Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so I just read Tyrion's most recent chapter, where he's informed that he'll marry Sansa (and is decidedly less "No!" about it than in the show which bodes ill for Sansa) , they make Tyrion the Master of the Coin and Tywin discusses Robb Stark marrying Jeyne Westerling.  I have to say, nothing in that chapter dissuaded me from thinking that Tywin had a hand in all of that. Tyrion even observes that Tywin doesn't seem as displead/angry as he, Tyrion, expected him to be.  

 

I guess it could because he's already figured out how to bring about an end to Robb Stark, via Frey but he practically tells Tyrion he's a fool and that Westerling did this at his command.  Tryion: :Could the Westerlings be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"  Tywin (apparently nearly giving a heart-stopper of a smile) replies, "The greatest fools are oftettimes more clever than the men who laugh at them".  

 

So at a bare minimum Westerling immediately told Tywin that they'd made Robb Stark vulnerable by getting him to break his alliance with Frey, but it sounds like it's also possible that they checked with Tywin before they did anything (what with the whole legend of what happens to the sucker who incur Tywin Lannister's wrath).  

 

Clearly you guys are going to know what is to follow that makes it seem like Tywin simply took advantage of a fait accompli rather than being in on it at the "before anything was enacted, Tywin was consulted" , so I'll wait and see, but when I read that my reaction really was "Oh holy shit, poor Robb really walked into that one".  

 

ETA:  Oh jeez, I'm into some difficult chapters now.  Jeyne does seem nice and as if she cares about Robb, so I assume she didn't know they were both being set up? 

 

Every time poor Catelyn thinks, "I did this, it was me. I caused this" I can't help but think, "Well, yes.  Pretty much, you did" but that doesn't keep it from being painful to read, knowing she's going to die and before that she'll just get to steep in the knowledge of the complete ruin of her world, through so many of her own actions.  

 

You know how both Ned and Catelyn were given a moment where they both sort of -- if not absolved, at least considered Jaime and Cersei Lannister's motivation in trying to understand the attempt to murder Bran -- and both had that ill-fitting "For the sake of my own children, would I not have done the same?"  

 

Catelyn is perpetually punished because of the actions she undertakes when it comes to her children.  She takes Tyrion captive, etc. etc. etc.  Cue the Chaos, War, Death and Deceit machine and it suddenly occurred to me "Oh shit, is she going to have to learn that they married Sansa off to Tyrion before she dies?"  I know she's a hotly debated and polarizing figure in fandom, but holy crap, I can't help but feel sorry for the woman. 

 

She's like some trippy version of Casandra, except rather than known the truth, but be cursed with being disbelieved....she just keeps trying to do what she was taught was the right thing for her duty to all; starting with, but in no way limited to, telling Ned he had to take on being The Hand. 

 

It's got to be at least a little bit of a relief when the poor thing actually dies.  She's really the embodiment of the Road to Hell being paved by good intentions or at least ones justified by trying to do what is "right".  

Edited September 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Crossbow]

I totally missed all that. I'm fairly sure it was never stated outright that Tywin had anything to do with it. But then I seem to have missed like 90% of the subtext in these books.

[Triskan]

Shimpy under no circumstances read that spoiler ! :)

 

Sorry guys, but I must share my sad, cynical and excited laugh at shimpy's last lines about Cat ! ^^

 

Anyway, I'm always astonished at your take on the story ! You really get into the details and your analysis are always insightful ! 

 

You notice, point out and remark stuff that I sometimes never considered until my second reading of the books or until I was on the forums for some of them ! ^^

Edited September 21, 2015 by Triskan

[jellyroll2]

Triskan, that spoiler? I did the exact same thing lol

[WindyNights]

Oh, I'm absolutely aware of that Which Tyler, but I thought you guys were saying that there are people in a fandom organized around these books that still debate "Renly was not gay and neither was Loras". On a first read through, my god, there'd be no way to keep all this stuff straight, but fandoms are generally formed around people discussing tiny details over and over again. I've been part of them, you've been part of ones too.

I'm not saying, "Pffft. How did anyone miss that?" because GOOD GAWD....there'd be no way to keep most of this stuff straight. By the time someone has completed multiple re-reads? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about in the "How in the world does anyone still argue that?"

So I'm absolutely not saying that people should have picked up on it, just that there's no way to keep arguing it after evidence starts to mount and y'all talked about it, presumably for years before the books ever hit the screens. I'm saying, "Seriously? You guys had a decade to parse this out, didn't you? Anyone still arguing that is entrenched in some big denial of actual text ....that they've likely read a dozen times if it means enough to them to argue against it."

I have a giant advantage in all of this even beyond the "you've seen the series already" of it all. Almost every shocking-as-hell twist that had to really send people reeling and into "What the hell just happened? I feel like I have a closed head injury. What the fuckity fuck?" is stuff I already know. So not only do I go into this with foreknowledge, I got into it with Anti-Reeling-From-Shocking-Developments insulation.

First off here's how you do spoiler tags if you just want to do it by hand. I'll remove a space between the bracket and the word spoiler [ spoiler] whatever text you want to spoiler tag [ / spoiler] <--- remove all added spaces and type.

Secondly, Stannis asked Davos to row Melisandre to the shores to kill off Penrose and seemed to be pretty aware that something of a "this will disturb the shit out of you, my long time, short-fingered friend....but I am counting upon your loyalty to me to get the dastardly deed done."

ETA:

Yeah, I can understand the urge to "Okay, let's get this cleared up once and for all, shall we?" in season one with the Blowjob that Broke The Foley Artists Sound Generator, since apparently there was still debate despite the material having been around for close ....kind of a long time beforehand.

But then they veered into "What in the hell are you doing, Show?" territory when -- among other things -- they had Loras talking about having dreamed of his wedding in the manner that made Sansa look foolish and openly invited the audience to laugh at her.

In the book, one of the saddest things to know, reading that chapter about the dresses is Sansa telling herself that hopefully Willas will love her even if the match is just for lands and that it didn't matter that he was lame. That's one of the few times that foreknowledge has made it actually sting more.

On a first time read through that must have almost felt like a nice chapter. "Aw, that's sweet, and more mature...." and guys I know I've told you that my BIL filled me on Tyrion's nose. It was the one thing I was walking around knowing that I just shouldn't have, but I hadn't explained how that happened. In the show Sansa and Tyrion were already married and my BIL was saying that I really needed to read the books to get a grasp on how awful so much of this all was. "Tyrion's missing half his nose, they really practically marry her off to someone who practically has to look like a monster to her."

So I read that chapter and felt so incredibly sorry for her. Not because looks are all that screamingly important, but because the poor kid had experienced enough growth to realize that on some level and the story was still getting set to kick her in the stomach with more "Have some more shattered dreams."

I'll have to big quote a really good ASOIAF essay writer here:

However, I do not believe that Stannis engaged in the ritual with the conscious intent to kill Renly, nor do I believe that Melisandre told him the true purpose of said ritual. Stannis tells us this directly:

For a long time the king did not speak. Then, very softly, he said, “I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly’s dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood.” Stannis looked down at his hands. “I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.”

For those who are skeptical of Stannis’ protestations, we might call this being in denial, but I don’t think there’s a strong argument for Stannis consciously lying to Davos – if that was what he was after, why not just stop with “I was still abed when he died“? Why go into the dream? And while we’re at it, Stannis isn’t really the type of person who would feel the need to lie about killing a traitor to a bannerman.

When viewed in context, I think we should take him at his word – that Stannis subconsciously experienced the assassination of Renly but did not order it. Earlier in the same chapter, when the parlay is debating whether Brienne killed Renly, Stannis cuts across the argument by saying “the Lord of Light willed that my brother die for his treason.” For all that Stannis might not be the most fervent R’hllorite, he clearly has come to believe in Melisandre’s prophecies:

“Ser Cortnay will be dead within the day. Melisandre has seen it in the flames of the future…Her flames do not lie. She saw Renly’s doom as well. On Dragonstone she saw it, and told Selyse. Lord Velaryon and your friend Salladhor Saan would have had me sail against Joffrey, but Melisandre told me that if I went to Storm’s End, I would win the best part of my brother’s power, and she was right.”

To me, the fact that Stannis believes Melisandre’s prophecies that both men would die is persuasive evidence that Stannis viewed Renly’s death as fated to happen, and therefore not requiring his intervention to come to pass; this is backed up by the consistency of his attitude toward the deaths of Renly and Penrose. Equally importantly, if we compare his reporting of Melisandre’s predictions to what we saw from Maester Cressen’s perspective, it seems quite clear that Melisandre is not telling Stannis “if you go here, I can summon a shadow-assassin,” but rather attributing her own actions to the hand of R’hllor, which further explains Stannis’ beliefs (more of this in a bit). This last part is especially important, when we consider the context of Stannis’ orders later.

----later:

As I’ve discussed above, I think there’s a strong case that Stannis didn’t order Renly’s death. On the other hand, how do we interpret Stannis’ order to Davos to escort Melisandre under the walls of Storm’s End?

“I do not require your understanding. Only your service….”

“What would you have me do?”

“Nothing you have not done before. Only land a boat beneath the castle, unseen, in the black of night. Can you do that?”

Arguably, this is the best evidence that he was responsible. After all, if Stannis is giving an order that makes deliberate use of a shadow-assassin, then he must know about them, and given that Renly’s death was only two weeks prior to this chapter, so Occam’s Razor would suggest that the same was true in that case. However, this conclusion gets more complicates when we consider these scene in light of what we discussed above – namely Stannis’ intent and Melisandre’s forthcomingness. As I’ve shown above, Stannis believes that both deaths were inevitable – indeed, there’s twice as much evidence that Stannis felt that ordering a death was unnecessary as there is that he ever gave any order of any kind.

More importantly, this theory of the crime requires Melisandre to have been totally forthcoming with Stannis about her magic. Not only is this completely contrary to her behavior in the Prologue, with Davos in this chapter, as well as in ASOS and ADWD, but it makes little sense from her perspective. Coming to Stannis with the proposal is a huge risk – not only is it quite likely that someone like Stannis would recoil at the thought of kinslaying, but her argument would undercut her attempts to establish herself as a prophetess. Here’s what I think happened: we know that Melisandre predicted Renly’s death and that “Melisandre told me that if I went to Storm’s End, I would win the best part of my brother’s power,” and that she told him that “I must have the boy,” but not yet why. She then passes off her primal rituals (sleeping with Stannis both times and her travel underneath Storm’s End) as a holy rite meant to garner R’hllor’s favor (which is absolutely in keeping with her modus operandi) and kills both men, while passing it off as the actions of her god (which advances her agenda).

Now, I would say that Stannis probably harbors some suspicions – he’s an intelligent man, capable of putting two and two together – but consciously he doesn’t know or perhaps doesn’t want to know. Indeed, for someone with Stannis’ ends-centric philosophy and his attitudes to Melisandre, he might well have not cared. Melisandre is a woman with power, who can work magic and see the future – if she says that she needs to be underneath the walls of Storm’s End to speak to R’hllor, why should he care whether she’s actually talking to god or is a powerful magus? The castle falls either way.

- Race For The Iron Throne

[stillshimpy]

For those who are skeptical of Stannis’ protestations, we might call this being in denial, but I don’t think there’s a strong argument for Stannis consciously lying to Davos – if that was what he was after, why not just stop with “I was still abed when he died“? Why go into the dream? And while we’re at it, Stannis isn’t really the type of person who would feel the need to lie about killing a traitor to a bannerman.

I don't agree with that. Apparently he was convinced to leave Melisandre behind because if he won the Blackwater, people would attribute it to sorcery, and he didn't want that.  Stannis was always aware that she was practicing sorcery.  

 

 

 

I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.

 

I think it's possible that Stannis was actually bewitched, but he can't have been unaware that Melisandre was using sorcery of some kind.  Seeing things in flames, talking about seeing Renly's blood and how he was still abed.  I think he's likely not imaginative enough to think of things like spirit-walking, but then again, he believes in Melisandre's ability to see the future in the flames. 

 

He also knows he is asking Davos to do something that will upset him and that he'd rather not participate in and he calls upon his loyalty to ask that of him. 

 

So yeah, I don't think there's hardcore evidence that Stannis without a doubt knew, but I do think that if he didn't he was embracing some very convenient denial based in not wanting to know what he suspected to be the case.  He knew that Melisandre needed to be rowed to shore to bring about Penrose's death.  In the Show, of course, they have it that Stannis knows, so that could be influencing my take on it. 

 

Some of this stuff is so bizarre though.  The White Dwarf Woman that Arya overhears says some things I can't make heads or tails of but this:  "dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her did open, I woke from terror"  .....is Catelyn, right?  A woman who was a fish would be a Tully, so it's either Catelyn or it could be Lysa, right?  Sansa said that they threw her mother's body in a river in the show.  

 

So the dwarf woman saw the red wedding ? Those were the red tears? and Arya actually overheard the Dwarf women foretelling her own mother's death?  That's fucking creepy as hell.    By the way, all rhetorical questions, I'm just trying to figure out what she's referring to, because some of it makes sense from where I know the story goes, but some of it doesn't. 

 

In some ways Martin must have had a blast writing this stuff.  It's like Easter Eggs for an Egg Hunt in hell. 

 

She also heard about Stannis's shadow murdering Renly:  "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye."

 

Is this one Jaquen then?  "I dreamt of a man without a face waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung"?  but the only swaying bridge I remember was in the Iron Islands, so that one doesn't fit.  "On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with sea-weed hanging from his wings"  <---- a drowned crow with seaweed on his wings?  Again, not asking for information, just I figure if I actually record what occurred to me, when I find out one way or another, I get to try and look back to see how close I got. 

 

Yeah, that last one I can't make heads of tails of entirely.  

 

Jaime's lost his hand to Vargo Hoat, but I actually knew that one was coming because Mya and I were talking about it when on FB, because I was trying to figure out what the deal with Locke was and she that Locke in the Jaime story was a stand-in....and I guessed it had to be for Vargo Hoat, what with the fondness for chopping off hands and feet.  

 

I already told Mya this, but I'm glad they made the call not to have Vargo Hoat in the show.  He's like Jar-Jar Binks in terms of how racially offensive his character would be, add in that heinous, slobbering lisp and a fondness for machete wielding?  

 

Boy here's something you just never get to say about HBO:  Good call on heading off some viewing audience outrage there.  

 

ETA:  

 

Shimpy under no circumstances read that spoiler ! :)

 

To be clear, you mean whatever you just posted, right?  Not something hanging out untagged or anything?  

 

Thanks for the heads up.  I stick to the rule of "I'll look if someone does the 'this isn't really a spoiler and has to do with a timeline' type of stuff....other than that, for all I know you guys are constantly questioning my lineage and insulting my taste in clothing and unless there's a tagging failure, have at :-D 

Edited September 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

@shimpy I wouldn't factor in Show Stannis because at the end of the the day, Book Stannis and Show Stannis are very different characters.

My opinion is that Stannis isn't the type that lies. And in that moment with Davos talking about his dreaming, he's being surprisingly very vulnerable. And if he was lying then he wouldn't have brought up that much detail at all.

There's a little more evidence later that I'm thinking of as well but I do think GRRM wanted to keep it ambiguous as well.

[Delta1212]

"It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.”

This doesn't sound like someone who is lying to someone else. It sounds like someone who is trying to convince themselves of something they don't really believe.

[WindyNights]

"It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.”

This doesn't sound like someone who is lying to someone else. It sounds like someone who is trying to convince themselves of something they don't really believe.

Well I wouldn't say he doesn't believe it. The way I see it:

He feels emotionally guilty although the logical part of his head is telling him how could he have anything to do with Renly's death. It's something that'll fester in the back of his head until he dies.

I mean if he didn't give the order to kill Renly to Mel and maybe if he later realized that Mel kiled Renly then he would've logically thought hat he didn't really have anything to do with Renly's death. It was all done of Mel's free will.

Little does he know that Mel used his life force to kill Renly.

Edited September 21, 2015 by WindyNights

[John Potts]

I tend to think Stannis doesn't "lie" - I'm pretty sure he was asleep in his tent when Renly died. I'm also pretty sure he's prepared to make highly selective statements and turn a blind eye to what others (eg. Mel) is doing, if it suits his purposes.

 

stillshimpy for all I know you guys are constantly questioning my lineage and insulting my taste in clothing and unless there's a tagging failure, have at :-D

 

Dammit, she's on to us! Quick! Edit your posts!

[Triskan]

To be clear, you mean whatever you just posted, right?  Not something hanging out untagged or anything?

 

 

Dont worry, I was just referring to what I tagged as spoilers ! :)

 

You're progressing quite fast... some really good chapters coming ahead ! 

[Delta1212]

Dont worry, I was just referring to what I tagged as spoilers ! :)

You're progressing quite fast... some really good chapters coming ahead !

And re: that spoiler plus some other things

Haha, oh my god. My reaction to Cat getting some peace finally was "Eh... About that" and then she was confused because the only place with a swinging bridge is the Iron Islands.

Just... I can't.

[mac123x]

That woman's prophecies, like pretty much all of them in the books, are highly and widely parsed and debated amongst fandom.  And that's all I'll say about that.

 

So at a bare minimum Westerling immediately told Tywin that they'd made Robb Stark vulnerable by getting him to break his alliance with Frey, but it sounds like it's also possible that they checked with Tywin before they did anything (what with the whole legend of what happens to the sucker who incur Tywin Lannister's wrath).

 

I could buy Sybell Westerling sending a raven-mail to Tywin, basically saying "oh crap, Robb bedded then wedded out daughter after he took our castle [maybe even insinuating that it wasn't their choice].  Please don't Castamere us."  Tywin then says "aha, this can be to our advantage" and writes back telling her what to do and that she'll be rewarded.

 

The timing of that is sketchy, since the ravens would have to fly back and forth in the short span of time between Robb's wedding and their departure from the Crag.

 

I still have a problem with the idea that Tywin set it up ahead of time, because it requires too much foreknowledge on his part (where Robb was attacking next, that he'd succeed, etc.) and would have had to occur while Tywin was on the move from Harrenhal to the Red Fork back to Harrenhal and on to Kings Landing.

 

Alternatively, Tywin could have set up honeypot traps with all the minor houses in the West, and the Westerlings were just the winners of the use-your-daughter lotto.

[Delta1212]

Yeah, I don't know that I buy Tywin setting it up, but he definitely took advantage, and probably with some level of collusion from someone in the family.

The question is at what point did he enter into the process and how much initiative did the family take on their own.

I honestly don't remember how much, if anything, the books do to address that just because I was never especially focused on the Westerlings and what they were doing.

[Lady S.]

 

Alternatively, Tywin could have set up honeypot traps with all the minor houses in the West, and the Westerlings were just the winners of the use-your-daughter lotto.

Yeah, the only way Tywin ordering it makes sense to me is if he just sent ravens to all the vulnerable castles in the Westerlands offering a reward for anyone who pimped out their daughter to Robb Stark to ruin his Frey alliance. There's just no way he could have given the order during Robb's march to/assault on the Crag. He definitely seized the opportunity to use Walder Frey's pettiness to his advantage, but he wouldn't have had to personally engineer Robb's break-up with the Freys to see that opportunity right away.

[feverfew]

@shimpy I wouldn't factor in Show Stannis because at the end of the the day, Book Stannis and Show Stannis are very different characters.

My opinion is that Stannis isn't the type that lies. And in that moment with Davos talking about his dreaming, he's being surprisingly very vulnerable. And if he was lying then he wouldn't have brought up that much detail at all.

There's a little more evidence later that I'm thinking of as well but I do think GRRM wanted to keep it ambiguous as well.

I don't know; I'm one of those who never had any issues with the way Stannis was depicted in the show, compared to his book counterpart. One of the things I like about (most) of Martin's writings, is that characters are complex: So Stannis can both be that general that starved with his people on Dragonsstone, and a man who sacrified his daughter for ambition dressed up as a savior-complex.

 

Also, people lie. People lie all the time; to others, to themselves. Do I believe he told Melissandre: Go bith an evil demon from hell to kill my brother? No, but he, as others have already pointed out, he knows she uses magic, and her telling him Renly would die by the Red Gods* hands, and him accepting that as fact, would suggest to me that he knows somewhere in his mind it happened for him, by her - and that he could have stopped it, by saying stuff like "I want to meet him on the battlefield. Duel to the death!". Actually that is what I hold most against him - and against the idea that Stannis is somehow a noble/honest/last-good-man-in-Westeros type of character: Assassinations is - by feudal thinking - the coward's way out.

 

* I cannot for the life of remember to spell Rhellor, Rhollo, whatshisface.

 

ambi76, Nksarmi, I wanted to reply to your posts, but the thread's moving too fast for me. I just wanted to say that I'm not entirely disagreeing with what you're saying (or with your complaints against the show) I'm just way more laissez faire about the differences :)

 

Edit because I forgot a very important "not"

Edited September 22, 2015 by feverfew

[WindyNights]

I don't think its anything about an issue with depiction. It really is that they're two different characters. For example compare what GRRM says about Stannis versus what D&D say about Stannis.

I mean D&D think of Stannis as an ambitious person whilst the author has been quoted saying

that he thinks Stannis is one of the few righteous people left.

Personally, I think Stannis is a dutiful not ambitious person. Duty is what he's built his life around. And I think part of the fandom's so wrapped around the idea that everyone has a hidden motive and not saying what they mean that they miss that Stannis is one of the few people who don't engage in that. Stannis says what he thinks and everyone can be damned if they don't like that. It's what makes him unique but also personally unlikeable.

Also

book 3 does add further evidence. He straight out tells Davos that Mel saw Renly's future in the flames but had nothing to with it. He even tells him as evidence that she was the one that implored him to go treat with him. Not sure why though. Anyways I think if GRRM wanted to confirm that he consciously did it he would have made it seem like he might have been lying like maybe adding in something like Stannis paused or acted uncomfortable when he denied that Mel had anything to do with it but Stannis acts honestly bewildered by Davos' accusations without even so much of a pause.

Edited September 22, 2015 by WindyNights

[Holmbo]

I don't think its anything about an issue with depiction. It really is that they're two different characters. ]

Edit

Never mind. I was commenting on the spoiler not working but you fixed it.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Holmbo

[plurie]

Can we change the title to say "Now Reading A Storm of Swords"?

[WindyNights]

I concur.

shimpy's starting to get to some of the good parts : )

[feverfew]

I don't think its anything about an issue with depiction. It really is that they're two different characters. For example compare what GRRM says about Stannis versus what D&D say about Stannis.

I mean D&D think of Stannis as an ambitious person whilst the author has been quoted saying

that he thinks Stannis is one of the few righteous people left.

Personally, I think Stannis is a dutiful not ambitious person. Duty is what he's built his life around. And I think part of the fandom's so wrapped around the idea that everyone has a hidden motive and not saying what they mean that they miss that Stannis is one of the few people who don't engage in that. Stannis says what he thinks and everyone can be damned if they don't like that. It's what makes him unique but also personally unlikeable.

Also

book 3 does add further evidence. He straight out tells Davos that Mel saw Renly's future in the flames but had nothing to with it. He even tells him as evidence that she was the one that implored him to go treat with him. Not sure why though. Anyways I think if GRRM wanted to confirm that he consciously did it he would have made it seem like he might have been lying like maybe adding in something like Stannis paused or acted uncomfortable when he denied that Mel had anything to do with it but Stannis acts honestly bewildered by Davos' accusations without even so much of a pause.

Yeah, but that is what I mean: In Martin's text he can be both righteous and ambitious at the same time.I found the quote you mentioned, and this is what Martin says:

"And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI." [bolded part mine]

For me, that quote simply means that in this case - the White Walkers - Stannis' cause is righteous. In spite of everything else he has done (aka the assassination of his brother, the attempted murder of his nephew) his cause is right, when it comes to the threat in the North. I'm not taking away from Stannis the fact that he was the only one who answered the Night's Watch's call to arms - that was a good deed - but I believe he's lying to himself, if he thinks he's only marching toward the Iron Throne out of duty. And that is also why he marches toward the Boltons; to solidify his claim to the North and win over the Northmen. I think :)

Edited September 22, 2015 by feverfew

[Mya Stone]

Can we change the title to say "Now Reading A Storm of Swords"?

Sorry. Yes. I forgot to.

Hashtag Nursing school brain.

[WindyNights]

I think you and I are interpreting " in spite of everything" differently.

Stannis is petty and Stannis is envious and Stannis is proud but what people mistake for ambition is actually a desire for recognition. He's the middle child and he wanted to step out of Robert's shadow but he doesn't want to be king. Remember how he often wonders why Robert and are my wanted the crown and "the gold is cold and heavy on the head" speech.

I think it's one of the most common fundamental errors that some people fall into when it comes to Stannis and I do think that it's partly because some people have TV Stannis on their minds.

See, Stannis' story isn't about

a man brought down by his ambitions. It's about a man brought down by his duty. Remember Stannis' vision in the flames about a man with a lit crown burning him. Stannis knows that the kingship will destroy him but he he goes forward in spite of everything because it's his duty.

I'm going off what someone said here but GRRM has been constantly hammering in that love is the death of duty. Even honorable people like Jon and Ned fail the test but Stannis is one those like Aemon that might not fail that test. So burning Shireen out of duty not ambition is something that I think might happen. And when I say duty and not ambition I mean it won't be for a little snow melt for a chance to beat the Boltons and more for a "you have to burn Shireen to wake the stone dragon or the hoarde of WW besieging us at Winterfell is going to kill us and mow down the rest of the world without us there being able to stop them anymore

Also just to let you know I don't think you can say

he attempted to murder Edric as he never did. Although admittedly he did struggle with it.

Edited September 22, 2015 by WindyNights

[Haleth]

I still have a problem with the idea that Tywin set it up ahead of time, because it requires too much foreknowledge on his part (where Robb was attacking next, that he'd succeed, etc.) and would have had to occur while Tywin was on the move from Harrenhal to the Red Fork back to Harrenhal and on to Kings Landing.

Right.  Tywin was expecting Robb to go east (and south) to attack Harrenhall.  Instead Robb went west toward Tywin's own territory.  There is no way Tywin would have plotted anything with the Westerlys.  It never occured to him that Robb would outthink him.

[Delta1212]

I'm not sure I see the clear distinction between ambition and a desire for recognition. Different people have different reasons for their ambitions but throughout history the desire for recognition has been one of the primary drivers of many ambitious people.

[nksarmi]

I think Stannis has some ambition and a whole lot of pride and wounded ego.  I don't think Stannis is a good man in either medium - I fully admit that the actor made me like Stannis more in the show.  In the books, I think it's Davos who makes Stannis even slightly likable.  Davos is such a good man that his loyalty to Stannis makes him seem better than he is.  Let's not forget that while Stannis is the only one to respond to the Wall - it was at Davos' urging that he did so.

 

If Stannis wasn't so proud, he would have treated with Robb and won the North easily. All he would have needed to do is explain that Ned backed his claim. Robb wasn't looking for a crown when he called the banners - he wanted to free his father. Stannis and Robb together would have crushed the Lannisters easily.  But I do suppose the earliest image of the Stag and Dire Wolf killing each other told us that would never happen.

 

Though admittedly, I think Stannis' pride far outweighs any ambition he has.  Pride often has to be sacrificed in the pursuit of glory and even Stannis had to know that bringing Robb and the North to his cause would have increased his chances to win.  Pride made him name Robb Stark a usurper instead of working with him.

Edited September 22, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

Well, since Tywin is known for being....Tywin, basically....the guy who rewarded any kind of disloyalty or conflict with things like slaughter of entire families and ruination, murdered children and wives cut in half, I've been assuming that what happened is this:  the Westerlings, knowing all that about him snuck a message out "Holy crap, Robb Stark is here, within our grasp, what do we do?" 

 

And please keep in mind how much the story has stressed the safety of sheltering under a roof as a guest after having eaten, etc.  The stuff that is supposed to bring down a fate as bad as Tywin can, so the most obvious answer of:  "kill him, you nitwits" wasn't going to happen.   

 

"I have an idea.  Send your daughter to him."  from Tywin isn't something that the gods would strike them down for though.   Tywin doesn't need to have been prescient in order to have set it up.  The Westerlings just needed to be fearful enough of Tywin (and Tyrion even thinks that stuff over right before telling Tyrion he's a fool for mocking Westerling) to have immediately asked to be told what to do.  And seriously, no one would have their teenage daughter nursing a teenage boy, and leaving them alone together unless they were either really stupid or they wanted him to buy what he broke. 

 

Tryion is also wondering about those letters he saw his father writing.  It's too soon for Tywin to solely be setting up the Redd Wedding, so I'm assuming that's where the "he was doing as he was told" thing for Westerling comes in.  It doesn't mean I'm right, but it's actual possible and I thought that the passage between Tywin and Tyrion indicated that it was likely.   

 

Once again though, the way that I read things is going to be influenced by already knowing, in at least broad strokes, what happens in the story.  Tyrion thinks over those letters and wonders what Tywin was writing.  Bolton is the obvious stuff, but it needn't be the only thing. 

 

By the way, I've been getting kind of a laugh out of how often Martin ends a chapter in a way that seems to suggest: Oh holy shit, did Jaime just get killed?  

 

Also, one of the sadder things about reading how much damage Catelyn releasing Jaime Lannister did (that passage with Karstark was brutal stuff) is then reading Jaime's POV and knowing that he really wasn't committed to the notion on any level, at least at the time he made the vow.  I know Catelyn knew that, but she really was counting on Tyrion -- and basically says as much in her POV.  

 

It really is knowing that she's going to just pay, and pay and pay for every mistake she makes that allows me to not have any anger towards the character.  Poor Robb though.  Holy crap.  

 

You know it's bad when all I can think is "well, at least he's having a bunch of a sex, at the very least."  

Edited September 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

I've reread some of that stillshimpy to sort it all out and I think you are coming to logical conclusions.  I remember thinking that at least some of the Westerlings were up to no good before the Red Wedding - it's just harder to sort out who knew what and when.  But as you say, Jeyne really does seem like a nice girl.

 

ETA: And this is why I wish the show had kept this part of the plot.  Because dang it, it IS complicated and intriguing.  And they still could have played a genuine affection between Robb and Jeyne which I believe is in the books.  And to me - as I've said before lol - it's all just more tragic.  I know a woman getting stabbed in the baby is supposed to be the epitome of tragic and horror and what not. But I actually believe Robb being torn between different "honors" and "oaths" and trying so hard to do the right thing and being a victim of it all is very, very tragic.  And it kind of nicely parallels Jamie's struggle of "which oaths to keep" theme.  And the added layer of does Jeyne really care for him or is she in on it or is she a victim too?  And is it the mother alone or does the whole family know?  That adds another dimension that is just way more interesting that anything involving Talisa.

Edited September 22, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

But I actually believe Robb being torn between different "honors" and "oaths" and trying so hard to do the right thing and being a victim of it all is very, very tragic.

 

That may be part of why they changed it, although I agree that the story in the book is far more intriguing.  Particularly for me, because it does just reek of a setup -- but the story is also making it clear that if it was, Jeyne wasn't a part of it -- just the concept of these two, nice, good looking young people being used like pawns in a Chess Game is incredibly tragic.  

 

But the story in the book is also making Robb out to be his mother's biggest victim, when you get right down to it.   It has a certain sort of satisfying circular structure:  She lets Jaime Lannister go because she wants her remaining children back so very much, but she ends up getting what remains of her family (to the best of her knowledge) slaughtered.   Book Robb is just doggedly trying to do the right thing and whereas he's incredibly pitiable, it also just makes him a complete sacrificial lamb.  

[nksarmi]

That may be part of why they changed it, although I agree that the story in the book is far more intriguing.  Particularly for me, because it does just reek of a setup -- but the story is also making it clear that if it was, Jeyne wasn't a part of it -- just the concept of these two, nice, good looking young people being used like pawns in a Chess Game is incredibly tragic.  

 

But the story in the book is also making Robb out to be his mother's biggest victim, when you get right down to it.   It has a certain sort of satisfying circular structure:  She lets Jaime Lannister go because she wants her remaining children back so very much, but she ends up getting what remains of her family (to the best of her knowledge) slaughtered.   Book Robb is just doggedly trying to do the right thing and whereas he's incredibly pitiable, it also just makes him a complete sacrificial lamb.  

 

LOL well there is a reason why some of us really don't like Catelyn. :)

 

I guess they had their reasons for changing the story, but I feel like they did the character of Robb no favors.  I dislike him pretty much from the moment we meet Talisa on where his book counterpart might be one of the biggest losses of the series for me. 

 

I mean Ned's death shocked me, but it didn't sting.  Robb's death stung in the shock of it, but also in the "what we can never see come to pass of it."  We can never see him learn that his brothers were alive or see if he could have felt pity for what become of Theon or if he and Jon could have someday teamed up to make waste of all these idiots in the South.  Or heck, just if Robb would have turned his whole Army north when he realized Jon needed help at the Wall. 

 

I mean it's just so "but...wait...what?" in the books.  And in the show, it's more like "well, Frey sucks an Tywin is a bastard, but you knew all of that and you kind of had that one coming."

[ambi76]

I know Catelyn knew that, but she really was counting on Tyrion -- and basically says as much in her POV.

 

Yeah. Hilariously I actually think that Tyrion just totally forgot about that promise to Cat.

 

Book!Stannis is so deep in denial about Renly's death it's not even funny.

I think he needs to have a major epiphany/breakdown because of this in the books before he dies. Probably immediately before he dies, what's with the "will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach".

Edited September 22, 2015 by ambi76

[nksarmi]

Oh my word, the Jamie and Catelyn stuff.  I mean, for it's worth, setting Jamie free and pairing him up with Brie is the start of his most interesting character journey (actually him getting captured to begin with is probably the start).  So I understand why people who have grown to like Jamie appreciate Catelyn for letting him go.

 

But of all the moves Catelyn makes - letting Jamie go ties for second worst decision with her decision to take Tyrion to begin with.  I still hold her staying with Robb and not going back to Winterfell as her worst mistake.  But before I get to why I think holding Winterfell is so important, let me stay focused on Jamie.  At a time when Robb really needed his men (like desperately needed them), letting Jamie go cost him SO much.  I know Catelyn couldn't know that the Boltons were about to betray him and she sure didn't have foreknowledge that he was going to up and marry and piss off Frey.  But damn, that still might have been the moment to sacrifice herself and tell them everything she knew so they could get Jamie back.  I mean, she HAD to realize the position she had put Robb in and while she couldn't undo what she did - maybe should could have helped him recapture Jamie and prevented the stuff with the Kastarks.

 

But back to Winterfell.....I know the cynical argument would be that if Catelyn was at Winterfell, Ramsey might have taken Winterfell and tortured her.  But given how often both the show and the book hit the note that Winterfell can be held with just a handful of men and that Robb would have surely sent a decent amount of men to escort his mother home and hold Winterfell with her - I really believe that with her leadership (because when she isn't desperate she does prove shrewd) that Starks would have held.

 

Also, since I basically think Theon is a coward, I don't think he would have tried to sack Winterfell if Catelyn had been there in command.  I believe he only attacked it because he saw Bran as weak and vulnerable.  And I don't think Ramsey would have made an overt attack on Winterfell - the book version of the character is all about deception and trickery as opposed to being a great warrior (at least as far as I can recall).  So I think - given the way GRRM wrote the characters - if Catelyn is at Winterfell, Theon doesn't attack and if Theon doesn't attack, Ramsey/Bolton doesn't gain Winterfell.  (And I think this is why GRRM keeps Catelyn away from Winterfell because if she is there, he would have to change how subsequent events unfolded.)

 

So does Robb live if the Starks hold Winterfell?  I think perhaps for awhile anyway.  I mean, if the Starks held Winterfell, I don't know if Bolton would have been bold enough to betray Robb at the Red Wedding - it might have happened later, but would his betrayal had come then?  And then if Bolton isn't on board, would Frey be so bold himself? 

 

I mean simply put, Tywin wasn't making deals with bold men who would attack you to your face.  Theon, Bolton, and even Frey were all cowards who looked for weakness and I think the biggest moment of weakness for Robb is losing Winterfell. I mean Frey could have felt slighted and been pissed all he wanted in regards to Robb's marriage, but if he thought Robb was in a position of strength, he never would have betrayed him.  He would have just grumbled and maybe refused them passage north and forced them to go the long way or some such passive aggressive nonsense, but I don't think he would have allowed the Red Wedding if he didn't think Robb was weak.

 

So as much as people can argue that Catelyn had good reasons for everything she does, she really should have taken her ass back to Winterfell and not entrusted the defense of the family stronghold in the North to a child and an old maester.

Edited September 22, 2015 by nksarmi

[WindyNights]

I think Stannis has some ambition and a whole lot of pride and wounded ego. I don't think Stannis is a good man in either medium - I fully admit that the actor made me like Stannis more in the show. In the books, I think it's Davos who makes Stannis even slightly likable. Davos is such a good man that his loyalty to Stannis makes him seem better than he is. Let's not forget that while Stannis is the only one to respond to the Wall - it was at Davos' urging that he did so.

If Stannis wasn't so proud, he would have treated with Robb and won the North easily. All he would have needed to do is explain that Ned backed his claim. Robb wasn't looking for a crown when he called the banners - he wanted to free his father. Stannis and Robb together would have crushed the Lannisters easily. But I do suppose the earliest image of the Stag and Dire Wolf killing each other told us that would never happen.

Though admittedly, I think Stannis' pride far outweighs any ambition he has. Pride often has to be sacrificed in the pursuit of glory and even Stannis had to know that bringing Robb and the North to his cause would have increased his chances to win. Pride made him name Robb Stark a usurper instead of working with him.

Stannis doesn't know that Ned backed his claim. That's show-only. And Robb already crowned himself king before Stannis made a move.

Because his desire for recognition isn't related to his quest for the throne. It's related to why he's so resentful and bitter. He wants recognition for what he's already done but he knows he'll never get it.

Also the fact that

he listened to Davos at all despite the fact that he just betrayed him kinda speaks to Stannis' character. It doesn't matter that it was at someone's urging. The decision ultimately rested with him. I guess that's one of Stannis' best attributes though. He listens to all his advisors.

But I agree with what you said. He's too proud by half.

Edited September 22, 2015 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

Oh my word, the Jamie and Catelyn stuff. I mean, for it's worth, setting Jamie free and pairing him up with Brie is the start of his most interesting character journey (actually him getting captured to begin with is probably the start). So I understand why people who have grown to like Jamie appreciate Catelyn for letting him go.

But of all the moves Catelyn makes - letting Jamie go ties for second worst decision with her decision to take Tyrion to begin with. I still hold her staying with Robb and not going back to Winterfell as her worst mistake. But before I get to why I think holding Winterfell is so important, let me stay focused on Jamie. At a time when Robb really needed his men (like desperately needed them), letting Jamie go cost him SO much. I know Catelyn couldn't know that the Boltons were about to betray him and she sure didn't have foreknowledge that he was going to up and marry and piss off Frey. But damn, that still might have been the moment to sacrifice herself and tell them everything she knew so they could get Jamie back. I mean, she HAD to realize the position she had put Robb in and while she couldn't undo what she did - maybe should could have helped him recapture Jamie and prevented the stuff with the Kastarks.

But back to Winterfell.....I know the cynical argument would be that if Catelyn was at Winterfell, Ramsey might have taken Winterfell and tortured her. But given how often both the show and the book hit the note that Winterfell can be held with just a handful of men and that Robb would have surely sent a decent amount of men to escort his mother home and hold Winterfell with her - I really believe that with her leadership (because when she isn't desperate she does prove shrewd) that Starks would have held.

Also, since I basically think Theon is a coward, I don't think he would have tried to sack Winterfell if Catelyn had been there in command. I believe he only attacked it because he saw Bran as weak and vulnerable. And I don't think Ramsey would have made an overt attack on Winterfell - the book version of the character is all about deception and trickery as opposed to being a great warrior (at least as far as I can recall). So I think - given the way GRRM wrote the characters - if Catelyn is at Winterfell, Theon doesn't attack and if Theon doesn't attack, Ramsey/Bolton doesn't gain Winterfell. (And I think this is why GRRM keeps Catelyn away from Winterfell because if she is there, he would have to change how subsequent events unfolded.)

So does Robb live if the Starks hold Winterfell? I think perhaps for awhile anyway. I mean, if the Starks held Winterfell, I don't know if Bolton would have been bold enough to betray Robb at the Red Wedding - it might have happened later, but would his betrayal had come then? And then if Bolton isn't on board, would Frey be so bold himself?

I mean simply put, Tywin wasn't making deals with bold men who would attack you to your face. Theon, Bolton, and even Frey were all cowards who looked for weakness and I think the biggest moment of weakness for Robb is losing Winterfell. I mean Frey could have felt slighted and been pissed all he wanted in regards to Robb's marriage, but if he thought Robb was in a position of strength, he never would have betrayed him. He would have just grumbled and maybe refused them passage north and forced them to go the long way or some such passive aggressive nonsense, but I don't think he would have allowed the Red Wedding if he didn't think Robb was weak.

So as much as people can argue that Catelyn had good reasons for everything she does, she really should have taken her ass back to Winterfell and not entrusted the defense of the family stronghold in the North to a child and an old maester.

Interesting point but I don't think Cat would've made it to Winterfell actually by the time ACOK started.Getting there is a long road.

I kinda think that Tywin would've let Jaime die to kill off Robb and the rest. Reason being is that there's a line at the end of AGOT where Tyrion realizes that Tywin's given Jaime up for dead.

Similar to how Balon was already building warships for an attack on the Iron Islands despite Theon still being in Stark's custody. It's clear Balon was going to sacrifice Theon for his goals.

[nksarmi]

Interesting point but I don't think Cat would've made it to Winterfell actually by the time ACOK started.Getting there is a long road.

I kinda think that Tywin would've let Jaime die to kill off Robb and the rest. Reason being is that there's a line at the end of AGOT where Tyrion realizes that Tywin's given Jaime up for dead.

Similar to how Balon was already building warships for an attack on the Iron Islands despite Theon still being in Stark's custody. It's clear Balon was going to sacrifice Theon for his goals.

Its easy to think of Balon giving Theon up - harder to imagine Tywin giving up on Jamie - the only heir he deemed worthy.  Maybe he planned to have more children?

 

Oh and while I don't remember everything about the timeline - I'm thinking once Catelyn helped Robb with Frey, he should have headed South and she should have headed North.  Actually, I don't entirely believe that Catelyn should have negotiated for Robb with Frey.  While I know he was a dodgy old codger and Catelyn spoke on behalf of her father, I believe that Frey would have respected Robb more if he had treated with him personally - Robb might have come away with a better deal.  Or hell, maybe he would have married Roslyn on the spot and eliminated the possibility that he could later do anything if poor Jeyne comforted him the wrong way.

Edited September 22, 2015 by nksarmi

[John Potts]

Actually that's one thing that never rung true: why didn't Walder insist on an instant wedding? It's not like he gives a damn about his daughters/grand-daughters feelings or that the dignity of marriage requires that the bride & groom have time to  get to know each other first. OK, maybe he still betrays Robb later, but it was an odd plot choice for Walder not to get the deed done there & then.

[WindyNights]

Actually that's one thing that never rung true: why didn't Walder insist on an instant wedding? It's not like he gives a damn about his daughters/grand-daughters feelings or that the dignity of marriage requires that the bride & groom have time to get to know each other first. OK, maybe he still betrays Robb later, but it was an odd plot choice for Walder not to get the deed done there & then.

For a number of reasons.

I think because Walder and Robb hadn't yet decided on who he was going to marry and that would take to much time. Robb was in a hurry to get south.

I suspect Walder also didn't want to do it there and then and tie his horse to a losing one. He probably wanted to wait and see before he fully committed one of his daughters to Robb.

And then there was the fact that Walder was already milking for all that was worth. He may have wanted a marriage on the spot but Cat probably blocked it.

Edited September 22, 2015 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

The "Late Lord Frey" wanting a commitment without yet having to fully commit himself seems fairly logical to me.

[nksarmi]

If Robb had been there in person, I can totally see Frey wanting him to pick one and get it done.  Only Catelyn being there instead probably prevented that - with her reasoning that he needed to get south to save Ned - and they should plan the ceremony for later.  But honestly with the way Frey seems to want to rid his house of children, one might believe he would be perfectly happy having a five minute wedding and sending the new bride on with her husband to have a late bedding.

 

And sadly, that all would have worked out far better for Robb in the long run.

Edited September 22, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

I suspect Walder also didn't want to do it there and then and tie his horse to a losing one. He probably wanted to wait and see before he fully committed one of his daughters to Robb

 

That's kind of what I assumed was the case.  He extracted the promise and meant to hold Robb to it, but only if Robb won, or was granted the North.  Frey was being fairly cagey by keeping his options semi-open.  If the tide of the war had turned he could have broken the allegiance in the same way Joffrey's engagement to Sansa was broken:  You can't make a solemn vow to a traitor.  

 

He could have "seen the error of his ways" and done exactly what he did do:  Sold Robb up the damned river.  I don't know what will happen yet, but I'm assuming that he might have done that anyway.  Even if Robb had married one of his daughters, but was clearly going to lose, all he'd really have to do is deliver Robb to Tywin in much the same way to win back favor.   

 

Catelyn seizing Tyrion was a disaster, but what made it an unforgivable disaster is that there came a point in all of that when she started to wonder if it was possible that Tyrion was telling the truth:  Who would arm an assassin with their very own, highly distinctive knife?  Even if she hadn't started to suspect:  "Petyr lied"  then she should have cottoned on to the fact that someone was trying to lead her down a particular path.  

 

I guess I don't mind the changes to the story so much because it makes everything less "It's all Catelyn's fault!" ....because in the books?  It's roughly metric fucton's worth of Catelyn's fault.  Starting with telling Ned he had to go and be the Hand when he didn't want to, but going on and on from there. 

 

When Robb wanted to send Theon as an envoy, she bloody well should have said, "Please don't send him....I need an escort back home to the boys, I've been too long away from Winterfell and particularly given Rickon's age and Bran's injuries, they need me there." 

 

I can finally see why it always seemed like fandom was being awfully hard on Catelyn:  the story really does set her up as being seemingly incapable of ever getting anything right. 

 

At least in the show's version, there's a little bit more blame to go around in a lot of areas.   It makes for a more balanced tale.  

 

ETA:  Oh, by the way,  so that you guys don't think I disappeared again -- I will be traveling again for a bit, starting tomorrow, but I'll be less off the grid than I was last time :-)  I feel goofy informing anyone of that, but someone just said that I'm coming up on some interesting things so I figured I should say something, lest the silence be deafening. 

Edited September 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

I would really say it's less everything is Cat's fault and more most things are the Tullys' faults.

Edmure was pivotal in losing the war in the south for Stannis and Robb, Cat did everything you described above and Lysa started everything with her letter to Cat and kept the Arryn forces from joining Robb. That's an extra 40,000 men that Robb could've used to attack KL.

[nksarmi]

WELL, Lysa killed Jon to begin with causing Robert B to go North and get the Starks mixed up in the mess to begin with and she did all of THAT because of Littlefinger.  So really, it is all Littlefinger's fault.

 

But if we only look at people to blame for Robb losing the war who actually would have wanted them to win and we have to look mostly at Catelyn. :)

[WindyNights]

WELL, Lysa killed Jon to begin with causing Robert B to go North and get the Starks mixed up in the mess to begin with and she did all of THAT because of Littlefinger. So really, it is all Littlefinger's fault.

But if we only look at people to blame for Robb losing the war who actually would have wanted them to win and we have to look mostly at Catelyn. :)

Edmure and Cat. I say this as a big Edmure fan though.

But Edmure's role in Robb's defeat is always downplayed compared to Cat's by people.

As many mistakes as Cat made, everything would've turned out fine if Edmure did as he was told. Defend Riverrun not a 250 mile front.

Add in that he took out the troops meant for Old Walder's good behavior as well.

[magdalene]

So, who has worse judgment - Ned or Cat?

 

I have always found it ironic that Cat's bad judgment continues after she becomes SH.

[nksarmi]

Edmure and Cat. I say this as a big Edmure fan though.

But Edmure's role in Robb's defeat is always downplayed compared to Cat's by people.

As many mistakes as Cat made, everything would've turned out fine if Edmure did as he was told. Defend Riverrun not a 250 mile front.

Add in that he took out the troops meant for Old Walder's good behavior as well.

 

I think shimpy made a really good argument why Robb could have given Edmure more information and he would not have made that mistake and let's be honest here - that was one mistake compared to Cat's long line of mistakes which might include helping create the situation where Robb had to go to war to begin with.  I place very little blame on Edmure in all of this.  Honestly - in response to Magdalene's comment - I'd place more blame on Ned than Edmure. 

 

I know Ned couldn't have won the war for Robb exactly, but he could have taken better measures to get Sansa and Ayra out of KL before he allowed the preverbal shit to hit the preverbal fan.  I can't remember the exact order from Game of Thrones so I might be mixing up how it went down in the books vs the show, but it seems like Ned knew King's Landing was a dangerous place for his girls and he knew he was about to stir up a huge shit storm when he made the accusations he made, but rather than be the slightest bit tactical - he proceeds along his merry way while his children are in grave danger.  Heck, even after Jamie murders his men in the streets and nothing is done to him, Ned still doesn't think to get his daughters out of KL in a covert way.  I mean yes, he talked about it and then went about slowly putting his plan into action (so much that he allows LF to distract him even though he knows the danger is freaking real).

 

So as much as I blame Catelyn for a LOT of the ill that befalls her family, I also blame Ned for not getting out of KL or at the very least not getting his daughters out before he acted.  IF Ned gets Sansa and Ayra out of KL and well on their way to the Riverlands before it all goes wrong, Catelyn could have meet up with them there.  So that even if Robb calls the banners to get Ned released, things might have played out very differently.

 

Not only would Catelyn have never let Jamie go, but once Geoffrey does his fool bit and executes Ned, with no other reason to take KL, maybe Robb would have just executed Jamie in retribution and moved his Army North and split the kingdom. That would have been a very different story indeed.

[WindyNights]

Actually Ned was planning to get his daughters out of there before shit hit the fan. The problem is that Sansa ratted Ned out to Cersei because she didn't want to leave thereby allowing Cersei to block that move.

Edmure's one mistake cost Robb the entire war whereas none of Cat's mistakes by themselves would've been enough to do so.

Againi, they told him to hold Riverrun. A 250 mile front is not holding Riverrun. Hell, Edmure was actually trying to win the war without Robb out of a bruised ego.

Yeah, Robb could've left Edmure with a little more information but they didn't trust him enough not to act obvious. It's not even that mistake alone. He got slaughtered by Jaime in the field reducing Riverlander troop numbers and then he gives Robb especially bad advice telling him to let the Riverland lords go back to their holdfasts to protect their homes losing Robb another 10,000 men because Edmure tries to naively protect everyone. It's out of good intentions, yeah, but it doesn't make it good advice.

Also add on that he took out the troops at the Twins that were supposed to guarantee Walder's good behavior and well, yeah.

[nksarmi]

Actually Ned was planning to get his daughters out of there before shit hit the fan. The problem is that Sansa ratted Ned out to Cersei because she didn't want to leave thereby allowing Cersei to block that move.

Edmure's one mistake cost Robb the entire war whereas none of Cat's mistakes by themselves would've been enough to do so.

Againi, they told him to hold Riverrun. A 250 mile front is not holding Riverrun. Hell, Edmure was actually trying to win the war without Robb out of a bruised ego.

Yeah, Robb could've left Edmure with a little more information but they didn't trust him enough not to act obvious. It's not even that mistake alone. He got slaughtered by Jaime in the field reducing Riverlander troop numbers and then he gives Robb especially bad advice telling him to let the Riverland lords go back to their holdfasts to protect their homes losing Robb another 10,000 men because Edmure tries to naively protect everyone. It's out of good intentions, yeah, but it doesn't make it good advice.

Also add on that he took out the troops at the Twins that were supposed to guarantee Walder's good behavior and well, yeah.

You make some good points, but I don't and never have blamed Edmure.  If Robb wanted Edmure to execute an exact plan, he should have given him that information.  Edmure did what many others would have done in the exact same situation.  It's war.  Generals take advantage of situations and go for wins.  Edmure cannot be blamed for doing that. If Robb had not been looking for a specific outcome, Edmure might have been considered brave and been lauded for his victory.  

 

And Edmure cannot be blamed for losing to Jamie.  Robb defeating and capturing Jamie is the biggest reason why he is respected as a great commander - because he did something no one thought he could do - defeated Jamie Lannister.

 

Finally, and most importantly, Edmure's screw up really didn't really lose Robb anything.  It lost Stannis something to be sure, but not Robb.  Unless I am mistaken, Robb does not want to sit the Iron Throne and he could care less who controls King's Landing.  In reality, with what we know of Stannis, Robb could be no more guaranteed of Sansa's well being if Stannis took King's Landing than if he lost (and Cersei gives us good reason to believe Sansa might have been worse off if Stannis had won as unfathomable as that is).

 

Edmure might have cost Robb a tactical position, but he did NOT lose Robb status as King of the North.  Even if the troops had been there to ensure Walder's good behavior, it is unlikely they would have intercepted Tywin's raven.  And somehow I suspect once Frey's loyalty was lost, the Red Wedding would have proceeded with or without those troops there.  

 

No despite Edmure's mistake, Robb was still King of the North and in command of a Northern Army that he could have turned North to recapture Winterfell and reign from a position where Tywin couldn't have touched him.  What cost Robb everything was the loss of his loyal men - and that happened partly because of his own mistake with Jeyne (which you can't blame him for) and a series of mistakes by Catelyn.

 

In regards to Ned, yes he "tried" to get the girls out and Sansa ran and told.  But he could have just commanded his people to pack them up and sent the girls away without giving them a chance to object.  He knew the danger much more than young girls could have understood.  He still bears the blame.

[WindyNights]

Edmure didn't take advantage of a situation to win the war. He was creating a situation to win the war.

Also he took overstepped his boundaries by taking command of the entire Riverlands operations despite the fact that he had no authority in doing so even giving orders to Roose's northern troops.

In addition to that, he was recalling the riverlords that were defending their homes after Robb left.

You see Robb left him in charge of Riverrun and its forces not the Riverlands.

He was charged with explicitly holding Riverrun not concocting a battle plan to take Tywin out.

You don't understand. It did lose Robb the war. The plan was to catch Tywin between Robb's army and Edmure's army. Encircled, Tywin would be destroyed.

Even if Tywin survives that he would also be too far west for him to join up with the Tyrells for an attack on Stannis.

Stannis then takes KL and kills Joffrey and Tommen. Without Joff and Tommen, the war is over as the Lannister-Baratheons end up dead and the Tyrells would have no reason to join up with Tywin without an heir to marry Marge too.

Then it becomes a matter of whether Robb would bend the knee to Stannis or not.

Stannis' army would be significantly less of a challenge than a combined Lannister- Tyrell army.

How would Sansa be worse off under Stannis than Cersei? I mean they literally killed her dad in front of her, beat Sansa with swords and stripping her naked as well as marrying to the ugliest guy in Westeros.

I think what you're referring to are the soldiers in Stannis' army having their blood up and start raping and looting everything.

But that's moot anyways since Cersei said she was going to have Ilyn kill her and everyone in that room if Stannis won.

Edited September 23, 2015 by WindyNights

[nksarmi]

Exactly, so Sansa's options if Stannis won was being raped by his men or killed by Cersei's - not exactly win/win there.  As crazy as it sounds, it seems like Sansa benefited to some degree by Stannis loss.  And hell, for all we know, even if she managed to make it through Stannis win without Cersei killing her or Stannis' men raping her, Mel might have burned her as some sort of virgin sacrifice to the Lord of Light. 

 

But more to the point, I don't believe Edmure loss Robb anything, because Robb didn't WIN anything by defeating Tywin and Stannis taking King's Landing.  Now IF Robb and Stannis had a pact for Robb to bend the knee and Stannis to release Sansa (and presumably Ayra for all they know) - then Edmure's failure would have meant something.  But as is, Robb had no such agreement in place.  So even if Robb's plan succeeded, he would have just traded the bastard Tywin for the stubborn, prideful Stannis with a side of crazy as Mel to go along.

 

To decide if Robb loss something, you have to look at why he called the banners to begin with and what his goals became over time.  Robb called the banners to free Ned and he failed that when Geoffrey cut off his head.  Robb kept the war going presumably for a combination of things, freeing his sisters, avenging his father, and then being King of the North - liberating the North for the rest of the kingdom.  

 

Here is the real problem in all of this - and I think it's a failure in the text that never occurred to me before unless someone can clarify it for me - if Robb doesn't care about Sansa and Ayra enough to trade Jamie for them - why does HE keep going.  We are NEVER led to believe that Robb wants the Iron Throne.  We are also told repeatedly that the North cannot be invaded and cannot be defeated (to include being told the North only bent the knee for dragons).  As such, it is safe to assume that Tywin nor Stannis nor any southern lord could have defeated Robb if he had turned his Army north and settled back at Winterfell.

 

So why does he keep fighting after his father is dead?  If he doesn't want the Iron Throne and doesn't need to defeat Tywin to protect the North - why?  The only two answers there could be is a) to free Sansa and Ayra and b) avenge Ned.  If all he wants is vengeance against Ned, killing Jamie would have been as good as any other vengeance so why keep him alive?  If he wants to free Sansa and Ayra, why not serve Jamie up for trade before Catelyn defies him to do it?

 

I don't know that I've thought about this in these terms before, but in truth, Robb might be as responsible for his own doom as anyone else.  Because why didn't he turn North after he heard that Winterfell was sacked?  Why did he even bother to make amends with Frey if he could have gone a different way (as I recall going South it was because he was in a hurry, but he didn't need Frey to go back North)?  Why not just pull back and fortify?  I really don't know if that is answered in the text.  Thoughts? 

 

*Edited because I think that read bitchier than I meant it to when I posted it and I decided to expand on my line of thought.  Sorry!

Edited September 23, 2015 by nksarmi

[WindyNights]

Edited out ----

okay so I guess we agree on the Sansa part : p

@nk Eh, okay, let's just agree to disagree. Edmure's actually one of my favorite characters btw. He's an actual lord that shows some social responsibility.

Edited September 23, 2015 by WindyNights