the series. 

[Mya Stone]

My favorite chapter is actually

The Ghost of Winterfell.

[Avaleigh]

I don't know if I have a favorite chapter overall but my favorite chapter in Clash is when

Catelyn and Jaime talk in Jaime's cell.

[Protar]

I don't know if I have a favorite chapter overall but my favorite chapter in Clash is when

Catelyn and Jaime talk in Jaime's cell.

 

One of my favourite scenes in the entire series. The Battle at the Blackwater is also something really special.

[nksarmi]

Hmm somehow I edited out a post by mistake.  Oh well, I would read the Red Wedding just for the minor differences.  If you don't read it, the fall out might led you to going back and reading it anyway.

Edited July 20, 2015 by nksarmi

[nksarmi]

Not sure how I double posted.....

Edited July 20, 2015 by nksarmi

[Haleth]

I was reading  Clash last night (I'm a bit ahead of Shimpy) and saw an error.  (I'm not spoiler tagging it since it's not a spoiler in any way.)  Tyrion is thinking about when the Mountain killed Elia Martell and her son.  Several times GRRM only mentions Elia and her son, nothing is said about a daughter being killed too.  I wonder if GRRM originally wrote only one child for Elia and Rhaegar, but later changed it to two, and no one went back and revised the wording in this chapter in Clash.

[Mya Stone]

I was reading Clash last night (I'm a bit ahead of Shimpy) and saw an error. (I'm not spoiler tagging it since it's not a spoiler in any way.) Tyrion is thinking about when the Mountain killed Elia Martell and her son. Several times GRRM only mentions Elia and her son, nothing is said about a daughter being killed too. I wonder if GRRM originally wrote only one child for Elia and Rhaegar, but later changed it to two, and no one went back and revised the wording in this chapter in Clash.

I always thought it was determined that (I'll spoiler tag this because I think it's confirmed later on)

Amory Lorch was responsible for Rhaenys's death, so it makes sense that Tyrion doesn't think of the Mountain in this case.

[Haleth]

That's possible, but the way it reads is very strange, as if the other child didn't exist.

[nksarmi]

So I got to wondering when shimpy would get to a couple of things and I realized it will take until the start of the third book to come across one of the things I'm most interested to hearing her thoughts on.  Plus, from what I can tell from the summaries...... (this is a question but I am tagging it anyway) -

is it book three that Jon learns about warging?

[polyhymnia]

You still have plenty of time to decide, but I wouldn't suggest skipping the Red Wedding.  I think it was well-written.  There are a lot of other generally more graphic passages between now and then, mostly just giving a window into the misery of the small folk, that I'd rather unread (if that makes sense without getting into any spoilers).

[Protar]

So I got to wondering when shimpy would get to a couple of things and I realized it will take until the start of the third book to come across one of the things I'm most interested to hearing her thoughts on.  Plus, from what I can tell from the summaries...... (this is a question but I am tagging it anyway) -

is it book three that Jon learns about warging?

 

Near the end of book two actually? 

[Lady S.]

I was reading  Clash last night (I'm a bit ahead of Shimpy) and saw an error.  (I'm not spoiler tagging it since it's not a spoiler in any way.)  Tyrion is thinking about when the Mountain killed Elia Martell and her son.  Several times GRRM only mentions Elia and her son, nothing is said about a daughter being killed too.  I wonder if GRRM originally wrote only one child for Elia and Rhaegar, but later changed it to two, and no one went back and revised the wording in this chapter in Clash.

Rhaenys is mentioned in Game, when Varys convinces Ned to confess to protect Sansa, reminding him that the Lannisters murdered a much younger girl in the Sack.

Essentially, it all came down to the timing. You make a good point about the different factors in play though. Here's what Martin has to say on that matter:

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Regarding_Sansa

 

There's also the fact that having Sansa was crucial for providing the leverage she needed to persuade Ned to confess, which may not have immediately mattered but was still a factor in securing Joff's legitimacy to the throne.

Joff's legitimacy didn't need to be secured until Stannis sent his letter out, Ned's confession was just about getting Robb to back down, Cersei didn't really need his endorsement. If Sansa wasn't there as a bargaining chip Ned could've just been executed as a traitor without any false chances of mercy. Alternatively, if Cersei had just let Ned stew in the cell a little while longer, hoping he'd break on his own, then she would've gotten the news of Jaime's capture in time for the hostage exchange Robb was originally going for. Unfortunately, just Sansa for Jaime was not such an even trade, but that didn't really matter as much until after Ned was dead.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Lady S.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, well I guess I'll see how I feel about it as the moment looms.  Mya knows specifically the stuff that really bothered me -- that shit with Grey Wind, that I will NEVER forgive the story for pulling and stabbing Talisa to death in the baby for the love of god, gods, stray aliens and the occasional wizard -- but you guys have already said the books aren't quite as gratuitous with the violence. 

 

So all this gearing up for who will be the new POV chapters and....Davos.  

 

Oh.  Okay.  Whee.  ?  I guess we'll see how that goes :-D 

 

Arya's chapter as the head more towards the wall just about broke my heart though.  It was poignant and scary at the same time.  Was I supposed to be able to figure out whose men were slaughtered?  The Spotted Leopard banner?  I feel like I read that back at the tournament of the Hand, but couldn't place it.  

 

I also couldn't figure out whose ruined holdfast they passed where that poor woman was found.   

Edited July 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Shimpy, are you still avoiding spoilers in the media?  Just curious.

[stillshimpy]

Yes, I am still avoiding spoilers.  

[Autarch]

Joff's legitimacy didn't need to be secured until Stannis sent his letter out, Ned's confession was just about getting Robb to back down, Cersei didn't really need his endorsement. If Sansa wasn't there as a bargaining chip Ned could've just been executed as a traitor without any false chances of mercy.

Getting Robb to back down, and sending a message to any other lords who may have had thoughts of rising with/like Robb, was a crucial part of securing Joff's legitimacy. The truth of Ned's treason spreading beyond the walls of the Red keep could've been used by any lords thinking to side against the crown, which Ned's public statement was meant to prevent. 

 

Also, if Sansa wasn't there as a bargaining chip, Ned most likely would never have been executed.

It's hinted, and highly probably given his motives, that Littlefinger was the one to persuade Joff to shorten Ned, something he likely only did because Sansa was in his reach.

[Eegah]

So I just found out about this thread and devoured it all over the past 24 hours, and I'm so glad I get to come in right when things start to get really interesting (yeah, let's go with that word for now) in terms of adaptation choices.

 

Something I don't think has been pointed out yet: Shimpy, you may recall that Patchface's song actually did appear in the show, with Shireen singing it the very first time we see her. And musical theater star Kerry Ingram's rendition was infinitely better than Roy Dotrice's (he narrated the series' audiobooks, giving him the world record for playing the most characters in a single story, and also played Pyromancer Hallyne on the show with the same voice he'd given the character before). And something you may have figured out just from the show: during Season 2 there was a big debate among the show's crew about whether they should include Shireen, and they ended up putting off the decision until the following season and covered it with the vague line about Selyse not giving Stannis any living sons.

 

One thing on the show that's really started to irk me in the past couple seasons is that they'll completely change some characters' personality (sometimes for the better!), and then have them take a certain action they did in the books, despite that it now makes no sense with how they've been changed. I'll definitely be pointing those out.

[mrspidey]

Okay, well I guess I'll see how I feel about it as the moment looms.  Mya knows specifically the stuff that really bothered me -- that shit with Grey Wind, that I will NEVER forgive the story for pulling and stabbing Talisa to death in the baby for the love of god, gods, stray aliens and the occasional wizard -- 

Well in that case, you can read the chapter without worries. Yeah, the show does tend to be more vicious and graphic but i guess that's par for the course when you're adapting for a visual medium. Which then leads to some stuff that is original to the adaptation and other stuff that happens only off-page but ends up happening on-screen. 

[stillshimpy]

Eegah!!! I remember you :-) Hi! 

 

Okay, mrspidey, you've convinced me to go ahead and read it when the time comes.  Something tragic I can handle.  Plus, thus far, I'm slightly less fond of the doomed Starks than I thought I might be, which isn't to say "So go ahead and kick the grisly bucket!"  but rather I feel a little bit like I'm reading AU characters as it is.  

 

Soooo....okay.  Enough is different that I started jotting down a couple of words to help me remember "...and then there was this...and this....oh wow, and that too..." in the Davos and Theon chapters.   Which, by the way, if you think I had kind of "huh, well...sure, okay, I guess" reaction to seeing Davos's name at the start of a chapter, that was nothing compared to the 'Oh holy shit, Theon??  I have to sit through Theon's POV?  Gods and Monsters, why?"  but I pretty quickly changed my mind.  

 

Onward, so the most valuable thing about Davos's stuff, aside from the fact that I superimpose the actor onto Davos.  He's apparently going to be one of those casting decisions that will just own it, because I hear his voice in my head.  First off (jebus, where to start with this one? there's A LOT), I know I'm a broken record about "holy they-lost-all-sense-of-scale-onscreen" but....they really lost a sense of the scale of Stannis's forces.  Of what comprised Dragonstone, which has by far been the most fun to read about thus far.   I thought the whole "heated springs in Winterfell" thing was neat, but did understand why they struggled to bring that across.  

 

However, everything about Dragonstone is so much more vivid in the book.  The variety of the lords and who they are to Stannis.  That they sent him away in favor of Renly at first.   For whatever reason Lord Velayron really, really caught me off-guard because of the whole "the blood of old Valeryria" thing.   I don't know precisely why I thought that there was no one wandering around with ties to Valeryia other than Dany, but I did.  Sort of stupid of me considering whenever they name all the languages, High Valeryian is named as one.  So I take it it sort of translates in the Roman Empire in the stories?  At first I wondered if it was going to be Sparta or perhaps even Martin's take on Atlantis but the scenes in season five of Jorah and Tyrion rowing through made me question that.  

 

So Lord Velaryon fascinated me, because it surprised me that Robert Baratheon allowed anyone to live who was that closely connected to the Targaryens.  Davos's pride in his sons having improved circumstances and his fondness for his wife were pretty charming.  I notice that he has more than one son and neither appears to be a religious fanatic.  Melisandre's god is called R'hollor -- which is kind of a big damned deal because we argued for roughly goddamned ever about whether the Lord of Light and Jaqen's Red God were the same thing, although they fairly quickly took to referring to Jaqen's god as the Many Faced God.   Anyway, it was another instance of "it took one word to clear up twenty pages of going back and forth on a subject, one FREAKING WORD! Gah!!"
 

The only thing that was ever frustrating about being part of the Unsullied is that without fail, every year, someone would decide that Jon was a Targaryen and then we'd have to have the "Well, even if he is, he can be burned....remember the lantern?"  thing over and over and over.   So there were several subjects that had that happen and the Lord of Light was one of them.  Thus far I think the books have been much clearer about "Look, even if these things have any power, they aren't the same thing....everyone has their different thing they think is up to something...."  

 

So I was all het up about the "Wow, scope, scale....a mass of forces I never would have guessed at behind Stannis..." and how in the story part of the reason it was always a little difficult not to be bored senseless by Stannis because it seemed like he had an entire summer camp's barrack B, the explorers and the young adventurers at his disposal and how if they could just sack Kings Landing before everyone had to be back in their bunks, Stannis could be king.  Basically what I'm saying is he was impossible to take seriously because he seemed to have five nameless people supporting him, mostly out of fear and he could be tidied away with a mop by an industrious house-keeper.  

 

And then the name Edric Storm got dropped and I got a little sick to my stomach.   The whole "Melisandre and Gendry" story was always a little odd.  That she'd go and pluck him from Westeros and bring him back as a sacrificial goat and then Davos would set him free was a pretty tangled narrative.   She's not going to go get Gendry, is she?  And Edric Storm is going to die big time, I'm assuming. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong and I sort of hope I am.  Oh, by the way, I've been appreciating learning all the bastard last names.  Sand, Snow, Rivers, Storm (am I missing any?  I don't know yet) ...it's just a neat thing I've been appreciating in the story.   It's just  that I disliked Stannis when he was willing to kill Gendry, but at least I was able to tell myself, "Well, it isn't as if he even knows him and Stannis hadn't seen his brother in god knows how long..."  .   Instead, he was on the council and apparently one of Robert's illegitimate children grew up right under his nose.   So when the time comes, he'll be considering (and presumably following through) with killing someone he knew.  

 

Jeez.  Okay, well, I guess I'll cringe my way through that when I get to it.  Dragonstone is about a million times more interesting than I thought it was going to be, basically.  

 

But what the hell?  So, they must have changed Theon's basic characterization to fit with what is to come in the story and give it more oomph, right?  Changing Asha's name to Yara doesn't make any sense to me, unless they were afraid that all the A names would sound Targ-ish?  But it's actually a really big deal that Theon resented the Starks and had no actual affection for them.  That's a HUGE thing to change.  It's part of the reason I always thought Theon was a complete slimeball and a little spineless.  That he pledged brotherly love and loyalty, etc. etc.  and three words from an overtly cruel father, who told him he didn't matter, changed Theon into "Oh sure, to win over my gross Papa I'll start with the backstabbing and kid murder.  Sure.  Why not?  I'm like a dimwitted dog, in search of affection."  

 

Just saying, I can't say I like Theon any better at present, but I do like the fact that he's far less of a duplicitous backstabber with a weak will so far.  Although, I could live a million years and gratefully  not read another one of Theon's sex scenes (or pretty much any of Martin's sex scenes, they are not his strong suit, by a lot) , Theon is at least more interesting already.  He doesn't seem as intellectually vacant as the first few seasons of Theon onscreen did.  Plus, I loved that as Theon sort of mulled over his old wounds about being a captive, how he wasn't treated with affection, etc etc.  , Martin has him dressing in very fine clothing that was clearly provided for him by the Starks.   

That was actually one of the more subtle foreshadowings the story has done thus far.  Theon is thinking over one thing, as he dresses in things that contradict his own memories.  Neat trick there.   

 

That he has an Uncle Aeron, who is some grim priest startled me, and that helped me figure out why they changed Asha's name to Yara (they didn't want fans to confuse the Iron Islanders with Targs, right?)  ...but I much preferred Book Theon's approach to his boyhood home to Show Theon's where he tries to get it on with his own sister and she really doesn't shut him down anywhere near as much as would have been appropriate.  Plus, that scene with Yara in the show makes it so much more obvious that they are just out to screw with Theon from jump, vs.  the far chillier and less "messing with you on purpose" of the book. 

 

In the book the passage really conveys that they left Theon with no doubt as to where he stood in all of this.  They didn't even bother to prepare a room for him and stuck him in some infamous murder suite that has literally gone to mold.   I don't think the book could have been more obvious about the Greyjoys having long since consigned Theon to the dead and how nothing he could do could ever change that.  He died the day he left the Iron Islands for intents and purposes.  Balon Greyjoy is slightly less slimy in the book and closer to brutally cold.  Screen Balon seems a coward, book Balon seems dangerously cold-hearted. 

 

I think knowing what will happen to Theon also really colors my perception of him though.  I think I'd be far more grossed out by how he treats women if I didn't already know that horrible things will happen to him. Frat boys always bored me in real life, sticking a doublet on one in a book doesn't then render that kind of "Oh hell yeah!  I'm a dude! I like to screw and drink and then drink and screw...and then eat while watching some manly sport and drinking....and women can get the hell out until I need something to screw again..." mindset interesting.  It's a very simplistic sort of personality that lacks depth and is just dull in real life, and not rendered less so by more detail on a page.  

 

However, only because I know the ways in which Theon will be brought low does it become pitiable rather than off-putting, pretty much immediately.  He's horrible to the captain's daughter,  some distilled and condensed misogyny sprinkled all over that, but rather than being just horrified by it -- which I still am -- I ended up thinking about what is to come and cringing on his behalf.  

 

Okay, so this didn't happen much in the first book, but it is now. I want to get back to reading some more.