Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Constantinople]

They aren't rules, per se, but they ARE niceties I like to extend to our non-show watching readers.

Yes, this may be a thread on a television site, but this sub forum is specifically for the books, and there are quite a few book readers that didn't watch S5.

If they're not rules, but niceties, could all of the niceties unique to this thread be posted in the note?

It was my understanding previously.tv never implemented TWoP's 15/15 rule -- Thank the Seven! -- but even under the most expansive definition of that monstrosity, posters wouldn't have been expected to go back 60-odd pages to read posts months old to find out that for purposes of this one thread only, a spoiler includes anything in an episode aired after season 4 until such time as all of the books in ASOIAF have been published.

[mac123x]

Okay, Sansa and Brienne's chapters are both behind me.

 

I liked the last Sansa chapter a lot, even though not a lot actually happens, it's more setup.  I enjoyed Sansa finally getting a friend in Myranda Royce, and I enjoyed watching her LARPing as Alayne Stone. 

 

The thing that really stuck with me from it was just how stupid the  design of the Eyrie is for a castle.  Remote, damn near inaccessible, and uninhabitable for the duration of winter, and apparently no one does any road maintenance on the path leading up to it.  Also, they use oxen to power the winches for the buckets, but slaughtered the oxen before the final descent.  Come next spring, how do they operate the buckets?  Does someone hand-carry some baby oxen up the final climb, then they wait for the oxen to grow up?  Logic bombs like that bug me.

[Mya Stone]

If they're not rules, but niceties, could all of the niceties unique to this thread be posted in the note?It was my understanding previously.tv never implemented TWoP's 15/15 rule -- Thank the Seven! -- but even under the most expansive definition of that monstrosity, posters wouldn't have been expected to go back 60-odd pages to read posts months old to find out that for purposes of this one thread only, a spoiler includes anything in an episode aired after season 4 until such time as all of the books in ASOIAF have been published.

We have not implemented that. And sure thing. Anything for you!

[ImpinAintEasy]

Re: the lack of hope in the show, I don't really get this sentiment. Yes, the show is darker, and lacks the heart that the books possess, but I still think it's easy to root for the Starks. While I have not liked what they have done with Jaime or Brienne, I still root for them. Most of my non-book reading friends and family love Tyrion and Dany, and are rooting for them too. Davos is a character worth rooting for as well. I still have hope that good will prevail and justice will be served. Winter is a time for wolves, after all. 

[WindyNights]

Re: the lack of hope in the show, I don't really get this sentiment. Yes, the show is darker, and lacks the heart that the books possess, but I still think it's easy to root for the Starks. While I have not liked what they have done with Jaime or Brienne, I still root for them. Most of my non-book reading friends and family love Tyrion and Dany, and are rooting for them too. Davos is a character worth rooting for as well. I still have hope that good will prevail and justice will be served. Winter is a time for wolves, after all.

Darkness Induce Apathy. Meaning that the books' bleakness but dialed up to 11 has caused people to not utter the seven deadly words: "I don't care what happens to these people"

(Season 5 spoilers ahead) Think about it:

Jon is

dead with little hope that he comes back

Sana got

raped and jumped off a castle wall. Seemingly dead.

Arya is irrelevant right now

Bran didn't show up this season at all

In the show rooting for the Starks feels like rooting for the team that never wins.

The rest:

Brienne

completely failed in her mission, got an old lady killed and killed a dying man. ( At least the books gave her an arc and she helped people along the way)

Jaime is a kin-slaying rapist. Even then though he

also failed his mission to save his daughter. In fact they pulled the same tactic this season with Stannis and Shireen that they did with Jaime and Myrcella. Give them a touching moment and then kill them cruelly.

The show goes out of its way to pull the rug from under us to kick us in the nuts repeatedly.

Why root for anyone when you know youre bound to disappointment.

The only person that got any successes this season was RamSue. He got

Sansa as a wife, he has another girlfriend, he beat one of Westeros' best military commanders, showed his father up and got confirmed to be his father's heir.[/spoiler

On Dany and Tyrion:

Dany still isn't

in Westeros.

So there's just Tyrion right now and he spent most of the season

moping and drunk.

I'm pulling this from what my friends have said.

Edited December 10, 2015 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

I don't know a single person, book reader or not, who thinks Jon is really, (season 5)

permanently dead.

Also we did kind of just have a discussion about spoilering stuff from season 5.

[Andeleisha]

I liked the last Sansa chapter a lot, even though not a lot actually happens, it's more setup. I enjoyed Sansa finally getting a friend in Myranda Royce, and I enjoyed watching her LARPing as Alayne Stone.

The thing that really stuck with me from it was just how stupid the design of the Eyrie is for a castle. Remote, damn near inaccessible, and uninhabitable for the duration of winter, and apparently no one does any road maintenance on the path leading up to it. Also, they use oxen to power the winches for the buckets, but slaughtered the oxen before the final descent. Come next spring, how do they operate the buckets? Does someone hand-carry some baby oxen up the final climb, then they wait for the oxen to grow up? Logic bombs like that bug me.

Seriously! How did they get the marble and building supplies up there in the first place? And apparently no one could be bothered to slap a damn railing on the path at some point in the last, what, 1000 years? I feel like this tells us something about the Arryn family: willing to be stupidly impractical for the sake of a pretentious castle.

You might be able to say the same of the Starks: it may be cold outside, but their castle has a warm heart! I'll see myself out...

Edited December 10, 2015 by Andeleisha

[Ashara Payne]

Maybe it was built with magic! Like the pyramids in Egypt, according to some local Joanna Lumley so beautifully interviewed.

[Terra Nova]

I assumed that there's another way to operate the winch from the bottom too (since the upper winch is necessary to slow the bucket's descent), to maybe raise the bucket once it's down. So when spring comes they just lift it once with someone inside + baby oxens...

 

As for Sansa, don't worry Shimpy, even Petyr admitted she can't be wed as long as her first marriage is still valid. So I would say her virtue for now is safe. Also, some fans (I wasn't convinced at first, but in time I came around it) speculated that Anya Waynwood suspects Sansa's true identity (her comment about the girl being 'gently bred' and having witnessed enough horrors already), and that's indeed Petyr's plan, to have the Lords guess who she is, instead of her revelation being welcomed as a lie. Anyway, no way Lady Anya would allow her ward to mistreat Sansa.

Also, yeah, the Mad Mouse showed up in the Vale, I would be more worried about him recognizing and kidnapping her for the ransom.

 

As for Catelyn, well, being dead for several days in a river may have caused her brain to turn a little bit mushy, and her last memories before dying are just a string of horror and pain and despair and 'Jaime Lannister sends his regards'. Oh, and her losing her minds also. So, yep, by not giving her a POV until now I think Martin made clear that Stoneheart is not the Lady Catelyn we knew.

 

 

For the Show and the induced apathy: it's totally true, it has reached a point where any act of kindness only heralds some major downfall or tragedy (see the aforementioned Myrcella and Shireen 'cute' moments). Look only at Arya in Braavos: the place is bleak, the waif is a catty girl who beats and resents her for no reason, while in the book Arya seems to be at least taken care of and is in a much better condition than in the Riverlands. Shimpy already lamented turning the Night's Watch into an order inhabited by the scum of Westeros, and (season 5)

Jon is killed because is the only one with the brain to understand what the real threat is and wants to help the wildlings

As for the rooting for Tyrion and Dany, the first one has been turned long ago into an unproblematic fave, and if you don't like him you're a disgusting ableist! Daenerys is the chick with dragons, so badass, 'go muh guuuuurl Kelly C!' Where are their nuances? As a book reader I don't root for any of them, why the show has to spoon-feed me how awesome they are? And that's the point: readers can decide, with valid reasons!, whether to root for someone or not. With the show is much more difficult to have the same freedom - I'm growing increasingly dubious about whether the showrunners intend us to root for Ramsay, though, but for example, there's no doubt they mislike Stannis and took great pain so that the audience misliked him too -: the greys have been erased, it's black or white, good or bad (but still, 'if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention, ahr ahr ahr!')

Edited December 10, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

Bran didn't show up this season at all

 

Bran

is off rooting [for] himself.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Haleth

[Eegah]

The best way I've ever seen it put is, the books refuse to cheat to let the heroes win, but the show cheats to let the VILLAINS win. They should consider just turning things over to the Once Upon a Time guys and get it over with.

[ambi76]

About the show's abject darkness (Season 6 spoilers):

I think the "Bloody Hand" version of the show and Mace Tyrell's undoubtetly hilarious reaction to it, will be the much needed comic relief next season. That's probably why it will be in three episodes.

[mac123x]

Haleth, with that last comment I think you've taken leaf of your senses.  [/rimshot]

 

I'm growing increasingly dubious about whether the showrunners intend us to root for Ramsay, though, but for example

 

Season 4 Ramsey was, for me, at least understandable.  I didn't sympathize with him or anything, but he did have a character arc (trying and eventually succeeding in winning his father's approval).  I don't know that we're really supposed to root for a villain protagonist, but I could see his growth.  I particularly liked the changes the season 4 of the show made to his relationship with Theon/Reek.  It's much more psychological, and Reek seems to be genuinely his pet.  The scene where Ramsey bathes Theon, and Theon's reaction to this tiny bit of kindness, was really well done.  There was method to his madness; breaking Theon had a purpose.

 

Season 5 and Book 5 Spoiler: 

They tossed that subtlety away in season 5, making Ramsey cruel just for the sake of cruelty.  It's more in keeping with the ADWD, but it seemed like they regressed him just because they wanted a Joffrey 2.0.  They flattened out a character that previously had some nuance.  Then Ramsey Sue and Seal Team Six infiltrating Stannis's camp made me say "oh just die already, I'm bored of you".

[stillshimpy]

but I still think it's easy to root for the Starks.

 

Already covered above why that made me actually guffaw.  Righty-o.  Your answer is the reason for the disease. 

 

 

 

The best way I've ever seen it put is, the books refuse to cheat to let the heroes win, but the show cheats to let the VILLAINS win. They should consider just turning things over to the Once Upon a Time guys and get it over with.

 

That is a brilliant way of putting that.  It's also entirely true.  Even when the villains lose one, it's kind of an unbalanced scale.  Season five

Cersei in the clutches of the High Sparrow ends with a bad haircut and an unpleasant, filthy walk, where she's going to need a scented bath and a pedicure to recover from that stuff.

 

Meanwhile Season Five

the show pretends that Sansa Stark is the key to the North, but the fucking Boltons can essentially cut off her face if the notion strikes them and none of the Northerners, who care about her being a Stark, will do more than dodder around with a taper candle and intone "The North Remembers....fat lot of good it will do you....enjoy being imprisoned, raped (in front of the guy who is responsible for the ruination of your home, by the way, and who you think murdered your brothers) and in every way mistreated.  When you attempt to be rescued by the Taper Of Great Import, Brienne will choose that moment to quit staring at it, because that's how your fucking luck rolls....backwards.  Need an out?  You get to jump off a damned wall.   Apparently to your death, and if its not to your death?  You're going to set off, on foot, with no supplies, in the Rape and Skinning Woods.  Fare-thee-well.  You don't even have a fucking water bottle or matchbook with you."

 

As for the season five

no one really believes Jon Snow is dead.  I did until I came here and then every media outlet in the world started doing cutesy shit with Kit Harrington's image and big ass "What will happen?" type of "total spoiler in that title" kind of stuff.  Then HBO starting peppering the landscape with a million posters that have him front and center.  

 

continued season five

A lot of people watched that and assumed that he was dead and you know why?  Because they kill shit out of decent characters on this show.  If you're a cousin of even passably decent, you're doomed.  Go ahead and have that dietary cheat day! It's the end of your world as you know it.

 

Or how about this little fun show trope?  There is no greater marker of "Oh someone in this scene is a fucking goner.  They've just been an interested or loving parent to their child.

 

Season Five

which they cranked until the meter broke when they had the character we affectionately called Fuck Men who was a) awesome altogether! b) good, loving and tender towards her children! c) went back to help the old and infirm!    Now what happened to her?  In a stroke of "mwahahahaaa, take this, sucker!" ....they had her killed by zombie children.  

 

I mean, kudos on the level of commitment to a theme and all, Show, but there's room for subtlety and dramatic nuance.  

 

On this show, if you like someone? Prepare to get punched in the nose for it.  And they do it on purpose. Show Oberyn was a pretty charming, good guy.  Something of a braggart and showman, but all of the "actually wants to do be a Queenmaker" subterfuge and plotting was left out entirely.  So the guy seemingly was just there to avenge his murdered loved ones.   

 

They exploded his head.  In HD.  On my 60 inch screen.  Woo.  I didn't feel in the least punished by that invitation to emotional investments payoff.  If you've read the books, he was not that great a dude.  He was doing his fair share of plotting and scheming, while avenging murdered loved ones, but he had multiple and some self-serving goals.  They actually made the character more likable.   

 

Wait, wait, there's one more (there's actually a lot more, but here we go for now) in the book Arya kills Daeron the faithless Nightswatch deserter and confessed readily to it.  She doesn't do it because he was part of her "must murder when opportunity presents" list of baddies.  No, she does it because that's what the Stark way would be.  Season five

in the show it's Trant and it is about her checklist.  It's gorefest worthy of a Hostel movie and hey bonus points for, "You liked him, didn't you? What can we do with that that will make that inclination more painful? I know!"  They recast her Old Man mentor at the House of Black and White with Jaqen.  A fan favorite.   So that when he blinds her as punishment, it felt more like yet another bear swat for liking anyone.

 

Also, I've just read the Cersei chapter and will have more thoughts on that when I get back from walking some dogs :D 

Edited December 10, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

Poor (I don't know if her name would be considered a spoiler, it was listed in the episode credits anyway)

Karsi

(the artist formerly known as 'Fuck Men!') had a terrible and fatal case of womb syndrome, just like (season 5 spoiler)

Selyse

. But this earned her TWO Carol awards!

After Shimpy's done with ADwD we have to link the Carol awards, for the lulz :)

 

@max123x:

my doubts are of course rooted in the notion that they tried to make him some anti-hero, more than a villain - it's safe to assume that no one regards him as being 'good' -, but just look at how the Winterfell arc revolved around him. The only plot points resembling the book counterpart have been

Ramsay gets a noble wife, and then rapes her at leisure, with his pet watching; but noooes! The perfidious pet gets away with the bride! And his daddy may soon have a trueborn heir :'(

Edited December 10, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Avaleigh]

That is a brilliant way of putting that.  It's also entirely true.  Even when the villains lose one, it's kind of an unbalanced scale.  Season five

Cersei in the clutches of the High Sparrow ends with a bad haircut and an unpleasant, filthy walk, where she's going to need a scented bath and a pedicure to recover from that stuff.

I actually think it's easy to root for the Starks. I haven't been worried about them since the Red Wedding. I honestly think that was the lowest moment and there's never been the slightest doubt in my mind that they're going to ultimately win. It's so clearly being set up that way IMO that it always surprises me when I realize there's intense doubt about the fate of all of the Starks from bookwalkers and unsullied alike. 

 

I also disagree that the bad guys don't take plenty of hits in the books. It's just not enough for people. I thought Tywin's death was *perfect* and appropriate because it was everything that he wouldn't have wanted and more, but for some people it's not enough because they see him as having died on top of the world. I couldn't disagree more with this interpretation. I have similar feelings about Joffrey's death. It was like a death that was tailor made for what a little asshole he always was but for some people it wasn't enough because it seemed too quick and he died a king. I feel like this misses all of the things that made his death feel just and kind of awesome yet still horrific. Even Tyrion almost feels sorry for Joffrey as he sees him clawing his throat bloody.

 

I actually think there are many strong examples in this series of characters getting their just desserts. 

 

Meanwhile I think the Starks actually have had luck and wins (and will likely continue to have them) but I feel like these things are often glossed over mainly because of Ned and the RW. 

 

Re: Cersei in season 5

I see that sentiment a lot--that the walk wasn't that bad and it was an easy punishment that will only take a scented bath to recover from. I honestly feel like this misses the psychological factor completely of how an incident would scar somebody like that for life. I'm not arguing that she doesn't have it coming. I'm arguing that it was a punishment with real consequences and that she's a changed wreck afterwards because of it.

 

Spoiler for Cersei in season 5

In the episode thread back when it aired, I remember reading comments about how the walk wasn't really a hardship because the double's body was too in shape and sexy and that Lena was sporting a cute pixie cut so that somehow makes the experience less horrific. Then the comments about how Cersei shouldn't have been babied by Qyburn and how this made it seem like a non punishment.

 

My take on Cersei here in this scene in season 5 was completely different. Spoiler for Cersei season 5

In the episode thread I wrote that I thought the audience was supposed to be chilled by the scene because it was like we were watching some demon birth or a kind of reverse hellish baptism. Here's what I wrote in the episode thread: "She was washed, shorn, cleansed, purified, whatever--then she begins the walk and it's like she's collecting the filth and sins of the world as she goes to her destination. As she continues to essentially be born again, she's picking up cruelty, vice, and a lot of the underbelly of humanity. When she finally slithers through the mess that is King's Landing she's wrapped up and taken into the protective arms of a disgusting monster who is giving her an instrument to refine her cruelty. He looks after her like the nanny looks after Damien in The Omen." 

 

More on the same scene from season 5

 

The experience hasn't just ended for Cersei now that she's safely behind the walls of the Red Keep. Based on the way that she was acting I'd say she's permanently scarred and that this wasn't some weak punishment that will be easy to get over. It wasn't just about the walk. Her family is through with her and she no longer has her father's protection. Kevan's disgust in that scene is clear to me. We know that she already feels broken and she doesn't know even know yet that another of her children has been murdered via poison. Her looks have been taken, she's been stripped of her power and authority, she's been humiliated and degraded and she'll never be seen again as a true Queen--all of these things are important to her and that's what makes the punishment real and meaningful from her perspective. And it's not like I believe for a second that this isn't simply round two for Cersei as far as taking hits. I'm positive that she has plenty of misery headed her way and the prophecy seems to further indicate this. Another comment I made at the time is how much Cersei resembles Joffrey at the end of that scene once she's wrapped up in the blanket and picked up by Qyburn's monster.

Resembling Joffrey can't be good for anyone.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Avaleigh

[chandraReborn]

shimpy, do you plan to read the excerpted chapters from book six after book five?  

[Skywarpgold]

shimpy, do you plan to read the excerpted chapters from book six after book five?  

I personally don't enjoy reading those anymore, as they're always out of context, and aren't final edits...I read the excerpted ADWD chapters before it came out, and just felt half-spoiled when I started reading the actual book. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Avaleigh]

I personally don't enjoy reading those anymore, as they're always out of context, and aren't final edits...I read the excerpted ADWD chapters before it came out, and just felt half-spoiled when I started reading the actual book. Just my thoughts on the matter.

I read them and with the exception of

Theon's chapter

I can't say I recall too many details. I didn't think anything was spoiled to be honest. Two other things come to mind I can't recall specifics.

There's some girl who has a dragon dream or something and it seems like it's the real deal. Maybe the girl is a Celtigar or has some Velaryon blood? The other thing is Tyrion picking up the white dragon and I think it has blood on it. I thought that was a huge hint that Tyrion will be riding and possibly even caring for a wounded Viserion.

 

 

ETA:

 

I skimmed through the Mercy chapter. I thought I'd find it more exciting but not so much.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Avaleigh

[WindyNights]

@ava The

Theon chaper is the best released TWOW chapter

.

The girl you're talking about is Stone Dornish and is a Toland.

[ImpinAintEasy]

If the Starks continue to get shit on and never have a resurgence and the Boltons and Freys wind up on top and never get their comeuppance I will eat my hat. It is the long game reverse emotional manipulation by the show. Instead of over-choreographing a character's demise by giving a touching moment, they are somehow making things worse for the Starks than George has, so when they do rise again, it will be more surprising, which is what the showrunners always aim to accomplish, at the expense of character development.

[Lady S.]

I actually think it's easy to root for the Starks. I haven't been worried about them since the Red Wedding. I honestly think that was the lowest moment and there's never been the slightest doubt in my mind that they're going to ultimately win. It's so clearly being set up that way IMO that it always surprises me when I realize there's intense doubt about the fate of all of the Starks from bookwalkers and unsullied alike. 

 

I also disagree that the bad guys don't take plenty of hits in the books. It's just not enough for people. I thought Tywin's death was *perfect* and appropriate because it was everything that he wouldn't have wanted and more, but for some people it's not enough because they see him as having died on top of the world. I couldn't disagree more with this interpretation. I have similar feelings about Joffrey's death. It was like a death that was tailor made for what a little asshole he always was but for some people it wasn't enough because it seemed too quick and he died a king. I feel like this misses all of the things that made his death feel just and kind of awesome yet still horrific. Even Tyrion almost feels sorry for Joffrey as he sees him clawing his throat bloody.

 

I actually think there are many strong examples in this series of characters getting their just desserts. 

 

Meanwhile I think the Starks actually have had luck and wins (and will likely continue to have them) but I feel like these things are often glossed over mainly because of Ned and the RW.

IA about not worrying about the Starks, but I don't think people wanting worse for their enemies is just about vengeance. It's just that the more horrible deaths do happen to the "good" main characters. The Starks did have it worse, they got far more than their just desserts. Ned's head was left to rot on a spike for weeks, and Robb's corpse/his wolf's were desecrated in the worst way, while Catelyn's was also mocked by being thrown into the river. Their castle was sacked and burned, with all their smallfolk murdered or taken prisoner by Ramsay. The four youngest Starks survived but they're all in bad positions, Sansa is being groomed by the guy who betrayed her father, Arya spent around a year in a warzone and was forced into slave labor at Harrenhal, with PTSD from all the atrocities she witnessed destroying her childhood, and Rickon was abandoned by most of his family at 3, had to leave home and his remaining brother at 4 and will be lucky to even remember Robb and his parents when he's grown. The Northern army was massacred at the Red Wedding and in Roose's betrayals at Duskendale and the Ruby Ford, and the Riverlands suffered massively from Tywin's campaign of terror. Jaime and Tyrion have both had their share of suffering, but House Lannister has not been hit the way House Stark was.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Lady S.

[Mya Stone]

IA about not worrying about the Starks, but I don't think people wanting worse for their enemies is just about vengeance. It's just that the more horrible do happen to the "good" main characters. The Starks did have it worse, they got far more than their just desserts. Ned's head was left to rot on a spike for weeks, and Robb's corpse/his wolf's were desecrated in the worst way, while Catelyn's was also mocked by being thrown into the river. Their castle was sacked and burned, with all their smallfolk murdered or taken prisoner by Ramsay. The four youngest Starks survived but they're all in bad positions, Sansa is being groomed by the guy who betrayed her father, Arya spent around a year in a warzone and was forced into slave labor at Harrenhal, with PTSD from all the atrocities she witnessed destroying her childhood, and Rickon was abandoned by most of his family at 3, had to leave home and his remaining brother at 4 and will be lucky to even remember Robb and his parents when he's grown. The Northern army was massacred at the Red Wedding and in Roose's betrayals at Duskendale and the Ruby Ford, and the Riverlands suffered massively from Tywin's campaign of terror. Jaime and Tyrion have both had their share of suffering, but House Lannister has not been hit the way House Stark was.

Oh my god, when you put it that way... :(

[Haleth]

Yet by the end of books 4 and 5

things are hopeful. They are all safe (as they can be) and learning they have strengths and talents to help them survive. I've no doubt that the Starks are not down for long.

[ElizaD]

Though I'm not ready to bet that all the remaining Starks will survive, I'm absolutely sure that they will regain Winterfell and the North. Yet how much will that be worth when they'll be wrecks who have lost their parents and endured various forms of physical and emotional trauma that will stay with them for all their lives? There's going to be a victory, but it will be a hollow one since there has been no buildup that would suggest hope and emotional recovery in ASOIAF, just weary survivors picking up the pieces and taking on the drudgery of rebuilding the realm. Fans like to talk about Stark reunions, but even if Sansa and Arya meet again and embrace while apologizing for the stupid things they said to each other when they were still happy, sheltered children, Sansa will have been altered by her abuse by the men in her life and Arya by her time as, essentially, a child soldier. The only hope is plot-related: the Starks will be lords again. But there's no sense of positive intensity, the recovery of confidence or the ability to form deep relationships that could help the Stark kids start new adult lives the way Ned and Cat's generation did after the rebellion. Instead there's isolation, passivity and being moved by forces beyond their control towards something that's presumably going to improve their status at some point in the unwritten future. That's why I think ADWD's

Theon plot, concluding with his return to his own name, and Manderly's revenge

instantly achieved such popularity even though they can't be counted as major wins: they're extremely rare cases of being able to say hell yeah not because psycho #1 did something bad to psycho #2 for purely selfish reasons but because a character was able to achieve personal growth despite enduring terrible things or because he's voicing our anger and not putting up with this shit any longer.

 

IMO, above all it's a conflict between what I know is the narrative inevitability (the protagonists will make it to the final fight and at least one of them ends up on top) and what I've actually been reading/watching for years (hopeless, joyless pawns being pushed this way and that while the bad guys chill, enjoy their ill-gotten spoils and then turn on each other since the protagonists have been rendered powerless). And even the inevitability doesn't offer much comfort since the ongoing sufferings seem to be leaving such lasting damage; for example, GRRM has written Arya so well and made me care about her that it's tough to think about how unlikely it is that the books will devote the same kind of attention to her recovery as they did to breaking her - right now I can't see light at the end of that tunnel, only the possibility of dead bodies that may belong to some of the people who hurt her, which is better than nothing but not really a sign that she can become a stable, healthy adult.

[stillshimpy]

Lady S, just covered most of what my response would be, Avaleigh.  It really is that what happens to good character is awful on a truly "Oh it's a horror movie?" scale.  

 

Season five

you're going to have to forgive the snide hyperbole about Cersei, in my case I meant that she stands a fucking chance of recovering from what happened to her and she is, without question, even in the show a character who has perpetrated actual EVIL SHIT ON PURPOSE.  The same can not be said of the Starks.  They've done stupid things but they actually set out to hurt other people with their actions.  They aren't about hurting other people for their own personal gains.  They fuck up serving the realm, their region and their families, while trying to do the right thing.  The honorable thing.

 

Continued

It also gets a metric fuckton of worse when it comes to Cersei's fate because what makes that insulting isn't "Oh poor baby. You'll be fine."  No she will realistically be a trauma survivor....however, that was all done to her because of she actually did.  That was her TRIAL for the love gods, squirrels, rats and cats.

 

 

Continued

That was done to her as a punishment for her misdeeds.  She's walking, not missing any parts and whereas she will actually have some trauma that might change her...that was all visited upon her for things she actually did.  She had Robert killed and knew to do so because Ned Stark was trying to spare her children.  All within the framework of this show.  

 

What was Ned's punishment for that again?  Oh that's right.  I remember now.  

 

I'm not not saying "Man, I've had worse papercuts, suck it up, Sista!" but I am saying that the balance of truly epically bad stuff happens to characters that are not the bad guys.  Twyin is killed pretty swiftly after a full minute of being stressed out.  After having had sex with a nubile young woman.  It was hard to think, "You got yours!" from that. 

 

Also, speaking from the perspective of someone who actually hadn't read the books until recently, it is nowhere near as easy to believe "I think the Starks will have some sort of justice" when you just watch the show, because they are the show's pinata.  

 

If you don't know that the books contain a slightly better narrative balance?  The show doesn't actually illustrate that.   There is never a way to unknow things and I'm here to tell you, these books are not going to be for casual readers.  This is not like True Blood where if you wanted to get a sense of the source material....take the afternoon and do so.  Light, light reads those books.  Terrible books, just awful, but you get a sense of what goes on in that author's world.  

 

To get that same "Okay, I need to find out more" requires some dedication to doing so in this case.  Add to that that most people don't have an entire team of people urging them on to say "I think you'll find it worthwhile and you'll discover a lot of good things." 

 

People have asked me, do I plan on reading the Unsullied threads now?  No.  I don't.  If the themes of the show continue in the same vein, it would actually be difficult for me to watch people I know trying to slog through it.  Most of those folks will NOT read the books until the series is done.  Mya just told that this show is going to run for eight seasons.  

 

Eight seasons.  Yeah, if any of them are left when the final credits roll they will be clustered under a daylight lamp trying to beat back the SAD. Show Affective Disorder.  They'll be chowing down on chamomile everything.  

 

I honestly don't remember the last arguably good thing that happened on the show.  It's not like I wasn't watching carefully either.  ETA: Wait, I remembered!  Dany's life doesn't always wholesale suck.  

Edited December 10, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Drogon

burning a hunch of people alive

was kind of good?

Also,

Hardhome was sort of awesome

, but that's not really the same thing as good.

I assume you're talking the fluffy bunny kind of good and not the quality level of good.

[mac123x]

Season 5 spoiler:

Jon killing a White Walker with Longclaw was good, though it got stomped on immediately with the Night King's "muahaha, my army just got 10k new recruits" at the end of the battle.  I'd also say Varys and Tyrion's final scene in Meereen had some hopefulness to it.  Though I'm sure Meereen will decend into a cesspit of human misery 30 minutes in to E06.01

[Haleth]

That was why I put off reading the books for so long; I'd been clued in that they are unrelentingly grim. Nothing good ever happens to anyone. I truly believe this is the turning point though. Yes, horrible things will continue to happen to characters we care about, but small victories

Manderly

will occur with increasing frequency.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. God bless us all, every one.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Haleth

[magdalene]

I never worry for the Stark children, it's clear they are the end game characters and all of them will not only survive but win in the end.  Sure, Ned and Cat suffered bad fates but that's what always happens to parents in this kind of tale.  To be glib for a moment - Bambi's mother had to die so Bambi could reach its full potential.

 

GRRM is really not as unpredictable a writer as he thinks he is. 

[Delta1212]

That was why I put off reading the books for so long; I'd been clued in that they are unrelentingly grim. Nothing good ever happens to anyone. I truly believe this is the turning point though. Yes, horrible things will continue to happen to characters we care about, but small victories

Manderly

will occur with increasing frequency.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. God bless us all, every one.

"Small"

[Avaleigh]

IA about not worrying about the Starks, but I don't think people wanting worse for their enemies is just about vengeance. It's just that the more horrible deaths do happen to the "good" main characters. The Starks did have it worse, they got far more than their just desserts. Ned's head was left to rot on a spike for weeks, and Robb's corpse/his wolf's were desecrated in the worst way, while Catelyn's was also mocked by being thrown into the river. Their castle was sacked and burned, with all their smallfolk murdered or taken prisoner by Ramsay. The four youngest Starks survived but they're all in bad positions, Sansa is being groomed by the guy who betrayed her father, Arya spent around a year in a warzone and was forced into slave labor at Harrenhal, with PTSD from all the atrocities she witnessed destroying her childhood, and Rickon was abandoned by most of his family at 3, had to leave home and his remaining brother at 4 and will be lucky to even remember Robb and his parents when he's grown. The Northern army was massacred at the Red Wedding and in Roose's betrayals at Duskendale and the Ruby Ford, and the Riverlands suffered massively from Tywin's campaign of terror. Jaime and Tyrion have both had their share of suffering, but House Lannister has not been hit the way House Stark was.

I'm going to spoiler tag my response because I feel like I'll unknowingly end up spoiling something past where Shimpy currently is.  

 

As far as characters getting what's coming to them,

I think of Theon's huge betrayal of the Starks and the cruelty he inflicted on so many others and I'd say that he got an epic dose of payback. I think the Mountain being in permanent pain and the gruesome death of Vargo Hoat and think that the bad guys have gone out in some nicely satisfying ways. Rorge and Biter are killed by two of the good guys. Janos Slynt gets payback and dies in fear begging and apologetic. Tywin's corpse was mocked and laughed at for reeking horribly not to mention the absurd smile that was stuck on his face. Tywin would have been so pissed and angry about all of it, Tyrion's involvement especially. If Ramsay doesn't get a spectacularly twisted death I'll be shocked. We're only at the beginning of Cersei's suffering and Jaime's too probably. I fully expect Victarion to be burned alive by a dragon which would be fitting considering what he did to the virgins and perfumed boys among many other sins. Walder Frey I'm expecting it next season and next book. They have to save killing off some of the bad guys for later books.

 

When it comes to the fates of the remaining Starks,

I feel like they're all in strong positions whereas the children of most of the other great families are in pretty terrible positions. I don't like that Arya is currently training to be a serial killer but she certainly is doing everything she can to get revenge and keep herself from ever being a victim again. Rickon seems to be safe and protected. He may or may not becoming a little cannibal but I don't see him being a victim again. Bran is learning to be the new Bloodraven (debatable about whether or not this is a good thing but I don't think he'll be victimized again unless maybe it's something to do with the white walkers) Sansa is eating lemon cakes in the Vale, running around giggling with Myranda, and is in position to marry one of the most eligible men in Westeros. I don't begrudge her this, goodness knows that Sansa deserves some peace and happiness, but when I compare Sansa's situation to the children of other great houses and I'm not seeing where the Starks are always losing while the other side isn't taking hits. Tommen, Mycella, Shireen, Robert Arryn, Margaery, Asha, etc. Sansa's current position doesn't seem so bad. Same with Ayra and the others.

 

To me House Stark seems like it's in a better position than House Lannister unless we're counting the Lannister cadet branches. The Lannisters just lost their last competent member apart from Jaime and maybe Daven. It's all downhill for them from here.

[Delta1212]

I never worry for the Stark children, it's clear they are the end game characters and all of them will not only survive but win in the end. Sure, Ned and Cat suffered bad fates but that's what always happens to parents in this kind of tale. To be glib for a moment - Bambi's mother had to die so Bambi could reach its full potential.

GRRM is really not as unpredictable a writer as he thinks he is.

The goal isn't really to be unpredictable, though. Being unpredictable is very easy but rarely makes for a satisfying story. The trick is to be predictable in a way that makes your audience work for it a little so that they don't get bored.

[Avaleigh]

The goal isn't really to be unpredictable, though. Being unpredictable is very easy but rarely makes for a satisfying story. The trick is to be predictable in a way that makes your audience work for it a little so that they don't get bored.

I've always had the impression that GRRM has a reputation for being shocking and unpredictable when it comes to character deaths. I feel that this reputation is exaggerated somewhat and seems to be based mostly on the shock of the Red Wedding. (I could see Robb's death coming a mile away. It was Catelyn's that surprised me at the time because she was the POV.) I think because I read so much about how merciless and unpredictable GRRM is with his characters that it's something that I've carried with me in the back of my head when it comes to what I'm expecting to happen in future books. 

[magdalene]

I also think that a big reason folks are so frustrated with the reading experience of these books is not so much all the bad shit happening to good people in it but that Martin is taking forever writing the books. And that it is by no means a given that the books will ever be finished. 

 

Personally I am not filled with joy at the prospect that I may have to get any resolution of important story lines from the HBO show.

[stillshimpy]

Gosh, I feel like the books are much better about NOT having an unrelenting parade of grim.  Maybe because they include moments of humor or the thought process of characters.  It's just not as dark.  

The show spent an entire season where we watched a character being relentlessly maimed and tortured as he said some of the most pitiful things I've ever heard.  I'd go one here, but I have already.  So I'm honestly tickled by the thought that you guys think the books are that dark.  

 

Then I remember, I still haven't read the fifth one yet.  Cancel being tickled.  Or at least put it on pause.  I'm now at least a little alarmed. 

 

There's more variation in the books, I think.  The Septon shows up with Dog and is funny and charming.  Hyle Hunt is a wiseass and funny.  Yeah, the show had the Hound and his favorite, ultra-offensive gender-based insult.  What a giggle he was.  I'm not being entirely fair there, every now and then the show would throw in something that was cute and funny.  Arya justifying to Gendry why she didn't send Jaqen off to kill Tywin or Joffrey was genuinely funny, and much appreciated fan service.  The Hound was actually funny.  

 

Sometime Tyrion would be granted a funny line. Or look.  It isn't all just a parade of dire, it just mostly a parade of dire happenings. 

 

So anyway, back to the actual book I'm reading: Cersei's latest chapter.  Intriguing end to that and the High Sparrow just officially became really disturbing.  Not that Cersei isn't always -- and you guys are right, Margaery's more aware than she lets on -- and Taena is up to something.  She sidesteps the question of her son too nimbly each time for it to be anything other than deliberate. 

 

It's funny that Cersei's chapters are amongst the lighter things -- just because she's so bad at this all, it's actively funny -- plus she's as paranoid in an amusing way also. I know I shouldn't actually have felt a twinge of pity for the Kettleback suspended from the ceiling, but I did.   He's grotesquely scheming and trying to get several young women killed, all because Cersei's a paranoid freak.  

 

Still, torture is just the "that's officially too much suffering" thing for anyone. I  guess I'll go and find out what Jaime is going to do with all of this in his own turn. 

 

By the way, thanks for pointing out that part of what is going on with UnCat is that she had a chance to start freaking decomposing prior to being reanimated and that would include her brain. That helps explain a bit about her.  

[John Potts]

I think of UnCat as one of those undead monsters in several mythologies - the avenging spirit. Usually a murder victim, whose continued unlife is entirely absorbed by avenging those who caused her death. Particularly since Catelyn's last living action (in show, at least) was to kill an innocent girl (the latest Lady Frey).

[stillshimpy]

Right, she's The Grudge, she's not Catelyn Stark.  

 

Okay, so I've finished Jaime's chapter also and that was a lot of fun.  I see now why you were all so adamant that Jeyne Westerling was not a knowing participant in any plan to be Rob's undoing, but it sure looks like her mother had to have been the one who arranged everything and it certainly read as if she'd made all kinds of arrangements with Tywin Lannister.  

 

I'm still bothered by the fact that with virginity being an actual commodity and her mother being so intent on socially climbing, that Jeyne was anywhere near a teenage boy, when there'd be no earthly reason to have her nursing him.  Maybe it's just a mistake Martin made, but I don't know.  Still seems like something deliberate had to be churning around in Lady Westerling's mind when she sent her virginal daughter into to nurse a guy. 

 

See, there's a specific reason that this is bugging me so much and I think Martin would know it:  Unmarried women weren't allowed to nurse soldiers specifically because of standards about purity....which Martin's creative world seems to share.  They have all the same concerns in Westeros about being naked, seeing naked forms, etc.  It's a big deal that they are stripped naked on Wedding Nights.  

 

So barring any new information, I have to conclude that Jeyne was told to go and raise the gate there.  That she ended up loving him makes sense.  He was good-looking, kind and he loved her.  I don't suppose there's any chance she caught on and ditched the tea at any point -- although riding out three times still is such an odd detail -- that chapter makes it clear none of the younger Westerlings understood that it was all a setup.  The brother who jumped into the river apparently cut Robb's direwolf free.   

 

I really can't tell if that was just all an error on Martin's part, that he didn't think through the logic of "dude, they wouldn't let her be his nurse, it wouldn't matter if she was skilled, they'd have had her mother doing it specifically to make sure that her reputation wasn't compromised.  They didn't let virginal young women around male nudity, basically and this world has those standards.  

 

Moving on from that, because it's sort of irksome if it is just a mistake and if it wasn't, I guess that will eventually be detailed more.  Jaime spends enough time thinking about how Jeyne is dangerous to broadly hint, "Okay, so she's going to end up being dangerous, I suppose."  

 

The rest of it was a great chapter.  One of the best ones in the book, I thought. So that's why the Blackfish was sent off in the show, to take a-year-long leak?  Brynden gets out of Riverrun alive.  Good.  At least for the book.  I found Thugfish so boorish on the show, I don't care if I ever see that character again. 

 

I'm trying to psych myself up for Sam's chapter.  His tend to drag a bit for me, so it's a pity that he's closing out the book.   

 

I did like that Jaime had the letter burned, but I don't know if it means what I hope it means.  Jaime has become one of the more interesting characters.  His chapters are never dull at least. 

 

This poor book.  It takes more than half of it to get going anywhere and it had a lot of material that needed to be trimmed down significantly.  Still, I ended up enjoying it towards the end.  Here's hoping the next one is a bit better paced.  

[bobbybuilderton]

I was so happy when I read Jaime say to throw the letter in the fire. I could just picture it in my head. It was especially fun because I started reading after the show came out and so the actor for Jaime was in my head so clearly. But then they went the complete opposite direction for Jaime. Not only is he still fully loyal to Cersei, he is going on some idiotic covert mission to Dorne for their daughter to prove his love for Cersei. Who then turns out to be okay with her father figures being a (probably) neglectful drunkard and her uncle. It's honestly the complete opposite of the character, for no reason. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Andeleisha]

I'm trying to psych myself up for Sam's chapter.  His tend to drag a bit for me, so it's a pity that he's closing out the book.   

Be on the lookout for small details in Sam's chapter! Lots of clues.

[magdalene]

I was so pleased when Jaime burned Cersei's letter that I bounced around the room when I first read the chapter. I don't know whether Jaime can really get free from Cersei in the long run but this was such a satisfying moment in Jaime's  journey for me.  I really enjoy his thoughts about people and things and his efforts to think things through and to be decent  I appreciated how he handled the whole Riverrun situation and that he managed to avoid getting lots of people killed by basically using his bad rep and bluffing. 

[Triskan]

I'm trying to psych myself up for Sam's chapter.  His tend to drag a bit for me, so it's a pity that he's closing out the book.

 

 

In a way, it is the most mysterious chapter of the entire saga, yes, even more than the House of the Undying, in my opinion. That final Sam chapter is atmospheric, menacing, setting a lot of things and posing quite a lot of brand new questions... I hope you'll enjoy it and understand why it closes the book ! ;)

[mac123x]

Aha, you've reached another crack theory kickoff point!  When Cat met Jeyne, she specifically noted that she had good hips (presumably for child-bearing).  In Jaime's chapter he describes her as having narrow hips.  Thus spawns the "that's not really Jeyne in Jaime's chapter, it's an imposter and Jeyne is off with the Blackfish, possibly even knocked up" theory.

 

It's interesting to see theories spin out of one sentence.  Personally, I think it's an example of GRRM's intentional "different POV characters see things and remember things differently" trope.  Which reminds me:

 

SInce you've read Sansa's last chapter, did you notice that she recalls the Hound kissing her before he scarpered during the Battle of the Blackwater?  If you go back to CoK, he didn't.  She's just misremembering.

Edited December 11, 2015 by mac123x

[stillshimpy]

SInce you've read Sansa's last chapter, did you notice that she recalls the Hound kissing her before he scarpered during the Battle of the Blackwater?  If you go back to CoK, he didn't.  She's just misremembering.

 

I did notice that, but I actually put that down to something different.  Poor Sansa is in the midst of some bizarre "Let's kiss Sansa inappropriately" inundation.  I assumed that it had something to do with things like Robert grabbing her and kissing her and apparently that's been some sort of currency in getting him to do what he is supposed to prior to this.  Then I just don't even want to go into the weirdness that was Petyr apparently making out with her whenever he feels like it.  So it didn't actually strike me as that odd, just that it indicated that Sansa wasn't actually okay with Robert and Petyr deciding to kiss her whenever they like.  Having the wrong memory, of a moment when she narrowly avoided being raped, as being kissed by The Hound seemed to be more telling of how she felt about all the unwanted lip action she was receiving. 

 

By the way, that's all so inappropriate and strange that even the show recognized "Yeah, even though we're not really playing that vibe?  She's his cousin.  End of that story."  

Edited December 11, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Eegah]

I heard somewhere that Martin stated the hips are just a continuity error, but I definitely don't trust him to not just pull a Lindeloff on us at this point.

[glowbug]

The differing description of Jeyne's hips apparently was an error on Martin's part because Jamie's chapter no longer contains a description of Jeyne's hips in current print editions of the book (according to this picture). I'm not sure about ebooks because I had a digital copy purchased many years after Feast came out and it's still in there. 

[Terra Nova]

Sansa has beed misremembering that kiss since he first chapter in A Storm of Swords though ;)
I'll let you know Shimpy that the SanSan fandom is pretty passionate (some would say rabid), but clearly most of us hope for an older Sansa to get all rumpy-pumpy with Sandor!

And yes, the hip thing was just a mistake, though it crushed me knowing it. Martin is very honest in answering or not answering questions regarding future plot points, and I don't remember him lying, not even once. He said that he doesn't care if most fans guess correctly future twists, he's not going to rewrite and change things for cheap shock at the cost of compromising the narrative integrity. He always said that for an author to pull something out of nowhere is basically cheating, and he's not interested in that.
Oh the irony, since the show has been increasingly erasing small details so that the twists are more 'shocking!'

 

Wasn't Shimpy asking for some Frey to be murdered last Jaime's chapter? There you are :) and look, there's Tom having a look at the encampment and at some point there should be a marriage between Daven Lannister and some Frey girl (poor Daven, I like him).

Finally, what's all this talk of the books being grim and alarming Shimpy? Last page it has been said the books do not cheat for making the good guys win, and that's the best way to put it. Of course Martin stated the end will be bittersweet, but I try to focus on the 'sweet' part, knowing full well that a lot of characters will go down in the last two books.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

San-San fans are really weird. Like I get that Sansa is attracted to him but Sandor comes out and says he was trying to rape Sansa. Not exactly someone that I want to put with her.

Not to mention that she was 11-12 when he had feelings for her. Talk about ewwwww.

@shimpy It's either that the Crag was understaffed or Jeyne's mom tried to hedge her bets. If Tywin turned her down well her daughter is now Queen of the North. If Tywin didn't then her family gets rewarded.

[ambi76]

Jaime has become one of the more interesting characters.  His chapters are never dull at least.

 

Ah the Jaime love, it tickles my heart so. He's totally my favorite POV ... Damn, now I 've done it, haven't I? ;-)

 

Glad you came around to find cray-cray Cersei amusing, I was a bit worried when you thought her so annyoing and boring at first. I was like "Oh come on, shimpy, she is awesome!" but then I remembered I too found her annyoing and boring on my first AFFC read.

 

As much as I defend this book my first read was not very different from many: "What in the who? GRRM, really? Who cares? Now whut? Gah I'm not going to read that. Oh come on..." etc. It was just on my second read that this magically changed into: "WTF? Why did I not like this book? It's fucking awesome and my favorite (bar ASOS)!" On my second and the subsequent reads Cersei's POV is just to precious for words probably because now it's like watching a trainwreck and you now exactly how it ends.

 

Here's hoping the next one is a bit better paced.

 

Oh, well. I'm not a big fan of ADWD but am aware that comes mostly form not caring about Jon, Dany, and all the other "goodies". Hacking AFFC and ADWD in two pieces was one of the dumbest ideas ever, but it was either that or waiting 10+ years for a 2000 page monster. And I want TWOW now!11!! *angrily stomps feet*

Edited December 11, 2015 by ambi76

[Terra Nova]

Like I get that Sansa is attracted to him but Sandor comes out and says he was trying to rape Sansa.

[...]

Not to mention that she was 11-12 when he had feelings for her. Talk about ewwwww.

I've always intended that rapey bit as both a way to goad Arya into kill him, but most of all he's not saying 'I wanted to rape her', but 'Better to rape her and tear her heart out of her chest than leave her to the Imp'. Notice that Sandor looses is shit as soon as he discovers Sansa has been married to Tyrion: he's been in the Lannister household all his life, maybe he got to know some foul rumor about what Tyrion does to his wives (also, Sandor never flaunted his erected penis in the face of said teen girl, so yeah). So in a way, hes' saying 'I would have killed the only good thing in my life myself, rather than leaving her suffer that'.

Also, it's telling that after the show erased all the romantic undertones between the two*, it made dying Sandor say 'I should have taken her too, at least I would have had a happy memory', which is not even an exact quote from the book.

 

* There's something tiny tiny tiny if you swuint your eyes, like the look Sandor gives Sansa after he tells her 'I'll be the only thing between you and your beloved King', or this:

http://romancingthecage.tumblr.com/post/90157713456

In Martin's scripted episode (also, his cinema's name is Jean Cocteau, he was screenwriter for the Beauty and the Beast tv series..)

 

It's more that Sansa wants him, truly, and Sandor has showed affection in his twisted, hurt and a little emo-ish way ^^ I mean, it's hilarious how in Clash he's pissed at her for being around, while he's the one searching for her all the time, he's like some pouty boy: 'what are these feelings? OMGs, make them go away!'

 

The age irks me, but that's Martin's fault, he said he originally expected a span of five years or more for the first three books alone, and that would have made Sansa 14-15 at least. Still bad, but I think comes with the medieval setting with boy kings and teens being astonishing military commanders.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Terra Nova