One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[dustylil]

It's too bad Jason wasn't around in Season 5. He and Logan could have gotten together and commiserated over their "daddy" issues ;)

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

When I first saw "Twenty-One is the Loneliest Number", I thought Emily and Richard were being naïve and old-fashioned. Ten years later, watching the whole "Rory drops out of Yale" arc, they are downright creepy trying to police her sex life. It's gross. And in previous episodes Emily revealed she used to snoop through Lorelai's things, while doing the same to Rory. If this is the behavior Emily thought was acceptable, no wonder Lorelai left.

[Guest]

When I first saw "Twenty-One is the Loneliest Number", I thought Emily and Richard were being naïve and old-fashioned. Ten years later, watching the whole "Rory drops out of Yale" arc, they are downright creepy trying to police her sex life. It's gross. And in previous episodes Emily revealed she used to snoop through Lorelai's things, while doing the same to Rory. If this is the behavior Emily thought was acceptable, no wonder Lorelai left.

 

I also felt that their behavior got so over the top there, almost as if the writers were setting up justification for Rory leaving.  It could have all been handled so much better by the writers, in my opinion.

[txhorns79]

And in previous episodes Emily revealed she used to snoop through Lorelai's things, while doing the same to Rory. If this is the behavior Emily thought was acceptable, no wonder Lorelai left.

 

It was too much to be doing to Rory, but Lorelai was a mischievous teenager who thought nothing of going into mom and dad's liquor stash when they weren't home.  I wouldn't regularly go through my kid's things, but I would probably reserve that right if I felt they were acting out of control.  

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

If Emily thought it was appropriate to snoop through a 21-year-old's belongings over simple curiosity as to how she spends her days, I'm willing to bet invading Lorelai's privacy began long before Lorelai was stealing liquor--which, since she she was sneaking a cocktail at home, as shown, not getting blackout drunk, counts as inappropriate and irresponsible, not out of control behavior, IMO--and that kind of controlling behavior is stifling. If Lorelai felt so rigidly manipulated, it would explain some of her more rebellious behavior. You can only treat someone like a criminal for so long before they live down to that expectation.

[txhorns79]

If Lorelai felt so rigidly manipulated, it would explain some of her more rebellious behavior. You can only treat someone like a criminal for so long before they live down to that expectation.

 

I don't know if going through someone's chest of drawers really is on par with treating someone like a criminal.  I think parents have a lot of leeway in controlling their kid's behavior within their own home.  Like I said, I would not typically go through my child's things at home.  However, I reserve that right if I thought the situation merited it. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by txhorns79

[readster]

When I first saw "Twenty-One is the Loneliest Number", I thought Emily and Richard were being naïve and old-fashioned. Ten years later, watching the whole "Rory drops out of Yale" arc, they are downright creepy trying to police her sex life. It's gross. And in previous episodes Emily revealed she used to snoop through Lorelai's things, while doing the same to Rory. If this is the behavior Emily thought was acceptable, no wonder Lorelai left.

I also thought it made Emily and Richard truly look like they were out of touch with reality. She was dating Logan Huntzberger, a boy known to have multiple girlfriends and a party life. I mean, really! I get they hated it happened under their own roof, but it was to just have it so Rory started realizing that living with her grandparents was really not what it was cracked up to be. Of course, completely dropping out of school over being told by said's boyfriends dad instead of you know, changing majors or just going to school part time made more sense than a full drop off: "I suck and I'm not good anymore" Rory we got. I completely understand a parent trying to hold a child's privacy if you think they are trying drugs or sneaking something they shouldn't. I hold that right if I come with it down to my own kid. My mother admitted once she worried about me back in high school and even looked at my room once, but didn't find anything except for a hidden playboy. Which she laughed at. She didn't tell me until a few years later, but I got her point. That was a dark time in my teenage life and one I don't look back fondly on due to the depression I had at the time. I completely got my mom's view then. Especially because she did it just once and later once with my brother years later and only discovered he was playing more M is for mature video games and that was the end of that worry.

  Emily came off to a point like she was looking for hard core drugs or something else. It painted her as more irksome and then the pastor who came in to talk to Rory about it. It was too much, like Emily and Richard were stuck in the 1940s.

[TomServo]

I watched the entirety of the X-Files revival and also the first episode of Fuller House. The bar for revivals is shockingly low right now. My psychness for this revival is also plummeting.

 

Yep.  I didn't expect Fuller House to be anything other than what it is, but my first thought after the last X-Files episode was more or less, "Uh, oh.  ASP and Chris Carter have have some ego and tin-ear issues in common.  Maybe they shouldn't bring GG back, after all."

[brightside]

Yep.  I didn't expect Fuller House to be anything other than what it is, but my first thought after the last X-Files episode was more or less, "Uh, oh.  ASP and Chris Carter have have some ego and tin-ear issues in common.  Maybe they shouldn't bring GG back, after all."

 

The thing that keeps me from getting too nervous is Lauren Graham's reaction to the scripts in her TVLine interview. If she loves them, my bet is I will too. 

 

Here's an UO so I'm on topic: In 3.16 Rory eats a Kit Kat like it’s a regular candy bar instead of breaking the sticks and eating those. I’m disgusted. It’s the worst thing Rory’s ever done. She’s an animal. Such disrespect. *wink*

 

...but honestly she's a monster. Who eats a Kit Kat like that?

Edited March 5, 2016 by brightside

[takalotti]

...but honestly she's a monster. Who eats a Kit Kat like that?

The same people who bite a stick of string cheese instead of peeling it. <shudders> It's just wrong.

[GreenScreenFX]

I admit to doing both when I am REALLy hungry. I feel bad about it the whole time.

[brightside]

I admit to doing both when I am REALLy hungry. I feel bad about it the whole time.

 

You should probably steal a yacht and prepare for your life of crime.

[AllyB]

I get they hated it happened under their own roof, but it was to just have it so Rory started realizing that living with her grandparents was really not what it was cracked up to be.

I thought the whole thing was a very over the top story line at the time but I've just started a rewatch of the show and I'm starting to realise it was an inevitable progression Rory needed to go through. While I generally think Lorelai was a good parent I'm starting to see two major failings in how she brought up Rory. One was that she really did shape Rory's ambitions too much. For example when she first meets Max she told him about how Rory has wanted to go to Harvard since she was a toddler. And with all due respect to Lorelai the only way Rory would have had that ambition at that age was if Lorelai was pushing it. I have a toddler and he's smart for a 3 year old but his only long-term ambition in life is to ask Santa for Star Wars toys next Christmas. Lorelai described buying toddler Rory a Harvard sweater and it being a focus of their ambition for years.

 

So obviously Lorelai was feeling a degree of regret at how her life was at that point and determined for Rory to have the things she had given up, but focused on Harvard as the superior rival to Yale, where she would have been pressured to go to. Unlike Emily and Richard, she got Rory onside with that ambition, in part through her friendly parenting but also in big part because Rory is naturally a people pleaser. Rory didn't ever genuinely want to go to Harvard that much, as evidenced by the fact that she didn't. But I don't think she really knew if Yale was what she wanted either and she really needed that time away to work out what were her own ambitions as opposed to the ambitions that other people had for her.

The other mistake that Lorelai made was to not really prepare Rory for the reality of living a middle class life while having masses of wealth available to her if she really wanted it. In Kill Me Now, Lorelai laments to Sookie that she didn't think she'd raised the type of kid who'd want to live like her family. But no matter how down to earth and happy a kid is in a chilled out, comfortable life. If they have a wealthy family who wants to share their riches (and who in fact don't know how to express their love other than sharing those riches) any teenager is going to want to sample that. Especially when they are just being offered them at the same time as being newly surrounded every day by classmates with the same privileges.

 

If Lorelai had found a way to lay down boundaries with her parents that had allowed them to be a bigger part of Rory's life as a child it might not have been as big a problem. But Rory was suddenly flung into a new school environment full of wealthy children while being offered the love and wealth of her wider family. That's too much for any teenager to resist.

Edited March 5, 2016 by AllyB

[dustylil]

The other mistake that Lorelai made was to not really prepare Rory for the reality of living a middle class life while having masses of wealth available to her if she really wanted it

 

With respect, when she was raising her daughter, why would Lorelai think Rory would have masses of wealth available to her? Their contact with the senior Gilmores was perfunctory at best. These were not doting grandparents lavishing gifts and money on their only grandchild.  They hadn't, for instance, offered or  made any provision to pay for Rory's college education -  a fairly common gift  as I understand it - among the educated and affluent. Given their clear disapproval of their daughter, why would she think they had that all that much interest in their granddaughter?

Until the opportunity to attend Chilton came along when Rory was fifteen and Lorelai needed to borrow money, there was no reason to think that the chilly relationship between the two families would not continue. With a similar distance in financial matters. It was only when Emily insisted that the terms of the loan include the Friday Night Dinners and greater contact, that Rory became aware of and immersed in the grandparents' manner of living. Had Lorelai been able to make the loan a straightforward business transaction, it may not have happened.

but focused on Harvard as the superior rival to Yale, where she would have been pressured to go to

 

For reasons never explained, Lorelai was not supposed to attend either Smith or Yale, the respective Ivy Leagues schools of her mother and father. She was expected to go to Vassar.

[JayInChicago]

For my continued love of the show I have to understand it that Rory is just that rare 1 in a million who as a toddler really fucking wanted to go to Harvard University. I know how unrealistic it actually is--but so much of the show is unrealistic. I cannot let the show I love coexist with the thought that Lorelai was such a brain-stage-mother that she pushed Harvard on a picture book reading Rory.

Besides, given how GG attempted to show us that R/L were actually pretty unaware of things like volunteering experiences to build a college application, or how you can't just apply at one school (duh Lorelai, really? Fucking really?)--I don't think it dovetails with Lorelai being the largest push behind Harvard.

Dusty can you cite the Vassar connection? I wonder if that was just one of the show's throwaway lines.

15 is pretty early to full on prepare for college entrance, especially in the mid 80s I would assume, so Lorelai becoming pregnant at 15 probably derailed that train at the station. Or maybe she had a bad PSAT score or something.

[AllyB]

With respect, when she was raising her daughter, why would Lorelai think Rory would have masses of wealth available to her? Their contact with the senior Gilmores was perfunctory at best. These were not doting grandparents lavishing gifts and money on their only grandchild.  They hadn't, for instance, offered or  made any provision to pay for Rory's college education -  a fairly common gift  as I understand it - among the educated and affluent. Given their clear disapproval of their daughter, why would she think they had that all that much interest in their granddaughter?

It was exactly because of their lack of relationship with the senior Gilmores that Rory was unprepared for dealing with their wealth when the trappings of it were constantly offered it to her. And while Lorelai would have happily carried on estranged from her parents the fact remains that up until Gigi's birth Rory was the only descendant of two very wealthy families (four if you count her surviving great-grandparents separately). There was always a very, very strong likelihood that Rory would eventually come into an awful lot of money but Lorelai never prepared Rory for that. I guess from Lorelai's point of view, she was so much happier since she turned her back on it, it never occurred to her that a super happy child like Rory might be tempted by it.

 

And ultimately Rory chose her own path to happiness over even vaster wealth. So Lorelai laid a good foundation in Rory, like I said she was a great mother overall, but she didn't really prepare Rory for the temptations of that wealth and the society that the Sr Gilmore's lived in, so at some point Rory was always going to be tempted to either do what she did in season 6 or something similar.

Edited March 5, 2016 by AllyB

[AllyB]

For my continued love of the show I have to understand it that Rory is just that rare 1 in a million who as a toddler really fucking wanted to go to Harvard University. I know how unrealistic it actually is--but so much of the show is unrealistic. I cannot let the show I love coexist with the thought that Lorelai was such a brain-stage-mother that she pushed Harvard on a picture book reading Rory.

In The Deer Hunters Lorelai knows that it's possible she pushed Rory down the Harvard path. She knows that they have been pursuing that dream from before Rory could have understood it. It doesn't mean she was pushing Rory against her will, just that it was something that came up, Rory expressed an interest in and Lorelai ran with it. It's not a bad thing, most parents do it to some extent, my husband and I both adore superheroes and Star Wars so as soon as our son showed an interest we were so happy to introduce them to him and it's very likely that his love of them has been influenced by ours. That doesn't make us bad parents, just humans.

 

For Lorelai, as a formerly wealthy teenager, working as a chambermaid and raising a child alone, she must at times have experienced regret about the life she could have been leading. Especially hearing occasionally about former friends traveling Europe and attending Princeton/Yale/etc. She would have wanted that and more for Rory. And as well as that it would be human, after all the crap the likes of Straub talked about her, for a part of her to want to prove how great a parent she is by her daughter going to a better school than either of her grandfathers. She wasn't purposefully pushing Rory for her own glory, she just had a fantasy at a low point in her life and Rory was in to it before she could truly understand it, so they both ran with it. But it was never really a decision Rory made for herself. So she ended up needing to take time out to decide what she herself really, really wanted.

Edited March 5, 2016 by AllyB

[dustylil]

JayinChicago, Lorelai attending Vassar was referenced in Season 2's Lorelai's Graduation Day when she was telling Rory about what a disappointment to her parents she was.

 

I was supposed to graduate from high school. Go to Vassar. Marry a Yale man and get myself a proper nickname like Babe or Bunny or Shih Tzu

 

I recall being surprised. She was the top student in her prep school class yet there appeared to be  no expectation that she would attend Yale, in keeping with Gilmore tradition.

[Melancholy]

I think Lorelai just said "Vassar" in keeping with her light, quippy tone disparaging E/R for their high falutin' ambitions to render them ridiculous and empty. I don't Emily and Richard were particularly tied to Lorelai getting a silly nickname either, especially since they never gave her a silly nickname and Emily doesn't really have a "Bunny"-like nickname among her DAR set. So, Lorelai picked Vassar, mocked as a rich girl's school according to cliche. I'm pretty sure Lorelai was expected to go to the best school that she could get into, and of course, Yale would be optimum. That was E/R's attitude toward Rory, as well. 

[dustylil]

I think Lorelai just said "Vassar" in keeping with her light, quippy tone disparaging E/R for their high falutin' ambitions to render them ridiculous and empty

Conceivably, but to me much of the dialogue in that scene is delivered in a tone of sadness rather that disparagement.

 

One would have thought the matter of Lorelai possibly attending Yale might have come up when Richard tricked Rory into that admissions meeting back in the third season. He could have whined in his defence that since he never got to have Lorelai considered for entrance to Yale, he was damned if he was going to miss the opportunity with his granddaughter.

Rory was the only descendant of two very wealthy families (four if you count her surviving great-grandparents separately

 

I wonder if Rory was actually legally acknowledged as a Hayden.

[Melancholy]

Conceivably, but to me much of the dialogue in that scene is delivered in a tone of sadness rather that disparagement.

 

One would have thought the matter of Lorelai possibly attending Yale might have come up when Richard tricked Rory into that admissions meeting back in the third season. He could have whined in his defence that since he never got to have Lorelai considered for entrance to Yale, he was damned if he was going to miss the opportunity with his granddaughter.

I wonder if Rory was actually legally acknowledged as a Hayden.

 

Eh, there's sadness and disparagement in Lorelai's tone. You can reasonably read that the quippy Vassar/nickname like Shitzu element was disparagement of the Gilmores to cover up Lorelai's sadness at rejection or even disappointing them so badly. Or you can reasonably read, Lorelai's main point was contempt for E/R and she was manufacturing quite a bit of the sadness to justify why she pushes them away but the main point of her monologue was derision- "Emily and Richard are such assholes with bullshit silly mockable priorities that there's no point in inviting them to my graduation from community college". I think it's somewhere between the two- but not a factual reading of E/R's specific college choice and deeply held desire for Lorelai to have a silly nickname. 

 

The problematic emotional thrust of Richard's focus on Rory going to Yale and him tricking Rory into the interview was for Richard to have a do-over with Rory and so that his granddaughter can go to Yale and succeed brilliantly because his daughter didn't. Richard didn't announce his problematic motives in that scene. He was more focused in seeming really, really reasonable and basing his manipulation on less noxiously personal grounds- he's a legacy, he can help Rory get into Yale even though it's incredibly competitive, Rory needs other Ivy Legaue backups besides Harvard, Richard regards Yale as better than Harvard. However, one of the key tensions of the entire show is E/R reveling in and trying to get Rory to live the life that they wanted for Lorelai because they missed out with their daughter and the Yale choice is a big part of that. 

 

I'd think Rory was legally acknowledged as Christopher's. He went to the hospital in the Dear Richard and Emily flashbacks. I find it impossible to believe that he didn't sign a birth certificate while he was there. I think he just acknowledged himself as Rory's father- but they somehow worked out that Rory would take the Gilmore surname. Maybe that was of a piece with Lorelai naming Rory after herself because, after all, that's typical for fathers and sons. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

I wonder if Rory was actually legally acknowledged as a Hayden.

 

Her father acknowledged her as his daughter, and there was nothing to suggest paternity was ever contested.  That's pretty much the end of it. 

 

 

I think Lorelai just said "Vassar" in keeping with her light, quippy tone disparaging E/R for their high falutin' ambitions to render them ridiculous and empty.

 

I just figured in that family, the idea was Lorelai would attend a Seven Sisters school like her mother. 

[shron17]

In The Deer Hunters Lorelai knows that it's possible she pushed Rory down the Harvard path. She knows that they have been pursuing that dream from before Rory could have understood it. It doesn't mean she was pushing Rory against her will, just that it was something that came up, Rory expressed an interest in and Lorelai ran with it.

It was well established that Rory loved learning things and reading from a very young age.  We saw that in Rory's excitement the first time she visited Harvard and also later her excitement about the history of learning at Yale.  We also clearly saw Lorelai wasn't excited about these same things. My daughter had something she loved and was drawn to at a very young age, even before she could talk. Even though it wasn't something I loved in the same way I always encouraged and supported her in it, and now it plays a significant role in her happiness as an adult. I can say for sure it wasn't my dream, and if she'd lost interest in it along the way I would have gladly supported her in the next thing (and likely saved a lot of money).  So, to me Lorelai was doing what every good parent does by encouraging Rory in the things she loves. Sure, a toddler doesn't understand the significance of Harvard but when a little girl who loves to learn finds out it's a place where people go to do that it's not such a surprise that she would feel drawn to it (and maybe she also liked the color of Harvard's sweatshirt). As far as Rory's doubt about continuing at Yale after Mitchum told her she didn't have it--I would say that was more because Rory decided on a career goal too early, not because her mother pushed her to go to Harvard from the age of 4.  Many college students have chosen their careers before thoroughly exploring their skills and aptitudes, and that is often why they change their major during college or sometimes their entire career after graduation.

 

And ultimately Rory chose her own path to happiness over even vaster wealth. So Lorelai laid a good foundation in Rory, like I said she was a great mother overall, but she didn't really prepare Rory for the temptations of that wealth and the society that the Sr Gilmore's lived in, so at some point Rory was always going to be tempted to either do what she did in season 6 or something similar.

I may be slow today but was trying to figure out what Lorelai should have done to prepare Rory for the temptations of wealth and society, and can't think of anything.  I always felt it was more Emily and Richard's decision not be very involved in Rory's life until she started Chilton; no one ever mentioned them not being welcome in Stars Hollow.  Unless, of course, they were interfering in some way which it seemed happened almost every time they did visit. I guess I just assumed that they resisted any attempt Lorelai made to set boundaries over the years and that was why they so rarely saw each other.  It does seem completely believable that Rory was tempted by their lifestyle, and that it happened when she and her mother had a disagreement.

Edited March 5, 2016 by shron17

[txhorns79]

I always felt it was more Emily and Richard's decision not be very involved in Rory's life until she started Chilton; no one ever mentioned them not being welcome in Stars Hollow.  Unless, of course, they were interfering in some way which it seemed happened almost every time they did visit. I guess I just assumed that they resisted any attempt Lorelai made to set boundaries over the years and that was why they so rarely saw each other.

 

I just figure they had a limited relationship with Rory because they had no real relationship with her mother.  I think it would be very hard to maintain a relationship with the grandchild when you are estranged from the mother. 

[shron17]

I think it would be very hard to maintain a relationship with the grandchild when you are estranged from the mother.

True, but why did Lorelai leaving their house with Rory mean they had to stay estranged?  I think Lorelai would have appreciated some help with Rory over the years as long as it was on her terms.  I understand why Emily didn't offer, but it makes me sad that she didn't try harder to be a part of their lives when Rory was younger.  It probably didn't even occur to her that it was more difficult for Lorelai to bring her to them, especially if she didn't have a car.

[txhorns79]

True, but why did Lorelai leaving their house with Rory mean they had to stay estranged?  I think Lorelai would have appreciated some help with Rory over the years as long as it was on her terms.  I understand why Emily didn't offer, but it makes me sad that she didn't try harder to be a part of their lives when Rory was younger.

 

I completely agree that Emily and Richard should have tried harder with Lorelai and to be in Rory's life.  Having said that, their daughter rejected them in a pretty emotionally brutal way, so I can see why they might think that they weren't wanted, so it was best to stay away. 

[brightside]

True, but why did Lorelai leaving their house with Rory mean they had to stay estranged?  I think Lorelai would have appreciated some help with Rory over the years as long as it was on her terms.  I understand why Emily didn't offer, but it makes me sad that she didn't try harder to be a part of their lives when Rory was younger.  It probably didn't even occur to her that it was more difficult for Lorelai to bring her to them, especially if she didn't have a car.

 

I agree that Emily should have put in more effort, but in 1.03 Lorelai does say to Rory "I didn't mean to cut you off from them so completely, you know. It just happened. Not having them in my life just felt so right. I just never thought -- I'm sorry." this combined with the facts that we learned in 1.06 that Emily and Richard came to the inn to visit when Rory was little and in 6.13 we learn that Emily invited Lorelai to the first Christmas party after she left Hartford leads me to believe that the estrangement was largely by Lorelai's choice.

[takalotti]

I guess I always assumed that Emily and Richard did push for involvement again as soon as they learned where Lorelai and Rory were, but that Lorelai kept it extremely limited because she didn't trust her parents to do it on her terms and with her boundaries.

[dustylil]

It was well established that Rory loved learning things and reading from a very young age

 

And she was excited about attending school from the get-go. I could imagine  a tiny Rory asking about the best schools in the world and being told by her mother Stars Hollow Elementary,  next Stars Hollow High School and then - not unreasonably - Harvard. Some children have focussed ambitions from an early age. Most of course do not. I recall a first grader of my vintage who had firmly decided by kindergarten age that she wanted to become a doctor. She is now a noted oncologist. When I was in first grade my priorities were remembering not to eat paste and distinguishing my right hand from my left.

 

Christopher may well have acknowledged paternity but my cynical side continues to wonder  about his name appearing on a legal document like the birth certificate. There would be no reason for her not to be named Lorelai Gilmore Hayden after all. I wouldn't put it past the delightful Straub to demand a blood test concerning Rory's paternity. And the Gilmores refusing as  matters of pride and principle.

I was struck by the fact that in Season 6 when Christopher was airily rambling to Lorelai about his recently inherited pile of loot, he did not seem to have made any earlier provision for Rory. Properly so, he had set up assorted arrangements for Gigi. And was now turning his attention to Lorelai and Rory (and in that order as was noted at the time). But why had he not put a trust or some other financial provisions  in place for Rory years earlier or even after Straub died the previous year? Surely his lawyers would have advised him there might be a legal mess  to deal with if he didn't address  the fact that he had two daughters. Unless, of course, he had never formally acknowledged Rory as his own.

Lorelai kept it extremely limited because she didn't trust her parents to do it on her terms and with her boundaries

 

Can't say that I blame her.

[txhorns79]

Christopher may well have acknowledged paternity but my cynical side continues to wonder  about his name appearing on a legal document like the birth certificate. There would be no reason for her not to be named Lorelai Gilmore Hayden after all. I wouldn't put it past the delightful Straub to demand a blood test concerning Rory's paternity. And the Gilmores refusing as  matters of pride and principle.

 

It doesn't really work like that.  There's no requirement a mother give the child the father's last name, particularly when the couple isn't married.  Moreover, there was never any indication that Straub questioned whether Rory was actually Chris' child.

 

 

I guess I always assumed that Emily and Richard did push for involvement again as soon as they learned where Lorelai and Rory were, but that Lorelai kept it extremely limited because she didn't trust her parents to do it on her terms and with her boundaries.

 

That's probably true.  None of them really trusted the other. 

[shron17]

this combined with the facts that we learned in 1.06 that Emily and Richard came to the inn to visit when Rory was little and in 6.13 we learn that Emily invited Lorelai to the first Christmas party after she left Hartford leads me to believe that the estrangement was largely by Lorelai's choice.

From Emily and Richard's perspective since moving out with Rory caused the estrangement it was Lorelai's choice.  If they had been able and/or willing to admit that once Lorelai turned 18 she had a right to live elsewhere with Rory and met her on her terms without trying to control her I think Lorelai would have come around at some point.  Since they weren't, I think she really had no choice but to not to try to have a relationship with them.  I think it's sad that Richard and Emily came so few times to visit Rory, and that Lorelai feels she had a negative affect on their relationship for not accepting that first invitation.

 

I completely agree that Emily and Richard should have tried harder with Lorelai and to be in Rory's life.  Having said that, their daughter rejected them in a pretty emotionally brutal way, so I can see why they might think that they weren't wanted, so it was best to stay away.

I agree, but also feel Lorelai was in a tough position with no one on her side.  I feel like she summed it up nicely in  Emily in Wonderland:

Mom, I was very young and I was very unhappy and I needed to be some place that wasn't here.

 

I do understand how devastated Emily was and how personal it must have felt to both of them.  I just wish they'd been able to break out of that mindset that their daughter wasn't behaving the way she should and try to support her the way she was. They had all the power and I would imagine Lorelai only left because it was the only way she could regain control over her own life.

Edited March 6, 2016 by shron17

[Kohola3]

I do understand how devastated Emily was and how personal it must have felt to both of them.  I just wish they'd been able to break out of that mindset that their daughter wasn't behaving the way she should and try to support her the way she was.

 

Sadly they did not learn anything from Lorelai's flight.  They tried the same tactics with Rory when she was living in the pool house and had the same result sans illegitimate child.

[dustylil]

I just wish they'd been able to break out of that mindset that their daughter wasn't behaving the way she should and try to support her the way she was. They had all the power and I would imagine Lorelai only left because it was the only way she could regain control over her own life

 

And even after Lorelai returned to the family orbit, Richard and Emily did not treat her as an adult. They intruded into her personal life, demeaned her choices and attempted to undermine her role and authority as Rory's mother.

[txhorns79]

And even after Lorelai returned to the family orbit, Richard and Emily did not treat her as an adult. They intruded into her personal life, demeaned her choices and attempted to undermine her role and authority as Rory's mother.

 

I tend to think they were never really able to escape the teenager/parent relationship.  It just kind of stayed in amber when Lorelai left, and restarted when Lorelai returned.  Essentially, Emily and Richard didn't know how to treat Lorelai like an adult because they never had an adult relationship with her.  Though there is always the old line from Heathers, about people who complain they want to be treated like adults, don't realize they are actually being treated like adults.     

[shron17]

Essentially, Emily and Richard didn't know how to treat Lorelai like an adult because they never had an adult relationship with her.

Most parents begin this process during the teen years as their child grows more independent and shows signs of maturity.  I would say Emily and Richard lost Lorelai because they refused to start developing that adult relationship with her.

[txhorns79]

Most parents begin this process during the teen years as their child grows more independent and shows signs of maturity.  I would say Emily and Richard lost Lorelai because they refused to start developing that adult relationship with her.

 

In fairness to them, Lorelai wasn't exactly the exemplar of good decision making.  Even if they had been willing to start developing an adult relationship with her, that probably ended when they realized she was pregnant.

[dirtypop90]

Hi all,

 

New to GG

 

My UO is that I freakin love Lor and Chris!! I'm such a chemistry whore! It trumps all for me when it comes to shipping. This is fantasy . . . give me the romance! I'm on season 6 and just so not into Luke. The fact that she ends up with him in so depressing to me. If she was in a bigger town with better options, I don't buy that she would look his way. To me, it feels as if she had to be with luke because he's the only decent, single man around. They were great friends. There was no need to make them bed buddies. I was pretty amazed to find out they were so loved. 

[dustylil]

I would say Emily and Richard lost Lorelai because they refused to start developing that adult relationship with her

 

And when they reconnected, Emily and Richard tried to pick up their relationship with Lorelai where it left off in the late eighties.

The intervening fourteen or fifteen years had never taken place. They were once again the hard-done-by parents of a wilful and baffling young woman.

[shron17]

In fairness to them, Lorelai wasn't exactly the exemplar of good decision making.  Even if they had been willing to start developing an adult relationship with her, that probably ended when they realized she was pregnant.

But that doesn't really matter. Sadly teenagers aren't required to prove their decision-making ability but become legal adults at 18 regardless, and parents who keep trying to control them usually just make things worse.  Lorelai said she became an adult when the stick turned pink, and seemed very aware that every decision affected her baby's life as well as hers. Once she turned 18 she had the right to make decisions for herself and for Rory whether her parents agreed or not.

Edited March 6, 2016 by shron17

[moonb]

I agree that Emily should have put in more effort, but in 1.03 Lorelai does say to Rory "I didn't mean to cut you off from them so completely, you know. It just happened. Not having them in my life just felt so right. I just never thought -- I'm sorry." this combined with the facts that we learned in 1.06 that Emily and Richard came to the inn to visit when Rory was little and in 6.13 we learn that Emily invited Lorelai to the first Christmas party after she left Hartford leads me to believe that the estrangement was largely by Lorelai's choice.

 

I tend to think they were never really able to escape the teenager/parent relationship.  It just kind of stayed in amber when Lorelai left, and restarted when Lorelai returned.  Essentially, Emily and Richard didn't know how to treat Lorelai like an adult because they never had an adult relationship with her.

 

If you replaced "Emily and Richard" with "Christopher," this might also apply to Lorelai and Christopher's stuck-at-16-years-old relationship, especially in seasons 1-2. It's obviously not a perfect comparison, since Lorelai and Chris are equals and there's the absence of the power dynamics between parent and child. But was Christopher mostly absent from Rory's childhood because he was a flighty teenage deadbeat dad who didn't put enough effort in to trying to see Rory? Or was Lorelai always suspicious like she was in his first series appearance, saying she "left the door open for him" but assuming he'd inevitably disappear? 

 

I don't know - it's very chicken and egg: who came first?, and I'm NOT blaming Lorelai for Christopher's actions, in any way.  It just occurred to me that one consistent aspect of Lorelai's characterization over the whole series is that she compartmentalizes everything and everyone outside of herself and Rory, and maybe her leaving home was a cause of that - her and Rory against the world, even the rest of their family, and to a much lesser extent, her friends and the town. Even in season 7 once she and Christopher were married, it was difficult for her to make room for him in her house and life in a serious way. 

[dustylil]

But was Christopher mostly absent from Rory's childhood because he was a flighty teenage deadbeat dad who didn't put enough effort in to trying to see Rory?

 

At least "Emily and Richard" put in an occasional appearance in Stars Hollow. Initially visiting Lorelai and Rory at the Independence Inn and then attending Rory's sixteenth birthday party. Christopher didn't show up until his daughter was some months past her sixteenth birthday. No longer  "a flighty teenage deadbeat dad" - but a flighty thirty something deadbeat father and businessman.

Or was Lorelai always suspicious like she was in his first series appearance, saying she "left the door open for him" but assuming he'd inevitably disappear

 

She got that right. Even in the later seasons when there was at least a tenuous relationship between Rory and her father, they were out of touch for months on end. Christopher knew nothing of the yacht theft and was unaware that she had dropped out of Yale until after she had decided to return.

[dirtypop90]

And I think I also have no issue with chris because of my own family. I was raised by a mom that wanted to do it all on her own. Many people would say my dad was a "deadbeat" because he wasn't around but there was nothing he could do except create an ugly custody battle. My father respected my mom's wishes. My mom "left the door open" for him to drop by occasionally and call, but that's it. She admitted this all to me when I was older.  She said she didn't even want to have to send me over to his place for weekends.  It's pretty difficult for other people to wrap their heads around it, especially since my dad is actually a good, stable guy, but that's the story. Also, oddly enough, my parents grew up together and are still friends, long after I left the nest and my father married and had other kids.

 

So no I don't think chris is a deadbeat because I don't think lorelai wanted him and rory to have a strong father/daughter relationship. Sure she wanted him to come by more and show up at events, but I don't for one second believe she would have agreed to split custody or even to a visitation schedule. If he would've took her to court, she would've raised hell and would hate him now because she wanted it to be her and rory against the world.

Edited March 6, 2016 by dirtypop90

[dustylil]

I don't for one second believe she would have agreed to split custody or even to a visitation schedule.

 

Given that Rory and Christopher were not even in regular, on-going contact until Rory was seventeen, it seems unlikely that he

would have been interested in  a visitation schedule, let alone any kind of shared or split custody.

[dirtypop90]

Given that Rory and Christopher were not even in regular, on-going contact until Rory was seventeen, it seems unlikely that he

would have been interested in  a visitation schedule, let alone any kind of shared or split custody.

 

I'm talking from the beginning. I don't think she ever wanted him or anyone else to have a hand in raising rory. He could have been the most stable guy in the world and I don't buy she would have ever listened to him when it came to what was best for rory, and I don't think she would've ever agreed to visitation, even if he was the best guy ever. She didn't want to share rory with anyone. Contact i.e. him staying on her couch sometimes would've been fine with her but him showing up with his lawyer trying to work out a visitation schedule where rory actually had to go live with christopher every other week? no way jose. She would've hit the roof.

 

I think she just wanted chris around more to hangout with rory so rory wouldn't feel like she was missing out on having a father. I do not believe she actually wanted him to help her raise her. She wanted to make all the decisions about rory from the beginning.

Edited March 6, 2016 by dirtypop90

[andromeda331]

I think she was realistic. She knows what to expect from Christopher. When he shows up in Stars Hollow for

the first time, she the one trying to warn her daughter that he wasn't going to stay. When everyone else was

praising Christopher's new business, she knew was the only one who knew it was a lie. Christopher was always

going to be the parent who showed up for a few days and then took off for who knows how long. It took him sixteen

years to show up in Stars Hollow. He had sixteen years to grow up, get a job and take care of his kid. He never did.

He tried to buy a book for Rory and his card was decline, Rory's reaction showed that wasn't a surprise. 

Edited March 6, 2016 by andromeda331

[JayInChicago]

I could sort of think of a backstory where Lorelai rebuffing teenage Chris's attempt to be a present father may have led to what we see in Christopher returns and onward in the series. It's a little murky and somewhat unlikely but I can sort of see it. Chris also isn't known for having a strong personality and it's easily possible his asshole parents steamrolled right over any early attempts. This doesn't justify his deadbeatness but might explain a little of it. He never does seem to grow up though. If he had grown up, he never would have married Lorelai because he would have easily realized they weren't right for each other.

[dustylil]

I'm talking from the beginning. I don't think she ever wanted him or anyone else to have a hand in raising rory. He could have been the most stable guy in the world and I don't buy she would have ever listened to him when it came to what was best for rory, and I don't think she would've ever agreed to visitation, even if he was the best guy ever. She didn't want to share rory with anyone. Contact i.e. him staying on her couch sometimes would've been fine with her but him showing up with his lawyer trying to work out a visitation schedule................. ? no way jose. She would've hit the roof.

 

Substitute "April" for "Rory" and I would be inclined to agree :)

[dirtypop90]

It's all good. I realize it is an unpopular opinion. lol And I haven't finished the series, but based on what I've seen so far, I couldn't imagine a scenario where she would've agreed to share custody with chris, even if he had come to her right after he dropped out of college. I don't think she wanted his help parenting but IA that she would've been receptive to him coming to town to visit and was fine with him calling. 

Edited March 6, 2016 by dirtypop90

[shron17]

He never does seem to grow up though. If he had grown up, he never would have married Lorelai because he would have easily realized they weren't right for each other.

I for one would have loved to see Christopher grow up enough to be more supportive to Rory by the end of the series.  Like after the proposal when Lorelai went after Rory and asked Christopher if he wanted to come, he could have accepted.  He could have told Rory he was going to go and let her talk to her mom but just wanted to let her know he would support her whatever she decided, and to call him if she wanted to talk about it. Personally, I see the idea of Rory needing only Lorelai or wanting it to be the two of them against the world as a fairy tale.  All of the single parents I have known, including myself, were happy to have any support offered whether it be physical, financial or emotional.  It's a hard job for one person.

 

Contact i.e. him staying on her couch sometimes would've been fine with her but him showing up with his lawyer trying to work out a visitation schedule where rory actually had to go live with christopher every other week? no way jose. She would've hit the roof.

I think the kind of shared parenting you're referring to is used more when the parents were raising the child together for a number of years and then split up, not so much in a case like Lorelai's where they were never married.  Since Christopher spent all those years in California it wouldn't have been possible anyway

Edited March 6, 2016 by shron17

[dirtypop90]

 

 

I think the kind of shared parenting you're referring to is used more when the parents were raising the child together for a number of years and then split up, not so much in a case like Lorelai's where they were never married.  Since Christopher spent all those years in California it wouldn't have been possible anyway

 

No, I know parents who have shared custody and were never married because the father took the mother to court and he got a set visitation schedule with the kid going back and forth every other week. And correct me if I'm wrong, Chris didn't live in california in the beginning. Even if he did, I know of situations where the mother has had to pack the kid up and put it on the plane so the father could get his time for the summer and holidays. I think Lorelai would've hated him if he tried either. My goodness...could you imagine if chris all put together arrived in stars hollow when rory was a toddler and said rory should stay with me in hartford every other week? You think she would've said ok? she probably would've moved across country.