Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Which Tyler]

Then the last one is so obvious I barely need to state it:  I thought George R. R. Martin had to be the biggest damned homophobe, for very, very obvious reasons relating to the TV series treatment.  

I remember having to wade in on that opinion once - was kinda a delicate situation in the midst of some pretty libellous stuff being removed. Trying to basically say that the lot of you didn't know what you were talking about (very consciously and deliberately didn't know) whilst not being able to bring anything to the party in terms of evidence to the contrary; and, of course, knowing full well where you were coming from.

That was an interesting time.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Which Tyler

[stillshimpy]

I'm sure there were multiple times when there was material where, really through no actual fault of the Unsullied Group, we were terribly misinformed about the authorial intent on a couple of things.  Whereas I just stated that there for the record, I was personally pretty careful about never saying anything about George Martin as a person, or what he might, or might not have believed.  I confess though, whereas I tried to keep that kind of thing to myself, I did not think he was much of a friend the LGBT community and it was such a pleasant revelation to find out "Wrong, wrong, the opposite of right!" 

 

I do remember at least one time where I was watching that go down and just felt like it was crossing lines like mad on the part of the group.  So I did feel for you guys on that.   What a tough balancing act.  

 

But it was half the "Hey, don't make it personal, you don't know this guy" and I also know enough authors to know they can write something they don't personally believe in order to make a point, to tell a story or to enrich a tale.  The material in the show with sexuality, specifically gay men, was sooooo insulting. Oh gawd, just so horrible.  However, once again I had one thing that helped me personally with that:  I personally knew people who had read the books and really tried to withhold judgment on that, because whereas the stuff in the show really is horrendous -- HBO ought to writhe for shame for allowing some of that stuff -- and I didn't know one way or the other, I did know that my friends and in some cases, my family just would not have read the books if it was really the case.  

 

So I sort of knew, and then sort of didn't know, but always came back to the: People I know and trust would just not read the books if that was the case.   I do admit though, that I think what I ultimately settled on believing had more to do with "Well, maybe he's just a product of his times?  This material started twenty years ago...?"  ....but man, that shit on the show is outrageously insulting.   

 

I guess the better way to state that would be to say that the nicest surprise about the books turned out to be that George R. R. Martin is one of the reasons the LGBT community has really experienced an evolution in terms of acceptance within that time period that the books were released.  His gay characters are really very well wrought and not in the least reductive.   Whereas I was willing to try and accept "Okay, maybe it just isn't as bad on the page as it seems on the show?"  I was not going to guess "Or, you know, the exact, polar opposite." 

 

ETA: And without going into specifics on the material, there was stuff in season five that ....poor Mya....we had an off-board exchange on Facebook where she finally just had to abandon all "Okay, normally, I wouldn't reveal anything at all, but I'm asking you to trust me on this.  I have met this man, he's a lovely person and it is not that way in the books"   and a couple of other things ....and it was solely my belief in Mya as a human being that made me settle my verbose butt down long enough to cool off on that depicted material.   I was livid in that very particular, "wind her up and watch her hop up and down" manner that I have when really, really ticked off. 

So....yes, just finding out "Oh not only were you wrong on that one, you were 180 degrees worth of wrong on your knee-jerk reaction" was....well, a giant relief, but also one of those times where I felt like writing separate notes to each of my friends who had read the books and stating, "Listen, I'm sorry.  I personally know you better than that and I shouldn't have believed in the tiny corners of my mind, that there was any kind of homophobic crap going on in these books."  

 

If anything, Loras, Jon Con and then even Oberyn (whose bisexuality is acknowledged) are among the most honorable characters.  

 

In the show, only Oberyn really gets to inhabit that and ....his head gets splattered, in closeup.   *shakes fist at HBO* 

Edited March 3, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

Yeah, George's gay characters are pretty well-drawn. There's Renly, Loras, Jon Connington and Ducksauce; could be some more, but I forget. Also John the Fiddler, but he's not in the main series. None of those characters are defined by their sexuality and they don't conform to stereotype, except maybe Renly and his preference for bright colours/nice clothes. Also, the Rainbow Guard. I mean, I believe George when he says that that was an accident, but thank God for whoever made the decision at HBO to change that particular detail.

[mac123x]

Catelyn made Ned go to King's Landing?!?

 

On the director’s commentary on the DVD, D&D comment on the framing of that scene, where Ned is in the foreground and Luwyn and Cat are in the background on each side, like the proverbial angel & devil on his shoulders, but you don’t know which one is which.  They thought it was clever framing;  I thought it screamed “film-school student”.

 

Oh there's one that I would not have guessed watching the series:  Varys is a Targaryen supporter.  Keep in mind, in the series, he seemingly dispatches an assassin for Dany.  He seemingly support Illyrio in sending Viserys off with the Dothraki also.  Nothing about that says, "He's a Targ supporter!"  because the TV series, those are your only two options as  Targaryens.  There is no Aegon-Faegon-Pudidng-and-Pie  so there's no way for him to be a Targaryen supporter. 

 

He has that conversation with Illyrio, but since all of his actions actually support taking out the Targs, I thought people who would assert that were just daft.  From the series, there's almost no way to logically reach that conclusion.   Plus Dany in the series brings her dragons back with magic.  So Varys as a Targ supporter was another "What now? That doesn't make sense from this, this and this angle."   

 

I hadn’t read the books before watching S1 (in one long weekend, thanks, Blu-Ray!), but I came away with the impression that Varys was on the Targ side.  I guess I assumed that he sent the poisoner but also sent the warning to Jorah so the poisoner could be stopped.  In his conversation with Illyrio, where Illyrio said that Drogo wouldn’t cross the Narrow Sea until after the baby is born, Varys said, “’Delay’, you say.  ‘Move faster’ I reply.”  Setting up a narrow escape from an assassination attempt certainly motivated Khal Drogo to move faster.  Of course, this series being what it is, the plan immediately went sideways.

 

I was livid in that very particular, "wind her up and watch her hop up and down" manner that I have when really, really ticked off.

 

The way they turned Loras into a stereotype was infuriating. I think I first really noticed it in season 3 with his fixation on the lovely dresses at his upcoming wedding to Sansa.  I mean, ugh.  He certainly wasn’t written that way in season 1; back then he was an example of the chivalrous knightly ideal, who just happened to be in a relationship with another man.

[Dev F]

The way they turned Loras into a stereotype was infuriating. I think I first really noticed it in season 3 with his fixation on the lovely dresses at his upcoming wedding to Sansa.  I mean, ugh.  He certainly wasn’t written that way in season 1; back then he was an example of the chivalrous knightly ideal, who just happened to be in a relationship with another man.

 

Hmm, I'd argue that Loras was less straightforwardly decent in season 1, when he was cheating at tournaments and goading his lover into trying to seize power. It seems like the writers initially intended for him to be more of an active participant in House Tyrell's scheming, before Margaery and Olenna were such big hits and they veered off into "the Tyrell women are the badasses and their men are all emasculated nincompoops." Making Loras into a flamboyant ninny seems to be part and parcel with that.

 

An interesting side note: One of the early scenes that put Loras on the path to stereotype-ville was when he first jumped into the sack with Olyvar, in blatant contradiction of his book characterization as a young man mourning his true love. That scene was written by Bryan Cogman, who has mentioned in interviews that he originally scripted it not as a careless fling but as a grief-stricken attempt to find solace with someone new. Clearly, that element of the story got lost on its way to the screen, never to be seen again.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Dev F

[WSmith84]

Varys' motivations in the show make no sense, if he really is about 'what's best for the realm.'

 

Season 5

 

 

OK, so he (and Illyrio) felt that the reign of Robert Baratheon was doomed; Robert was a bad King, and Joffrey was a worse heir. So their plan was, rather than use Renly, Stannis, or Tommen, is to support a Targaryen-led Dothraki invasion. Forgetting for a moment the fact that the Dothraki would make the Targaryens unpopular and lose them allies in Westeros, the Targaryen that would be sitting the throne afterwards would be Viserys. Anyone who spent 5 minutes with Viserys could tell you that he'd be as bad, maybe even worse, than Joffrey, let alone Robert. Varys' plan seems to have been to start a huge war, put Viserys on the throne and then somehow the realm would be better off. And even if the plan was to put Dany on the throne, the question is why? She'd shown no attributes at the time of this plan that would suggest that she'd make a good Queen. At that point she was just a frightened girl. And if they just want a puppet, because that's what's best for the realm, why go to all the trouble of bringing the Targaryens back rather than just offing Joffrey and Cersei (and Stannis if necessary) and placing pliable Tommen on the throne?

 

[stillshimpy]

That's another reason that I could never understand the assertion that Varys was a Targaryen supporter.  He did dispatch an assassin for Dany and the whole "he also sent the note to Jorah, knowing he would act, knowing he would stop it"  ....that's crediting Varys with prescience and the only way to really have that?   Candle staring, magic, scrying, the list is long but none of it lines up with "Magic.  Thanks a pantload, but I'll pass."  

 

Then when he talks to Ned and says he serves the realm someone must, yeah....witness Joffrey and again, sent out an assassin.  There's just no way to predict another human beings reactions like that.  Or get the timing down that specifically even if he could.  What if Jorah dithered for a moment?  Why is it that we're to believe that Varys somehow knew Jorah was in love with Dany?  

 

Then in the show, he talks to Tyrion about how he won't soon forget the service rendered by Tyrion, etc. etc.  "You saved us"  and Tyrion is a Lannister, so unless Varys can predict the future?  He's just all the over the map.   I found it difficult to take him seriously on anything he said, because he always seemed to be playing the part of some triple agent and over-complicating everything.  For instance, wouldn't it have been simpler to just ....I don't know....not tell Robert that Dany was pregnant, for starters?  To lob the "none of your kids are your actual heirs" grenade sooner?  

 

In the books Varys as a secret Targ supporter makes more sense, because there is a secret Targ wandering in them, or someone who is certainly being put for as one.  Once again there's the "Oh for goodness sake, why didn't they figure out a way to round up Viserys and Dany in some more discreet fashion?" ...but in the books, that again, makes sense because he's supporting his own Targ candidate for the the throne.  Letting Dany perish is an acceptable way of getting his chosen Targ to the throne, working for his own interests and seemingly supporting the Baratheons...all while supporting the guy that only he and Ilyrio know about.  Varys only makes sense if Aegon is in that story.  Doing nothing to help Dany makes sense, because Viserys and Dany have the greater claim on the Throne....so he'd want them to die, be out of the picture. 

 

Varys scenes in which he seemingly declares something only make sense within that moment, but then he'll do something so contradictory that the only conclusion I could reach was:  Oh, well he's lying his nonexistent balls off.  That's the only thing that makes sense.  

 

In the book, the Aegon-Faegon thing makes more sense.  In the series Varys will say one thing, do a complete different thing, say something that yet again contradicts all previously said things and then he'll just be gone from the series for kind of a long time.  The actor is great but in the TV series Varys enters stage right: Says something that really doesn't make a shit-ton of sense and then is gone for about seven episodes.  Lather. Rinse.  Repeat.  

 

Season five

then isn the show when he finally herds Tyrion off to join Dany -- finally....FINALLY....it seems to make sense "huh....maybe he is a Targ supporter and sending Tyrion off to Dany would make his "you saved us, won't forget it" moment make sense" but in the TV series, Tyrion goes to a brothel.  More or less yells "I'm a Lannister and I'm okay!  I drink I'll night and I whine all day!  I make giant scenes because I'm a stranger to subterfuge and want to be abducted!"  after throwing a baby-man tantrum about how he has to get out of that wagon.....Varys mysteriously lets him do this rather than doing the sensible thing:  Drugging him fucking senseless.  Sending whoever is driving the wagon off to procure some wacky weed/a prostitute/the economy load of sedatives/a rubber mallet with which to bonk Tyrion on the head.

 

No.  Instead he takes Tyrion to Broadcast Your Identity Brothel.  Presumably knows he's been Jorah-napped and then....disappears for the rest of the season.

 

The actor is wonderful, but I swear to god I feel sorry for him.  Every time he gets a shooting script he must pour himself a giant drink and wade into whatever he will do, sort of in a vacuum and then he'll just be gone for absolute ages. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Alayne Stone]

The actor for Varys is very good. I actually considered him one of my favorite characters after the first season in part because of his two scenes in the dungeon with Ned Stark. They were so good.

 

But I agree that him being a full on Targaryen, or perhaps more specifically, Daenerys supporter does not make sense in the show. And he was sadly wasted in season 5.

 

Shimpy, we have a lot of the same favorite POVs. I find it very difficult to choose too and have found on subsequent read-throughs that my favorites have actually changed over time. Jaime and Theon became favorites for me on my second read through. My third surprised me completely when I realized how much I enjoyed Catelyn's chapters.

 

Davos, Brienne and Jon have been constants for me though along with Sansa and Tyrion when he's in King's Landing which is when I truly believe he is at his best.

[stillshimpy]

What are everybody else's favorite and least favorite POVs?  I'd genuinely love to know.  

 

I agree with you that Tyrion is at his best in King's Landing (Shae stuff excepted) and I honestly thought he'd end up being a favorite after that was all over with, but it was not to be in this book.  

 

Jaime is a character whose every POV chapter I enjoyed a great deal.  That surprised me.  The only reason I didn't rate him in the top three was that I was stuck between Jaime and Cat and Cat won out in the end result just because she had a full arc.  

Edited March 4, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Depends on what scale we're referring...

 

In terms of gripping narrative and development (what I like from a character) as opposed to "being a fundamentaly good human being" I'd say my top 3 is :

 

- Theon.

- Sandor.

- Jaime.

 

When it comes to the "human being" side, it actually comes down to Davos only... and for some aspects, Asha (she must be awesomely fun to hang around with !) but she has also a lot of "nooooo thanks" traits as well, so... Tyrion would be fun as a drinking buddy, but beyond that, not so much... I guess Cersei could be entertaining in her own way, but well... let's not dwell there (and I didnt even think of any sexual interpretation when I first started that sentence !).

Oberyn and many people from Dorne sound like great guys to hang around with as well... Arianne and the Sand Snakes arent a bunch of rotten eggs in the end... Quentyn is definitly a kind guy (poor mud... he wasnt the fire Daenrys required...)

 

Then I should also make a list for my favourite minor (or even very very minor) characters, those small appearance that do make an impact :

Val, Wyman Manderly Tristifer Botley, Tormund, Daemon Sand, Tyene.... to name just a few...

 

Impossible to rank but deserving a mention for most intriguing character, there comes Melisandre in all her fiery red ! 

 

Then, when it comes to major PoV characters, if I had to give a top 5 it would go as : 

 

- Theon.

- Jon.

- Asha.

- Cersei (she's so batshit it's hilarious !)

- Arya. 

 

But all, in all, very difficult to make lists... in the end every character is deserving of some kind of mention (in whatever way... yeah, even Ramsay, here goes the "paradoxaly most infuriating and unsufferable but strangely mesmerizing character of them all" award !) ^^

[Dev F]

Favorite POV: Bran. Yeah, he reads more like a ten-year-old than a boy of seven and zero. But I'm a sucker for a coming-of-age story, and of all the kids, his is the one I find most interesting. Sansa and Arya, and even Jon and Robb, are each going through a variation on "Be careful what you wish for," whereas Bran's arc is about something quite different: "What if you never get what you wish for? What if you aren't the person you always thought you'd be?" I find that sort of existential riddle quite compelling.

 

Least Favorite POV: Areo Hotah. It's not even close. There's no other POV that I dislike so purely on principle than the one selected specifically because he doesn't know anything interesting or do anything important. He's the living, breathing, boring embodiment of every undramatic indulgence that annoys me in the most recent two books.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Dev F

[stillshimpy]

- Sandor.

 

Sandor?  Sandor had a POV chapter?  I don't recall that....where is it?  

 

Then I should also make a list for my favourite minor (or even very very minor) characters, those small appearance that do make an impact :

Val, Wyman Manderly Tristifer Botley, Tormund, Daemon Sand, Tyene.... to name just a few...

 

Oh there are tons of really fun and interesting side characters, and mentions too.  That's a great list.  

 

You know, Arya's POV's started out as some of my favorites, but she started to lose me in Dance.  

 

There's no other POV that I dislike so purely on principle than the one selected specifically because he doesn't know anything interesting or do anything important. He's the living, breathing, boring embodiment of every undramatic indulgence that annoys me in the most recent two books.

 

Ha!! That very aptly describes Dumbhair for me.  

Edited March 4, 2016 by stillshimpy

[vibeology]

My favourite POVs are Davos, Sansa, Tyrion and Jon.

With Davos, I just like be spending time with the guy. I trust him and like him. There's just a sense that he's a reliable narrator and I can take his observations at face value.

With Sansa, I think she's the most childlike of any of the children in the story. I like that and I like the slow growth we've seen from her. Plus Sansa gets to interact with a great cast of characters. I like the direction her story seems to be going and I love celebrating her growing strength. She's so girly but somehow also heroic. I admire her.

Tyrion is a tough one for me because I don't really like the guy much anymore, but overall Tyrion's story is very exciting. You can't really trust him as a narrator, but I think that's clear early on so I always questioned his views. Some of the best parts of the story are told by Tyrion. Like Sansa, Tyrion gets to interact with so many great characters and it makes for a great read. All of his preparation for Blackwater, the actual battle, his shunting aside when Tywin's arrives is all such a great story. Everything after Tywin's death is weaker, but I wouldn't want to give up the good to get rid of the bad.

Jon is another great character. I like the guy even when he makes decisions I disagree with. Jon also benefits from his plot getting stronger just as other plots are getting weaker. The Wall plot has always been one I enjoyed.

[WindyNights]

That's interesting. I don't mind Areo Hotah even if he's barely a character and Damphair is entertaining.

But Arys Oakheart matches the description of being the embodiment of indulgence to me. He's just so boring and unnecessary.

Favorite PoVs:

Jon

Davos

Cat/Theon

Favorite minor PoVS:

Victarion Greyjoy

Asha Greyjoy

JonCon

The Greyjoys interest me even if they're not necessarily likeable. And Jon Connnington has the honor of being a badass, no nonsense kinda guy and our first gay POV and I'm interested in the Aegon story.

I like the idea that GRRM introduces the ideal hero (Aegon) and the ideal villain (Euron) so late into the story making them both interesting from a meta-point of view.

Edited March 4, 2016 by WindyNights

[Andeleisha]

 

Least Favorite POV: Areo Hotah. It's not even close. There's no other POV that I dislike so purely on principle than the one selected specifically because he doesn't know anything interesting or do anything important. He's the living, breathing, boring embodiment of every undramatic indulgence that annoys me in the most recent two books.

Hahahahahahaha, oh Dev, that is a wonderful description. I can't even argue with your assessment, the guy is basically just a window into Doran, he doesn't have a whole lot of personality. But that didn't bother me at all, and I enjoyed his chapters precisely because it was presented in such an unbiased, factual way. I think that was stylistic choice to underline the discomfort of the revenge plot. Hotah's feelings don't invite the reader to become emotionally invested in the Dornish revenge, it has to stand on it's own merits. Fans obviously do invest in that plotline, but I personally feel like a lot of the emotional heft is driven by Arianne's perspective. 

 

With Davos, I just like be spending time with the guy. I trust him and like him. There's just a sense that he's a reliable narrator and I can take his observations at face value.

 

"Likable" so perfectly captures what is great about the Davos POV. Don't get me wrong, Martin has written some of the most compelling and beautifully crafted character arcs I have ever encountered. Catelyn, Theon, Jaime....they are truly works of art. But they can be pretty uncomfortable to read. Davos is such a treat to read in the midst of all those bleak hopes. 

 

I'm probably one of like five people who loved Dance, and who loved it because of the Tyrion and Dany chapters. While I can see all the flaws that people complain about, the wheel-spinning Martin is doing here just works for me. Tyrion is so volatile and intense it reads like a roller coaster, and I'm a huge geek for administrative minutiae. (Why yes I AM a project manager!) I so empathize with Dany for feeling overwhelmed and beaten down, but I also spend the entire novel thinking about how to re-organize her government. These quirks make it so fun for me to sink in and really engage with the text. 

 

Which reminds me, shimpy, did you check out the Mereenese Blot essays on Dany? It's been linked here in the past but I don't know if you'd been spoiled enough yet :) Here's the link if you haven't: https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-i-who-poisoned-the-locusts/ 

I'm sure you'd love it, this is one of the most well-known and respected metas out there, even GRRM himself has applauded it. 

[mac123x]

Favorite for me is no contest:  Jaime.  He's the only POV that doesn't have a chapter I find dull, and I enjoyed seeing his character growth through his own eyes.  He was a smarmy asshole (as expected) in his first chapter with Brienne, then he steadily grew on me.

 

This will seem weird, but I really liked the Cercei POVs also.  Not that I like her or her actions, but it was fascinating to see the world through her skewed perspective.  As the reader, I could see her mistakes, I could see how other people were playing her, and she never realized it. 

 

Loved some of the minor POVs:  Arianne, Kevan, especially Melisandre.

 

Bored to sobs with Brienne's chapters.  "Have you seen my sister, a girl of three-and-ten" Over and over and again some more. 

[glowbug]

I never really thought about it but after putting way too much thought into this here are my favorite and least favorite POVs.

 

Favorite POVs:

Jamie
Davos

Tyrion (until ADwD when he became one of my least favorite POVs)

 

Honorable Mentions:

Arya (I really enjoyed her chapters until she went to Bravos.)

Jon (I loved his ADwD chapters and enjoyed his chapters in AGoT but he lost me in ACoK and ASoS, although oddly enough he remained one of my favorite characters throughout the entire series.)

Theon (Theon is one of my favorite POV characters from ADwD and those chapters are some of my favorites from the entire series, but I absolutely hated all of his chapters in ACoK.)

Dany (But only her AGoT chapters. After that, see below.)

Ned (He only had one book but I really did enjoy his chapters in AGoT.)

 

Minor POV characters that have potential but they just didn't have enough chapters to be listed above:

Melisandre

Asha Greyjoy

 

Least favorite POVs:

Cersei

Bran (I think he's starting to become more interesting but aside from a few chapters I haven't really enjoyed his story all that much.)

Brienne (I hate to say it because she's one of my favorite characters but her POVs dragged until the last 25% of AFfC)

 

Honorable Mentions:

Dany (With the exception of AGoT her chapters have been among my least favorite of the major POV characters.)

Sam (His chapters are blurring together but I believe he has some interesting ones in ASoS but for the most part I just didn't enjoy his POV much, especially in AFfC.)

 

Minor POVs that I despised but thankfully there weren't enough chapters to be included above:

Aeron Greyjoy

Victarion Greyjoy (I have a feeling after TWoW he'll be listed above because it sounds like he's getting some more chapters.)

 

Sorry, that was probably a little too much detail and I'm pretty sure I named about half the POV characters but the problem is that most of them haven't been consistently good or bad across all of the books so it's hard to choose, hence my complicated categories.

[fantique]

Favourite POVs would be Arya, Cersei and Jaime. They are not my favourites (well Arya is) but they are the POVs that click the best go me. What struck me with those three (others have it too but those really hit close to home) is the fact that I know people like that. Arya is the easiest because we think very similarly, I unfortunately met quite a few Cerseis and I know that person who fucked up and self flagellated for years suffering needlessly but just needed that slap in the face to wake up.

And their themes are just ones that always capture my interest in a tale.

Arya with the identity, death and war. She is our eyes on the ground to witness the horrors of war and I applaud George for not letting with either her or Brienne. I liked the reprieve in feast/dance for the same reasons I liked the Alayne spoiler chapter. She is just discovering this new place, not being pursued, fearing for her life or threatened with rape. Her Cat chapters are delightful to me because she is having fun, interacting with people and just chilling. Even after she is blind, it's still more like this cool learning experience as opposed to a fear inducing one.

Cersei with the self fulfilling prophecies and systemic and internalised misogyny. She set the scene for her downfall, she can't/won't realise it and she thinks all her woes are due to her possessing a vagina. The disastrous meeting of the societal constraint with her personality disorder and lack of actual competence is interesting to watch. It's hard to totally condemn her for the mistakes her environment made her make and seeing her punished for those instead of her real crimes is uncomfortable.

And poor Jaime and the mistakes of youth. He was arrogant and his pride was wounded by Aerys. He was disillusioned with the idea of knighthood and chivalry after serving the most undeserving King. He acted rashly and his arrogance got in the way. Not only did he not NEED to kill Aerys, but he certainly wasn't particularly enlightened to sit on the throne chilling. He spent the rest of his life punishing and condemning himself while trying to commit to his "role". I like his road to redemption, it won't wash out the bad but he is definitely doing some good both for himself and others.

Well, that was long winded...oh well.

[ambi76]

POVs:

1. Jaime (swoooon; just right up my alley) 

2. Sansa (haters gonna hate)

3. Cersei (love that crazy lady and she is the "other half" of Jaime so there)

4. Brienne (that was a very slow warmup for me but now she kinda beats the imp which is mind-boggling)

5. Tyrion (that clever smartass; still needs to be eaten by a dragon)

6. Catelyn (strangely enough & very cool that she's on shimpys list too)

 

Non POV's:

1-6. Loras  (just because)

[WindyNights]

They don't call Areo the Walking Camera for nothing.

Poor Aeron though. No one appreciates him but me. : (

[ambi76]

They don't call Areo the Walking Camera for nothing.

 

Was never that botherd by that/him actually.

 

Poor Aeron though. No one appreciates him but me. : (

 

Is actually my #2 Greyjoy after Theon (never quite got the hang of Asha). His first chapter is annoying for various reasons. But I find the rest quite intriguing.

 

Hmm, I'd argue that Loras was less straightforwardly decent in season 1, when he was cheating at tournaments and goading his lover into trying to seize power. It seems like the writers initially intended for him to be more of an active participant in House Tyrell's scheming, before Margaery and Olenna were such big hits and they veered off into "the Tyrell women are the badasses and their men are all emasculated nincompoops." Making Loras into a flamboyant ninny seems to be part and parcel with that.

 

Yes, Dev F, I love me some slightly sleezy Loras. The emasculated nincompoop not so much. Well, for season 6 there are so many rumors floating around about Loras that this can go either way:

 

They forget the nincompoop Loras and he becomes a hardened prisoner* that later in revenge stabs Cersei to death and twirls his new Mace-ish mustache while glancing evily at the Iron Throne.

 

Or they keep nincompoop Loras who will bitch and whine in prison about the dreadful food and clothes while Margaery skillfully manipulates the Sparrow/Septa Spoonella into believing she's totally converted which will make her brother look especially dumb. Oh ... and then he gets killed in whatever embarrassing fashion.

 

First scenario comes from the rumor that Cersei is definitely toast this season and Loras might be the valonqar. Finn babbling about a great dramatic(!) change in Loras's (so far rather non-existent) character. And that fan that claimed Finn told her about Loras being tortured and raped by the FM.

 

Second scenario comes from the casting announcement (or rather leak so far) of Finn as main character (Iron Fist) in a Marvel Netfix series. Him cutting his hair (which he said is a GoT spoiler) also might mean death for Loras on the show. Of course since he is not much more than a sometimes speaking extra on GoT he might be able to do both series.

 

*prison rape included, because why the fuck not?

Edited March 4, 2016 by ambi76

[Terra Nova]

Mmmmh... it's not a list in order of importance/love, but here we go:

 

Favorite POVs:

- Sansa

- Bran

- Theon (gawd his ADwD arc, it's a thing of beauty)

- Jon

- Davos (he's an honest man with a simple but solid characterization and I like the plot of his arcs; I would say though that the latter is to me slightly more important than Davos as a character per se)

- Eddard

- Brienne (a lovely character with a lovely arc, though I consider her material not strong enough to sustain a whole book or to be the main POV)

- Quentyn

- Catelyn

 

Favorite non POVs:

Sandor, Wyman Manderly, the Reeds, Qhorin's posse, STANNIS!, Tytos Blackwood (a very dignified man), Loras (this is also a reaction to the disgraceful show portrayal of him), Dolorous Edd, Ser Osgrey (he breaks my heart :'( ) and BLOODRAVEN! from the novellas.

 

 

As for the least-favorite, strangely, there is no character I actively hate: sure, Victarion is scum, but I'm not that put off by his chapters - there are so few of them! -, Areo Otah is a walking camera and the closest thing to a third-person narrator, but he's so devoid of personality that he can't truly upset or offend me XD the Ironborns are generally despicable beings and probably the group of people I'm least invested in, and I had a knee-jerk reaction to Asha's musings about the foolishness of her father's plan (hell-oo! That what's Theon kept saying two books ago, you wench!) and now I can't get to truly warm her ^^'

It is I think as if during my first read I implicitly accepted that some chunks of the story could have ended up being not of my liking, but they were still part of a whole, a whole that really captivated me, so yeah, I prepared myself for them and maybe this spared me some let-down.

 

On re-reads Tyrion's pettiness and general wallowing in self-pity truly irked me (and don't you dare lay a paw on my Sansa!), but I still consider him to be a remarkable character in itself. Same for Dany, while I think ten or eleven chapters of her in ADwD are truly too much I never get bored by them. Sure, I also want her as far away from Westeros as possible.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Terra Nova

[vibeology]

They don't call Areo the Walking Camera for nothing.

 

He literally has to be my last favourite POV for this very reason. The Ironborn are awful, but Areo is literally nothing. It was lazy writing and I think George is better than Aero as a character. We couldn't use Doran as the POV character because getting inside his head would ruin the surprise but we needed to be with Doran so George came up with a lazy workaround. Areo could have had a personality, could have thought about what he was seeing, could have actually had a conflict on some level with himself or any character but George didn't step up and give us a reason to be in his POV and that makes it feel like a total waste of my time. What do we really get from Areo's plot that we couldn't get from Arianne's with just a few tweaks? We waste time with a lesser character when those chapters could have gone to further developing Arianne who is the stronger Dornish POV.

 

Obviously I hate the Ironborn. I know Asha gets a pass from most people, but I find her chapters only slightly less awful than Victarion and Aeron.

 

My big transgressive dislike is for Arya's POV. Its not that I dislike Arya, because I do really love her but that her POV, for me, just hard to connect with for a few reasons. The first is Arya rarely feels like a little girl. George needed to age her up because there is almost nothing in her story that makes me think of a nine year old, except the scenes when she's bickering with Sansa. I get that she's supposed to be this strong character, but even her physical capabilities seem unlikely for someone so young. The number of times she bests older boys and grown men physically is crazy high considering she only got a few months of training with Syrio and she's a tiny girl. I get she uses the element of surprise to help her out but it still seems very unrealistic to me.

 

I think there are great things about Arya (watching her break down over the course of the series as the horrors she has seen and the things she has done start to weigh down on her is very impressive writing) and I never groan when I get to an Arya chapter, but I don't get excited to see what's coming next for her. Especially once she leaves Westeros. Her supporting cast in the first three books are all interesting and amazing. She gets to cross paths with so many important people, but then its all Kindly Man and other characters we don't much care about.

I'm looking forward to the next book because the Mercy chapter suggests she'll start interacting with characters we know again. That will at least make her plot more enjoyable for me.

And I never liked Jaqen. I was shocked when I realized he was a fan favourite. I just don't get it at all.

[WSmith84]

I just reread the (the spoiler is the name of character)

Theon

chapter from TWOW. It's so freaking good, it gives me chills whenever I read it.

[Avaleigh]

I have to break it down by book. I'll do a top three for each.

 

AGoT - Catelyn, Dany, Ned (Very tough to leave Sansa off of this list because I loved getting the tourney from her perspective. I ultimately had to go with Ned because of the scene with Cersei in the godswood.) This wasn't my original opinion. This is how I feel after having read the book for a second time. I thought the description of Catelyn traveling up to the Eyrie was riveting.

 

ACoK - Tyrion, Catelyn, Bran (Honorable mention to Arya.)

 

ASoS - Jaime, Davos, Sansa (Very tough to leave Tyrion off of this list because of the scene of him killing Tywin.)

 

AFFC - Jaime, Cersei, Arianne (Honorable mention to Alayne.)

 

ADWD - Jon, Bran, Theon (Not Reek.) (Honorable mentions to Melisandre, Davos, and Barristan.)

 

TWoW - Theon (He easily comes out on top here.)

 

Favorite non PoVs

 

Margaery

Quaithe

Littlefinger

Varys

[Autarch]

Jaime, Arya, Theon, Jon.

Jaime was the one who surprised me most. What a beautifully written character. That's something I never would've believed before I read Storm.

Non Pov would be Sandor, but before my current reread I would never have said that. I'm surprised I'm still picking up on things I missed before, but I felt I finally understood him this time around.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I'll copy Avaleigh's idea and list my favorites by book. 

 

AGOT: 1. Ned 2. Tyrion 3. Daenerys

 

ACOK: 1. Tyrion 2. Arya 3. Davos

 

ASOS: 1. Jaime 2. Jon 3. Arya

 

AFFC: 1. Jaime 2. Cersei 3. Sansa

 

ADWD: 1. Theon 2. Jon 3. Davos

 

Overall: 1. Jaime 2. Jon 3. Tyrion

 

Favorite non-POV: 1. Stannis 2. Varys 3. Dolorous Edd

 

Least Favorite POV: 1. Damphair 2. Hotah 3. Arys/Arianne

[mac123x]

Least Favorite POV: 1. Damphair

Yeah, I know he only has a couple of PoV chapters, but a little of him is more than enough.  “No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair!” [cowardly crowns Euron].  “No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair!”

 

Off topic, that’s another affectation that grates.  “Sit the ___”.   Every time I read that I feel like Truman Capote yelling at Peter Sellers in Murder by Death.  “’On the’!  ‘Sit on the Iron Throne!’  Use your goddamn prepositions!”

Edited March 4, 2016 by mac123x

[glowbug]

Damphair is one of the worst names in the series. I thought it was pronounced Damfair until I read the discussion here. Note to authors everywhere. Do not make up a name with a p and h next to each other (in English) unless you want it read like an f.

Edited March 4, 2016 by glowbug

[Avaleigh]

Least Favorite POVs. I'll pick one from each book.

 

AGoT - Bran (Never would have predicted he'd become a favorite PoV or that I'd look forward to his story more than almost any other in TWoW.) 

 

ACoK - Dany (She basically had one good chapter IMO.)

 

ASoS - I loved everyone's chapters in this book. I'll pick Sam just because I have to pick one and because there's so much annoying repetition with him. 

 

AFFC - I have a tie here. Aeron and Areo. 

 

ADWD - Tyrion. I loved his chapters in the first three books. I couldn't believe how bored and annoyed I was with him throughout this entire book. I am more than okay with the show fastforwarding his storyline and not emphasizing the endless self pitying 'where do whores go?' snoozefest. People complained about the turtles and I'm like, I'll take the turtles over the alcoholism, rape, and masturbatory fantasies of Septa Lemore. 

[Terra Nova]

Damphair is one of the worst names in the series. I thought it was pronounced Dampfair until I read the discussion here. 

 

Oh yes, for me instead it was Ollo Lophand, I thought it was just a surname, albeit pretty out of tune with the rest, until my... third? re-read of ADwD, when I realized it was Lop-Hand ^^' Which is twice befuddling since instead I got Damphair right. Shame on me.

[Andeleisha]

Damphair is one of the worst names in the series. I thought it was pronounced Dampfair until I read the discussion here. Note to authors everywhere. Do not make up a name with a p and h next to each other (in English) unless you want it read like an f. 

Oh god yes. I also had not thought about "damp hair" until this forum! I'd always pronounced in "Dam fair" in my head, because "the Damfair" sounds like a self-important religious title. Especially with the ph in there, I thought it was the name for the Drowned God's high priest. He's referred to so frequently as "the Damphair" it never occured to me that it could be descriptive. Who the hell names anyone THE Damp Hair? 

Edited March 4, 2016 by Andeleisha

[WindyNights]

Oh god yes. I also had not thought about "damp hair" until this forum! I'd always pronounced in "Dam fair" in my head, because "the Damfair" sounds like a self-important religious title. Especially with the ph in there, I thought it was the name for the Drowned God's high priest. He's referred to so frequently as "the Damphair" it never occured to me that it could be descriptive. Who the hell names anyone THE Damp Hair?

The ironborn are a weird people.

One thing I wish GRRM would do is put in a bit more lesbian characters.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, to add to the "Don't use a ph in the middle of a name...."  ....Since the only Steve I know is actually Stephen?  Yeah, it's just a bad plan.  DamVair.   

 

Now, I did actually get both Damp hair and Lop Hand right off the back and just kept waiting for someone named Stinkypants the Latrine Tester to show up , or something.  It's not just that it can be a little confusing pronunciation wise, it's that it's a Tad Onthenose, Lord  Obviouston of Tryharder on Wouldyou.  

 

Oh by book?  I have different favorites then:  

 

A Game of Thrones:  1. Ned, of course it would be Ned for me.    2.  Surprisingly Jon  3. Arya because she has moments of being a believable little girl with tones of emergent badass mainly as a result of trauma. 

A Clash of Kings: 1. Tyrion was at his most interesting for me.   2.  Catelyn  because she's just in a hell of her own making and it just keeps getting worse, every time she tries to alleviate some of the hell.  

A Storm of Swords: 1.  Jon, he just kept getting more interesting and the material for his story was a lot richer than I thought it would be.   2. Arya because so much of what she does before she crosses the sea is interesting and formative in a believable way.   3. Sansa partially because the juxtaposition with Arya is really Stark (hee) and well done.  (this is the book I'd need more than three favorites, it was a good book). 

 

A Feast for Crows: 1. Bran as he makes his way North is some really interesting material and everything with Coldhands fascinated me  2.  Arianne and much of the Dorne plot  3.  Jaime for all the surprises his character development held.   4.  Brienne, what can I say?  I'm a sucker for good people in terrible situations and see what they do to hold onto their honor, how they parse things out in their heads, etc.  
 

ADWD: 1.  Jon because the build up towards the end is amazing and well-earned.  Best part of the book I thought.   2. Davos, because that was an awesome chapter altogether, also, I almost wish there was a picture of my face when the executioner told him the ax's name, because good lord, that was funny if you're me.  3.  Theon at Winterfell was fascinating but Theon, not Reek.   4.  Asha, because again, she has a fucking sense of humor, which is something Martin needs to allow more women to have.  5. Jon Con because that was really interesting and more than a couple of really surprising things happened in them. 

 

Honorable mention to Melisandre because she surprised me the most out of all the chapters.   Also poor, doomed Kevan Lannister.  

[Mya Stone]

Teehee, Bran is missing in AFFC, shimpy, but I admire your shoehorning in. ;)

[Avaleigh]

I was just about to say, I know it's been awhile since I read AFFC but I didn't remember Bran having any chapters. 

 

I agree with you Shimpy that Kevan had a great epilogue. It's my favorite epilogue in the series. My favorite prologue goes to ACoK.

[Mya Stone]

I was just about to say, I know it's been awhile since I read AFFC but I didn't remember Bran having any chapters.

I agree with you Shimpy that Kevan had a great epilogue. It's my favorite epilogue in the series. My favorite prologue goes to ACoK.

Those are my favorite prologue and epilogue too.

Although honorable mention goes to Lady Stoneheart's first appearance.

[stillshimpy]

Wait, which book has Coldhands?  That wasn't Dance, was it?  Was that all in a Clash of Kings?? Yeah, reading them all back to back I apparently have lost track of who goes where! 

 

ETA:  Oh duh...that's A Storm of Swords then?  Gotcha.  

 

Yeah well, his POV was fun in one of those books with all the pages.  

 

You know....the long one ;-) 

Edited March 5, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

ASoS had Coldhands IIRC. 

[WindyNights]

@Shimpy Huh. Is Jon Snow one of your favorite characters?

[DigitalCount]

Oh god yes. I also had not thought about "damp hair" until this forum! I'd always pronounced in "Dam fair" in my head, because "the Damfair" sounds like a self-important religious title. Especially with the ph in there, I thought it was the name for the Drowned God's high priest. He's referred to so frequently as "the Damphair" it never occured to me that it could be descriptive. Who the hell names anyone THE Damp Hair? 

It's even better if you mentally pronounce it "Dom-fere" (complete with slightly French-sounding trilled r at the end). Prior to registering on w.arg, that's essentially where I was, but at the same time, I'm also the guy who was waiting with bated breath for Hai-may Lannister, the Kingslayer.

[Terra Nova]

Teehee, Bran is missing in AFFC, shimpy, but I admire your shoehorning in. ;)

 

Well, Shimpy said that Storm needed more than three best POVs, so... ;)

[Haleth]

It's even better if you mentally pronounce it "Dom-fere" (complete with slightly French-sounding trilled r at the end). Prior to registering on w.arg, that's essentially where I was, but at the same time, I'm also the guy who was waiting with bated breath for Hai-may Lannister, the Kingslayer.

LOL  I know someone who spells his name that way and pronounces it Jamie, so I never questioned it.  I am kind of surprised at how many of you all didn't catch on to Damp-Hair.  Asshai, on the other hand...

[stillshimpy]

Boy even in the Unsullied caught the "Uh....Asshai...really?  Ass High.  Okey dokey."  

 

 

 

@Shimpy Huh. Is Jon Snow one of your favorite characters?

 

I know, right?  I'll just be over here dining on my hat if anyone needs me.  Also, Stannis isn't someone I want to squish with a falling safe.  

 

I think it was Triskan who had PM'd me at the start of last season asking if I was really as bored with The North storyline as I said I was and I admitted I played up my Stannis dislike a little because I had fun teasing Stumbler with it, but otherwise I wasn't exaggerating my boredom, pretty much at all. 

 

Cut to Dance and cue me "Jesus, enough with Tyrion and Dany, can we please get back to The Wall already???"  

 

In my defense, pretty much everything with the North is the show's weakest link.  They either don't care for that story, or there are shooting concerns with having to try and do much of it. because right on down the line, it's been pretty dull with giant things left out.   I know scope is always going to be lost form page to screen unless there's a feature-length budget involved, a la all the Tolkien books productions, but still the Wildlings on the screen are about seven people with questionable hygiene and cumbersome wardrobe (although watching the running when they were all the Stay Pufft Marshmallow Thing was wonderful)  and The North Remembers....to be Entirely Useless while proving that Loyalty Doesn't Exist.  

 

When they weren't biffing the scale of everything, they made weird character choices:  On the show, the men of the Wall are disgusting, almost to a man.  The only ones who weren't are essentially dead.   It is no better than a prison colony ....without guards.   Lord of the Flies with Frostbite.  

 

Mance's characterization was changed to ....whatever the hell Ciarian Hinds was doing throughout.  He went from a roguish minstrel and badass fighter, with enough charisma to impress someone like Tormund, to a guy who always looked like he desperately need the economy bottle of TUMS to hand.  The only time Hinds injected any sort of sense of humor into the character, or actual dynamic personality was in the scene where he finds out he's to be burned to death.  One great facial expression and line delivery does not Mance Rayder make.  

 

I don't know what the gig was there.  It might have been a miserable shoot (sort of looked like it probably was).  It might have been that he wasn't their first choice, knew it and just didn't put his back into it.  I love Hinds, he's a true talent, so I have no idea why he basically showed up to work exactly once and otherwise took the AT&T express to performance style choices.  

 

Kit Harrington has never been the problem.  Although some of the stuff he was handed in season one was just thankless for anyone and much of his story line with Ygritte suffered from the same thing his first season story did.  In season one they externalized Jon's internal thought process -- which the book character consistently chooses to think one thing and say another because he knows that's the better choice -- and so he was whiny to an almost unbearable degree.   In the Ygritte and Wall storyline they -- for obvious reasons, unless they were going to have him talking to Ghost about his feelings or something equally labored -- they had to internalize everything that goes through his mind, leaving the poor actor with the horrendous task of having to Eye Act all the time.  So first season ...whine-whine-whine....second season let us never speak of that endless Craster story, it was just fucking interminable....third season Emo Expression as his only performance options.  

 

Season five

and if you all recall at least one third of the reason that I even ended up here was that I was FURIOUS with the show for the way Jon was killed onscreen, specifically because I'd finally gotten a chance to like him and I cried all over my dog,   So I did like Jon by the end of season five.  Then they killed him in front of my face, which by the way?  Enough of a fucking abusive behavior pattern on the part of the show "You like this character, right?  Splendid!  Mission accomplished!  Call in team slaughter-for-optimum-viewer-horror!" that I didn't realize "Oh he's probably not dead".  Melisandre on the show hasn't brought people back from the dead, that was a Dondarrion thing and he's the only person it happened to, so I didn't freaking know it was like the Oprah "look under your chairs!" gift of life.  In the show, Jon's not a warg.   I find it kind of hilarious that people are so amused by the fact that I didn't realize Jon wasn't a goner.  Why in the world would I?  The show constantly kills off nearly main characters.  

 

It was finding Stannis's story interesting that came as the much bigger shock to me. personally. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Ashara Payne]

I heard that Dominic West was asked to play Mance, but turned it down because it meant too much time away from his family.

[Haleth]

When I'd first heard that Ciaran Hinds was cast I was so excited, thinking about him sneaking around Winterfell, killing off wayward Freys.  He has the gravitas to play a former crow/leader of the Wildlings/secret assassin.  But?  Never mind.

[Lady S.]

ASoS had Coldhands IIRC.

As far as Bran's PoV goes, Coldhands is in only his last Storm chapter and then his first two Dance chapters. But Bran's third and final Dance chapter is the one with all the Winterfell visions, so I think most people would prefer Bran's Dance arc to his Storm arc.

[WindyNights]

Boy even in the Unsullied caught the "Uh....Asshai...really? Ass High. Okey dokey."

I know, right? I'll just be over here dining on my hat if anyone needs me. Also, Stannis isn't someone I want to squish with a falling safe.

I think it was Triskan who had PM'd me at the start of last season asking if I was really as bored with The North storyline as I said I was and I admitted I played up my Stannis dislike a little because I had fun teasing Stumbler with it, but otherwise I wasn't exaggerating my boredom, pretty much at all.

Cut to Dance and cue me "Jesus, enough with Tyrion and Dany, can we please get back to The Wall already???"

In my defense, pretty much everything with the North is the show's weakest link. They either don't care for that story, or there are shooting concerns with having to try and do much of it. because right on down the line, it's been pretty dull with giant things left out. I know scope is always going to be lost form page to screen unless there's a feature-length budget involved, a la all the Tolkien books productions, but still the Wildlings on the screen are about seven people with questionable hygiene and cumbersome wardrobe (although watching the running when they were all the Stay Pufft Marshmallow Thing was wonderful) and The North Remembers....to be Entirely Useless while proving that Loyalty Doesn't Exist.

When they weren't biffing the scale of everything, they made weird character choices: On the show, the men of the Wall are disgusting, almost to a man. The only ones who weren't are essentially dead. It is no better than a prison colony ....without guards. Lord of the Flies with Frostbite.

Mance's characterization was changed to ....whatever the hell Ciarian Hinds was doing throughout. He went from a roguish minstrel and badass fighter, with enough charisma to impress someone like Tormund, to a guy who always looked like he desperately need the economy bottle of TUMS to hand. The only time Hinds injected any sort of sense of humor into the character, or actual dynamic personality was in the scene where he finds out he's to be burned to death. One great facial expression and line delivery does not Mance Rayder make.

I don't know what the gig was there. It might have been a miserable shoot (sort of looked like it probably was). It might have been that he wasn't their first choice, knew it and just didn't put his back into it. I love Hinds, he's a true talent, so I have no idea why he basically showed up to work exactly once and otherwise took the AT&T express to performance style choices.

Kit Harrington has never been the problem. Although some of the stuff he was handed in season one was just thankless for anyone and much of his story line with Ygritte suffered from the same thing his first season story did. In season one they externalized Jon's internal thought process -- which the book character consistently chooses to think one thing and say another because he knows that's the better choice -- and so he was whiny to an almost unbearable degree. In the Ygritte and Wall storyline they -- for obvious reasons, unless they were going to have him talking to Ghost about his feelings or something equally labored -- they had to internalize everything that goes through his mind, leaving the poor actor with the horrendous task of having to Eye Act all the time. So first season ...whine-whine-whine....second season let us never speak of that endless Craster story, it was just fucking interminable....third season Emo Expression as his only performance options.

Season five

and if you all recall at least one third of the reason that I even ended up here was that I was FURIOUS with the show for the way Jon was killed onscreen, specifically because I'd finally gotten a chance to like him and I cried all over my dog, So I did like Jon by the end of season five. Then they killed him in front of my face, which by the way? Enough of a fucking abusive behavior pattern on the part of the show "You like this character, right? Splendid! Mission accomplished! Call in team slaughter-for-optimum-viewer-horror!" that I didn't realize "Oh he's probably not dead". Melisandre on the show hasn't brought people back from the dead, that was a Dondarrion thing and he's the only person it happened to, so I didn't freaking know it was like the Oprah "look under your chairs!" gift of life. In the show, Jon's not a warg. I find it kind of hilarious that people are so amused by the fact that I didn't realize Jon wasn't a goner. Why in the world would I? The show constantly kills off nearly main characters.

It was finding Stannis's story interesting that came as the much bigger shock to me. personally.

I'm sad two of the best Stannis-Davos quotes never made it on there:

"There is much I do not understand, I have never pretended elsewise. I know the seas and rivers, the shapes of the coast, where the rocks and shoals lie. I know hidden coves where a boat can land unseen and I know a king protects his people or he is no king at all."

— Ser Davos Seaworth

"Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

-King Stannis Baratheon

[Terra Nova]

Even Stannis' decision to go to the Wall was changed to Melisandre explaining him what to do and why, so that once again he acted like a spineless puppet. The only time show!Stannis acts on his own volition is usually to grab Mel's ass or to beg her to make some other shadowbaby *wink wink nudge nudge*

[WSmith84]

Not to mention that Stannis decides to burn his nephew after only one of Mel's leech targets dies. Imagine the shock; in a war between four Kings, one of them dies! In a war! And the King that died was on the losing side, murdered by his spurned allies! Must be magic.

 

That's also what made (season 5)

Stannis' decision to burn Shireen even more badly-written. Balon was still up and kicking, so Mel has, at best, a 75% success rate (if you include Renly) and a 66% success rate with the leeches. You'd think Stannis would need a better CV than that. Also, Stannis NEVER F*&^ING ASKS WHAT BURNING HER WILL DO! Jesus show, you could at least make Stannis not look completely useless. Some questions he should have asked are: 'what will burning her do?', 'why does burning her only melt the snow when having sex with you kills an enemy King?, 'why can't we just leech some of her blood and name Roose and Ramsey as targets?', 'why couldn't you foresee the attack on our camp in the flames by Ramsey and his twenty good Rambo/Solid Snake/Predator mixtures?' etc.