Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Lavignac]

But... didn't Snuffleupagus already appear at the Wall, herded by Wun Wun and Mag the Mighty to try and pull down the gates?

[Triskan]

Ah, so you've gotten to one of the more infamous sex scenes in the books. Fat Pink Mast is not one of George's best euphemisms, and that is saying something.

 

Well, I've read (or seen on youtube, cant remember) some kind of essay where, basically, the point was that the poor way Sam describes his penis is a reflexion of his own poor views on that part of his anatomy. I kinda like that interpretation, actually, it makes sense (imo). 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Triskan

[stillshimpy]

In fairness, and god knows I'm not above making fun of something I consider to be poorly written, that sex scene was just plain horrible on a level his others ones aren't.  The man really did not miss his calling as a writer of erotica.  I'm always at least vaguely embarrassed for him (at best), but that rose to a new level of awful, so I assumed it really was intentional.  If you contrast Cersei's off-putting encounter with Lady Merryweather with Sam's Abstinence Promoting first time with Gilly (his fascination from the last book with her lactating breasts is more than a bit psycho-sexual, to be honest), they are both terribly written but for different and entirely separate reasons.  He thinks his erection looks laughable and his description was only slightly better than one I saw years ago -- that was meant to be funny -- in which a woman confronts her husband's junk for the first time on the wedding night and thinks it is the color of Silly Putty.  

 

I think that the pink mast stuff was supposed to be thematic because they are at sea, which will turn out to be something revisited at the end of the chapter, but I do think that all of the normal judgments and "let me male gaze the hell out of this woman's bits and parts" are directed at Sam, by Sam.  

 

I think Martin's sex scenes are one of those things that it's best to leave in the haze.  They aren't his forte, his obsession with breasts went to a new level here, but in fairness to the man, I do think it was meant to be awkward and poorly worded to convey Sam's own self-image and how he can't even stop criticizing himself while aroused.  That's how deep his damage runs. 

 

But most of Martin's sex scenes register on the "well that was odd, or off-putting" scale and are terribly unsexy.  I had been forewarned about that and at the time it didn't strike me as odd.  The show almost always renders sex as something demeaning, disturbing or just plain peculiar (the contortionist???) , so it didn't exactly take me by surprise that Martin is known for having sex scenes that are the opposite of sexy.  

 

However, I didn't realize that most of it would seem to be on purpose.  Cersei's clinical evaluation of Lady Merryweather contrasted with Sam's self-ridicule (a dude laughing at the sight of his erection is not a common thing) and then all else that followed (including sniffing the clothes and detecting things like...mildew before noting anything that was particularly sexualized) ....I truly don't think the guy is ought to "Dear Penthouse Forum" anything. 

 

On FarScape the gig used to be that the grosser the background action, the more important the emotional revelations were.  It was like the creators were trying to distract people from revealing moments for a character.  Martin seems to be doing something akin to that with sex, and actually as-often-as-not utilizing the same "Ew" to get it in under the radar. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

The contortionist was in there purely for an inside joke. One of the reasons that GRRM gave for taking so long to publish the last two books was a bit of a plotting tangle of trying to figure out the timing of some things that caused him to do several rewrites. This plotting problem was awarded the moniker The Mereenese Knot.

Which, of course, the show turned into a contortionist sex position.

[chandraReborn]

Yeah, the sex scenes are rarely sexy, but I appreciate that about them. It makes them more realistic. If I wanted porn-y stuff, I'd just go watch porn. 

[WindyNights]

Yeah the sex kinda feeds into the characterization of characters. Like Cat's thoughts during and after sex is hoping she gets a child out of this because she's been taught that a lady's duty is to be a baby machine.

[Terra Nova]

I think there's a need for it in the book in that we get a good insight into the kind of person Tyrion is. I wish the show followed the book. It wouldn't have been difficult through a couple of short scenes.

On this I totally agree, and it always amazes me how this particular event is barely discussed at all.

 

And I also wish the show followed the books in this whole Jaime's Prison Break. They made quite bizarre small changes (whose purpouse still escapes me) in the Winterfell arc that spiraled out of control, risulting in the jumbled contrived mess at Robb's encampment. Kinslaying is not that big of a deal but it's not (yet?) a trait that belongs to Jaime, and I would have liked for the show to keep it that way. The other thing that irks me is how occasionally the screenwriters feel the need to spoonfeed the audience into thinking one way or another about some characters, which is something Martin never does (well, there are a couple of things in Jon chapter that work as some sort of moral commentary for other characters, but that's another story). Not even for the train wreck Cersei is offering us.

[Drunken Grumkin]

It does seem very vague exactly what counts as "Kinslaying". It seemed odd that Robb was accused of kinslaying for executing Lord Karstark (admittedly, by the guy himself, so scarcely an impartial judge!)  but even Robert's opponents don't call him a kinslayer (and the Karstarks split off about 1000 years previously - the Baratheons are descended from Orys Baratheon, supposedly bastard offspring of the Targaryens about 300 years back).

 

Forget about Orys -- Robert and Rhaegar are second cousins, both descended from Aegon V.

[ambi76]

There are some doubts in parts of fandom about Loras's fate. Aurane's tale gets more and more gruesome as he sees how pleased Cersei is with it. Although as a Loras fan some conspirancy to have Loras off to do something else entirely would be welcome, I personally think Loras was really horrifically injured* while storming Dragonstone but will not die (yet?). Since his injuries sound rather unsurvivable there might be some exaggeration or magic mumbo-jumbo involved though.

 

*I came to that conclusion when the 2014 ASOIAF calendar featured a scene of Loras storming Dragonstone, plus GRRM's concession that Sandor and Loras are both a variant of his first novel character Bretan Braith, who is also a horrifically burned up homosexual "jedi"-knight.

Edited December 4, 2015 by ambi76

[ambi76]

I still say valonqar will be one of cerseis own children and no one can change my mind

 

Yeah, Tommen killing Cersei in the end makes perfect sense with the five year skip, without it though there is this huge problem of Tommen being nine years old. That will be hard to sell (and I find the Zombie-Tommen theory of fandom just ridiculous).

[Lady S.]

I feel like what he did to Bran is overblown whereas if you bring up that he was going

to kill Arya because Cersei told him to

then that has actual meat.

The Arya thing should no longer be a spoiler if shimpy's gotten past Jaime's visit to Lancel at Darry, which was where he recounted the story. I'd love to hear your take on that, shimpy btw. Personally I found that episode a lot more troubling than the murder of poor Alton. 

 

It does seem very vague exactly what counts as "Kinslaying". It seemed odd that Robb was accused of kinslaying for executing Lord Karstark (admittedly, by the guy himself, so scarcely an impartial judge!)  but even Robert's opponents don't call him a kinslayer (and the Karstarks split off about 1000 years previously - the Baratheons are descended from Orys Baratheon, supposedly bastard offspring of the Targaryens about 300 years back).

I've never thought we were actually meant to take Karstark's accusations seriously, and GRRM has actually said degree of kinship matters with regards to kinslaying. As shimpy pointed out when the topic first came up in Clash, if any shared blood is enough to mean you can't kill someone then most of the nobles in Westeros would be damned. Robert and Rhaegar weren't just related through Orys, they were second cousins through Bob's Targ granny (who Stannis and Aemon talked about). Rhaegar even refers to him as cousin Robert when saying goodbye to Jaime before the Trident, and per the World Book family trees

Aerys and the Starks were also likely related through their Blackwood ancestors

. Jaime and Alton were definitely more distant cousins than Bob and his Targ enemies if Alton was so much lower on the social scale and Jaime had no clue who he even was. Does the fact of their sharing a surname matter more than than their actual familial relationship? Would Karstark have more of a case for kinslaying if his family hadn't added the Kar to the name, even if the kinship was still remote? I think I'd still be rooting for that asshole to lose his head no matter what his name was, just as murdering a loyal knight is still murder no matter what the knight's name was, especially when the kinslaying taboo doesn't even exist in the story where Alton was murdered.

 

Yeah the sex kinda feeds into the characterization of characters. Like Cat's thoughts during and after sex is hoping she gets a child out of this because she's been taught that a lady's duty is to be a baby machine.

We never got her thoughts during the act, only after in her second chapter when "her loins still ached from the urgency of his lovemaking" and "it was a good ache", which I took to mean their sex life had long gone past the dutiful passionless sex of their awkward wedding night. I don't think the fact that she then contemplates the idea of one more son means she saw sex as only about doing her duty, it just meant she was practical about the nature of dynastic marriage and the political importance of sons. Even without another child, Ned still gave her that good, sweet ache in the loins, so I doubt she was too disappointed that their last fuck turned out to be of the wasteful, non-procreating variety. Edited December 4, 2015 by Lady S.

[WindyNights]

@Lady I never said it was only about doing her duty . : p

[Haleth]

That's a good point that the awkwardness of the Sam/Gilly sex scene was, well, if not intentional then it was acurate.  Both of them have a very warped idea of sex.  Poor Sam thinks it's a sin and Gilly only knows the pain of rape at the hands of her father.  They are sweet together and I'd hope for them to find a life together, but what is it they say?  If you think this ends well you haven't been paying attention?

 

On first read I was convinced the story that Loras was badly injured was a ploy to get him out of Cersei's grasp.  The fact he was burned and covered with bandages seemed convenient.  Now?  Not so sure.  Typically he'd ride in to KL with the Tyrell army to rescue his sister, but you never know what Martin has in mind.

 

Ah, Maegi the Frog's prophecy.  Because Cersei can get absolutely nothing right, we can count on the more beautiful queen not being Margaery and the valonquar not being Tyrion.

 

I won't say anything about what it included but the teaser on the PTV homepage for season 6 had an awesome comment from Tara:  Did [Jon Snow] roll under the dumpster?  Ha!

Edited December 4, 2015 by Haleth

[John Potts]

Oh good, we've finally got Maggy's prophecy. Thing is, I keep seeing people claiming it says "Cersei can't die until her kids do" but that isn't what it says. What it does say (of her children) is "Golden their crowns and Golden their shrouds" - so (presumably) they'll all be crowned and get royal burials (quite likely at this point). Maggy then DOESN'T go on to say, "Once all your children are dead, the Volonquar (sp?) will choke the life from you" but "Once all your hope is gone, the Volonquar..." which is not the same thing. Now it's certainly true that seeing all her kids die would represent an Earth shattering blow to Cersei, it's perfectly plausible that she could go to her grave (at the hands of Tyrion? Jamie? A. N. Other?) believing they are doomed, even though they actually survive her (just like I'm sure that Mirri Maz Dur's prediction that Dany's womb "would not quicken" - I think that's how she phrased it - until the sun rises in the West & sets in the East means Dany will have a child at some point, since "The sun" in question could have referred Oberyn and his poisoning of Gregor Clegane made "The Mountain" shake like a leaf).

 

stillshimpy You do realize that will just encourage me to use it more frequently, right?

 

 

Feel free! And every time you mention Big Bird I'll picture an X-rated version of Sesame Street brought to you by the letter "R" - "R is for Royalty. And Rape!" Not to mention the Count going "One! One Ice Zombie! Two! Two Ice Zombies!" (and yes, Wun Wun would be pretty much Mr Snuffleupagus). 

[ambi76]

I also think it's telegraphed that Dany will die in childbirth like her poor mother before her, John Potts.

 

Hells, maybe it's her that gives birth to the "Prince that was promised" that every fucking Targaryen of the last three or so generations thought he was at some point.

 

Le sigh. Maybe a prophecy should only be told when actually relevant.

 

Question is who will be the father. Jon's a bit obvious.

F(Aegon)?

Dothraki #6? Jorah? o.O Daario? :P

Edited December 4, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

chandrareborn, commenting on something isn't the same thing as complaining about it or remarking that it should be different. I observed that the sex scenes are terribly unsexy, not that I wished them to be sexy.  However, I will fully admit that I wish there were fewer of the damned things, considering how off-putting most of them are.   But having said that, since I do think they are usually supposed to be revelatory tools, vs. anything erotic there have been more than a couple of occasions where it did work well as shorthand for characters.   

 

When we meet Cat and Ned , she thinks of him rolling off of her and moving away from her, while she hopes that she's conceived another son for him.  So that was a bunch of "these people are both primarily motivated by doing what they believe their duty is" to cram into  two sentences.  It's not the stuff of sexy-times necessarily, but it's also not the thought process of two people mechanically going through the act either.  They've got four kids.  Duty has been fulfilled, so they're getting it on because they wish to get it on.  That suggests things that are important to the story throughout that first book.  That very trait is going to be the biggest wrench in the machinery.  Great way to shorthand the "no, really these two are all about duty and rule following, but are also motivated by things less dutiful." 

 

We've talked a lot about that scene in the sept in the show vs. the book. Whether Cersei ever gives consent in the book vs. the show.  The show is depicted as a rape, if the showrunner doesn't realize that, he's being sort of willfully blind.  In the book though....well the very first time we meet Jaime and Cersie,via Bran's POV -- she's saying "No" and "stop", I think stop was in there too, but the "no" really caught my attention -- so Cersei's character is disturbing from jump for reasons I don't even need to detail, it establishes that this is a world without a concept of consent from either party.  It's clear that Cersei is supposed to be into it all, but she's saying "no" ....which is something we're all informed enough to know is not a mind-game to be played with anyone.  I heard a really sort of touching NPR segment in which college age young men took a brief course on issues of consent.  Their questions were almost freaking heartbreaking, while being heartening.  Did they need a verbal "yes" before proceeding?  Or was the absence of a "no" the same thing as consent being implied.  Were they supposed to wait for any particular signs?

 

So that lecture hall just doesn't exist in this world.  Not that I would expect it to, but Bran's POV made that clear in the space of eight words.

 

Gilly and Sam are both people who were horribly traumatized by their fathers.   Even the language of the scene was fumbling, tentative, self-critical and reflective of that kind of damage.

 

 

 

The Arya thing should no longer be a spoiler if shimpy's gotten past Jaime's visit to Lancel at Darry, which was where he recounted the story. I'd love to hear your take on that, shimpy btw. Personally I found that episode a lot more troubling than the murder of poor Alton.

 

I have gotten past that part.  So in regards to Jaime thinking that, I was struck that Martin has really gone all-in on "Jaime was addicted to Cersei" ....he'll do anything for his next hit.  He's actually recognizing that.  Post detox (which again, Martin pretty overtly used a near delirium initially in the Brienne bath scene, which was not unlike the ravings of someone in withdrawal) , he's considering who he was and coming up with disturbing answers.  That he would have killed Arya for Cersei did surprise me a little, but I thought what was more important was that it changed the nature of what he's doing right now.  Pre-detox he would have been out there hunting down Sansa, post he sends out Brienne.   What made it frightening when it came to Arya was that Jaime was able to spot that Jeyne Pool was not Arya immediately.   So it's chilling and disturbing, but there's that kind of in-recovery-clarity to his observations of himself that really makes it intriguing.

 

But man, in the show, they threw away -- with both hands -- the opportunity to really sell this aspect of Jaime when they had him murder his cousin.  I actually spent a fair amount of time in the damned book waiting for him to murder the boogers out of Cleos.  It really wasn't until Cleos is killed in a completely "Jaime didn't do that, a horse hoof caved in his skull as he was being dragged" (and as someone who used to ride horses many years ago. the way Cleos dies is horrifying....and also told me that Westerosi saddles are English style, which makes sense too) .  Anyway, Cleos dies at the hoof vs the hand and that was the first indication I had that maybe I'd start to feel a little bit differently about Book Jaime than I did Show Jaime.  

 

The Bran thing: well it's not like there weren't people who had read the books in the original thread, making their case for Jaime.   That's actually part of how it was easy to spot someone who had read the books:  they were reacting to a character that was not on the screen.  I analyze the hell out of things, I'm not too prone to missing a ton and in some memorable instances they were talking about a character who was NOT on my screen.  

 

It's part of why when Jaime kills his cousin on the show, it really pissed me off in ways that went beyond even what was on the show.  There's this young man openly admiring and adoring Jaime.  Seeing him as this wonderful, valiant warrior type.  Everything this man wishes to be.  The best day of his life is squiring for Jaime and it's so clear that Show Jaime doesn't even remember the kid, and that's before strangling him with an excrement covered chain, atop a pile of his poo.  

 

Does it get worse than being murdered by your hero on Defecation Point?  I don't know, but it seems like it would be hard to beat.   When my son was four, he said something to me that was so enormous to me, conveyin just how much responsibility being a parent was in a way that nothing else really did.  It was the age of everyone recently learning about Stranger Danger.   Oprah Winfrey had just had a show about talking to your children about strangers and how they didn't look scary.  So I'm trying to talk to my little kid about what to do if a Stranger (love the use of the Stranger in the seven, for this very reason) tried to take him.  He said, "Mommy, it wouldn't matter if a Stranger tried to get me, you or Daddy would come and get me."  Fuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkk. So that was a moment when the air left the room for a split second and I did manage to answer that we'd really try, we'd always try....and continued with the talk.  Then after he was in bed I walked into a walk-in closet and bawled my eyes out because that's what being someone's hero is, when your break it down. Eventually your kids don't view you as Batman-crossed-with-Hermione-Granger.   

 

But that's how Show Jaime's cousin still viewed him and for reason I just don't entirely get, rather than having an "Oooookay, well that's an overwhelming thing with which to contend in terms of personal responsibility, I will now heroically manage to not lose my personal composure for long enough to make it to the spare comforter in a closet, where I can just cry my eyes out over knowing the world can hurt this person, and I can't stop it entirely" moment, Book Jaime strangles him with a chain covered in what is meant to be his own excrement.   I know they were only initially trying to get to the point of the Red Wedding in the show, but I'm still a little baffled as to why they slammed a door on character growth when it isn't in the source material.  Show Jaime makes his "by what right does the Wolf judge the Lion?" caterwauling, miserable, filthy point in a bathtub (dunk and scrub, dunk and scrub....the filth was distracting as hell!) and it did NOTHING to rehab the character in my eyes, because as luck would have it, I had been hanging out nearby while my son took his nightly bath when the big "you'd save me" thing nearly broke my ability to not humanly dissolve" Stranger conversation went down.   Oprah: she also made sure we were all terrified of so much as a bucket of water.  Oprah sort of sucked, in retrospect, and I did give up on her entirely many years before she went off the air, but that's neither here nor there.   

 

That's going to be a very particular and personal reaction, but I don't think I'm the only person the show cut off from ever seeing Jaime differently for when they had him murder his cousin, hot on the heels of this poor kid revealing that Jaime was his hero.  

 

 

 

Feel free! And every time you mention Big Bird I'll picture an X-rated version of Sesame Street brought to you by the letter "R" - "R is for Royalty. And Rape!" Not to mention the Count going "One! One Ice Zombie! Two! Two Ice Zombies!"

 

Snerk.  Well-played and deftly done, John Potts, I remember you from an age ago when you very patiently explained which episode I was thinking of for a different show (DS9) for the one episode I ever saw (at that time, I would later watch all the later Treks as the first unspoiled person most people had glimpsed in a decade).  If it bugs you, I will stop, but one of the ways I sort of tone down the horror in my head is to add some absurdity into the mix. 

 

ETA2: Sorry I didn't get a chance to clean this up at all, I have a hell of a time catching typos before things are posted, because it's just the way my vision works:  I need a different background than what I've created something in to see it.  My dogs decided, about two minutes before I hit "enter" that they wanted to be walked right then and there are dangers inherent in ignoring a 93 pound dog who is clearly indicating he needs to go. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Constantinople]

Ah, Maegi the Frog's prophecy.  Because Cersei can get absolutely nothing right, we can count on the more beautiful queen not being Margaery and the valonquar not being Tyrion.

I agree, but I still hope Tyrion is the valonqar becuase I think it would be amusing if Cersei got one thing right in her life. But fundamentally, I don't care who the valonqar is so long as Cersei ends up miserable before having the life throttled out of her.

For that matter, I've pretty much stopped concerning myself about the other prophecies as well.

[Delta1212]

Oh good, we've finally got Maggy's prophecy. Thing is, I keep seeing people claiming it says "Cersei can't die until her kids do" but that isn't what it says. What it does say (of her children) is "Golden their crowns and Golden their shrouds" - so (presumably) they'll all be crowned and get royal burials (quite likely at this point). Maggy then DOESN'T go on to say, "Once all your children are dead, the Volonquar (sp?) will choke the life from you" but "Once all your hope is gone, the Volonquar..." which is not the same thing. Now it's certainly true that seeing all her kids die would represent an Earth shattering blow to Cersei, it's perfectly plausible that she could go to her grave (at the hands of Tyrion? Jamie? A. N. Other?) believing they are doomed, even though they actually survive her (just like I'm sure that Mirri Maz Dur's prediction that Dany's womb "would not quicken" - I think that's how she phrased it - until the sun rises in the West & sets in the East means Dany will have a child at some point, since "The sun" in question could have referred Oberyn and his poisoning of Gregor Clegane made "The Mountain" shake like a leaf).

Feel free! And every time you mention Big Bird I'll picture an X-rated version of Sesame Street brought to you by the letter "R" - "R is for Royalty. And Rape!" Not to mention the Count going "One! One Ice Zombie! Two! Two Ice Zombies!" (and yes, Wun Wun would be pretty much Mr Snuffleupagus).

Mirri Maz Durr's taunt being an actual prophecy is one of my favorite specs, although (book 5)

the sun rising in the West and setting in the East is clearly Quentyn, even if we obviously can't talk about that yet.

[Alayne Stone]

So Shimpy, now that you've gotten Cersei's prophesy in its entirety, who do you think the Valonqar will be? We all speculate a great deal more about who the "younger, more beautiful" queen will be as book readers, but this is probably the biggest thing we were all curious about as it never made it into the show for whatever reason.

[WindyNights]

I jusr want to note that Maggy never says it's Cersei's little brother just "the little brother" which could mean anything to the younger, more beautiful queen's little brother to the less likely anyone who is a little brother.

[stillshimpy]

It now makes sense to me that there is speculation about who the younger, more beautiful Queen is.  In the series it seems so obvious that it is Margaery, but it seems far less in the books.  I don't know if Margaery will ever get a POV chapter, but mostly she's seem genuinely confused by a couple of Cersei's attempts to poke her and she clearly has no idea that Cersei views her as a rival.  She's just another woman -- at least seemingly -- being used to the political advantage of her family. 

 

So it's a lot more difficult to believe that this character is some queen of prophesy or destiny.  She's married to a little boy and her mother-in-law seems determined to have her killed for no greater sin than existing. Dany seems the much more likely bet.  I'm assuming that Myrcella isn't going to be a concern for long, because I suppose that she might also be the queen of the vision.  I suppose if Melisandre were to marry Stannis, it could possibly involve Melisandre. 

 

But the mostly likely person is Daenyrs.  As for the valonqar, my first pick would actually be Jaime, but that's now impossible because of the loss of his hand.  It would be sort of fun if the valonqar was actually a woman, but my first pick would actually be Arya after Jaime.  Tyrion just doesn't even enter into it all for me.  It would be almost delightful if it was the Mountain or Qyburn, since Cersei has been handing over women to be horribly disposed of by Qyburn. 

[WSmith84]

You'll notice as well that book Marg gives a lot to Tommen, including, perhaps most importantly, self-confidence. With Marg and the Tyrells, Tommen is being encouraged to do things like: jousting, sitting in on Small Council meetings, listening to petitioners, interacting with the smallfolk and doing the good PR work that the Tyrells seem to excel at. Marg is trying, essentially, to help Tommen develop into a decent knight, man and king. Obviously, a knight, man and king who loves his Tyrell family and might favour them, but decent nonetheless. Cersei, of course, sees Marg's attempts as 'clumsy', even though Marg is doing far more for him than she ever has. So I was disappointed that the show went with the less subtle, more creepy 'give Tommen sex and he loves it' approach.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I think Dany is likely the younger, more beautiful queen, but I hope it is Sansa. As for the Valonqar,

Clegane Bowl! GET HYPE!

It's probably Jaime, though.

Edited December 4, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[magdalene]

The younger queen I think is Sansa. There is poetic justice to it because Sansa suffered abuse from Cersei. I do think the valonquar is Jaime. It might be a sort of mercy killing or a killing once again to protect Kings Landing from another insane ruler.  As for the "technicality" of Jaime being one-handed I  think there is a way he can still be the one who kills Cersei.

[stillshimpy]

I think the Jaime is the most likely, because he was born after Cersei, and more importantly, she'd simply never anticipate it or believe it was happening until it was too late. Plus, Jaime is growing to despise who he was when he was under Cersei's thrall.  It can't be too long before he finds her despicable also. 

 

I don't understand how it could be Sansa though. Unless people believe Sansa will somehow be the Queen of the North? 

 

I agree with you, WSmith, the show went with the most tawdry angle they could vs. the far more nuanced.  It was particularly disappointing because they at least seemed to start down a different road with Margaery and Joffrey.  Where she was seen to encourage the Crown to acts of charity and understood that winning the hearts of the people was essential to keeping the throne in troubled times.  Something that Cersei just truly can't seem to grasp.   Add that to the list, I suppose. 

[Ashara Payne]

Sansa could be queen of Westeros. Nothing would surprise me in this story, including the Others being not evil monsters and Dany sitting the iron throne then dying. Expect the unexpected; if it seems obvious it ain't happening.

[Delta1212]

Sansa could be queen of Westeros. Nothing would surprise me in this story, including the Others being not evil monsters and Dany sitting the iron throne then dying. Expect the unexpected; if it seems obvious it ain't happening.

Except Jon being Lyanna's son. That's definitely happening.

[Alayne Stone]

There's also the question of whether or not prophesies in this series are self-fulfilling. I think at the very least, Cersei's fear of "the beautiful, more younger queen" and the "valonqar" inform on the motives behind her behavior towards both Sansa and Tyrion earlier on in the series. She clearly fears Sansa could be is queen and demeans her accordingly. And she clearly believes Tyrion to be the valonquar which is why she contstantly tries to have him killed. Of course her paranoia just serves to make both of them hate her, so should either fulfil the prophesy it was by her own doing in the end.

 

As of right now I'm inclined to believe Daenerys is the younger queen and Jaime is the valonqar as well. It doesn't matter to me that the word specifies "the younger brother." Naratively speaking it just makes the most sense if it's Jaime.

 

I would love it to come full circle and be Sansa in the end too, but that's my personal bias speaking.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[John Potts]

I've always assumed (and yes, making an ass of u & me) that the YMBQ was Dany. Though I'm almost hoping it actually IS Margery, because it'd be nice to have Cersei be right for once (for the novelty value, if nothing else)! There'd be a certain poetic justice to it if it turns out to be Sansa, though I can't quite see it.

 

It does seem as if Cersei is just going nuts thinking about her nemesis to the extent of actually bringing about her own demise. Even if she doesn't care about her own children (which I believe she does - if only for purely narcissistic reasons), she must realise that unless Tommen learns to rule, his reign is going to be short (OK, prophecy implies it WILL be short, but Cersei has no problem defying fate when SHE'S at its mercy). It really does seem like she's had a complete mental breakdown by this point (probably not entirely unrelated to the amount of alcohol she's drinking)

 

stillshimpy  I remember you from an age ago when you very patiently explained which episode I was thinking of for a different show (DS9) for the one episode I ever saw.

 

 

Well I can't say I remember that precisely, but that certainly sounds like me - patiently imparting knowledge to the

uninitiated. Or acting like a pretentious know-it-all, depending on your viewpoint! Though you might be interested to know I've recently submitted an episode of DS9 for Canon consideration ("In the Pale Moonlight"), which may appear in an upcoming EHG episode.

 

But no, it doesn't bother me in the least if you want to keep referring to the High Sparrow as "Big Bird" - it'll just put rather discordant images into my brain. But it's used to that.

 

And since this post is half off topic anyway, how did the move go? Are the dogs settling in OK?

[Mya Stone]

Technically, Sansa COULD be Queen of the North when all is said and done...right? ;)

[Constantinople]

Someone sharper eyed than I once pointed out that the YMB need not be a YMBQ, only "another". Whether that's another queen or just someone other than Cersei, time (may) will tell.

With that in mind, Cersei is older than many if not most of the remaining characters. If MB refers to "inner beauty" than the YMB could be just about anyone. Even if the MB is physical, the list could get quite large as stress and increased alcohol consumption take its toll (or if Cersei picked-up an STD).

As for the valonqar, there may be significance to the fact that Maggy didn't just say "little brother" in the Common Tongue. Or there may not be any significance to it. Perhaps Maggy was just being a pretentious git.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Constantinople

[bobbybuilderton]

I have posted this elsewhere before, but the reason I think the valonqar thing has to do with Cersei's own children is because of the structure of the prophecy. Every time Cersei asks a question, the woman answers but with a caveat directly relating to the original question.

 

Q:When will I wed the prince?
A:Never.[iI] You will wed the king.[iII]

 

I:question
II:answer (no)
III:Additional info relating to original question (but you'll marry the king)

 

Q:I will be queen, though?
A: Aye...Queen you shall be[iI]... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.[iII]

again, 

 

I:question
II:answer (yes)
III:Additional info relating directly to the original question (but someone else will come and take everything away)

 

Now skipping the valonqar question, let's look at Melara's question

 

Q:Will I marry Jaime?
A:"Not Jaime, nor any other man,” said Maggy.[iI] “Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close.[iII]

 

I:question
II:answer (no)
III:Additional info relating directly to the original question (in fact, you won't be marrying anyone and

the woman Jaime wants to marry will kill you

)

 

I skipped Cersei's question to establish the pattern of question and answer. Now let's look at it.

Q:Will the king and I have children?
A:"Oh, aye.[iI] Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. . . Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said.“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”[iII]

IF this question follows the previous pattern (and I have no reason to assume it will, except that I believe GRRM is a good writer), then part III HAS to be information that relates directly to the original question. Which was about her children. It didn't have a damn thing to do with Cersei's family. Every other question that was asked, when information was given that went beyond what was required (yes or no answers), it was directly related to the question that was asked. It makes no sense to break this pattern and suddenly tell Cersei "oh by the way, on top of that, your brother is gonna kill you when this is all done with."

 

So you might be thinking, ' Well, looking at Melara's question/answer/info pattern, it seems as if the information that she's given is utterly unrelated to the original question. What does her death have to do with marrying Jaime?' To that, I say, the answer can be read as "you won't marry Jaime, because you won't marry anyone. you'll be too busy being dead

by someone else Jaime wants

." It is very difficult to read the answer to Cersei's question in a way that ties all parts back to the original question. What does her brother killing her have to do with if she'll have children or not? The last part of the answer has NO relevance to the question Cersei asked. Why break the pattern and suddenly volunteer the information of how she'll die, if that death has no relation to her children? Maggy didn't say the valonqar will crown them, or kill them, or have anything to do with her children whatsoever. I think I'm starting to repeat myself, so I'll just finish with the fact that this interpretation also makes it clearer why she says THE valonqar, rather than YOUR valonqar. It's also possible that it means the king's younger brother (Stannis), but I doubt that. Although the show did have Stannis strangling Melisandre for some reason... Would probably make more sense than Tommen strangling her though LOL

 

edited in spoiler tags. they're safe once you've read the cersei chapter immediately following the full prophecy

Edited December 5, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Dev F]

I don't know if Margaery will ever get a POV chapter, but mostly she's seem genuinely confused by a couple of Cersei's attempts to poke her and she clearly has no idea that Cersei views her as a rival.  She's just another woman -- at least seemingly -- being used to the political advantage of her family. 

 

I've long had the sense that book!Margaery was more shrewd than she was letting on. What convinced me was the fact that at Tyrion's trial, Loras makes a big deal of the fact that Joffrey and Margaery were drinking out of the same chalice, and thus anyone who poisoned the king must also want Margaery dead. It's a clever way of assuaging any suspicions that the Tyrells were involved, because why would they ever risk poisoning one of their own? And it seems to me that the only way their plan makes sense is if Margaery knew not to drink out of the cup once it had been strangler-fied.

 

Interestingly, the show seems to go out of its way to alter the associated circumstances so that Margaery can remain unawares until her grandmother's confession in the subsequent episode. Whereas the book actually highlights the fact that husbands and wives tend to drink out of the same cup (Catelyn takes it as a touching sign of the affection between her brother and Roslin Frey, and the unhappily married Tyrion watches enviously as another couple feed each other and share the same drink), the show makes a point of dividing the cups at Joffrey's wedding banquet into metal goblets for the men and glassware for the women -- presumably to suggest that there's some separate-but-equal goblet custom that would prevent Margaery from drinking from her husband's man-cup even though she didn't know it was poisoned.

 

Bobbybuilderton, I like your read of the maegi's prophecy. It always bugs me when writers try to concoct some surprise twist for a prophetic warning that takes every line out of context and assumes that every word is so ambiguous that it can mean essentially anything. I'm hoping that Martin is instead going for something like what you suggest -- an interpretation that is more logical and coherent than the conclusions Cersei immediately jumps to, rather than less coherent. It seems to me that the fitting reproof of Cersei's hubris is "She should have known what the prophecy meant, but she let her paranoia and hubris lead her astray," rather than "She was foolish to think she could understand the prophecy by parsing its words rationally; she should've known the explanation would be something random and inexplicable."

Edited December 5, 2015 by Dev F

[Terra Nova]

Bobby, edit that part regarding Melara, Shimpy hasn't yet read the comment about

how she screamed in the well, which implies Cersei was there to hear her dying

 

As for the pattern that is supposedly broken, a nice breakdown of the House of the Undying at Race for the Iron Throne shows actually that the pattern of three is always subverted. This may or may not be the case for Maggy's prophecy, though.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ambi76]

Well, I'm a long time hater of the idea that Jaime is the valonqar, so I really hope it's a double bluff and Tyrion and Marg it is. I have some hope, since GRRM said that people really are overthinking this prophecy and called it self-fullfilling more than once.

If it's Loras that kills her like some fake-or-not-spoiler for season 6 suggested, I will be satisfied too.

Hell, I would take anybody over Jaime as the valonqar, really, even Hot Pie. I'm not particulary concerend with who the "other (queen)" is to be honest. They key to her identity is probably who will be king in the end anyways.

Edited December 5, 2015 by ambi76

[WindyNights]

I still think the valonquar is Bran and the YMBQ is Sansa. Rather than it being Cersei's little brother it's the YMBQ's little brother.

He'll warg warg Mountainstein and choke Cersei. Well that's my prediction.

Edited December 5, 2015 by WindyNights

[Haleth]

I could see Martin writing that the instrument for Cersei's death is Jaime's golden hand.

[SeanC]

Bobbybuilderton, I like your read of the maegi's prophecy. It always bugs me when writers try to concoct some surprise twist for a prophetic warning that takes every line out of context and assumes that every word is so ambiguous that it can mean essentially anything. I'm hoping that Martin is instead going for something like what you suggest -- an interpretation that is more logical and coherent than the conclusions Cersei immediately jumps to, rather than less coherent. It seems to me that the fitting reproof of Cersei's hubris is "She should have known what the prophecy meant, but she let her paranoia and hubris lead her astray," rather than "She was foolish to think she could understand the prophecy by parsing its words rationally; she should've known the explanation would be something random and inexplicable."

Yeah, to me, any answer other than Jaime (or, I guess, Tyrion, if you're going with the "self-fulfilling prophecy" route) sacrifices any meaningful basis in character in favour of a cheap shock.  Prophetic misinterpretation should tell you something about the person.

 

That she she was told that "the younger brother" would kill her and she immediately and unhesitatingly assumed it was Tyrion, even though Jaime equally fits that description, tells you something about Cersei, both who she loves and who she's predisposed to hate.  And, moreover, Jaime being the one to kill her is meaningful, the ultimate twist in their relationship.  She dies at the hand of the one person she could never see as an enemy.

 

None of the alternatives are anywhere near that meaningful, and most are so random or so unpredictable that it doesn't tell you anything about Cersei that she didn't see them coming.  Stannis or Arya, to name two, are people Cersei already considers her enemies (to the extent that she's aware of Arya), just not people she's tagged as the prophesied figure.  And then you have suggestions like "wight Tommen", which are so out-of-nowhere that no sane person would ever anticipate that.

[bobbybuilderton]

I don't think it'd be cheap shock. I think it'd be in keeping with George's unreliable narrator tendencies. We are inclined to think it has something to do with Cersei's brother because Cersei thinks it has something to do with her brother. So starting from that point that the author kind of nudges you towards, it's natural to go "oh man that'd be so thematically significant!" and get so caught up in how poetic justice it would be that we don't examine what was actually said. I think that even the short little break where we see Cersei's thoughts about the number of children was meant to distract us from the last part of what Maggy says being still part of the question about her children.

[Lady S.]

I think the Jaime is the most likely, because he was born after Cersei, and more importantly, she'd simply never anticipate it or believe it was happening until it was too late. Plus, Jaime is growing to despise who he was when he was under Cersei's thrall.  It can't be too long before he finds her despicable also.

Also, as far as the one-handed thing, Jaime has a golden hand which would parallel Tyrion choking his lover with a chain of golden hands. But then I'm one who doesn't think Jaime's redemption arc will end in true redemption, so I guess I'm biased. The wight Tommen theory is interesting, but also feels too outlandish, and I don't think the Others will make it that far South.

 

Technically, Sansa COULD be Queen of the North when all is said and done...right? ;)

Right, she could if Bran never came home and if something were to happen to feral little Rickon. Being Rickon's regent wouldn't give her the title of Queen.

I've long had the sense that book!Margaery was more shrewd than she was letting on. What convinced me was the fact that at Tyrion's trial, Loras makes a big deal of the fact that Joffrey and Margaery were drinking out of the same chalice, and thus anyone who poisoned the king must also want Margaery dead. It's a clever way of assuaging any suspicions that the Tyrells were involved, because why would they ever risk poisoning one of their own? And it seems to me that the only way their plan makes sense is if Margaery knew not to drink out of the cup once it had been strangler-fied.

Oh, yeah, book-Marg was definitely in on the Purple Wedding, and she befriended Sansa as part of the scheme for her claim to Winterfell. She's not actively plotting to get rid of Cersei the way show-Marg wanted, but there are clues that she's clever in her own right like her grandma. One of my favorite parts of Cersei's PoV is when Cersei tells Tommen he can train with someone other than Loras to become a great jouster like his father, Marg catches that Jaime must be the father referred to and points out that Robert wasn't known for winning jousting championships, to which Cersei comes with her most obvious lie about Robert beating Rhaegar at the "Trident Tournament" and crowning her his Queen of Love and Beauty. I'm sure Marg also knew why Osney Kettleblack started hanging around her.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Lady S.

[bobbybuilderton]

Lol

when shimpy said "Unless people believe Sansa will somehow be the Queen of the North"....I had to do a double take. Forgot you don't find out Littlefinger's plan for her until nearly the end of this book

[nksarmi]

At first, I thought Jamie, but since coming here, I think the possibility of wight Tommen is definitely there (I think people assume wight Tommen because alive Tommen would never do that to his mother). But I don't think it's anything other than one of these two options.

 

The YMB(Q) has more possibilities - I always thought Dany in the books, but on the show I thought Marg and it was self-fulfilling. 

[Drunken Grumkin]

Yeah, to me, any answer other than Jaime (or, I guess, Tyrion, if you're going with the "self-fulfilling prophecy" route) sacrifices any meaningful basis in character in favour of a cheap shock.  Prophetic misinterpretation should tell you something about the person.

 

That she she was told that "the younger brother" would kill her and she immediately and unhesitatingly assumed it was Tyrion, even though Jaime equally fits that description, tells you something about Cersei, both who she loves and who she's predisposed to hate.  And, moreover, Jaime being the one to kill her is meaningful, the ultimate twist in their relationship.  She dies at the hand of the one person she could never see as an enemy.

 

None of the alternatives are anywhere near that meaningful, and most are so random or so unpredictable that it doesn't tell you anything about Cersei that she didn't see them coming.  Stannis or Arya, to name two, are people Cersei already considers her enemies (to the extent that she's aware of Arya), just not people she's tagged as the prophesied figure.  And then you have suggestions like "wight Tommen", which are so out-of-nowhere that no sane person would ever anticipate that.

 

It does tell us something about Cersei -- that she never considered it could be anyone other than Tyrion, and never reconsidered it later in life when she accumulated more enemies.  Stannis, Arya, etc. weren't enemies when she first heard the prophecy.  Wight Tommen may not be the most likely fulfillment, and may not be as satisfying as Jaime doing the deed (though her children also qualify as people she could never see as an enemy or even as a problem that warrants correcting, even when they're as monstrous as Joffrey)  -- but it's only out-of-nowhere if you're not aware of (or don't believe in) the epidemic of wights that probably will be moving south at some point.  All the rest of that part of Maggy's prophecy is about Cersei and Robert's (separate) children, so it's reasonable that this would be as well.

[SeanC]

It does tell us something about Cersei -- that she never considered it could be anyone other than Tyrion, and never reconsidered it later in life when she accumulated more enemies.  Stannis, Arya, etc. weren't enemies when she first heard the prophecy.  

I'd call that pretty slim.  Plus, if you expand the reach of the quote to encompass any younger brother (and Arya requires you to ignore gender, too), it becomes such a broad category as to be all but meaningless.  It's far more potent if the set in question was already known to Cersei as a kid (Jaime + Tyrion) and she settled unthinkingly on one of them.

 

Wight Tommen may not be the most likely fulfillment, and may not be as satisfying as Jaime doing the deed (though her children also qualify as people she could never see as an enemy or even as a problem that warrants correcting, even when they're as monstrous as Joffrey)  -- but it's only out-of-nowhere if you're not aware of (or don't believe in) the epidemic of wights that probably will be moving south at some point.

 

 

As with above, the child Cersei had no possible reason to think about an epidemic of wights (nor has the adult Cersei to date, really).

Edited December 5, 2015 by SeanC

[stillshimpy]

I'm just going to go Full Metal Off-Topic for a bit, simply because I've been mulling something since I woke up about the books, the plot, etc. and after reading posts here -- Thank you, WindyNights, in scrolling up I saw your request for an edit and was just able to skim past anything (I'll revisit it later today) in the OP's post -- well, now I've got something additionally on my mind about something that's been sort of plaguing my thought process about Martin's choices in characterization vs. the show (nothing bad, by the way, not a criticism).  

 

Anyway, thank you, John Potts, I'd hate to lose Big Bird.  I think everyone likes their pet names for characters, but that one softens someone who made FURIOUS on the show.  Just furious (the stuff with Loras).  

 

 

 

And since this post is half off topic anyway, how did the move go? Are the dogs settling in OK?

 

I will be here by myself for a bit, we just drove my husband to California over Thanksgiving and I'm back in MO getting ready to sell the house after the start of the year.  The dogs are being spoiled, as a way of compensating for missing their Dog Dad (yes, we are those people).   Had a great comment about them:  "You have beautiful dogs!  I just love character dogs!" on their walk this morning.  I guess that must be the new, kindly terminology for Big Mutt and Little Mutt.  Character Dogs.  Awesome.  

 

But we spent Thanksgiving in a Native American Casino in Arizona -- it was the only place with a restaurant on our massive road trip that was open and had a Vegetarian option, it was a Steakhouse, because apparently we decided to dineo on irony on multiple levels -- so on the "let the wronging of indigenous people begin" day, we went and contributed to the coffers of "now the indigenous people get a little bit of dough in return for stuff like terrible blankets".  

 

And I'm having a banner twenty four hours, having set off my alarm yesterday morning as my opening bid, and temporarily locking myself out of the house at 10:30 at night on the dogs last potty break.  Thank goodness I keep a lockbox and could braille it out in the dark. 

 

So....it's going swimmingly! If you don't mind a little incidental drowning. 

 

Back to the book in my next post, I swear, but thank you for asking :-) 

Edited December 5, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DigitalCount]

As with above, the child Cersei had no possible reason to think about an epidemic of wights (nor has the adult Cersei to date, really).

Child Cersei also thought that she'd marry Rhaegar after Aerys died, and that a valonqar was an evil monster. I don't think "facts in evidence at the time of the testimony" is really relevant at all.

 

Furthermore, this reading ignores the context of the story. The first "on-screen" death in ASoIaF is a man being choked to death by a wight, and bobbyb has run down the reasons why literally anyone other than Tommen is a non sequitur. There is no factual basis to call this "out of nowhere." We're continually being told that the game of pointy chairs is hardly important in the grand scheme, when the dead of winter (in every sense of the phrase) is about to set in. Wights are frequently described as being frighteningly strong. Disqualifying Tommen on the basis of likely death seems very short-sighted in the same way that the characters are being short-sighted.

 

I guess if someone had told Merrett Frey a prophecy that he would be hanged by the mother of a crowned wolf, then it would have been dumb to believe that Catelyn would kill him after she was killed, right? After all, dead is dead, and it's ridiculous to think that in a series featuring characters coming back to life and choking people, a character would come back to life and choke someone.

Edited December 5, 2015 by DigitalCount

[SeanC]

I guess if someone had told Merrett Frey a prophecy that he would be hanged by the mother of a crowned wolf, then it would have been dumb to believe that Catelyn would kill him after she was killed, right? 

Sure, but we didn't get a story about somebody telling Merrett Frey that.  We got a prophecy that has everything to do with the tangled Lannister family dynamic, and the overarching stories of those siblings has been about the family's gradual unwinding.  While it's true that some of the other figures were unknown to the child Cersei, none of those are really comparable to the valonqar, because they didn't/aren't governing her actions in the same way.

 

And I think the omission of the valonqar prophecy from the show is very telling in that regard.  The writers of the show are far more interested in surprising the audience than GRRM is, and I think the reason it's not in there is because the obvious answer is the correct one.

[Terra Nova]

We're continually being told that the game of pointy chairs is hardly important in the grand scheme, when the dead of winter (in every sense of the phrase) is about to set in. 

While this is certainly true, it doesn't automatically mean that the culmination of all characters' arcs will be the war against the Other. King's Landing seems so removed from the 'magical' aspect of the story, that I don't see how the wight invasion may be a fitting end for that scenario; I myself believe it will end in fire, since we know of secret stashes of wildfire during the last days of Aerys II and never retrieved, we have the disquieting parallels in Jaime's mind between Aerys and Cersei enraptured in the burning of the Tower of the Hand, (book 5 spoiler)

Daenerys going full Targ who will probably torch King's Landing with dragonfire and nuke it when the flames reach the wildfire

. Nah, I think KL's end will be much more mundane. 

 

Same applies for characters: Westeros is big enough that some of our POVs will live and die without giving a thought about Ice Zombonies coming from the north. Also, it would kinda be a failure, from a narrative point of view, that all the plots just get steamrolled when the invasion takes place. It's something that would  happen in real life, but it would be a disservice to Cersei's arc.

 

That's why I don't think the younger queen is Daenerys, she has no connection at all with Cersei. Either is Sansa, the girl she abused and underestimated, or Marg, a slightly brighter than average teen Cersei antagonized since day one (and in both cases, a self-fulfilling prophecy).

[John Potts]

I can't see Zombie!Tommen as the Valonquar either for entirely plot reasons: In war, you generally don't move your King into the most dangerous point, particularly not when he's a boy King, nor is Cersei the type to run towards danger. If the Others have make it through the Wall, Tommen is unlikely to be charging toward them (although I guess Stannis might) and if Cersei hears of an invasion of the Walking Dead, she's more likely to run further South than towards them. I suppose it's possible that Westeros (and the whole planet) is just completely screwed and EVERYONE is going to be zombified, but then the prophecy is rather redundant: all it says is "The World will end - and you'll die with it" which most people would probably assume would happen anyway. If it IS to be Tommen, I'd rather he kills Cersei because Margery (or somebody else) has turned him against his mother (though in that case, it seems highly doubtful he'd be "Wrapping his hands around her throat", but getting somebody else to do it, though it could happen, I suppose). It would also fulfil the "When all your hope has gone" part, because it really would be an end to Cersei's dreams of ruling through her children.

 

But for my money, I'm still going with Danerys (as the YMBQ) and Tyrion (as the Valonquar).

[glowbug]

I guess I'm in the minority but I want the valonqar to be Jamie, though I hope it happens as part of his redemption arc. I don't mind some of the prophecies being more straightforward to balance out the more crazy ones. If it does turn out to be Jamie then it's a minor misdirection (Tyrion is the most obvious choice) but not much of one.

 

If Martin does go with one of the more convoluted answers then I prefer Tommen or Wright Tommen to any of the others. I see the argument for Tommen as bobbybuilderton laid it out. If it could be any little brother, even one only marginally connected to Cersei like Bran or Stannis, I would consider that a cheap trick because there would be no way to predict who it was before he actually kills Cersei. Anyone that arrives at the right conclusion will be guessing because it could literally be any male character with an older sibling. I prefer for there to be enough clues in the text to figure out the answer before it's revealed for any riddle or mystery in any novel.

 

While reading I just assumed Dany was going to be the YMBQ but if Martin's quote about it being a self fulfilling is true then it's probably not. Margery makes the most sense if that turns out to be the case. Also, Dany seems so far removed from Cercei's story, and it's hard to see how the two can come together in time.

Not only will she have to deal with fAegon,

certainly Dany will be part of the Northern storyline at some point because why have dragons and Others in a story if they're not going to collide, and it would be a waste to have her nephew and closest living relative chilling (literally and figuratively) in the North and not have them have some significant interaction.