S06.E02: Songs Of Innocence

[ottoDbusdriver]

Along those lines, did Spencer tell Ali about the home movie?  "Yeah, Charles had an 8mm film (which makes no sense since it would have been filmed way after home video cameras were around) of you, your mom, and two older boys.

 

Because you can't easily start a fire with a video camera.  Even stupider, 8mm film melts when heated -- that's why it's called safety film, as it's not made of highly combustible silver nitrate film from the good old days -- so unless there was an open flame inside that projector that whole scene was just utter bullshit.

[hqtextbook]

I have actually heard about this torture where you think you are inflicting torture on someone but in reality you are only hearing them scream.  it was actually pretty brilliant of A, None of the girls seemed to have any physical injuries but the emotional scars are going to be there forever,

 

The thing with this is, I feel like they'd figure out it wasnt real torture when they themselves never got shocked. Unless all four of them just assumed they never got picked in 3 weeks? I hope this is true because, but they'd have to explain that part for me. 

 

Small highlight for me was arias dress that said "Stop Men" all over it. This whole show is just a metaphor for fighting the patriarchy isnt it?  :)

[raytch]

Small highlight for me was arias dress that said "Stop Men" all over it. This whole show is just a metaphor for fighting the patriarchy isnt it?  :)

 

Apparently they had that costume made!

 

The show has been a metaphor for fighting the patriarchy since day 1. All the shots of someone looking at the girls and being constantly watched... We're basically seeing their story through the male gaze, which makes it even more eery.

[Kromm]

Apparently they had that costume made!

 

The show has been a metaphor for fighting the patriarchy since day 1. All the shots of someone looking at the girls and being constantly watched... We're basically seeing their story through the male gaze, which makes it even more eery.

So the character who mooned over a teacher, then actually dated him, is fighting the patriarchy and "stopping men"?  Argh. I'm gonna need that one explained to me, show!

[Jack Shaftoe]

Considering that we don't even know if the current Big A is male and the fact that for much of the show's timeline the Big Bads were Mona and Alison, I can't agree that PLL is about fighting the patriarchy much. Plus, it actively promotes relationships where the guy is quite a bit of a jerk like Spencer/Toby and Ezzzria. Even if the current A is male, the girls' success rate in foiling his plans is about 0.001% so I think I would be more justified calling the show a "damsels in distress" type of show than a metaphor about fighting the patriarchy.

 

Mind you, in many respects PLL is head and shoulders above the average TV show in terms of portrayal of female characters, but still...

[hqtextbook]

Here’s why I think PLL is 100% a fighting the patriarchy show more than it is a “damsels in distress show.” The way I see it, A has always been a metaphor for the patriarchy not because of male characteristics but because both have similar effects on women. For example, A and a Patriarchy-based society both create a situation where women are seen as playthings for the purpose of acting out fantasies. Both take agency and control away from women. Both pit women against each other, both are omnipresent yet invisible, obsessed with control, enabled by victim blaming, normalize surveillance culture etc… This show shows the pll’s constantly fighting back, refusing to be silenced, sticking together when being pitted against each other, and generally in this season winning the battle to not be dolls for A. No they don’t win a lot (yet), but their relentless fight, I believe, is an awesome metaphor for fighting the patriarchy. This isnt a “damsels in distress show” because the plls are always saving themselves. Ezra didn’t get them out of the doll house. Caleb didn’t save Emily at the lighthouse. Toby hasn’t done a useful thing since his introduction. The men on this show are either evil or support systems for the plls. The women have interesting development, stories, agency, and control. (I admit the show promoting Ezra is one huge, huge flaw in the show. I kills me ever time I see it. But hey, nothing is perfect J).

Some quotes from the show:

“This enemy is everywhere and nowhere”

“They treat you like a criminal and it’s hard to remember that you’re not one”

“It’s the loneliest feeling you could possibly imagine”

“This is A’s dollhouse. Yeah, and we’re the dolls”

(please argue back if you want! This is like my favorite topic and my favorite thing about pll!)

[FozzyBear]

Show- "How does a high school boy afford all of that?"

Audience- We've been saying that since season 1!

I'm hoping its a clue. Because you know who's it a High School boy and has a trust fund that could chock a horse? Ezra, that's who. I'm also hoping that what the "write it down Ari. You must express your feelings. Specifically on paper, in my office." was about seeing how much The Liars had figured out. How many clues that could come back to him. What can I say? I'm a cockeyed optimist

[superman1204]

Here’s why I think PLL is 100% a fighting the patriarchy show more than it is a “damsels in distress show.” The way I see it, A has always been a metaphor for the patriarchy not because of male characteristics but because both have similar effects on women. For example, A and a Patriarchy-based society both create a situation where women are seen as playthings for the purpose of acting out fantasies. Both take agency and control away from women. Both pit women against each other, both are omnipresent yet invisible, obsessed with control, enabled by victim blaming, normalize surveillance culture etc… This show shows the pll’s constantly fighting back, refusing to be silenced, sticking together when being pitted against each other, and generally in this season winning the battle to not be dolls for A. No they don’t win a lot (yet), but their relentless fight, I believe, is an awesome metaphor for fighting the patriarchy. This isnt a “damsels in distress show” because the plls are always saving themselves. Ezra didn’t get them out of the doll house. Caleb didn’t save Emily at the lighthouse. Toby hasn’t done a useful thing since his introduction. The men on this show are either evil or support systems for the plls. The women have interesting development, stories, agency, and control. (I admit the show promoting Ezra is one huge, huge flaw in the show. I kills me ever time I see it. But hey, nothing is perfect J).

While I agree that PPL definitely has a lot of feminist themes and well developed female characters, I don't think A is metaphor for the patriarchy, at least not originally.  The constant harassing text messages and exploiting of the girls insecurities I think was meant more as a metaphor for cyber bullying and mean girl behavior.  Also I agree that the male characters have never been the heroes or the show's main focus, but I think the writers would probably make them more central to the show if they were better developed.  The writers expect us to like Toby and Ezra, and Paige and Shana are probably just as badly written as the average male character.  Personally I think PPL has a lot of positive aspects, both feminist and otherwise, but I think looking at the show as a feminist allegory is reading a bit too much into things.

[hqtextbook]

While I agree that PPL definitely has a lot of feminist themes and well developed female characters, I don't think A is metaphor for the patriarchy, at least not originally.  The constant harassing text messages and exploiting of the girls insecurities I think was meant more as a metaphor for cyber bullying and mean girl behavior.  Also I agree that the male characters have never been the heroes or the show's main focus, but I think the writers would probably make them more central to the show if they were better developed.  The writers expect us to like Toby and Ezra, and Paige and Shana are probably just as badly written as the average male character.  Personally I think PPL has a lot of positive aspects, both feminist and otherwise, but I think looking at the show as a feminist allegory is reading a bit too much into things.

hahahah yeah you're probably right. Its mostly wishful thinking and these writers are not deep enough to really pull that off well. But I still think there's something to it and the show is doing some things really well feminism-wise. Maybe not intentionally :)

[mercfan3]

I actually really like that theory. I think there are a lot of feminist themes that run through the show, but the A allegory makes a lot of sense. Although I agree that at first it was the cyber bully/mean girl theme with A (the show was always feminist based though), i think that theory (Especialy if it is tied with NAT) fits the second A. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

I'm hoping its a clue. Because you know who's it a High School boy and has a trust fund that could chock a horse? Ezra, that's who. I'm also hoping that what the "write it down Ari. You must express your feelings. Specifically on paper, in my office." was about seeing how much The Liars had figured out. How many clues that could come back to him.

 

Considering the feats that A pull off on a daily basis, stealing a few millions should be a piece of cake for them, so I never understood the idea that A must come from a rich family.

 

 

No they don’t win a lot (yet), but their relentless fight, I believe, is an awesome metaphor for fighting the patriarchy.

 

And yet the Liars keep losing all the time, often because of their own stupidity? Not the best of messages, is it? I just don't see anything in PLL that points out to the show intending anything of the sort. I might as well claim it's surely a metaphor for fighting the government because of A's Big Brother tendencies or fighting terrorism because lately A has really started pushing the envelope in that respect.

 

 

This isnt a “damsels in distress show” because the plls are always saving themselves.

 

Not really. On some occasions A decided not to push a particular point when they were close to breaking (like Emily's HGH affair) or someone did indeed save the PLLs - be it Caleb, Alison, Paige or even Ezra.

 

 

The men on this show are either evil or support systems for the plls. The women have interesting development, stories, agency, and control.

 

I can't think of a single female character that can't also be described as "evil or support systems for the plls". Well, except for the Liars, themselves obviously. The female characters probably have a bit more depth in general but I don't think the gap is that big. Also, the two characters who have been portrayed the most often as tormentors of female characters happen to be also female - Alison and Mona.

[Giuliano Lanzilli]

Guys, when Ashley was inquiring about the month Hanna spent in the dollhouse, the latter said, among the many games A would make them play, there was one called "Who do you love more, me or her?". But "me" as in "A himself"? And what kind of punishment would A have inflicted to her had she chosen someone else? God, this show makes NO sense!

[bettername2come]

Just noticed on rewatch that Spencer and her mom are basically dressed the same in the scene where Veronica tells her she can't have pills. Just thought that was strange.

[superman1204]

Guys, when Ashley was inquiring about the month Hanna spent in the dollhouse, the latter said, among the many games A would make them play, there was one called "Who do you love more, me or her?". But "me" as in "A himself"? And what kind of punishment would A have inflicted to her had she chosen someone else? God, this show makes NO sense!

I could be wrong, but I took the line to mean Hanna was forced to choose between herself and one of the other Lairs for some punishment or reward, or that two of the Liars had to beg a third Liar for something (food, water, not being shocked).

[SadieT]

I could be wrong, but I took the line to mean Hanna was forced to choose between herself and one of the other Lairs for some punishment or reward, or that two of the Liars had to beg a third Liar for something (food, water, not being shocked).

 

Yeah, at first the way Hanna says it is a bit confusing. Almost like Charles was making her choose between him (me) and one of the girls (her), but I think the actual game was Hanna having to choose between two of the other girls. 

[Giuliano Lanzilli]

Yeah, at first the way Hanna says it is a bit confusing. Almost like Charles was making her choose between him (me) and one of the girls (her), but I think the actual game was Hanna having to choose between two of the other girls. 

 

This!!! I, too, thought "me" meant "Charles" since he was supposedly the one asking the questions (in that case, needless to say, I would always say I love Charles more than whichever liar was the second option, in order to avoid being punished, but oh well...). I'm pretty sure the writers won't delve into that again because they don't know what that line was supposed to mean themselves! 

[Oholibamah]

Re: Ali's appearance. She looked this way last season too. I think maybe Sasha just put on a bit of weight & isn't as slender as the other girls which makes her look bigger. She's probably just an average size girl, not Hollywood size. I am glad to see that she hasn't been recasted due to this. The entertainment industry can be so shallow.

 

I do think a big part of it is the camera/comparison to the other girls. I always thought Shay Mitchell was extremely tall and curvy, but I saw her a few months ago in Venice Beach and she is only slightly-above-average height and tiny. I guess anyone would tower over Lucy Hale, but I was just floored by how small she looked in person.

 

The wardrobe choices are indeed unfortunate, but I think it's an interesting reversal of the character's previous MO. I would have a harder time believing Ali has "changed" if she was still dressing the way she did before. Either way, Sasha is stunning.

 

This!!! I, too, thought "me" meant "Charles" since he was supposedly the one asking the questions (in that case, needless to say, I would always say I love Charles more than whichever liar was the second option, in order to avoid being punished, but oh well...). I'm pretty sure the writers won't delve into that again because they don't know what that line was supposed to mean themselves! 

 

Yeah, I also took it as picking between "Charles" versus one of the other girls. Obviously Mona didn't actually believe she was Ali, but she played the game to avoid punishment and I'm sure the girls did the same. "Charles" was seeking the validation of being "loved" by the girls.

 

I don't think the punishments were physically violent, but I don't think it was a Millgram-type experiment, either. I imagine the girls were being forced to choose who didn't get water, who had to skip dinner, who heard the siren, or who got a reminder of their past (if Charles is affiliated with 'A', I'm sure he has plenty of video footage of their less-than-proud moments). I got the feeling that the past was a huge part of Charles' game because he dressed the girls the way they looked circa "The Night Where Ali Did 1000 Things" (Spencer preppy, Aria goth, Emily jock and a particularly ashamed Hannah frumpy). It's also possible that they were too afraid to pick "Dare" (I know I would be) and that their answers to "Truth" were broadcast to the other Liars.

 

I saw somebody upthread say that the show gets away with "telling, not showing"... but to be quite honest, I would rather not see some of the horrific forms of torture that could have been inflicted on them. I find it impressive that this show can be so twisted yet still keep its "Young Adult" designation/ABC Family affiliation... but showing any more would probably cross a line.

[bettername2come]

Based on Hanna saying you could lose your turn and someone else would pick, I think the other liars really did get punished based on the choices they made.

 

Ironically, Ali looked better in the yellow tank top than she did in all the things they're dressing her in to hide her weight gain. The sleeves on her jacket are making her arms look big, but then when you actually can see them, it's like, "oh, that's not so bad."

[Giuliano Lanzilli]

I always thought Shay Mitchell was extremely tall and curvy, but I saw her a few months ago in Venice Beach and she is only slightly-above-average height and tiny. I guess anyone would tower over Lucy Hale, but I was just floored by how small she looked in person.

 

Ooooh what a disappointment!!! So she really is only 1.71 m as they claim... and Troian must be exactly the same height or around 1.70 m anyway... Not tall at all! I thought she was at least 1.75 m!!!

[Giuliano Lanzilli]

Based on Hanna saying you could lose your turn and someone else would pick, I think the other liars really did get punished based on the choices they made.

 

Ironically, Ali looked better in the yellow tank top than she did in all the things they're dressing her in to hide her weight gain. The sleeves on her jacket are making her arms look big, but then when you actually can see them, it's like, "oh, that's not so bad."

 

I wouldn't be so sure of that. For me, besides her rounder face, her arms are her biggest problem: they're HUGE!!! At the beginning of last episode, when she was talking to her dad, it was so distracting how big they were that they almost covered her face!!! So, like someone suggested upthread, they should put in her short sleeves more often than not rather than make her wear sleeveless tops 100% of the time (when that wasn't even the case in the past). It totally feels like they're doing it on purpose if you ask me (if you watch the 3rd sneak peek for 6x03 with her and Lorenzo, you'll see what I'm talking about).

Edited June 15, 2015 by Giuliano Lanzilli

[Cranberry]

Enough weight discussion here, guys. It's not about the episode, so take it to the behind the scenes thread.

 

(And we're approaching "dead horse" territory as it is.)