Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Protar]

Just by the by Shimpy, have you had much (if any) contact, with your former fellows on the spitball wall? Obviously there's a lot you can't say now, but I was just looking through the last unsullied posts this year and I felt vicariously sad for you. Those guys were your internet buddies for five years. :3

[stillshimpy]

That's really kind of you, Protar, but it's all good. I haven't had any contact with them, and I likely won't going forward, unfortunately.  That's just sort of the gig, the Unsullied don't really talk to Bookwalkers -- Except for the mods --  and I am now Bookwalker :-)  It's okay though, for every person I can no longer talk to there were about five or six people I now get to talk to about the books on a regular basis.  So there were about 7 remaining and I will miss them, they are fun and interesting people, but if I ever want to, I can still read them and  I got back about 50 who were my internet buddies from the BSG (and many other ) boards who were all technically bookwalkers.  Plus, I have several people in my real life who had the "ZOMG!  We can FINALLY talk about this!" reaction.  

 

I will miss them, they are a neat bunch.   But I just got back a bunch of internet buddies, am making more there are at least two of the Unsullied that I would see on another show's forums so, I may even end up exchanging posts with a couple of them again.  

 

Plus, I'm getting to actually read and discuss the stories on a different level.   I've also had a ton of fun "Oh my God, it was so hard not to tel you _______ "  type of exchanges with friends.   So I traded one form of fun for other ones :-)  

 

I am still trudging through that Jon chapter.  I apologize for glacial progress on that one.  Something about it isn't clicking and I can't figure out why.  I might be for one of the weirder reasons -- I don't have any recollection, whatsoever --  of this scene from the series.   That either means it bored me nearly dead when on the screen, or it isn't in the series.  But it has this strange combination of "This actually not capturing my interest....and it's partly due to not having even a tiny clue what is about to come next...."  

[Protar]

Well the Fist of the First Men is on the show, so...I guess the scene just bored you on the show or something. I suppose the glacial pace is appropriate ;)

 

You're forgiven for finding it boring though :P Everyone has their pet peeves. For me it's Arya's travelogue before reaching Harrenhal (which I know you really liked). In general any wanderings through the Riverlands tend not to excite me much. 

[Delta1212]

It's fine. You're still going at a far faster clip than most such things. The aforementioned Leigh Butler read did a more detailed write up and recap of each chapter, but was averaging 2-3 chapters a week last I followed it, which was a while ago. As you can imagine, it took a long time to get anywhere.

[Protar]

I'm still keeping up with her but doing a chapter or two per week with such a huge series just isn't ideal. Loads of details get forgotten. I think dense books like these are supposed to be consumed over a condensed few weeks. 

[Mya Stone]

I had a hard time with Jon's chapters in this book when I first read them. Ironically, I also found Davos to be rather boring. It was only sometime later (after a reread - I've read these a disgusting amount of times...well, the first three, at any rate) that I came around to appreciating the depth of Jon's story in this book particularly, and loving Davos as a character. Hopefully you trudge through it, shimpy! I'm pretty sure it gets better soon. (Off memory. I'm only a little ahead of you now, haha.)

[Triskan]

Same for me, Davos chapters became way more entertaining on second read, but Jon's chapters are among my favourite in this book (especially the later one, but we'll talk about that when Shimpy reaches them, cause I'll have a lot to say on them ! But that being said, I really enjoy the first half of the expedition up to them reaching the Fist, but I'm repeating myself from a previous post !)

 

By the way Shimpy, any thoughts on Theon's chapters ? Any ? ^^

Edited August 7, 2015 by Triskan

[John Potts]

Magdalene He lacks the thing I value in a person, he lacks empathy, he lacks humanity, and he lacks the kind of common sense that is important to me.

 

 

Being nice doesn't make you a good ruler: I wouldn't like to hang out with Stannis or Tywin that doesn't mean they weren't effective rulers. In fact, it's been suggested that a certain degree of sociopathy is useful in making it to the top even in today's society (because most people aren't prepared to step on other people to get ahead). You only need to look at these boards to see how may people are prepared to criticise Ned for not being ruthless enough. But look through history and consider the people judged to be "Good" rulers and consider how many of them were actually good people (admittedly there is a certain degree of observation bias as historians tend to prefer writing about empire builders, who are unlikely to go around "feeling your pain"). Danny is probably the nicest person of the claimants to the Iron Throne

but she's left a swathe of death & destruction behind her (her Khalesar has largely died out, the rulers of Qarth have been wiped out leaving nobody in charge, Astapor and Yunkai are dissolving into bloody civil war and plague).

 

And because he puts it better than me (and because you can never have too much Terry Pratchett, RIP) here's what Genghiz Cohen had to say on the subject of rulers: “Yes, whenever you come across a king where everyone says, ‘Oo, he was a good king all right,’ you can bet your sandals he was a great big bearded [jerk] who broke heads a lot and laughed about it. Hey? But some king who just passed decent little laws and read books and tried to look intelligent...’Oh,’ they say, ‘oh, he was all right, a bit wet, not what I’d call a proper king.’ That’s people for you.”

Edited August 8, 2015 by John Potts

[Delta1212]

Heh, I just had a bit of a long debate about this (actual history, rather than ASoIaF history, and with the central point of discussion being moral relativism as it pertains to historical periods), but yeah, but rulers throughout history that did anything noteworthy would probably be considered monstrous criminals if you stripped their actions of the context that they were doing it from the position of a political leader rather than as a normal individual.

[magdalene]

Being nice doesn't make you a good ruler: I wouldn't like to hang out with Stannis or Tywin that doesn't mean they weren't effective rulers. In fact, it's been suggested that a certain degree of sociopathy is useful in making it to the top even in today's society (because most people aren't prepared to step on other people to get ahead). You only need to look at these boards to see how may people are prepared to criticise Ned for not being ruthless enough. But look through history and consider the people judged to be "Good" rulers and consider how many of them were actually good people (admittedly there is a certain degree of observation bias as historians tend to prefer writing about empire builders, who are unlikely to go around "feeling your pain"). Danny is probably the nicest person of the claimants to the Iron Throne

but she's left a swathe of death & destruction behind her (her Khalesar has largely died out, the rulers of Qarth have been wiped out leaving nobody in charge, Astapor and Yunkai are dissolving into bloody civil war and plague).

 

And because he puts it better than me (and because you can never have too much Terry Pratchett, RIP) here's what Genghiz Chen had to say on the subject of rulers: “Yes, whenever you come across a king where everyone says, ‘Oo, he was a good king all right,’ you can bet your sandals he was a great big bearded [jerk] who broke heads a lot and laughed about it. Hey? But some king who just passed decent little laws and read books and tried to look intelligent...’Oh,’ they say, ‘oh, he was all right, a bit wet, not what I’d call a proper king.’ That’s people for you.”

My problem with Stannis is not him being not "nice". You can be pretty much a shit most of the time and still be capable of having some empathy for your fellow human being in a pinch. Or maybe at least your own child or your own brother.  Stannis is so rigid in his thinking that it makes him unable or unwilling to read people and situations well - for example putting his trust in Mel when anybody with any common sense wouldn't trust that horrid woman.

[glowbug]

I am not a Stannis fan and have no desire to see him on the iron throne but I have rooted for him on several occasions, though mostly on the show. The show has made him somewhat more likable

except for sacrificing Shireen, which hasn't happened in the books (yet)

and the actor also really sells the character. But mostly I've rooted for him because he's usually up against an even worse enemy, or allied with characters I do like. In the Battle of the Blackwater he was against the Lannisters, and although I liked Tyrion, I was still rooting for the Lannisters to lose because of how horrible Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey were (and at the time I would add Jamie to that list although I came to really like him later on). In the battle with the wildings I was rooting for Jon and the Night's Watch so again I was on Stannis' side. And against the Boltons I was

/am

Team Stannis even with Shireen's death

(even more so in the book because he hasn't sacrificed her)

though it pains me to say it. He isn't likable, he's just been fortunate in his choice of enemies and allies. 

[John Potts]

Yeah, it certainly helps to pick enemies who are more evil than you. Also, although I have read all the books, I haven't seen anything post Season 3 (so for me, we've just had

the Red Wedding

) and things like

the burning of Shireen

are yet to happen, though I'm aware in general terms of what happens in the latest Seasons). But even if I haven't convinced anyone to become a Stan-fan, I hope I've at least put the case for the defence. But I don't want to derail this thread into a "Stannis: top bloke or complete douchebag?" one, so I'll hold my tongue (well, fingers) for now.

[Haleth]

In the next Davos chapter there is another big red flag that Mel was full of crap with her visions (although misinterpreting what she saw at this point was understandable).  Stannis should have stopped letting himself be distracted by a pretty pair of boobs and started paying attention to how much of the time she was just wrong.  For someone who was so rigid about other people following the rules he was quick to break those rules by any means available (including sorcery) to achieve his goals.  I don't dislike Stannis, he's an interesting character who I think would have been an ok king following the civil war as long as he was out from under Mel's influence.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Haleth

[John Potts]

I'm pretty sure we're meant to see Mel as sincere, though like many prophets, she can be mistaken in what she sees She genuinely believe she is acting to prevent evil from wiping out everything, though that doesn't mean she's right. Of course,

if GRRM weren't so tied up in his Merennese Knot the Wall might have come down by now and we'd see whether or not she knows what she's talking about.

 

(Honestly, I'm not trying to take every villain and defend them - don't expect me to say, "Joffrey - he just needs a hug!" or "The White Walkers - at least they're doing something about global warming!")

Edited August 9, 2015 by John Potts

[Which Tyler]

Yay, finally found and caught up with this topic.

Ermmm... Nothing really to add at the moment though, but I'm sure I will now I can actually follow it.

[stillshimpy]

By the way Shimpy, any thoughts on Theon's chapters ? Any ? ^^

 

I've just finished several chapters and there was a Theon chapter in there -- where he clearly makes plans to take Winterfell.  More on that in moment. 

 

I finally, finally managed to make my way through Jon's chapter and it turns out it's where he finds the Dragonglass/Obsidian materials, in a really creepy version of Lassie trying to let you know Timmy's Down the Well.  The descriptions of Ghost were genuinely creepy in that and the discovery is much more ominous than what happens in the series, where several of the Night's Watch just sort of say, 'Oh, look here....we found this...must have been left here hundreds of years ago."  

 

It's far less atmospheric in the series and in the book kind of a lot is made out of the location for that discovery.  It just has more import in the book and is written to seem very fateful and guided by gods or fate.  In the series (and please keep in mind I'd been pretty darned bored by The Wall for sort of a long time at that point) I don't even recall Jon being the person who finds them.  I thought it was Sam and several of the other "They tended to blend" characters who made the discovery of what seemed something left behind in ancient times. 

 

Here it seems like that cloak is recent and furthermore -- with all the Benjen, Benjen, how will we ever find Benjen talk beforehand -- that it's possible that Benjen buried them there (Benjen's going to show up as a Zomboni soon, isn't he?  Argh.  Jon actually thinks of that).   

 

Bran's chapter was, once again, just sort of sad.  Jojen's dream didn't even come close to being about what I thought it would be when it came to the Freys and very clearly, Ramsay, in the guise of Reek has arrived.  So Ramsay is already at Winterfell when Theon arrives?  Oh brother, that's unlikely to go well.  

 

Jojen dreams of Reek/Ramsay cutting off the faces of two boys?  Great, so he's going to be just as charming here as he was elsewhere.  Poor freaking Lady Hornwood, although that it is one area where Martin seems to be indulging his inner Stephen King.  It's extremely unlikely that a starving person would start chewing off her own fingers, but I do know that King wrote a story where someone stranded on an island starts amputating parts of himself to eat.  I think that was King, I never read the story, someone told me about it and I thought it was pretty eye-roll worthy at the time.  Here is just made me sad for poor Lady Hornwood.  

 

I do like that Martin essentially uses a character we don't get to know to illustrate how difficult it was to be a woman with something that men wanted for power, or gain.  It actually helps shed a little light on some of the oddness with Lysa Arryn, hiding in the Eyrie and why Cat didn't question that more as a response.   Presumably Lady Hornwood would have had knights to protect her, etc.   but it did her little good.   She was treated throughout as a commodity.  Terrible to think that she would have been better off immediately being married off to someone if they'd only wanted her for her lands.  Anything other than Ramsey (who the book just refers to as Bolton's Bastard , thus far, and that's incredibly fitting).  

 

So Stannis has not spread the word far and wide that he killed Renly, it would seem.  I do like how rumors fly and are so often entirely inaccurate among the various camps, but that the seed of the truth is there somewhere.    I liked that it was Tyrion coming up with the plan to marry Joffrey off to Margaery and sending Littlefinger off as an envoy.  I take it that it isn't LF who returns Ned's bones to  Catelyn, if she ever gets them back, that is.  

 

The only thing I jotted down for Theon's chapter is "Dagner Cleftjaw, mwhwhaahaha"  ....sorry, but if that's still the guy who betrays Theon to Bolton's forces at Wintefell, that's actually wonderfully hilarious as Martin made him almost literally two-faced.   Since I know terrible things happen to Theon, things that NO ONE could ever begin to deserve and that in the book his view of the Starks is much less, "Tell me now, am I your brother now and always?" and more "Those bastards that held me captive...." and is in denial about all the other things like apparently making sure he wanted for nothing, dressed him well, never locked him up, educated Theon and treated Theon like a cousin, if not a brother and  much better than hostages are actually treated.  

Show Theon comes off as much dimmer and far more ...I'm going to go with pathetically needy when it comes to his family.  Show Theon has pitiable aspects to him even as he betrays Robb, but the betrayal is that much worse because of all the "Do you love me as a brother?" stuff.  Book Theon makes more emotional sense, is clearly motivated by the same things and seems as likely to eventually come to the conclusion that Eddard Stark was a good father-figure to him and that Robb trusted him as he would have a brother.  

 

I think because the show has Theon's downfall happen fairly swiftly and then it's so incredibly horrible what happens to him -- and we can't have access to the small hints of guilt, conscience or even distaste for the Iron Island ways via the written word -- that they needed to make him more openly almost child-like in his desperate grasping for approval and familial love.  Book Theon arrives on the Island, obviously fairly intent on betraying the Starks.  

 

When we join him in progress there are just the tiniest hints of misgivings.   I'm also starting to be confused as hell as to what will happen at Winterfell, because Jojen's dream about Ramsay indicates that he's going to do something truly horrible to two boys at Winterfell.  I kind of doubt that Bran and Rickon die though and Mya Stone, you're the reason I very, very much doubt that Brandon Stark is going to end up literally defaced by Ramsay.   You know why and we don't need to go into here, but that's got to be the funniest "Well, I am sort of spoiled to that part, but not because anyone spoiled me to it....just...yeah.   Nope.  Bran's not a goner."  

 

My views of Theon are so thoroughly colored by what I know is going to happen to him, I think I'd be more outraged and instead I'm far more of the "Oh God, no one could ever deserve that living death that is visited upon Theon."  

 

So....what the fuck?  Did the show invent everything between Tywin and Arya?  That's an interesting choice.   Also, clearly LF doesn't see her waiting at Tywin's table, right?  She doesn't realize that she should have named Tywin and the Mountain until after they've gone....which is one of the few times that Martin wrote her appropriately for a child her age.  Her logic is kid logic, not "If I take out Tywin Lannister, then Robb has basically won the North..."  logic.  

 

And before it even comes up, yes, there is a GIANT world of difference to my mind between a ten or eleven year old girl, having people killed off by Jaqen and Stannis sending the Shadow Assassin.  She's a little kid.  She's stand no chance of physically besting the people who beating her constantly and mercilessly.  The first death she asks for is a death of retribution brought about because she feels compassion mixed with wrath and a desire for retribution for the victim of The Mountains horrible crimes and she lashes out like a little kid at the person horrible enough to laugh at the suffering.  

 

If the books stick with the show's depiction of what the Faceless Men are -- the last recourse of the truly wronged -- then if anyone will ever fit that description and deserved their help, my gods it is Arya.  Also, she won Jaqen's debt to her through an act of compassion.  She couldn't just let them burn to death, chained in a cage.  She won that retribution with her own honor.  Weese was the more selfish pick, but again, she's a child and she's even more horribly treated than Sansa.  

 

Although it's not like it's a contest, Sansa being stripped and beaten was more horrible in the book and at least she had someone there to intervene on her behalf.  I know earlier people were discussing how much credit Tyrion should or shouldn't get for trying to help Sansa in that moment.  It really shouldn't be a remarkable thing to save a fourteen-year-old (or 13, or however old she is supposed to be now...I think it's 13) from being stripped and beaten in front of a room full of people who do nothing.

 

However, it's more than anyone else is willing to do help her.  So many of these people suck so much that I'll soon be team White Walker, I suspect.

 

Also, Cersei was awfully nice to make it so incredibly obvious that she's about to have some try and kill Tyrion.  She's really not very good at a lot of this, is she?  Kissing Tyrion on the brow couldn't have been more obvious a clue than if she'd actually said, "I'm up to something particularly vicious and terrible."  This is one of the areas where Show Cersei and Book Cersei are starting to part ways enough to make me understand why people called Show Cersei Carol.  

 

I left off for the moment as Brienne swears fealty to Catelyn, which is somehow less vaguely comic in the book.

 

Also, I believe that Martin didn't consciously realize that the Rainbow Guard would be one of the ways to accentuate Renly's sexual orientation, but I do think subconsciously he had to be aware of ye olde "Friend of Dorothy" and the significance of the song Somewhere Over the Rainbow.  It might not be an influence he had in the forefront of his mind, but regardless of how much he apparently denies it...it would only be convincing if Renly wasn't gay.  Stannis's remark about the likelihood that Margaery would become pregnant makes it pretty clear:  Martin did intend for readers to pick up on the "Renly is gay" clues.   

 

ETA:  

 

(Honestly, I'm not trying to take every villain and defend them - don't expect me to say, "Joffrey - he just needs a hug!" or "The White Walkers - at least they're doing something about global warming!")

 

Ha!  Fair enough, but here's hoping you don't start defending Ramsay either.  The dude just locked some poor woman -- after apparently publicly raping her and calling it a marriage -- and let her starve to death.  Oh and she'd have died of dehydration before she got around to gnawing off her fingers.   Poor soul.  

Edited August 9, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Lady Hornwood was one of the consequences of Robb and Cat recklessly running off and neglecting things at home. Someone other than a little boy should have been left in charge to protect their people.

[Protar]

Martin claims that the rainbow guard thing wasn't a deliberate reference to the LGBTQIA flag, but merely a reference to Renly's love of bright colours. Although maybe that penchant for fashion was itself a little bit of a gay stereotype by Martin (forgiveable, given how it's otherwise pretty understated). 

 

ETA: When you say that the decision to include the Arya/Tywin scenes was interesting...did you mean good interesting? or bad interesting? :P

Edited August 9, 2015 by Protar

[Eegah]

That was actually the change I've supported the most in the whole show. Arya and Tywin's relationship in those scenes is fascinating and the actors had incredible chemistry. The one downside is that there's no real payoff to it as Tywin goes to his grave never realizing how close he was to Arya, but while it lasted it was a lot of fun.

[SeanC]

So....what the fuck?  Did the show invent everything between Tywin and Arya?  That's an interesting choice. 

They wanted to give Charles Dance more screentime.  The scenes were quite good, even if they were entirely implausible (Tywin would never allow a peasant girl to talk to him like that, and if he had figured out she was a noblegirl, as he says he has, he would have done something about it).

 

Although it's not like it's a contest, Sansa being stripped and beaten was more horrible in the book and at least she had someone there to intervene on her behalf.  I know earlier people were discussing how much credit Tyrion should or shouldn't get for trying to help Sansa in that moment.  It really shouldn't be a remarkable thing to save a fourteen-year-old (or 13, or however old she is supposed to be now...I think it's 13) from being stripped and beaten in front of a room full of people who do nothing.

 

 

She's 12 at this point.

 

With regard to the last Sansa chapter I talked about how the show regularly removes Sansa's opportunities for meaningful decision-making, and this chapter is another example.  Tyrion offers to move her within the Tower of the Hand, which presents her with a choice between immediate safety at the cost of her opportunity to attempt to escape the Red Keep (since she wouldn't be able to meet with Dontos anymore), leading to her declining the offer (and coming up with an excuse) in the hopes that Dontos will get her out.  In the show, Tyrion hurriedly offers to break the betrothal (like he does in the book), which is fine, but it's nowhere near as significant an active risk as when she decides to risk everything on getting out.

Edited August 9, 2015 by SeanC

[John Potts]

It had never occurred to me that the Dragonglass might have been stashed there by Benjen - I don't think that was GRRM's intent, but it would at least be a reason that Ghost found the stash if he recognised his scent (though "Animal Intuition" when you're a magically touched creature is not too much of a stretch).

 

It's a shame that some of the changes from book to screen made the Arya & Sansa's choices more questionable and the changes here are the best examples of that.

 

 

stillshimpy I'm also starting to be confused as hell as to what will happen at Winterfell, because Jojen's dream about Ramsay indicates that he's going to do something truly horrible to two boys at Winterfell.

 

 

Without spoiling anything "Truly horrible things" happening is usually a safe bet!

 

stillshimpy Ha!  Fair enough, but here's hoping you don't start defending Ramsay either.

 

 

Funnily enough, I did consider "Dieting the Ramsay Bolton way - weight loss guaranteed!" but since it referred to future events I'd have to spoiler bar it which rather defeated the purpose (it's also a pretty sick joke, but that bothered me less)!

[nksarmi]

Lady Hornwood was one of the consequences of Robb and Cat recklessly running off and neglecting things at home. Someone other than a little boy should have been left in charge to protect their people.

I hope this doesn't make me have to turn over my "feminist card" but one of the biggest reasons I dislike Cat is that she didn't get her butt back to Winterfell immediately once she learned Robb had called the banners and gone to war.  I know Robb was young and Sansa (and she thought Ayra) were in KL, but damn, she was the Lady of Winterfell and Bran and Rickon needed her.  I would not have felt the same way if Jon had been at Winterfell instead of at the Wall, but that just wasn't the case.

[SeanC]

I hope this doesn't make me have to turn over my "feminist card" but one of the biggest reasons I dislike Cat is that she didn't get her butt back to Winterfell immediately once she learned Robb had called the banners and gone to war.  I know Robb was young and Sansa (and she thought Ayra) were in KL, but damn, she was the Lady of Winterfell and Bran and Rickon needed her.  I would not have felt the same way if Jon had been at Winterfell instead of at the Wall, but that just wasn't the case.

Well, strictly speaking, she wasn't the Lady of Winterfell anymore.  Regardless, the entire fate of House Stark (and House Tully) is dependent on the events playing out in the south; it's hardly surprising that she feels it's important that she be there.  It's her suggestion that they try to negotiate with Renly, for instance.

[chandraReborn]

On the fingers chewed off things, I think we could probably take it as rumor, not fact, though I don't doubt Ramsey did horrible things to her. 

[nksarmi]

Well, strictly speaking, she wasn't the Lady of Winterfell anymore.  Regardless, the entire fate of House Stark (and House Tully) is dependent on the events playing out in the south; it's hardly surprising that she feels it's important that she be there.  It's her suggestion that they try to negotiate with Renly, for instance.

I admit that it's hard for me to remember everything in order, but Ned was a captive when Robb first called the banners and I felt the first thing Cat needed to do once she learned that news was go home and oversee Winterfell.  I don' know if Theon would have taken Winterfell if she had been there, but I do wonder how much Cat helped versus how much she hurt. 

 

First, I'm not sure Cat was right to suggest treating with Renly after Ned backed Stannis.

 

Second, Cat might have gotten them across the Twins but she did it at the cost of Robb's betrothal.  It would have been better if Robb negotiated with Frey himself.  If he had, maybe he would have taken the marriage pack more seriously and not broken his oath or maybe he could have gotten a better deal out of Frey.  Either way, a promise he made himself might have been more solemn to him than one his mother made for him.

 

Third, Cat cost Robb dearly when she let Jamie go - she cost him more in that moment than she ever gained him.

 

Finally, the best advice Cat ever gave Robb - about not trusting the Iron Born - he ignored. 

 

So all in all, I think she would have been better off in Winterfell, making sure the city was a stronghold in the North and a place where people could take shelter if things went badly.  I mean if Winterfell hadn't fallen, Robb might still be alive (after all, I know Tywin Lannister's ravens won the war but Frey and Bolton might not have been so quick to betray if a Stark was still at Winterfell).

[SeanC]

I admit that it's hard for me to remember everything in order, but Ned was a captive when Robb first called the banners and I felt the first thing Cat needed to do once she learned that news was go home and oversee Winterfell.  I don' know if Theon would have taken Winterfell if she had been there, but I do wonder how much Cat helped versus how much she hurt. 

Winterfell was being overseen just fine, whereas her inexperienced son was leading a fractious group of bannermen south to deal with southern lords Catelyn had far more experience with (which is to say, any at all).

 

First, I'm not sure Cat was right to suggest treating with Renly after Ned backed Stannis.

None of them knew that Ned had backed Stannis (indeed, Stannis himself did not know that).  Regardless, Renly was the major power in the south at that point.

 

Second, Cat might have gotten them across the Twins but she did it at the cost of Robb's betrothal.  It would have been better if Robb negotiated with Frey himself.  If he had, maybe he would have taken the marriage pack more seriously and not broken his oath or maybe he could have gotten a better deal out of Frey.  Either way, a promise he made himself might have been more solemn to him than one his mother made for him.

Rather a lot of "maybes" in there.  GRRM sets it up in a way that makes it clear that Catelyn is the best person to negotiate with Lord Walder.

 

Third, Cat cost Robb dearly when she let Jamie go - she cost him more in that moment than she ever gained him.

Her worst moment, obviously, but not a reason for her to go home instead of going south, since she has no idea what will happen.

 

Finally, the best advice Cat ever gave Robb - about not trusting the Iron Born - he ignored.

Not a reason for her not to stay, since she can't know whether he will listen to her or not (and he does, quite often).

 

So all in all, I think she would have been better off in Winterfell, making sure the city was a stronghold in the North and a place where people could take shelter if things went badly.  I mean if Winterfell hadn't fallen, Robb might still be alive (after all, I know Tywin Lannister's ravens won the war but Frey and Bolton might not have been so quick to betray if a Stark was still at Winterfell).

It's purely speculative whether Catelyn would have done anything differently, since she would ultimately still be relying on military advice from others.  But it's also quite possible that if Catelyn had not gone south, Robb would not have crossed the Twins, meaning Riverrun falls and the Northern campaign in the south falls apart much more quickly.

Edited August 10, 2015 by SeanC

[Lady S.]

 

Second, Cat might have gotten them across the Twins but she did it at the cost of Robb's betrothal.  It would have been better if Robb negotiated with Frey himself.  If he had, maybe he would have taken the marriage pack more seriously and not broken his oath or maybe he could have gotten a better deal out of Frey.  Either way, a promise he made himself might have been more solemn to him than one his mother made for him.

 

He did make the promise himself, she had to come out and go over all the terms with him, and there's no indication he wouldn't have kept that promise if he hadn't met someone else during the war, in very specific circumstances. (I tried to phrase that in a way that could refer to

Talisa or Jeyne W.

) And it was the one consensus among all of his men that Robb couldn't risk going in there himself, since he'd have to go alone. If he was under Walder's power like that, it's more likely he never would have been allowed to cross, or that Walder would decide he'd be more valuable being traded to Tywin than as a prospective son-in-law. And what does Robb know about negotiating, anyway, that he could have wheedled the best deal out of Frey? 

 

Your other points are all fair enough (except for the Renly thing, since they had no idea of Ned's support for Stannis until it was too late to matter), but GRRM was manipulating the plot all he could to make sure Robb did die and Bran and Rickon had to leave Winterfell. If Robb was meant to be the victorious, avenging hero, it would be a very different story.

 

Shrimpy, I'm impressed you got that Ramsay was disguised as his servant Reek while in Winterfell, but that's probably easy enough to figure out if you know Ramsay can't die before meeting Theon. With that and Bran not actually dying, you've got two of the puzzle pieces.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Lady S.

[Protar]

That was actually the change I've supported the most in the whole show. Arya and Tywin's relationship in those scenes is fascinating and the actors had incredible chemistry. The one downside is that there's no real payoff to it as Tywin goes to his grave never realizing how close he was to Arya, but while it lasted it was a lot of fun.

 

I'm kind of torn on them. They were fun to watch as little vignettes, but they don't really serve any purpose and I didn't buy grandfatherly Tywin. It feels like D+D found Arya's time in Harrenhal boring (because it's not like character development and introspection is interesting) and instead just decided it would be cool to have Charles Dance and Maisie Williams riffing. D+D do have a big tendency to play favourites with the actors. 

[Avaleigh]

The comment that rang false to me was the way Tywin said that Arya reminded him of his daughter. I'm just like, in what universe? The glimpse we caught of young Cersei on the show, that girl and what Tywin saw of Arya makes me feel like they couldn't have been more different.

At the same time, I did have a positive response to Arya being told to her face that she's like one of the people who is on her list. It seemed kind of ironic to me.

[Protar]

Well I suppose they're both tenacious and have a bit of a mouth on them? And I guess Tywin could theoretically have an idealised image of what Cersei was like at that age. Not that that sounds very much like Tywin to me, but then neither does anything that he does in those scenes so... 

[nksarmi]

Lady S, your point about GRRM engineering the story to play out like it did is true of course, but we do have to pretend that the characters had a choice and things could have gone differently as we decide if we like them or not, right?  I mean, it just wouldn't be any fun to say "awe we can't hate Ramsey because he doesn't have any choice in being evil - GRRM just wrote him that way." :)

 

However, within the confines of the story - I just always believed that Cat belonged in Winterfell with Bran (who had just gone through one heck of an ordeal and should not be relied upon to play Lord of Winterfell while trying to recover from being paralyzed) and Rickon who is what, all of 3?  As young as Robb might be, he was a man in their world and surrounded by seasoned fighters and strategists - what little good Cat provided him is nothing compared to what she could have offered Bran in Rickon in my mind.  Obviously others can disagree, but her decision to stay with Robb rather than go back to Bran and Rickon is one of the biggest reasons why I dislike her.

 

Along the same lines, I think the biggest mistake Ned ever made was not getting his daughters out of King's Landing the moment he knew he needed to do so.  I know it isn't his fault Cat took Tyrion captive or that he got attacked by Jamie Lannister and wounded, but I think once he realized what was going on and long before he talked with Cersei, he should have gotten Sansa and Ayra out without debate or delay. 

 

As much as I think Ned and Cat are supposed to be presented as loving, good parents - they really do seem to have very neglectful moments for the sake of advancing the Stark plot/misery.  I don't know if that's because GRRM doesn't have children and therefore doesn't realize that a parent's first thought should be "how can I protect my young children as the crap hits the fan" or if he just didn't know how to make it look like Ned and Cat were doing all they could and it just wasn't enough - but even though I like Ned, I do think he fails as a father at times as well.

[Protar]

I think Cat has a lot of value as a political adviser to Robb. But that's another reason why she probably would have helped a lot more had she been stationed at Winterfell and ruled over it in Robb's stead. A lot could have been avoided with a firmer hand on Winterfell.

[stillshimpy]

When you say that the decision to include the Arya/Tywin scenes was interesting...did you mean good interesting? or bad interesting? :P

 

I'm going with a different category on this:  Didn't really serve the story, as much as it served the show-runners.  Every now and then the people who run a show will just fall head-over-heels for one of their actors onscreen.  I don't even mean that in a romantic sense, they will just LOVE an actor's ability to bring a character to life and say, "Oh we've HAVE to use that more".   

It can be good.  Like Vince Gilligan kind of famously deciding not to kill off Jesse Pinkman in the first season of Breaking Bad. Or Jack on Lost being spared at the end of the pilot, whatever you might think of Jack as a character that was a series-defining decision.  It can be bad too.  See:  Almost anything that the incredibly good-hearted Ronald D. Moore started doing because he simply loved his actors so much.   Not a thing wrong with that and it served some stories very well and others not so well.   For instance, there came a point when directing Edward James Olmos seemed to include letting him do whatever he felt like doing, no matter how huge and overblown it was.  I like EJO a lot, but he completely lost the power of contrasting restraint with abandon and things got hugely Emo.  

Even here it can be a good thing:  I know fans were upset by Ros, but I liked her and found almost all her stories to have merit.  

 

So I'm not some "Hey, that wasn't in the book!  Damn you all to the seven hells and take the giants eyeballs with you" type of purist....but....eh ....man they skipped a metric ton of "Would have flippin' helped to know THAT...or THAT...or THIS OTHER THING...." type of information so they could have two actors -- admittedly, really gifted ones -- onscreen in scenes that made only a little bit of sense.  The second Tywin twigged to Arya being educated and speaking properly, that jig had to be up.  So they made a decision to show that Tywin was perceptive as hell and then had him ignore any implication of "At the very least, she's likely someone's daughter from the other side that you may wish to hold hostage...." even if he didn't realize, "That's a Stark." 

 

Tywin not knowing that Arya was missing in the series doesn't then explain why he'd fail to act on the "Oh, a servant girl.  Who handles my wine, no less, is clearly hiding her higher-born-than-she-claims identity" ....so whereas I appreciated learning more about Tywin's relationship with Jaime and Arya having her own love of the stories of the Kingdoms (just not the girly stuff that Sansa loved) ....it caused as many problems as it solved.   Plus, for every completely made up thing that takes up screen-time in multiple settings, some elucidating detail gets pitched.  

 

So it's an interesting decision and I wouldn't actually call it a good one, just an understandable one that still had some fun results....and by the way...didn't actually come as a giant shock to me, because it was senseless enough in the series (that Tywin just let go of the fact that Arya was clearly hiding her identity for some reason) that it actually explained one of the more "Huh?" aspects.  

 

I can't agree that Cat should have gotten her butt back to Winterfell or that Lady Hornwood's fate was on Catelyn and Robb's shoulders any more than any of the other tragic things that happen in the North are.  Catelyn seizing Tyrion being chief among the "well, you can't unring that fucking bell and gods know you never actually tried to..."  actions.  Again though, the detail the series leaves out -- That Jaime was going to be named Warden of the East -- does put a different spin on a lot of that.  Catelyn did have reason to believe war was going to be inevitable anyway and that the Lannisters were planning something anyway.  Doesn't make it a smart move, just less of an idiotic one. 

 

But Bran wasn't truly in charge of the Goings On at Winterfell, Luwin was left in charge and truly, whoever was counseling Lady Hornwood -- up to and including Lady Hornwood herself -- should have mentioned "Listen, send a Raven pledging your loyalty and mean it, but with your husband dead and no heir?  Shut the damned gates because every land-grabbing prick in the kingdoms will try to take-you-to-wife to get a hold of your lands.  Stay home and bar that gate while you figure out who you wish to marry and do it fast."  

 

I blame Catelyn for letting Jaime Lannister go.  That will always be the dumbest thing ever and seeing as it was just mentioned above, I take it she does the exact same thing in the book.  Gah.  I'd really hoped that maybe there was more to it than releasing their best leverage to try and get back her daughters.  

 

Now... I can completely understand the impulse, but these were the same people who had Cut Off Ned's Head, so even sheer desperation doesn't excuse Cat for believing that might have worked.  It's also why I could never get very het up over Robb ignoring his mother's advice on marrying, because Catelyn lost the war right there and poor Robb might as well do something to make himself even marginally happy.  It was just not a survivable move on Cat's part and the war was lost, lost , lostikins before Robb ever broke his word to Walder Frey.  

 

Cat has her moments, but Martin handed her a lot of "Well, that was a game ruining decision" type of things.  Poor Catelyn.  

 

 

 

I'm impressed you got that Ramsay was disguised as his servant Reek while in Winterfell, but that's probably easy enough to figure out if you know Ramsay can't die before meeting Theon. With that and Bran not actually dying, you've got two of the puzzle pieces

 

Yeah, that's solely down to the fact that I know Theon ends up as Reek, so when Bolton's Bastard is mentioned as traveling with a horrible, smelly manservant named Reek....when Theon was very much alive, it became clear:  Oh shit, there's more than one Reek.  Theon is, at the very least, Reek II .  Ramsay makes himself a Reek over and over, doesn't he?    But it was given away entirely by Jojen's dream in which he's skinning things.  

 

I was at least a little surprised by the description of Ramsay, who I didn't realize was supposed to be sort of physically repulsive on top of all his other charms.  

Edited August 10, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

I should add that I do think Cat was smart and fierce enough to hold Winterfell with a small contingent of men.  It's not just that I think she should have been with her children rather than playing war, but also that I think Theon couldn't have done what he did if she had been there and she would have made him pay for even trying.  And I do think if the Starks hold Winterfell, it would have been a lot harder for Tywin to arrange the betrayals that ultimately did Robb in.

[Avaleigh]

Nksarmi, I don't dislike Cat for choosing to not return to Winterfell but I have to agree that she made the wrong call here. Her intentions of course were good and she was reduced to tears when she was making her choice to go to Riverrun over Winterfell. She'd just sent back Rodrik to provide extra protection and guidance for her boys and to me it's clear that they're never far from her thoughts. I just finished reading and recapping her choice here and I have to admit that my heart went out to her.

Her father is dying, her husband is in prison and in danger of losing his life. Her ancestral home is being threatened, her brother is becoming more beleaguered by the day, and her sister is an unhelpful, selfish bitch who threatened to have her thrown through the Moon Door last time they saw each other. Catelyn basically has to put all of her hopes into her fifteen year old kid to make everything right again. She thinks that if Robb goes down then they all die so by staying with Robb, she's seeing it as doing her best to try and protect everyone.

My dislike of Cat comes down to her treatment of Jon and making him pay for Ned's alleged indiscretion. I don't dislike the character and I can see how her behavior is understandable on some level, but my sympathy over this is limited. Catelyn has it a lot better than most woman in Westeros even highborn ones.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Protar]

I guess that in most television, it's an organic part of the writing process to see where the story takes you and not be afraid to change plans when an actor gives a particularly good performance, or one which doesn't gel with your original interpretation of a character. But when it's an adaptation that can be a problem. D+D usually return to the main plot points, so these flights of fancy never feel natural. It's always bought back to the original plot. Often by force. I wouldn't say that this is the worst example of that as it fits okay into the plot, but it does stick out as one of the most egregious examples of actor favouritism.

 

I will say that as much as I didn't like Ros, I think Esme Bianco (her actor) did a really good job. I really wish she'd been cast as Shae.

[Avaleigh]

 

I will say that as much as I didn't like Ros, I think Esme Bianco (her actor) did a really good job. I really wish she'd been cast as Shae.

Oh man, coulda, woulda, shoulda.

I liked Ros at times but I think in retrospect it would have been a better choice to include the character of Jeyne Poole over Ros.

[stillshimpy]

My dislike of Cat comes down to her treatment of Jon and making him pay for Ned's alleged indiscretion. I don't dislike the character and I can see how her behavior is understandable on some level, but my sympathy over this is limited. Catelyn has it a lot better than most woman in Westeros even highborn ones.

 

I agree that Catelyn -- whose words to and treatment of Jon is a really difficult thing to get past -- made most of her choices having thought them through.   She actually told Robb not to send Theon as the envoy to the Iron Islands, so at least some of what happened she actively counseled against.  However, something like friggin' Ramsay coming in the front door under the guise of being someone else might have happened with, or without Catelyn being there and frankly, if Cat was there, there's at least a little bit of a chance that Ramsay just Lady Hornwood's her instead.  

 

Basically, as soon as it was war, things were going to go spectacularly to hell and Catelyn isn't on the hook for not being prescient when it comes to how wrong they would go.   The book even attempts to explain why the hell she would send freaking Jaime Lannister off:  She flat out calls Robb on being unwilling to trade Jaime just for girls.  Robb doesn't exactly shut that one down hard either.  

 

So I get why, plus, Jaime was almost certainly a dead man anyway, as the losses started mounting, sooner or later one of Robb's bannermen would have killed Jaime as retribution for the loss of their own son, family, or lands.  

 

But because this was the same family that had killed Ned anyway, had a conveniently dead King and a younger brother with a good reason for a monster grudge against Catelyn (and ironically was still the only Lannister likely to honor a deal about releasing the girls....if Cersei had even had both of them) , that's why it is a too-dumb-to-forgive move.  

 

It's an understandable one, but she should have known why it was doomed before it started.   

[Avaleigh]

Talk about some cognitive dissonance for me--Catelyn's dumbass move saved my favorite character so it's sort of hard for me to get mad at her here but yeah, agreed, it was almost unforgivable that she did that.

I'm unclear though if Catelyn would have been at risk for being in a Lady Hornwood situation if she'd gone back to Winterfell. Isn't part of the problem that Lady Hornwood doesn't have any children to muddy up any claim of Ramsay's once he marries her?

[SeanC]

I'm unclear though if Catelyn would have been at risk for being in a Lady Hornwood situation if she'd gone back to Winterfell. Isn't part of the problem that Lady Hornwood doesn't have any children to muddy up any claim of Ramsay's once he marries her?

Catelyn would be at risk of marriage for claim-jacking purposes, but for Riverrun, not Winterfell, I'd say. As long as she has living children anybody trying to claim Winterfell wouldn't gain anything by it.

[stillshimpy]

I'm unclear though if Catelyn would have been at risk for being in a Lady Hornwood situation if she'd gone back to Winterfell. Isn't part of the problem that Lady Hornwood doesn't have any children to muddy up any claim of Ramsay's once he marries her?

 

Considering that Bolton eventually conspires (and was clearly already letting Ramsay do whatever he pleased) to murder Robb and Catelyn, yeah, I don't think that having heirs at the ready was going to stop Ramsay from laying claim to Catelyn ...while he and his dad killed off her heirs ...which is basically what happened in the series.  Winterfell is seized by Theon, but Ramsay's just come in the damned front door and Robb is alive, Catelyn is alive.  

 

He was already moving on Winterfell despite the presence of heirs and one of them technically being a King.  Ramsay appears to only support the rules if he can twist them to his own ends (same with Bolton)....so yeah, I think she would have been at risk from the Dread Buttmunch Ramsay regardless.  

[Delta1212]

Considering that Bolton eventually conspires (and was clearly already letting Ramsay do whatever he pleased) to murder Robb and Catelyn, yeah, I don't think that having heirs at the ready was going to stop Ramsay from laying claim to Catelyn ...while he and his dad killed off her heirs ...which is basically what happened in the series. Winterfell is seized by Theon, but Ramsay's just come in the damned front door and Robb is alive, Catelyn is alive.

He was already moving on Winterfell despite the presence of heirs and one of them technically being a King. Ramsay appears to only support the rules if he can twist them to his own ends (same with Bolton)....so yeah, I think she would have been at risk from the Dread Buttmunch Ramsay regardless.

You don't even kill off all the heirs, at least straight away. Bran can die easily either from an accident or just because he's "sickly" and then you marry Catelyn and gain control over the three year old heir to Winterfell.

That gives you plenty of years in de facto control over the North to consolidate your own power before Rickon can be quietly disposed of.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Delta1212

[Eegah]

What really gets to me is that ever since the reasonably faithful Season 1, D&D have refused to say a single goddamn word about their adaptation choices. Occasionally we’ll get an explanation from other sources (none of which are relevant yet, but I’ll bring them up once Shimpy gets there), but the head men themselves have openly refused to discuss any of it.

 

Contrast this to the Lord of the Rings films, which had their own fair share of controversial changes from the source…and Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens took care to address every single one of them in their commentaries and behind the scenes features, explaining the rationale behind them and resulting in far less vitriol than the fans being left on their own. Hell, for one of them (Faramir’s characterization in Two Towers) Fran even went so far as to say she wasn’t fully satisfied with what they came up with, and they may well have managed something better if only the frantic shooting schedule hadn’t forced them to use the best idea they had at the time. This show could really use more of that level of humility.

[Protar]

What really gets to me is that ever since the reasonably faithful Season 1, D&D have refused to say a single goddamn word about their adaptation choices. Occasionally we’ll get an explanation from other sources (none of which are relevant yet, but I’ll bring them up once Shimpy gets there), but the head men themselves have openly refused to discuss any of it.

 

Contrast this to the Lord of the Rings films, which had their own fair share of controversial changes from the source…and Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens took care to address every single one of them in their commentaries and behind the scenes features, explaining the rationale behind them and resulting in far less vitriol than the fans being left on their own. Hell, for one of them (Faramir’s characterization in Two Towers) Fran even went so far as to say she wasn’t fully satisfied with what they came up with, and they may well have managed something better if only the frantic shooting schedule hadn’t forced them to use the best idea they had at the time. This show could really use more of that level of humility.

 

D+D don't really care very much about the original fanbase. They outright encourage actors not to read the books. They don't feel any need to explain their creative decisions clearly. In general the attitude some show fans have to bookwalkers is one of outright disdain. It's kind of bizarre, in all my years being a nerd I've never seen the core fandom treated the way ASOIAFs fandom is treated.

[Delta1212]

On the other hand, to be fair to D&D, in the case of LotR, everyone knows how it plays out in the books. You can always give an intimate accounting of why you made certain choices, whether they were production or story related and how they tie into the overall framework of the story.

D&D literally can't do any of that, and frankly, I think getting into a habit of explaining just the adaptation choices that are the result of production issues or their own personal tangents or what have you would just wind up putting a huge glowing neon sign over every adaptation choice that they have to "no comment" on as being something related to the end-game.

This is not a normal adaptation, because in a normal adaptation, your audience, or at least the prior fanbase, already knows the story and you can have a frank conversation about how your version relates to the original if you want to.

They cannot do that in this case because none of use know how the story ends and they don't want to wind up spoiling their own production.

I can forgive them for being a little more tight lipped than the usual adapter given the circumstances.

[Protar]

There is some merit to that, but a lot of the changes have nothing to do with the ending because we've seen them play out and be wrapped up within the span of the series. So you'd think that once those plots had wrapped up and they were no longer potential end game things, they might explain some of the reasoning. I don't think we're owed anything per say, but some people have been with the series for most of the time I've been alive. Those guys are the reason these books are successful and by extension the reason the show is where it is today. A little bit of explanation would be nice. 

 

This is probably off topic though. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Protar

[glowbug]

Talk about some cognitive dissonance for me--Catelyn's dumbass move saved my favorite character so it's sort of hard for me to get mad at her here but yeah, agreed, it was almost unforgivable that she did that.

 

Avaleigh, I know what you mean. I remember being beyond angry at Catelyn for letting Jamie go at the end of season two (I was Unsullied then) and I was still angry about it going into book three, which I read before season three. At the beginning of ASoS I told my husband, who had already read it, that I wouldn't mind if Catelyn died (not expecting it to actually happen), but by the time of the Red Wedding my hatred for Catelyn had lessened considerably because I loved Jamie and was grateful that she save him. I still disliked her for her treatment of Jon but not so much that I wished her dead. 

Edited August 11, 2015 by glowbug

[plurie]

I don't consider myself a Stannis fan, but he was the ONLY one of the five kings who sent help to the Wall. So once in a while, his priorities were in the right place, which is more than you can say for any of the others. And I really like Davos, who is extremely loyal to him (but doesn't approve of burning people alive). The "burning people alive" thing is hard to get past.

 

If Catelyn HADN'T released Jamie, Karstark would have killed him. IMO, she made the best of a bad situation. And, like Jamie with Aerys, she didn't deign to explain this to anyone.

[Dev F]

Tywin not knowing that Arya was missing in the series doesn't then explain why he'd fail to act on the "Oh, a servant girl.  Who handles my wine, no less, is clearly hiding her higher-born-than-she-claims identity" ....so whereas I appreciated learning more about Tywin's relationship with Jaime and Arya having her own love of the stories of the Kingdoms (just not the girly stuff that Sansa loved) ....it caused as many problems as it solved.   Plus, for every completely made up thing that takes up screen-time in multiple settings, some elucidating detail gets pitched.  

 

So it's an interesting decision and I wouldn't actually call it a good one, just an understandable one that still had some fun results....and by the way...didn't actually come as a giant shock to me, because it was senseless enough in the series (that Tywin just let go of the fact that Arya was clearly hiding her identity for some reason) that it actually explained one of the more "Huh?" aspects.  

 

Yep. This is the storyline I was referring to earlier -- the one that's generally well regarded on the show but that I think absolutely pales in comparison to the book version. The Arya/Tywin material is a big part of what doesn't work for me.

 

It's the kind of writing that I refer to as "character porn": where we're not really learning anything new about the characters or seeing them grow or change in any way, but we're instead being asked to just sort of luxuriate in everything we already like about them. I mean, I guess we see a softer side of Tywin, but it's not anything that factors in to his later characterization. As for Arya, she just gets to be the cool, tough cookie again, and Tywin essentially rewards her for being a cool, tough cookie, so she isn't really challenged to reflect or grow or change. Thus, the only real adversity she faces at this point in the story is stuff like "Can Arya keep from being recognized by Littlefinger?" -- which is just empty incident, not character development.

 

And, sure, there will be times over the course of the story when I don't mind this sort of vamping, because GRRM's original storytelling wasn't that much stronger and I can't fault the producers all that much for not making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. (Now, there are times when I'll fault them for making a sow's ear into a pile of crap, but that's a rant for another day.) But Arya's storyline in Clash of Kings is so carefully constructed that this kind of careless riffing does it a huge disservice. It's one thing when the show has to streamline stuff because of time, budget, or other logistical pressures, but when they have to hack out crucial elements of a storyline because they wasted their creative efforts on the Adventures of Cool Arya and Grampa Tywin, I'm gonna be pretty pissed.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Dev F

[Lady S.]

I liked the Arya/Tywin scenes well enough, until they kept pushing with Tywin knowing more about her but doing anything about it and just treating her like a dinner guest. People seem to remember that more than his ultimately leaving her to the Mountain, which gives the false impression that Arya's time in Harrenhal wasn't all that bad, and somehow made people less sympathetic to Tyrion's abuse because Tywin had proven he was a nice enough guy deep down or some shit.