One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[dustylil]

EyesHIgh, Yes, I have my doubts too. Perhaps when the show was first airing she was constrained by the network and other pressures. But by the later seasons, when she was in control and pretty much mistress of all she surveyed? Plus those crass gay jokes throughout the series? I think she was talking out of one of her many hats about her original intent.

[Eyes High]

On the Gilmore Guys podcast the guys mentioned talking to Rose Abdoo and she said that she played Gypsy's scenes with Lorelai as if she were in love with her. Make of that what you will...

 

I didn't want to stereotype Gypsy as a lesbian, but yeah, I can see it.

 

EyesHIgh, Yes, I have my doubts too. Perhaps when the show was first airing she was constrained by the network and other pressures. But by the later seasons, when she was in control and pretty much mistress of all she surveyed? Plus those crass gay jokes throughout the series? I think she was talking out of one of her many hats about her original intent.

 

Bunheads, a show that aired when LGBT representation was already pretty common on ABC Family Shows (Pretty Little Liars, e.g.), had terrible LGBT representation as well--I think Sasha had an offscreen gay dad who was never named--so it does seem to be a bit of a pattern with her. The "Tee hee, everyone would be gay!" thing would be fine if she meant it, but if she really thought it was important to push LGBT representation, I agree with your observation that there would have been some sign of it later in the show when she had more creative control, as well as in Bunheads. As it is, that "Everyone would be gay!" comment is pretty obnoxious if she doesn't mean it. Now that the revival is coming, we'll see whether or not she cares at all about even token LGBT representation. Even outing Michel would be something. Put up or shut up.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Eyes High

[dustylil]

Even if the show had had some peripheral characters - perhaps one of Rory's first year suite mates, a Yale professor Rory thought well of,  a Stars Hollow business person, or even Logan's sister - I might believe ASP's sincerity about  wanting some LGBT  representation. Of course one late season addition who would have been interesting in this capacity was Anna Nardini.

 

If offered the choice, in the new iteration I would prefer Taylor to be outed - and nobody in Stars Hollow giving a damn.

[txhorns79]

Perhaps when the show was first airing she was constrained by the network and other pressures. But by the later seasons, when she was in control and pretty much mistress of all she surveyed?

 

I'm not sure if that is actually true.  I think ASP has spoken about her battles with the network that happened regularly throughout her time as showrunner, including into the show's later seasons.  I'd just remind people that Gilmore Girls was popular for The WB, but it wasn't some smash hit on the same level as Friends.  For any character being added to the show on a recurring or regular basis, ASP would likely need network approval.  My understanding of the process is that the network reviews scripts, gives approval to plotlines and characters, along with asking for changes to both.  If the network nixes something, ASP doesn't have the freedom to do it anyways.  

 

I would agree that gay jokes that likely flew right by when the show first aired seem much more glaring now, particularly if you are someone who regularly re-watches the show.  I can't really speak as to ASP's "sincerity" on having a gay character on Gilmore Girls.  It seems over the top to suggest she is lying, unless you actually know her and have insight into her thought process.   

Edited December 4, 2015 by txhorns79

[Eyes High]

The gay-jokes-without-gay-characters and lack of any LGBT representation in the main and secondary cast are something that really date the show, as much as the clothes and the technology (although even in the early 2000s there were out gay characters on "family-friendly" or teen-oriented shows: Kyle on Everwood, Willow and Tara on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc.). Are there any other aspects of the writing that seem very dated now, only seven years after the last episode aired?

 

I'm not sure if that is actually true.  I think ASP has spoken about her battles with the network that happened regularly throughout her time as showrunner, including into the show's later seasons.  I'd just remind people that Gilmore Girls was popular for The WB, but it wasn't some smash hit on the same level as Friends.  For any character being added to the show on a recurring or regular basis, ASP would likely need network approval.  My understanding of the process is that the network reviews scripts, gives approval to plotlines and characters, along with asking for changes to both.  If the network nixes something, ASP doesn't have the freedom to do it anyways.

 

I don't know. It's telling that lack of diversity--both in ethnicity and sexuality--is common across all of ASP's shows, even the post-GG ones. The Return of Jezebel James was lily-white and super-straight as well. There's a pattern at play that can't be adequately explained by ASP being throttled by the networks. It's not much of an excuse when Ugly Betty, which started airing when GG was winding down, and which aired on ABC, and which ended before Bunheads ever saw the light of day, had a young gay man and an adult gay man in the lead cast as well as a prominent trans character; when Glee, which aired on Fox like Jezebel James and which started airing in 2010, had diversity, several prominent LGBT characters and a trans character; or when Pretty Little Liars, which started airing just before Bunheads on ABC Family, had a lesbian character among the young female leads.

 

It's one thing if she just doesn't want to write LGBT characters for whatever reason (although if that's the case, she would benefit from hiring an LGBT writer who could assist her in crafting realistic LGBT characters). It's another thing to make disingenuous statements implying that she would have gay characters on GG if it were made now when her post-GG characters have had absolutely no LGBT representation. "Everyone would be gay," Amy? Well, the revival's coming up. Prove it. 

 

I would like to see someone call ASP on her shitty track record on LGBT representation. When Shonda Rhimes called her out for the lack of racial diversity in the leads on Bunheads, her response (whining that she doesn't do "message" shows and complaining about woman-on-woman showrunner hate) completely failed to address the problem. I'm not confident that she would be any less useless and defensive when it came to being called out on LGBT representation.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Eyes High

[amensisterfriend]

This may be unpopular, but I will never, ever believe that Michel was straight! His occasionally lamely inserted lines about being a hit "with the ladies" did nothing whatsoever to convince me of anything other than that maybe the network was panicked over the audience thinking he was (*gasp*) not heterosexual. 

 

I do think it's true that for a show that was somewhat progressive in certain respects, they did actually have some pretty outdated ideas about gender and relationships (brutish anger and jealousy are super attractive, amIright?! And females, in between calming down their never-not-angry dream guys, can totally tame and change promiscuous playboys IF they're 'special' enough! And...don't get me started :)), sexual orientation (absolutely everyone's straight!), socioeconomic class (half of AS-P's ideas about class divisions seem to hail from 1880s England) etc. A lot of it was outdated even for the time it was made, and I agree that some of it is more glaring today. 

[Eyes High]

This may be unpopular, but I will never, ever believe that Michel was straight! His occasionally lamely inserted lines about being a hit "with the ladies" did nothing whatsoever to convince me of anything other than that maybe the network was panicked over the audience thinking he was (*gasp*) not heterosexual.

 

I always assumed he was gay, too, but the whole "He's super gay--he loves Celine Dion, wink wink nudge nudge--but we're not actually going to come out (no pun intended) and say it" thing or the "He acts super gay, but psych! He's straight!" thing is so, so dated to me, especially now that more and more gay characters are being written for standard network TV sitcoms who do not fit the stereotypical gay mold (the curt, solemn Holt on Brooklyn 99, the slobby, fratty Max on Happy Endings, etc.).

 

I do think it's true that for a show that was somewhat progressive in certain respects, they did actually have some pretty outdated ideas about gender and relationships (brutish anger and jealousy are super attractive, amIright?! And females, in between calming down their never-not-angry dream guys, can totally tame and change promiscuous playboys IF they're 'special' enough! And...don't get me started :)), sexual orientation (absolutely everyone's straight!), socioeconomic class (half of AS-P's ideas about class divisions seem to hail from 1880s England) etc. A lot of it was outdated even for the time it was made, and I agree that some of it is more glaring today.

 

Rory's insanely PG-rated courtship with Dean also seems really dated, like something out of a Korean drama. The "a woman taming a rich, promiscuous playboy with the power of love and purity of heart" is a standard romance trope that you tend to see less of in TV these days--I think there's a push in network drama for more sophisticated storytelling--but I agree that it's dated; I've noticed that audiences for romances in more conservative social climates looooooove this trope.

 

Also, the only ambiguously gay character in Gilmore Girls is highly stereotypical, which is also dated. (I'm not sure whether Tobin was established to be gay, even though he was coded that way.) There are gay dudes running around who are fashion-conscious, bitchy, deeply devoted to their pets, and Celine Dion fans, but there are also gay dudes who don't give a shit about fashion, gay dudes who are perfectly pleasant, gay dudes who hate animals, and gay dudes who would rather puncture their own eardrums than go to a Celine Dion concert. There are gay dudes who look and act exactly like Luke, the most "straight-acting" dude in the entire show! The approach of either you're gay and super flamboyant or you're straight is a false dichotomy that is utterly dated.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Eyes High

[33kaitykaity]

Rory's insanely PG-rated courtship with Dean also seems really dated, like something out of a Korean drama. The "a woman taming a rich, promiscuous playboy with the power of love and purity of heart" is a standard romance trope that you tend to see less of in TV these days--I think there's a push in network drama for more sophisticated storytelling--but I agree that it's dated; I've noticed that audiences for romances in more conservative social climates looooooove this trope.

And then there was Lorelai's whisper of "I got the good kid" when she overhears Rory and Paris talk about Paris having just had sex with Jamie -- I feel like gagging every time I watch that.  

[Eyes High]

And then there was Lorelai's whisper of "I got the good kid" when she overhears Rory and Paris talk about Paris having just had sex with Jamie -- I feel like gagging every time I watch that.  

 

Lauren Graham felt the same way about having to say the line. The depressing part is that she says that people have come up to her and indicated that they really liked that line.

[dustylil]

"a woman taming a rich, promiscuous playboy with the power of love and purity of heart"

 

What purity of heart? She was in the position of buying him a sweater. Although I never thought Logan himself was aware of this.

 

[txhorns79]

Lauren Graham felt the same way about having to say the line. The depressing part is that she says that people have come up to her and indicated that they really liked that line.

 

Lauren Graham may not have liked it, but it does seem like something Lorelai would think, just given how her life can basically be divided into before pregnancy/after pregnancy periods and how she was told that she essentially destroyed the life her parents had planned for her by getting pregnant. 

 

 

Rory's insanely PG-rated courtship with Dean also seems really dated, like something out of a Korean drama.

 

I don't know.  I think he was presented as Rory's first real boyfriend, so it wouldn't be surprising to me that Rory would move very slowly. Also, half the time, it seemed like Dean was more concerned about winning Lorelai's approval than taking things up a notch with Rory. 

[Taryn74]

I don't know.  I think he was presented as Rory's first real boyfriend, so it wouldn't be surprising to me that Rory would move very slowly.  

 

Agreed.  Plus, they were very, very young still.  I didn't find their relationship (or lack of, if you want to look at it that way) to be at all unbelievable.  If they were both in their 20s and still only exchanging chaste pecks on the lips, I might think 'whatever, show' but not at 16 and 17 years old.

 

Also, half the time, it seemed like Dean was more concerned about winning Lorelai's approval than taking things up a notch with Rory.

 

HA!  Did you ever get the impression, like I did at times, that Dean almost seemed to think he was dating the two of them as a unit?

[dustylil]

Rory's insanely PG-rated courtship with Dean also seems really dated

 

I too didn't find their relationship particularly dated given that they met when Rory was all of fifteen. And the daughter of someone who herself got knocked up at fifteen. Sometimes - and especially given the circumstances of  her own conception - the apple really does fall far from the tree.

lack of diversity--both in ethnicity and sexuality--is common across all of ASP's shows

 

I concur about the lack of sexual diversity, but is a dearth of ethnic diversity a fair comment for Gilmore Girls? Off the top, I recall we had WASP, Korean and Jewish families, a Black mother and son, a single Hispanic lady,and a smattering of those with Italian origins.

Edited December 5, 2015 by dustylil

[JayInChicago]

I tread lightly on this topic buttttttt...

ok so for someone in the LGBT community (under more than one letter) I've never really understood why people think Taylor is gay, necessarily. I think that's a bad stereotype because he's fussy and bossy and prissy. Michel is a little different, because the Celine Dion references (though kind of a silly nudge at Yanic, a Quebecois fellow) and thinness/calorie counting, fashion, etc are all very blatant references to a certain type of gay guy of a certain age. It would mean much more to me if they would have let Michel be a femme straight man OR a totally out gay guy--honestly, the femme straight man would have been an interesting meta-turn on the ol' stereotype.  

 

Taylor, Taylor, Taylor...dare I say it....I just kind of "head cannon" (ugh did I just type that) Taylor as a repressed, deeply closeted non-self-accepting trans woman. There's something both asexual/sexless (as a man) about him with a huge amount of repressed energy turned into being the Taylor we know and love.  I'm sure my wondering if maybe Taylor is a repressed trans woman is just as bad as everyone else assuming he is gay and closeted, but eh.

 

Miss Patty with her love of masculinity and her high femme self I could actually see trying out late in life butch/femme relationships. :)

 

HA!  Did you ever get the impression, like I did at times, that Dean almost seemed to think he was dating the two of them [Rory and Lorelai] as a unit?

 

YESSS AND IT WAS GROSSSSS.  There was the whole "just because you and Rory broke up doesn't mean we have to" (possibly not verbatim quote there) from Lorelai and honestly if we are really getting down to brass tacks, Lorelai sometimes seems to size Rory's men up in ways that are a bit inappropriate.

[JayInChicago]

Off the top, I recall we had WASP, Korean and Jewish families, a Black mother and son, a single Hispanic lady,and a smattering of those with Italian origins.

 

Wow you all are commenting too fast for me to gather all my thoughts lol.

I take issue with some of this actually.  We had WASPs and Koreans, yes. There were some Jewish folks, like the seen a few times Rabbi, and of course Paris, probably one of the greatest Jewish characters on a popular tv show, helped by the fact, perhaps, that Liza is Jewish and Amy SP had a Jewish dad.  But besides that, not much.  Who are you counting as the single Hispanic lady?  I was never sure if Miss Patty and/or Gypsy were meant to be Latinas. Rose Abdoo is Lebanese and Dominican (and might I say it, amazingly beautiful), and Liz Torres is of Puerto Rican background, and I 'read' Miss Patty as Puerto Rican, but I'm not sure it was ever made clear in the show. Michel's blackness was really only referenced by his mother showing up and also being black. In some regards that is progressive--he could just "be Michel" a hair trigger, fussy Frenchman, but arguably it seems erasing to not have it come up ever on the show.

[Eyes High]

I concur about the lack of sexual diversity, but is a dearth of ethnic diversity a fair comment for Gilmore Girls? Off the top, I recall we had WASP, Korean and Jewish families, a Black mother and son, a single Hispanic lady,and a smattering of those with Italian origins.

 

Given that FRIENDS was notoriously pilloried almost 20 years ago for its lily-white cast despite the fact that one of the main characters was Jewish, two were half-Jewish, and one was Italian, I don't think GG gets any diversity cookies in this day and age for having white-passing Italian and Jewish characters. As for the "Black mother," his mother showed up, what, once? Again, you don't get any diversity cookies for a character who only appears in one episode of a 154-episode show.

 

What bothers me more is that even given the demographics of Connecticut, there were so many missed opportunities, especially once Rory got to Yale. An overwhelming number of fellow students were white, and not even "white-passing" Jewish or Italian characters, but white. Marty? White. Doyle? White. Lucy? White. Logan? White. Colin? White. Finn? White. Marty? White. Logan's blonde bridesmaids hookups? White. Janet? White. Tana? White. The only exception that I can think of was Olivia, which was pretty pitiful even in 2004 when Rory started attending Yale. To be fair, GG wasn't the only show at the time with a diversity problem, but yeah, there was a big problem.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Eyes High

[dustylil]

Who are you counting as the single Hispanic lady

 

Miss Patty. Gypsy never occurred to me - we knew so little about her, including her last name. I wouldn't have hazarded a guess as to her ethnic background.

I thought Miss Patty because her surname - LaCosta -  can be Hispanic and the fact that her  career in show business involved  Latin American entertainment.

you don't get any diversity cookies for a character who only appears in one episode of a 154-episode show

 

No, but I thought the son might given that he appeared in the vast majority of the episodes of the series. 

 

And is the Kim family plus its extended network of cousins and fellow Korean 7th Day Adventists not to be included in the cookie count?

Edited December 5, 2015 by dustylil

[txhorns79]

I don't think GG gets any diversity cookies in this day and age for having white-passing Italian and Jewish characters.

 

What the heck is a "white-passing" Italian or Jewish character?  I mean, you are talking about race v. nationality v. religion at that point.   

 

 

HA!  Did you ever get the impression, like I did at times, that Dean almost seemed to think he was dating the two of them as a unit?

 

I felt very much at times like Lorelai talked about Dean and his relationship with Rory as though she wished she was dating him. 

 

 

In some regards that is progressive--he could just "be Michel" a hair trigger, fussy Frenchman, but arguably it seems erasing to not have it come up ever on the show.

 

I think that Michel was the kind of character that works best in limited quantities.  Though I'd also ask, how was Michel's race supposed to come up on the show?  I mean, it's not like Gilmore Girls was going to do a very special episode starring Michel, or that Stars Hollow was suddenly going to be overtaken by racists.     

[Taryn74]

It would mean much more to me if they would have let Michel be a femme straight man OR a totally out gay guy--honestly, the femme straight man would have been an interesting meta-turn on the ol' stereotype.

 

Honestly I never saw Michel as gay - just very, very, French.  For what it's worth, which is probably not much LOL.

 

'Asexual' is a good word to describe Taylor, IMO.

 

H

HA!  Did you ever get the impression, like I did at times, that Dean almost seemed to think he was dating the two of them [Rory and Lorelai] as a unit?

 

YESSS AND IT WAS GROSSSSS.

 

Heh.  The example I always think of is when Dean is schooling Max on Lorelai's quirks in...whatever episode it is where they all go on a double-date.  That just crosses so many levels of disturbing, I can't even count them.

[Kohola3]

Honestly I never saw Michel as gay - just very, very, French.  For what it's worth, which is probably not much LOL.

 

Ditto, Taryn. I always thought that the whole Celine Dion thing was so gay-centric that it was a red herring.

[dustylil]

some Jewish folks, like the seen a few times Rabbi, and of course Paris, probably one of the greatest Jewish characters on a popular tv show, helped by the fact, perhaps, that Liza is Jewish and Amy SP had a Jewish dad.  But besides that, not much

 

For what it is worth, we also had a Jewish funeral and that utterly bizarre production of Fiddler on the Roof.

The example I always think of is when Dean is schooling Max on Lorelai's quirks in...whatever episode it is where they all go on a double-date.  That just crosses so many levels of disturbing, I can't even count them

 

My daughter who is Rory's age  used to watch the early episodes  of the series when it first aired. Occasionally I would wander into the living room  and do a double-take at some of the scenes involving Dean and Lorelai. Wise as Marmee as I occasionally am, I kept my mouth shut and continued on.

[Eyes High]

No, but I thought the son might given that he appeared in the vast majority of the episodes of the series. 

 

And is the Kim family plus its extended network of cousins and fellow Korean 7th Day Adventists not to be included in the cookie count?

 

The only prominent Asians were Lane and her mother (the closest we got was Lane's cousin, Kyon, who was a very minor character and appeared in only five episodes out of 154). The "extended network of cousins" hardly matters if none of them have speaking roles, much like Bunheads doesn't get any cookies for LGBT representation because Sasha had a gay dad offscreen who never appeared and was never named.

 

As for Michel and Mrs. Kim, it's certainly something, but they're minor characters--Mrs. Kim was never a regular--in a sea of white recurring characters, other than the ambiguous Miss Patty and Gypsy, whose identities are never established. (Gypsy only appeared in 23 episodes, about 15% of the total episodes, so she's not much for representation in any event. Miss Patty appeared much more frequently--79 episodes--but her ethnic identity is never established other than a last name suggestive of Hispanic origin.) Zack? White. Brian? White. April? White. Sookie? White. Jackson? White. Kirk? White. Lulu? Taylor? White. Babette? White. Maury? White. Madeline? White. Louise? White. Liz? White. TJ? White (strongly implied to be Italian and played by an Italian actor, but yeah). If they were characters on par with some of the more prominent minor characters, fine, but Michel appeared in only a little more than half of all the episodes (compared to Kirk's ~70%). Mrs. Kim appeared in a little more than a quarter of all the episodes (even fewer episodes than Babette of all people, and only slightly more episodes than Madeline and Louise, who disappeared partway through the series!).

 

It would mean much more to me if they would have let Michel be a femme straight man OR a totally out gay guy--honestly, the femme straight man would have been an interesting meta-turn on the ol' stereotype.

 

I dunno. The "super-femme straight man" thing in TV characters seems so dated to me, since it seems that many of the "femme straight man" characters on TV came from an era where networks were a lot more worried about having openly gay lead characters on TV. (Niles on Frasier is a good example.) The other problem I have with the super-femme straight man TV character is that at least with these "femme straight man" characters on TV in past years, it seemed like a way of degrading those mannerisms by reassuring the audience that it was okay for a man to act like that as long as he was straight, or that it was okay that he behaved in a super-femme way, because he wasn't sleeping with men or anything "gross" like that. Also, femme straight men characters' femme-ness was used as a source of humour where other characters made fun of those qualities stereotypically associated with gay men (Niles on Frasier and Frasier himself, to a lesser extent), which seemed to be a way of indirectly mocking gay men. Assuming Michel was straight, there was a lot of this on GG with Michel.

 

To be fair, a lot of time has passed and those characters who would have been "ambiguous" if they'd been on TV 20 years ago are now out, proud, and married more often than not, so maybe things have changed. Maybe in 2015, we can have femme straight men characters without it seeming insulting to gay men in the same way. A fairly recent Canadian TV show, Being Erica, had a super-femme straight male character who ended up with a woman with no hint that he was anything other than straight (even though in the show many characters initially assumed he was gay). I don't recall his femme qualities being mined for laughs, and the show in general was fairly progressive when it came to sexuality. So maybe there's hope.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Eyes High

[photo fox]

I'm not familiar with small-town Connecticut at all, but would there be much racial diversity in a RL Stars Hollow? I'm from the upper Midwest, but small towns here are pretty white, and almost exclusively Christian or unchurched. Especially 15 years ago, though our towns are happily getting more diverse now.

Yale, OTOH, should definitely have had more diversity of all kinds.

[dustylil]

Washington Depot - the Connecticut town that inspired ASP to create Stars Hollow - was 95.66% white in its ethnicity as of the 2000 census.

 

Certainly, Yale should have been depicted as more diverse. I recall only one Black professor and he appeared in several episodes. He was the poor sap whose class was interrupted by Logan and his moronic cohorts in their prank to get Rory's attention. And one Black female student - Althea (named perhaps for the tennis legend Althea Gibson) - who was in a couple of episodes. It was she to whom Rory and Paris went to for guidance on some matter or another.

 

As to economic diversity, that could have been addressed with considerable comic effect with the DAR. There was no reason whatsoever that the DAR members be quite well-to-do as those of the Hartford chapter appeared to be. It would have been highly entertaining for some lowly but mouthy office clerk - having just discovered that she was descended from, say,  the stable boy who helped out Paul Revere with his horses - to apply for membership and demand to take an active role in the organization. And then she encouraged her sisters and cousins to join. Emily would view them as  she might silverfish.

[solotrek]

It didn't bother me in regards to Stars Hollow. It's a small town, I don't expect that much diversity.

 

I think it stands out a lot at both Chilton and Yale. Rory's classes were pretty white washed as well as most of campus. I've been to Yale, that's not what campus looks like. Aside from Henry, I don't remember any non-white people around Chilton. That's weird.

 

But Rory's best friends were an Asian-American Christian girl and a Jewish girl. She hung out with the black girl who was called Waverly on FNL. With how few peers Rory actually associated with, that's not a bad amount of diversity for her.

 

Edit to add: The lack of LGBT (which I think started the discussion) always stuck out to me. The WB/CW had a good amount of LGBT diversity in it's shows during Gilmore Girls run. I think Willow/Tara was a thing even before Gilmore Girls premiered. And I think Jack(?) on Dawson's Creek was pre-Gilmore as well. Heck, I think all the shows I saw on WB had a major gay character at some point (except Angel). That network was all about pushing things. Anyone remember the abortion episode of Everwood from it's first season? If anything, I assume ASP was pretty tone deaf in writing a character and that's why nothing ever materialized.

Edited December 7, 2015 by solotrek

[Eyes High]

It is true that the makeup of Washington Depot was overwhelmingly white in 2000. However, this show cheerfully stretched the boundaries of realism in many respects, so I don't think a stated desire to adhere to realistic demographics is much of a defence; the overwhelmingly white casts in Jezebel James (2/11 POC characters of the main cast, no POC leads, in Brooklyn of all places) and Bunheads (no POC leads, no Latino characters except the lead white Hispanic Sasha, when Oxnard, California, which is close to fictional Paradise, is 74% Hispanic), overwhelmingly white casts in far less overwhelmingly white locales suggests a troubling pattern on ASP's part that has nothing to do with realistic demographics. Furthermore, when you have only one minority lead character (Lane) and only one established visible minority character who recurs (Michel), it reeks of tokenism.

 

If you look at other shows which based their fictional towns on real places, Stars Hollow doesn't look so good. Pawnee of Parks and Recreation appears to have been based on Muncie, Indiana, which was 84.0% white as of 2010, 10.9% African-American, 2.4% Latino, and 1.2% Asian. And yet, in the lead cast of Parks of Rec, there is one African-American character (and another character played by a biracial actress), a character partly of Puerto Rican descent, and an Indian American character.

 

I do agree that the bigger problem in GG is the overwhelming whiteness of Yale and Chilton. There's no realism excuse there.

 

Edit to add: The lack of LGBT (which I think started the discussion) always stuck out to me. The WB/CW had a good amount of LGBT diversity in it's shows during Gilmore Girls run. I think Willow/Tara was a thing even before Gilmore Girls premiered. And I think Jack(?) on Dawson's Creek was pre-Gilmore as well. Heck, I think all the shows I saw on WB had a major gay character at some point (except Angel). That network was all about pushing things. Anyone remember the abortion episode of Everwood from it's first season? If anything, I assume ASP was pretty tone deaf in writing a character and that's why nothing ever materialized.

 

Everwood also had a "family-friendly" (read: conservative) vibe like GG, but it broached some pretty heavy stuff: depression, abortion, suicide attempts, etc. There were no gay lead characters, but there was a big storyline later in the show about Ephram's piano student coming out as gay.

 

Buffy the Vampire Slayer was pretty out there when it came to sexuality on teen-oriented TV in the 1990s/2000s. There was a lead character who came out as gay (Willow), who had two onscreen relationships with recurring characters (Tara, although apparently the WB forbade them from kissing onscreen except for the one time, and then Kennedy). There was a recurring gay male character (Larry) for the early seasons. I'm not sure whether Faith's bisexuality was ever canon, but there seemed to be a lot of Buffy/Faith subtext.

 

The other big WB shows running around that time other than BTVS were Felicity, Dawson's Creek, Popular, Roswell, Smallville, and One Tree Hill (which started in 2003):

 

1. Felicity had the recurring gay character Javier. He actually married his boyfriend in the finale for the 1999/2000 season, which seems crazy given that the same network that greenlit a gay marriage forbade virtually any onscreen lesbian kissing on another show. Noel's brother also came out to Noel.

2. Jack was a lead on Dawson's Creek. He dated at least one guy and was shown to be living with his boyfriend in the flashforward finale.

3. On Popular, there were a number of recurring LGBT characters, including a gender-ambiguous teacher (Bobbi), one lead's lesbian mother, a transgender MTF shop teacher, and a black gay male drama teacher. No out lesbian or gay leads, though. Lead Lily also indicated that she had experimented. On the other hand, this is a Ryan Murphy show, who makes a point of ensuring LGBT visibility, so...

4. Roswell had no gay or lesbian characters.

5. Ditto for Smallville. (Insert your own Clark/Lex joke here.) The wonderful out gay actor John Glover camped it up beautifully as Lionel Luthor, though. He pretty much spawned the Magnificent Bastard trope at TV Tropes.

6. One Tree Hill had no lead LGBT characters, but had a storyline in Season 2 (2004-2005) about a recurring female character coming out as a lesbian. She disappeared after Season 2, though.

 

Seems to be a mixed bag in the LGBT department; Gilmore Girls wasn't the only WB show lacking in LGBT representation at that time. To be fair to Gilmore Girls, the other WB shows airing in the early 2000s I've mentioned sucked at diversity, too. Having one token minority among the leads like GG (Lane) seemed to be pretty standard (Irv on Everwood, Elena on Felicity and I guess Javier even though he was recurring, etc.) The only really diverse dramas airing on network TV at that time that I can recall were the procedurals, like Homicide, which ended in 1999, ER and Third Watch. I'm not sure it excuses anything to say that the other shows were terrible, especially when ASP didn't seem to change this with her newer shows, but it is useful for context.

 

Even today, there's still a big diversity problem on TV. It seems like shows are either awesome at diversity--Shonda Rhimes' shows, Brooklyn 99 (4/7 POC leads), Community (4/9 POC leads), Elementary (2/4 POC leads), Orange is the New Black (6/13 POC leads), Jane the Virgin, etc.--or terrible (Girls, Veep, etc.). Not surprisingly, the shows with more racial diversity tend to have more LGBT representation. From what I can tell, deliberate attempts at diversity and LGBT representation seem to have to come from the showrunners, like with Shonda Rhimes' shows. They have to make it a priority. I don't know how much we can hope for in the revival on that front, given ASP's track record.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Eyes High

[timimouse]

But Rory's best friends were an Asian-American Christian girl and a Jewish girl. She hung out with the black girl who was called Waverly on FNL. With how few peers Rory actually associated with, that's not a bad amount of diversity for her.

 

 

I had absolutely no recollection of this and had to check IMDB before asking you when did this happen. I'm not sure I agree that 2 episodes count. And although Paris claimed to be Jewish, she didn't appear to be practising. Also, on a slightly more shallow note, Rory didn't consider Paris to be her best friend, that was the other way around and not reciprocated.

 

I will say that I agree with what was stated by an earlier poster, is it really realistic to not have much racial diversity? I don't think it detracted anything from the show itself.

[txhorns79]

And although Paris claimed to be Jewish, she didn't appear to be practicing.

 

I don't think Paris "claimed" to be Jewish, so much as the character was written as being Jewish and Paris referenced being Jewish sometimes.  And honestly, I think we are in a strange place if there is an actual discussion as to whether a fictional character did enough sufficiently Jewish things on screen to be considered Jewish, even though said character said she was Jewish. 

[dustylil]

although Paris claimed to be Jewish, she didn't appear to be practising

 

Paris did have a bat mitzvah, complete with a dress with menorahs on the collar. So at least a few years before we met her, she was somewhat observant.

[solotrek]

I had absolutely no recollection of this and had to check IMDB before asking you when did this happen. I'm not sure I agree that 2 episodes count.

 

I think we had to infer that for Rory to be somewhat comfortable around her, they did have some "hanging out" off scenes.

 

I will say that I agree with what was stated by an earlier poster, is it really realistic to not have much racial diversity? I don't think it detracted anything from the show itself.

I have to say that I found Yale to be disturbingly white washed and it really distracted me. My brother went to another Ivy around the time Rory was at Yale and I was able to visit him and see some of his classes when I started applying later. I also toured other colleges in general. It's just not realistic and really bothered me. Let's be realistic, there was a shocking lack of Asians in GG Yale. And to have racial diversity shown, they'd just have to hire background actors who don't have to speak. But that might be because I'm Asian and really notice things like this.

 

On the other side, I don't think I have as much of an issue with them not having racial diversity within the main cast. It's a show that's ostensibly about these 2 women and the people around them. I know if there was a show about my life, there'd be an absurd number of "all kinds of Asians" and "white people".

[DisneyBoy]

I'm really glad to see these issues getting discussed right now because having just rewatched the second season, I'm reminded once again of how irritating I found the character of Michel to be. I guess it really shouldn't bother me one way or the other whether his sexuality was labelled, considering he really wasn't a main character (in spite of being featured in the opening credits, for some mysterious reason) but ASP gave him so many "gay" tics it just felt bizarre to see them throw in moments with him judging drag queens or saying women are after him. Why wouldn't they just say he's gay and let that be the end of it?

In reality, you can be a gay man without any interest in dieting or Destiny's Child. But considering how gay people were (lightly) mocked by the leads of this show, having a single man who obsesses over his weight, loves Celine Dion and Destiny's Child and fashion, owns two doggies and is insanely chummy with his mother working alongside them without setting off any alarms felt really disingenuous. Given what we know about Lorelai, even if she really really respected Michel she would have made a comment or whispered to Sookie about Michel's possible preferences. If she was willing to make a crack about Luke, she would have definitely made one about Michel.

But no...no one says a word and instead we get these really forced comments every once in a while about his hetero-ness. If it was an attempt to insulate them against network ire, it was half-hearted at best and made the character less relatable in the end.

I think they should have just said nothing, seen how the character was coming off and just let the audience clue in.

Tobin was definitely gay, though. Which makes his rivalry with can't-be-gay Michel even more bizarre and almost condescending. Oh look - the two fruity guys battling it out for Lorelai's affection! But one has to pretend he isn't really so obsessed with being her true BFF! HawHaw!

Tobin may have been a sycophant, but I found it really bizarre how over the top his attempts were to become Lorelai's friend when the show clearly had no interest in keeping him around as a recurring character. In his appearances, he gets more screen time then the harp player from the earliest episodes, but he is treated with just as little respect in terms of show continuity and being referenced later on.

All in all, I just didn't think this show made it at all a priority to offer respectful portrayals of LGBT characters, and it does make me sad because it's such an interesting show in so many other respects.

And I never particularly saw Taylor as gay, FYI. Just...quirky.

Edited December 8, 2015 by DisneyBoy

[dustylil]

I too didn't think Taylor was necessarily gay. In my earlier post I was just suggesting him as someone who, while respected, was not particularly liked in Stars Hollow.  And the townies, while  aware that he was gay, didn't think it was of any importance to them. Which is pretty much how it should be.

 

There is no doubt that the series had a number of flaws in the representation of all types of diversity. But for myself I will always be appreciative of the fact that it was - at least to the best of my knowledge - the first American series focussing on a single parent and child where both were female.

[takalotti]

Marty? White. Doyle? White. Lucy? White. Logan? White. Colin? White. Finn? White. Marty? White. Logan's blonde bridesmaids hookups? White. Janet? White. Tana? White.

 

Ha! As a huge Marty fan, I'm getting a big kick out of his repeat appearance on this list ;)

Honestly I never saw Michel as gay - just very, very, French.  For what it's worth, which is probably not much LOL.

I believe it was on the "International" season of Last a Comic Standing where a French comic said, "I always hear that French people sound gay. No no no, this is not true! Gay people sound French!"

[dustylil]

Ha! As a huge Marty fan, I'm getting a big kick out of his repeat appearance on this list ;)

 

But there were two Martys! The first was the likeable, middle class guy with the unrequited crush on Rory we saw in Seasons 4 and 5.

Then there was Season 7's  sullen, stalkerish fellow with the same name who had never  met Rory before.

[Eyes High]

Marty was so white I had to include him twice, LOL.

I agree that Tobin and Michel battling it out for Lorelai was very odd.

I believe it was on the "International" season of Last a Comic Standing where a French comic said, "I always hear that French people sound gay. No no no, this is not true! Gay people sound French!"

 

I don't know about Frenchmen coming across as gay (and "he's not gay, he's just French, hahaha" can be pretty insulting, given that Frenchmen are no more a monolith than gay men are, and that there are many gay Frenchmen who do not check any of the gay stereotype boxes), but I do think there can be a cultural component to these sorts of perceptions. Rogelio on Jane the Virgin is flamboyant, vain, extremely dramatic, exquisitely dressed (in lavender more often than not)...and 100% straight.

 

 

 

And I never particularly saw Taylor as gay, FYI. Just...quirky.

 

I don't think I ever thought of Taylor being gay when the show was still on. It was only with hindsight that I got a vibe. I always got a gay vibe from a number of characters who were canonically straight (Paris, Digger, etc.), though, so who knows?

Edited December 9, 2015 by Eyes High

[Guest]

I think the discussion/speculation on which characters were or were not gay as well as certain stereotypes has been exhausted.  Let's please move on to other unpopular opinions.

[DisneyBoy]

Hey, don't hit the breaks! This is the first discussion I've ever seen on the topic, and a thoughtful one at that.

Maybe it deserves its own topic if you think this isn't the right thread?

As for Unpopular Opinions, I still like Liz and TJ. They just happened to come along at a time when the writing overall was less funny and more tiresome. He definitely got way too much screentime during the reno...but maybe ASP needed to keep costs down by giving more scenes to a new cast member who probably wasn't earning as much. Just a theory though...

I would have liked more Liz/Jess time, just a wee bit. Pre-arrival Liz seemed so cold compared to the one we were finally introduced to. Maybe she was always stoned and with loser types and Jess got fed up of it all and that's what started the problems for him...but it sounded more like Liz was cold-hearted when Luke and Jess described her.

Edited December 9, 2015 by DisneyBoy

[Taryn74]

I agree about Liz and TJ.

 

I would have liked more Liz/Jess time, just a wee bit. Pre-arrival Liz seemed so cold compared to the one we were finally introduced to. Maybe she was always stoned and with loser types and Jess got fed up of it all and that's what started the problems for him...but it sounded more like Liz was cold-hearted when Luke and Jess described her.

 

Hmm, I don't know.  Luke, maybe, but I never got the vibe from Jess that he saw Liz as cold-hearted or uncaring.  She was just really messed up and it took her many years to get to a good place.  (Which was why Luke was always so frustrated with her, he didn't have the patience for what he saw as immaturity and irresponsibility.)  I have long since fanwanked that Liz was actually going into rehab when she sent Jess to stay with Luke, but she didn't tell Luke that.  Jess knew, but not Luke.  To me, that would go a long way toward explaining why:  1) Jess agreed to go live in Stars Hollow rather than just leaving with an eff you to his mother;  2) Jess knew Luke was lying about Liz calling and wanting him to come home for Christmas break (Bracebridge Dinner) but he didn't seem upset about it; 3) when Luke gave Jess the ultimatum to either repeat his senior year or get out, Jess went to California instead of back home; 4) Liz was finally able to get her act together this time; and 5) her relationship with TJ wasn't just another guy in a long string of guys.

[txhorns79]

As for Unpopular Opinions, I still like Liz and TJ. They just happened to come along at a time when the writing overall was less funny and more tiresome. He definitely got way too much screentime during the reno...but maybe ASP needed to keep costs down by giving more scenes to a new cast member who probably wasn't earning as much. Just a theory though...

 

Honestly, I think the characters of TJ and Liz were what was less funny and tiresome.  I thought TJ got featured so much because ASP liked the actor.  Otherwise, the characters were best in very small doses. 

[dustylil]

Maybe she was always stoned and with loser types and Jess got fed up of it all and that's what started the problems for him...but it sounded more like Liz was cold-hearted when Luke and Jess described her

 

Yes. Jess probably had an unreasonable expectation of her that she would take more of an interest in him than men and substances.

[Eyes High]

I vaguely remember the characters, even the very judgmental ones, being weirdly laissez-faire and very accepting when it came to Liz's horrible parenting of Jess. Does anyone else have that impression, or am I completely misremembering?

[dustylil]

I vaguely remember the characters, even the very judgmental ones, being weirdly laissez-faire and very accepting when it came to Liz's horrible parenting of Jess

 

I am not sure anyone beside Luke knew all that much about Liz's parenting of Jess and I can't see him talking to anyone about private family matters. Certainly Lorelai was aware that Liz didn't want him back for Christmas the first year he was in Stars Hollow. However,  that was likely the extent of non-family members having any information about that particular domestic situation.

Edited December 9, 2015 by dustylil

[txhorns79]

I am not sure anyone beside Luke knew all that much about Liz's parenting of Jess and I can't see him talking to anyone about private family matters. Certainly Lorelai was aware that Liz didn't want him back for Christmas the first year he was in Stars Hollow. However,  that was likely the extent of non-family members having any information about that particular domestic situation.

 

Given they saw how Jess behaved, and they knew who his mother was, I'm sure they were able to put two and two together regarding her parenting.  They wouldn't really need specific examples.     

Edited December 10, 2015 by txhorns79

[dustylil]

How much would anyone know of Liz though? She hadn't lived in Stars Hollow for at least a decade and a half.  Her three previous marriages and substance abuse issues were unlikely to be known by the more judgemental of the townies. Crazy Carrie and her pals maybe. 

Also, just because Jess was viewed as an arrogant and mean little twerp wouldn't necessarily signify that he had had rotten parenting. Any more than Rory's adultery or Lorelai's teen pregnancy were  reflections of the mothering they received.

[Smad]

This is something that is completely baffling to me when listening/reading about opinions on characters. Not to plug the Gilmore Guys podcast again but sometimes I don't get people. Their hatred of Jess is practically legendary and I get it. Other than Jess' S6 version I don't have much love for the guy either. Yet these guys are all 'oh we love Liz'. Jess is, if anything, a result of how he was raised. We all are to some extend. Yet they blame Jess for everything and gush over Liz. This is a woman who left her family to struggle while her father was deathly ill. It's a woman with a known substance abuse problem, getting involved with men only to be screwed over by them. Often ending up with having her possessions and money stolen by them. What kind of trauma would that do to a young child? Jess had no stability in his life thanks to his failure of a mother. How many times you think Jess went without a roof over his head or even something to eat thanks to Liz? Well probably until Luke could get there and help them.

 

And just because Liz eventually got her act together doesn't negate the fact of what she put Jess through while often times acting as if she hadn't had a child already once she got her second one. That's the main reason I can't stand her. Same with Christopher and Emily. As parents they just disgust me on a very human level.

[txhorns79]

Also, just because Jess was viewed as an arrogant and mean little twerp wouldn't necessarily signify that he had had rotten parenting. Any more than Rory's adultery or Lorelai's teen pregnancy were  reflections of the mothering they received.

 

I think people tend to blame poor parenting when they are confronted with someone who acts like Jess.  To me, if confronted with a kid whose general temperament with most people was being rude and acting entitled, it would almost instantly make me wonder where his parents were in all this.  It's not really comparable to a situation like Lorelai getting pregnant and/or Rory committing adultery, where an otherwise decent person makes a mistake. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by txhorns79

[Kohola3]

I don't know.  I sometimes get sick of the "my parents weren't nice to me" excuse for all kinds of behaviors from rudeness to murder.  After the age of 7 a kid knows right from wrong.  I grew up with kids that had less than wonderful families and went on to become successful people and nurturing parents.

[txhorns79]

I don't know.  I sometimes get sick of the "my parents weren't nice to me" excuse for all kinds of behaviors from rudeness to murder.  After the age of 7 a kid knows right from wrong.  I grew up with kids that had less than wonderful families and went on to become successful people and nurturing parents.

 

I think it depends on the situation.  I mean, even in the case of murder, in the penalty phase, a jury will typically consider things like how a person grew up, in deciding what penalty to apply.   For someone like Jess, it wasn't a matter of his parents not being nice, so much as his father abandoned them and his mother was, at best, a flake.  It doesn't excuse the way he acts, but it gives you an idea of why he acts the way he does.   

[Smad]

I don't know.  I sometimes get sick of the "my parents weren't nice to me" excuse for all kinds of behaviors from rudeness to murder.  After the age of 7 a kid knows right from wrong.  I grew up with kids that had less than wonderful families and went on to become successful people and nurturing parents.

While in general I subscribe to that philosophy (it's the famous excuse for abusers, pedophiles, etc. to blame their childhood) because people have free will, every situation is different. After all there are still plenty of people who were abused that land in abusive relationships when they are adults because for them that's 'normal'.

 

In Jess' case it was clearly a front to keep people at a distance. How many of Liz's guys do you think little Jess got attached to that were gone a week or a month later along with their possessions? Who was there to teach him about relationships in general? What do we know about his life in New York (school, social circle, what part of the town they lived in)? Were any of Liz's boyfriends/husbands abusive to him?

 

The reason why I give Jess more of a pass and hate Liz's guts is because she was an adult, he was still a child. He was her responsibility. If she couldn't handle her own life it might have been better for him to be taken away from her. Harsh I know, but the welfare of the child comes first. And that's really all I was trying to say. Not making excuses for Jess himself. But pointing out that I don't get how people can rag on a child's behavior so much while loving characters like Liz, Emily or Christopher.

[dustylil]

After the age of 7 a kid knows right from wrong

 

With respect, this presupposes that the child is correctly taught right from wrong until that age. In the case of Jess we can't be sure.

That said, I too was pleased to see Jess doing so well by his early twenties - although I'd wait for another decade or so before saying he had overcome the problems of his upbringing.

And related to this, I hold the what I presume to be a highly unpopular opinion - if Luke was so devoted to his family, why was he not a real presence in Jess' life until the boy was seventeen? He was one of the few who knew of the conditions in which he was being raised? Yet until Jess came to live with him, it appeared the two barely knew one another.