Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[ambi76]

Well, congrats GRRM for making me "like" Walder Frey with this story. Since I'm obviously really fun at parties, the utter fanservice of Dunk hating on toddler Walder wishing to throw him down a well etc. really pissed me off to that point for some reason.

 

The prophetic Targ dreams are always rather creepy, but the dream Dunk has of him and Egg drowning in quicksand is also rather interesting (or was that already in The Sworn Sword?).

 

Also there is something about

Daemon besides being a Blackfyre-Targ

that shimpy didn't mention yet. Um, not sure how to bring this up delicately. Spoiler for shimpy or is it?

Maybe shimpy will have more compassion for people who missed Renly/Loras after this?

Edited December 16, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

I think your last point is the one that has the most resonance, Delta, at least for me. Mystery Knight

since Martin is clearly using these stories as an opportunity to flesh out the Targaryens, I should have realized, "There's a Targ!" rather than thinking, "So is he a Stark? He doesn't seem like a Stark. Is he a Lannister? But I already met Twyin's grandmother and the Lannisters weren't the scary force then that they are in the novels, this is pre Tywin's Raining Down Like the Last Days of Pompeii moves. Hmmm."

The thing that Martin cut himself off from in telling the GoT stories was an exploration of the Targaryens beyond Dany. Hell he seemingly makes her barren in the first book after a failed, magically interfered with pregnancy and he's killed off Viserys too. So I can understand why he wanted to flesh them out a bit more. They are a more than creepy family: institutionalized incest not recommending a family line to most people. That's an aspect that the Dunk and Egg stories sort of try to two-step around very quickly, by having so much of the Meet the Targaryen action center on people who did marry a sibling or who were declared legitimate on a King's deathbed. So a lot of it romps merrily away from the "Targaryens: Keeping it in the family to a fully disturbing degree" story note.

 

Since I'm obviously really fun at parties, the utter fanservice of Dunk hating on toddler Walder wishing to throw him down a well etc. really pissed me off to that point for some reason.

As he behaved horribly at a wedding, no less. However, I didn't mind it and got a grim chuckle out of it.

ETA: Ambi, you should probably spoiler tag that second paragraph, in case anyone doesn't want

who the Mystery Knight is spelled out for them quite that clearly

Edited December 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

Regarding GRRM liking the "king pretending to be a minstrel / commoner" thing, he does go overboard with it.  Mance Rayder infiltrated Winterfell when King Robert came to visit back in GoT (he told Jon about it when Jon joined the wildlings).  In a similar vein, Lady Merryweather tried to get Cercei to play hooky from court and dress as serving girls to go out on the town.

 

I just figured he was a huge fan of the scene from Henry V where the king mingles with the troops before Agincourt.

[stillshimpy]

I just figured he was a huge fan of the scene from Henry V where the king mingles with the troops before Agincourt.

That would be six of one, half a dozen of the other, mac as Shakespeare adhered rather closely to the favorable political winds of the time and he was writing in Tudor times. So Henry V wasn't inspired by Henry V, but rather Henry VIII ...and that brings us back to do...A Winter's Tale being another example of the "Aha...spot the Tudor influence!" which is to say nothing of Richard III's dastardly turn on the page.

Edited December 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

@shimpy Who Maynard Plumm is won't be answered directly but he's supposed to

be Bloodraven in disguise

(should be fine to click if you don't mind knowing)

Funnily enough, the Targs you've meet in these stories

that aren't Blackfyres

have parents that aren't brother-sister related. The Targs did a lot of outbreeding since Aegon the Unworthy.

Daeron the Good married a Martell and his son Maekar married a Dayne. So Daeron the Drunk, Aerion, Aemon and Egg have a bit less in-bred genes than the Targs that came before them.

Edited December 16, 2015 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

Just a small nitpick: Rhaegar mingling with the smallfolk is show only: nothing in the text thus far suggests he had such sympathy for commoners.

 

Fan musing: Jaime got the bear dream while sleeping against the stump of a heart tree (ETA: my bad, it's a weirwood yet again), Theon in Winterfell slept in the weirwood bed of Ned and dreamt of the feast of the dead, saw Robb's death and even people he shouldn't be able to recognize (Lyanna, dressed in white and with the skirts spattered in gore, nonetheless), so it has been speculated that weirwoods possess some sort of innate magic. Most other dreams, safe for those of Stark kids, are more some glimpse in the character's subconscious, I would say.

 

Also, Shimpy, Maynard Plumm features seemingly shifting and blurring plus the exchange:

"We'd all be bastard sons of old King Aegon if half these tales were true."

"And who's to say we're not?" Ser Maynard quipped.

 

DO have a pretty clear payoff ;) It's as certain as it could be Martin-style, without writing it explicitly.

 

Delta, (Mystery Knight, all the clues are in the text but someone may have missed them)

yes, I think it's more than clear he's Bloodraven. He even disguises himself as some other Targ descendant

Edited December 16, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ImpinAintEasy]

Mystery Knight spoilers:

Some clues to Maynard = Bloodraven(copied from a post on AFOIAF):

 

 

- He knows about who Egg is, and he calls Ser Duncan by his true name - "Dunk".

 

- When Dunk first saw him after throwing the lordling down a well, he initially looks like a hooded figure with one bright eye: "Dunk whirled. Through the rain, all he could make out was a hooded shape and a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder.".

 

- As Dunk and Plumm were walking back, Dunk notices that "there was something queer about the cast of Ser Maynard's features. The longer Dunk looked, the less he seeemed to see."

 

- Afterwards, Plumm is talking to Dunk, and he says "...wondering if he had chosen the wrong side and how much Bloodraven knows of this conspiracy. The answer to that last is 'quite a lot.' Plumm chuckled. "

 

- When Bloodraven appears outside the walls of the castles, Dunk and his friends "had looked for Ser Maynard to join them, but Plumm had melted away sometime during the night.".

 

- When the knights were around the campfire in an early chapter, they were talking about Aegon the Unworthy and his bastards. The following was said: ""We'd all be bastard sons of old King Aegon if half these tales were true." "And who's to say we're not?" Ser Maynard quipped."

 

- They both use the phrase "nest of adders", and are one of the few characters to do so.

Edited December 16, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[Delta1212]

Okay, so that was a moment in the story that I was just frustrated by Mystery Knight

when Maynard Plumm's features are indiscernible it was a case of "oh jeez, there's more to this? This is a fairly knotted tale already" and all I could think was that it was a Faceless Man and I wondered why in the hell a Faceless Man was there. Then there was seemingly no payoff to that and Bloodraven was at the bloody gate the next thing I knew.

One thing though is that I recognize that Martin constructed the tale to have things to mull over and savor. That since it was put out between books, that sort of "Jeez, you're being awful cutesy here, aren't you?" and then it came to me that if he was releasing this story in between books -- and not just in between books, for readers who are used to 700 * 800 pages worth of book -- then Martin was being pretty deliberate by seeding clues throughout. Although I appreciate the effort, because that kind of thing isn't easy to write, I think that might have added to the frustration of his audience while waiting for another book

Realistically even story tellers need to emerge from their made-up worlds for long periods of time. To sort of stretch out their mental muscle and do things gladly rather than as an obligation. It is one of the perils of telling a serialized story. As expectations rise, so does outside pressure, none of which is conducive to "I'm going to write a fabulous, fantastical tale." So I get why Martin took these kind of breaks. A way to get away from it all, while still creating and having fun within his own world. I do wonder what the overall reception was and judging by how many people here haven't read them, I think the answer is safe to guess as being: mixed.

I think a not-insignificant factor in why many people hadn't read the Dunk & Egg stories previously is the fact that, until this year, the only way to read any of them was to track down copies of the short story anthology books they were a part of. So instead of one book of three Westeros-centric short stories, you get three books of mostly entirely unrelated stories you have to buy just to get those three.

In my case, that normally wouldn't be all that off-putting, since I can read quite a lot fairly quickly and tend to enjoy anthology books, but it was an extra hurdle that I just didn't have quite enough interest to go out of my way to clear up till now.

[stillshimpy]

Aha, I guess I had been sort of assuming they came out in little paperbacks or something. That's kind of...harsh...for fans. Were all the stories by Martin?

So what I've been taking as a nice gesture to fans was really a marketing device? Okay.

[Haleth]

Not to mention stalling.

[Ashara Payne]

I believe they did publish them separately as graphic novels, but I waited for Knight of the Seven Kingdoms after much procrastinating and listening to the audiobooks on YouTube. The Princess and the Queen and The Rogue Prince are still only available as part of anthologies AFAIK.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Ashara Payne

[chandraReborn]

They were part of anthologies he'd been asked to contribute towards. It's a pretty standard thing for writers to do. 

[Andeleisha]

I think a not-insignificant factor in why many people hadn't read the Dunk & Egg stories previously is the fact that, until this year, the only way to read any of them was to track down copies of the short story anthology books they were a part of. So instead of one book of three Westeros-centric short stories, you get three books of mostly entirely unrelated stories you have to buy just to get those three.

 

This. It is still not clear to me how many short stories there even ARE. Are they all in the one book that GRRM was promoting on his blog recently? NO IDEA. (You guys don't have to answer this for me, just pointing out that they have been extremely poorly promoted.) 

 

I've always been under the impression that while the short stories can enrich the main books, they are not required reading by any means. 

[Haleth]

I haven't read any of them. I'm sure they provide a lot of insight but I don't care that much. Martin isn't getting another dime of my money till he finishes ASOIAF.

[stillshimpy]

Ha! Well all righty then.

Okay, so onto Dance for me. Here's hoping that it moves a little more swiftly, at least at first :-)

[Delta1212]

Feast took me over a month and Dance took me four days. Granted, I'd had more of a break between Feast and Dance than between any of the others because it wasn't out yet (though I was still only waiting a couple months instead of the years many people had), so having some breathing space probably helped. Still, I think Dance moves at a bit more of a clip, even if it still has more in common with Feast than Storm.

[jellyroll2]

So excited for all the twists and "wait, what?!" moments coming for shimpy in Dance.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so Varamyr Sixskins saw Bran, Meera and Jojen on the Elk? That was fun. Other than that, that was a very creepy and eerie prologue. So he's a warg who is also a skinchanger and it's considered particularly evil to take over another person. Bran is a skinchanger too then, because he was able to take over Hodor.

That was an interesting chapter, although it was oddly heart-breaking. It's odd because I know I shouldn't actually feel sorry for Varamyr. Apparently he'd been psychotic since he was little and killed his brother for the terrible sin of thriving and because he was jealous.

That was a very atmospheric prologue. I see now that I have a giant Tyrion chapter ahead of me. Well...let's see how this goes!

[Andeleisha]

So here is a fun piece of fandom trivia: 

 

In the Varamyr chapter you just read, he mentioned a character in passing named Harma Dogshead. She was also mentioned in one of Jon's chapters back in SOS. She's one of Mance's captains, and she cuts the head off a new dog every couple weeks which she carries around on a pole. (I know you would hate her.) I can't even remember if we see her in the background of a scene is how minor of a character she is. 

 

Anyway, earlier this year, there was a lot of controversy over the Hugo Awards -- don't know if you were aware of it? (Not going to go into detail here, don't think it's appropriate forum for that!) One of the groups involved called themselves the "Sad Puppies" and GRRM was an outspoken participant in the conversations. There were a lot of jokes on his blog (made by others, not him) about people dressing up as Harma Dogshead for the con. 

 

Just thought it was a funny anecdote :) 

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, that's not funny. I doubt anyone would actually think I'd find it so. I spend about half of everyday working with dog rescue groups. I think the inclusion of animal torture in entertainment is far from amusing. I don't know what the Sad Puppies are or what got their knickers in a bunch, but this week alone I've been trying to get charges brought against one guy who shot a puppy in the face and another who shot a dog to death for urinating in the house. This isn't funny, By the way, it's a completely futile attempt, because farmers out here shoot their dogs all the time. The puppy shot in the face lived, by the way. It's Wednesday so I don't do a lot of laughing about funny, funny dog killing.

I remember the character and yes, I hate her. Frankly I'm wildly unimpressed with how often Martin feels the need to go to that "I'll upset you by killing dogs" well. His obsession with dog murder is about as charming as his thing for lactating breast. In the prologue he visited both again.

Anyway, onward.

So Tryion's clearly woken up on the wrong side of the cask, although I did have to sort of chuckle, between the Brave Little Tailor act of Varamyr's Dad and then Tryion's cock-report along with menacing the poor girl whose lot in life doesn't suck enough without Tyrion thinking it's appropriate to torment her, it was at least a darkly humorous case of "....and he's baaaccccckkk, now with more misogyny because that's what someone would do upon finding out they had horribly wronged a girl who had genuinely been the only person to love him."

However, the plot is more interesting already and I did genuinely laugh at Tryion revisiting the room where he had been decanted.

ETA: Admittedly, you'd have no real way of knowing that that's what I spend my volunteer time doing, but for the record? I have too many real life reasons to just really not get a good giggle out of anything that reminds me of this kind of stuff. Last week someone surrendered a Great Dane who weighs 38 pounds (he's getting bigger, he has a good foster mom), someone did that to him on purpose. I'm sorry, but I am genuinely humorless about this kind of stuff.

ETA2: Okay, I caught Mya on Facebook and asked her what in the world I was missing that anyone thought I'd think decapitating dogs was the stuff of giggles and she explained to me what the Sad Puppies are. Eh...yeah, I really wish Martin would find a different "trying to press your emotion button" than having really bad shit happen to dogs. I just try to plow through it and wonder how he got so attached to it as a tool in his writing.

But I get why it might have seemed like it would be funny to me, because ...shocker...I'm also a big liberal so ....uh...yeah, I wouldn't like the Sad Puppies either (and still hate the whole "Oh shit, there's a dog in the story? This won't end well" thing).

Edited December 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

In this chapter, Tyrion is basically in

"And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,

To entertain these fair well-spoken days,

I am determined to prove a villain

And hate the idle pleasures of these days." mode.

[stillshimpy]

Nicely done, Windy Nights :-) and I am sorry about how stiff and shirty I get about anything having to do with animals being hideously killed.

There are several go-tos in Martin's writing that I have just learned to try and motor through, to get the things I genuinely enjoy. But between the vomit, breasts (referred to as everything bovine related, no less) multiple dog murders (now with axes...good fucking grief) Tyrion's penis report and then....the very first instance of "Huh, so that's where all the food descriptions start coming in, I take it?" the start of Dance was like running the gauntlet of the "Just plow through to daylight!"

It oddly worked. Varamyr -- who I hated on multiple levels -- was oddly sorrowfully compelling. I did feel sorry for the little psycho and kept being surprised by that.

Then I weirdly like Illyrio which was an even weirder sensation. This is the guy who helped broker the selling of Dany's person. Yet, he was interesting and weirdly sympathetic to Tyrion. So it was the stuff Martin does best, cheek-by-jowl with the "Oh man, I wish he'd drop this favorite saw of his."

Edited December 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Alayne Stone]

I'm not a fan of anything involving animal maiming or torture and the greatest horror of the Red Wedding for me was definitely what was done to Grey Wind (and Robb afterwards). So I can empathize with your stance for sure.

 

The Varamyr brings up a lot of questions as to just how much of a skinchanger remains in their avatar when they pass on as well as brings back the question regarding the Others and whether they bring the cold, or whether the cold brings them.

 

Very atmospheric, like you said, and one of my favorite prologues (probably falls second only to the Dragonstone prologue in Clash).

[Brn2bwild]

Nicely done, Windy Nights :-) and I am sorry about how stiff and shirty I get about anything having to do with animals being hideously killed.

 

Completely with you, Shimpy.  It's hard enough reading about cruelty done to animals in real life without also reading it in print.  God, every other person in Westeros is a monster... and I ain't even talking about the wights.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[DigitalCount]

So we're in Dance territory? Hurray! (I had to stop myself from saying Yatta here for some bizarre reason)

[Terra Nova]

Another good point in Varamy's prologue is his attempt to take the spearwife body: it is nicely written and shows how it can't be done without permament damages to the host.

Also, but I remember this being explained by Protar back while reading Clash and Storm, skinchanger is who has the ability to inhabit another body, with wargs specifically focusing on wolves. All wargs are skinchanger, but in contrary is not always true (I guess it goes with personal tastes plus the superstition towards some animals).

 

ETA: Ah, while in the metro I glimpsed something 'familiar' on the Kobo of the girl next to me, and as soon as I see some writing my brain crave for reading: "When Varamyr pushed at it, the snow crumbled still soft and wet. Outside, the night..." It's a sign from the Old Gods!

Edited December 17, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Protar]

Glad we're moving into Dance territory. A lot of people don't like it, but it's generally better received than Feast and for me it is my second or third favourite book depending on how nostalgic I'm feeling for the first book. Lots of exciting stuff to look forward to!

[mac123x]

"Huh, so that's where all the food descriptions start coming in, I take it?"

 

Yeah, food porn becomes more obvious in this chapter.  He had a lot of it during the Purple Wedding (77 dishes, though thankfully he didn't describe them all), but that was interspersed with dialog and action.  Here, there's almost a whole page of nothing but food.  I counted 16 different dishes, not including between-course palate cleansers and wine.  Granted, Illyrio is a gourmand, so it's not surprising how much he eats, but for me most of the food descriptions range from unappealing to frankly nauseating.  Veal cutlets blanched in almond milk, stuffed swan, bleh.  (Blanching in almond milk is a recurring theme, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's some fan theory about it having some deeper meaning)

 

One tidbit from that chapter that intrigues me is the statue Tyrion saw from his window.  Illyrio says that it's a statue of him when he was sixteen (sorry, six-and-ten).  I found it implausible that a 16 year old bravo would a) commission a statue of himself and b) have the money to pay for it.  Maybe the artist paid him to pose for it and Illyrio bought it much later after he'd become wealthy and fat.  Book 5 Spoiler

Alternatively, the statue isn't him, but actually Young Griff.  I'm in the camp that Illyrio's second wife Serra was a female descendant from the Blackfyres and Young Griff is their son.

 

I also loved how quickly Illyrio dismissed the idea of crowning Myrcella.  "To crown her is to kill her.  Dorne might rise for her, but Dorne is not enough."  A third party from across the Narrow Sea sees things more clearly than Arianne and the Sand Snakes.

[Delta1212]

Yeah, food porn becomes more obvious in this chapter. He had a lot of it during the Purple Wedding (77 dishes, though thankfully he didn't describe them all), but that was interspersed with dialog and action. Here, there's almost a whole page of nothing but food. I counted 16 different dishes, not including between-course palate cleansers and wine. Granted, Illyrio is a gourmand, so it's not surprising how much he eats, but for me most of the food descriptions range from unappealing to frankly nauseating. Veal cutlets blanched in almond milk, stuffed swan, bleh. (Blanching in almond milk is a recurring theme, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's some fan theory about it having some deeper meaning)

One tidbit from that chapter that intrigues me is the statue Tyrion saw from his window. Illyrio says that it's a statue of him when he was sixteen (sorry, six-and-ten). I found it implausible that a 16 year old bravo would a) commission a statue of himself and b) have the money to pay for it. Maybe the artist paid him to pose for it and Illyrio bought it much later after he'd become wealthy and fat. Book 5 Spoiler

Alternatively, the statue isn't him, but actually Young Griff. I'm in the camp that Illyrio's second wife Serra was a female descendant from the Blackfyres and Young Griff is their son.

I also loved how quickly Illyrio dismissed the idea of crowning Myrcella. "To crown her is to kill her. Dorne might rise for her, but Dorne is not enough." A third party from across the Narrow Sea sees things more clearly than Arianne and the Sand Snakes.

Sometimes it's easier to see other people's problems than to see your own.

[stillshimpy]

I also enjoyed that Illyrio just immediately and without equivocation just tossing that idea right off The Wall. "Yeah, no. Doomed before it stared, where's your head?" type of straight-to-the-point, "Hell to-the-fucking no" and in a way that actually makes sense. They lack they power to bring it about in Dorne, she's a child, her claim is easily disputed and they don't have the military might to try and stage that power grab.

Sliced, diced and disposed of, they move on to another plan.

One tidbit from that chapter that intrigues me is the statue Tyrion saw from his window. Illyrio says that it's a statue of him when he was sixteen (sorry, six-and-ten). I found it implausible that a 16 year old bravo would a) commission a statue of himself and b) have the money to pay for it. Maybe the artist paid him to pose for it and Illyrio bought it much later after he'd become wealthy and fat.

Yeah, that caught my attention and I wasn't sure what it was supposed to suggest about Illyrio's predilections but just let that go for the moment because I don't think that was meant to be calling my attention to anything horrifying. For one thing, it's rare that artwork depicting people is mentioned in this story. It's so rare in the TV Series that the one time I was joking about "Hey, we only ever see statues of the dead (because there is no artwork or tapestry in the show world, we've only seen Baelor, Lyanna ...later The Seven ...) and when they showed a statue of Joffrey, I joked around saying, "Oh hopefully that means he's dead..." ....and holy shit, he died the next episode.

So since that seems a conscious choice in the TV Show and is used for a purpose, I was really caught by the statue in the book. I wondered if it was Illyrio's son, or maybe the great love of his life. They also talked about the chosen Prince of Pentos, who is actually just the guy waiting to be a human sacrifice to the whims of fate and weather. So I kind of wondered if it wouldn't turn out to be Illyrio's great love, who he then put forth as Prince as some sort of revenge move for perceived misdeeds.

I really gave that statue far more thought than I likely should have.

[bobbybuilderton]

So I just realized it'd be funny if illyrio has

his own version of "promise me" but it's to put his son on the throne

[Constantinople]

One tidbit from that chapter that intrigues me is the statue Tyrion saw from his window.  Illyrio says that it's a statue of him when he was sixteen (sorry, six-and-ten).  I found it implausible that a 16 year old bravo would a) commission a statue of himself and b) have the money to pay for it.  Maybe the artist paid him to pose for it and Illyrio bought it much later after he'd become wealthy and fat.  Book 5 Spoiler

Alternatively, the statue isn't him, but actually Young Griff.  I'm in the camp that Illyrio's second wife Serra was a female descendant from the Blackfyres and Young Griff is their son.

Another possibility is that the sculptor used a model that Illyrio claimed looked like him when he was 16.

Is the statute just another brick in GRRM's world building that signifies nothing more than Illyrio is a bit of an egomaniac, or does it mean something more?

I don't know.

[stillshimpy]

I'm sure I'm not the first person to have the whole "Huh, I wonder if any of the principal players represent the 7 deadly sins (in keeping with the seven theme of the religion)" and judging by that feast, Illyrio would hands down be the front-runner for Gluttony. So maybe it is meant to be a statue of Illyrio when he was young, but this in the ruin that he's made of himself?

I know we've got front runners for Lust and Avarice too.

Nah, probably not.

[Delta1212]

Where would you even start with Pride?

[stillshimpy]

Right? That's part of the reason I had to say "Eh...wow...too many of them fit too many of the people...and then we'd have to invent more..."

We'd need the Seventeen Deadly sins just to get out King's Landing.

Edited December 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

I'm pretty sure that statue is of himself and that he was already getting rich

with Varys at that point.

Littlefinger would represent Greed, Tywin is Pride, Stannis is Envy, Tyrion is Lust , Illyrio is Gluttony. Not sure who Wrath and Sloth would be, maybe Daenerys and Cersei.

Edited December 17, 2015 by WindyNights

[John Potts]

stillshimpy You should try googling that, bobby, I just did and the jury is very much divided on whether or not grown men can.

 

 

This provided me with hours... well, OK, a few seconds of amusement. It's like being told you can't keep your eyes open during a sneeze (as far as I know, that is true) or that it's impossible to lick your elbow (not universally true, some people with flexible shoulders and/or long tongues can). I can confirm that I can indeed stop & start at will. Whether that makes me weird or not is another matter!

 

I wish I had something more Thrones-y to contribute, but I couldn't contain myself... so to speak.

[bobbybuilderton]

Let's make a fan movie like se7en where cat is going around killing everyone who represents the sins. It'd be called... se7en kingdoms

[chandraReborn]

On Harma . . . at the end of ASOS, one of Stannis's knights cuts her head off and sticks it on a pole (it's just mentioned in one sentence, so you might have missed it). You could call it . . . karma.

[Avaleigh]

I'm pretty sure that statue is of himself and that he was already getting rich

with Varys at that point.

Littlefinger would represent Greed, Tywin is Pride, Stannis is Envy, Tyrion is Lust , Illyrio is Gluttony. Not sure who Wrath and Sloth would be, maybe Daenerys and Cersei.

I agree that people fit multiple categories. Cersei pretty much covers them all. I agree that Tywin and Stannis are both top candidates for Pride. If forced to choose I'd go with Jaime as Lust, Cersei as Pride, Tywin as Wrath, Tyrion as Envy, Littlefinger is Greed, and Illyrio or the High Septon who gets killed in Clash as Gluttony.

 

Sloth is a tough one. Dareon? Doran?

 

I can see Arya as Wrath too.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Terra Nova]

On Harma . . . at the end of ASOS, one of Stannis's knights cuts her head off and sticks it on a pole (it's just mentioned in one sentence, so you might have missed it). You could call it . . . karma.

 

Harma is a b!tch :D

 

*runs away*

[glowbug]

Too many characters fit too many categories but here are my picks:

 

Pride: Cersei

Greed: Littlefinger

Lust: Jamie

Sloth: Sam (he's overcome his sin but he's the only major character that perfectly fit this sin at some point in the series)

Wrath: Arya

Gluttony: Robert

Envy: Stannis

 

That was fun.

[mac123x]

As for who represents the Seven Virtues... umm....

 

[crickets]

 

Brienne could be Chastity or Diligence maybe

 

Yeah, I got nothin'.

[Avaleigh]

Doran/Patience. Ned/Humility. Sansa/Chastity. Brienne/Diligence. Sam/Kindness. Jon/Temperance. Dany/Charity (The last two are a little shaky, I admit.)

[stillshimpy]

Oh God, I never thought of the virtues. Let's see, I'll try to think of characters who aren't dead or killed for possessing these traits.

Chastity: Brienne (leading dead possessor of said virtue: Maester Luwin (to the best of our knowledge)

Temperance: Uh, yeah right. Um, it's a tie between Rickon and the High Sparrow

Charity: Meribald (that one was actually easy -- leading dead possessor of said virtue: anyone else who has displayed it)

Diligence: Hmm. Well, Maester is dead. So is Lord Mormont. Err...ummm....well. There's got to be someone, right? Greyworm? Dany?

Patience: Doran. Wheeee one that was easy (which he's totally a dead man)

Kindness: Tommen? It's difficult because again, most of the people possessing kindness end up dead because of it. Bran seems primarily kind.

Humility: Barristan (he actually fit a few, including diligence)

Oh wait!! Reeds!! Kindness! Humility too! Oh, Missandei is kind!

Edited December 17, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

chastity = Margaery. She is still a virgin after 3 marriages, right? <snort>

[Avaleigh]

Good call Shimpy on Barristan for Humility. 

[Delta1212]

Pride: Stannis- His entire personality is built around a core of wounded pride and arguably every significant error he's made has been the result of his being too proud to yield, compromise or change direction. Melisandre's hold on him has a lot to do with playing on Stannis's pride to get him to do the things she wants. I expect if anything is to be his undoing, it will be the rigidity of his pride. Season 5

It certainly was on the show

Envy: Cersei- She envies her father, her brother, Sansa, Margaery. Cersei spends most of her time being angry at those around her for having things she wants and doesn't understand how to get for herself. It's that envy of the respect other people got, of the people who were allowed to play the game openly and most specifically of Margaery and her influence over Tommen that drove Cersei into the High Sparrow's trap.

Sloth: Robert- His apathetic reign and general laziness in the position of king is what allowed the political situation to deteriorate to the point that ultimately got Jon Arryn and himself (and then a lot of other people) killed.

Wrath: Oberyn Martell- This probably requires the least explanation. His character is pretty much literally wrath incarnate and his wrath ultimately gets him killed.

Lust: Littlefinger- May initially seem like an odd choice, but the root of Petyr's character is thwarted desire, and the frustration from that which redirected his obsession towards a ruthless quest for power. And on top of that, his one glaring weakness right now is Sansa, a weakness that is the fruit of that same initial desire.

Greed: Kraznys (and the other Astapori slavers)- Turning over the entire Unsullied army all at once was a bad idea, and a number of them knew it was a bad idea, but the prospect of owning something as rare and valuable as a dragon got them all killed.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

First Dany chapter under my belt too.

Okay, first things first, season five

looks like the story will be adhering to some of the stuff on the show, the biggest surprise for me is that the dragon story appears to be from the books. I had assumed that was a budgetary "too cheap for that much CGI, lock 'em up!" decision.

Okay, some fun touches with the story. I liked the floppy eared thing. There was more humor in the chapter than I was anticipating. The story of Stalwart Shield was fairly straight-forward. That was a chapter that got a lot done and introduced some extra characters to me. Here are the notes I made: Reznak: Small and damp. Skahaz (totally sounds like a Stargate character, by the way) Shaved heave, ohoily skin. House of Pahl: grudge. Hizdahr zo Loraq: Yeah, that's Hizzy.

Not a ton to say on that material. Straight on down the line, the show has been the best about conveying much of what happened to Daenaary's quite faithfully. There are small changes like season five

changing Stalwart Shield to a near look alike for Grey Worm, which I'm convinced was meant to actually confuse the audience into thinking it was Grey Worm. Oddly, not a change I begrudge them, it was the easiest way to make sure people immediately cared about his fate. "Wait, is that Grey Worm??"

It's all a lot more detailed and there were touches I genuinely enjoyed. Like the Tokhar description and the oddity that was the slippers: where someone tries to pass off a pair of slippers made for a child as a gift for the queen. That's a subtle thing and the kind of thing that would happen in real life. Re-gifting: Invented by the Aristocracy.

glowbug and Delta, those are awesome picks for the Seven Deadlies. I'd personally have to go with Robert for Sloth. He let a country go to near ruin because he could be arsed to care.

Greed is Walder Frey, I think. He never did anything that wasn't of benefit to him. He has no love, or loyalty. He collects wives like they are miniature spoons. Even his relatives are so grasping that all and sundry at the Twins were about ready to tell Emmon to shove the royal parchment up his butt.

Edited December 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Constantinople]

Sloth: Daenerys - a snail trapped in molasses would get to Westeros faster than her.