Season 6: Speculation

[Haleth]

We know from prophecy that Sansa's safe at least until she slays the Titan. (Aka Littlefinger.)  

What prophesy is this?  I don't recall Sansa being given a prophesy.

[nksarmi]

What prophesy is this?  I don't recall Sansa being given a prophesy.

I think it's something that Dany saw in the House of the Undying that people assign to Sansa.

 

Anyway, given Sansa's show trajectory, I think much of her book Vale plot doesn't matter except to turn her North.  It's not that I think Sansa is going to end the series babysitting Rickon, but I do think she is the Stark most likely to be able to repair the North.  Let's review...Ayra is a cold-hearted killer at this point, Bran is a tree, Rickon is a child (and probably a wild one at that), and Jon is a dead bastard who is about to rise a prophesized hero....

 

But Jon will also - in my opinion - likely be the head of a wildling Army.  How is he going to get the North behind him?  Enter Sansa.  Sansa who has witnessed deal making in KL, Sansa who has had her innocent swept away from her on the show and in the books is learning to politically navigate the Vale, Sansa who still has compassion and at least some grit/will to live.....

 

Sansa should be the ideal character to rally the Northern lords to support Jon and go to war against the Boltons.  And let's face it, unless resurrection comes with a personality transplant, Jon is going to need the help.  And by the way, to play this role, Sophie doesn't have to have filmed a lot. She just needs a few key scenes with a few key characters.

 

While I do not think that Sansa is the YMBQ (I think that's a self-fulfilling prophesy and Cersei made it Marg), but I do think she has a role to play in the North.  And the storytelling angle of making Sansa (the one who couldn't wait to get out of Winterfell and the Stark child who lost her wolf so early) be the one to bring the North together politically - as Jon the bastard commands them - is actually beautiful storytelling. And I think Sansa and Ayra are fantastic opposites.  Sansa being so helpless externally finding her inner strength juxtaposed to Arya who is outwardly strong enough to kill but is probably dying inside.  They have to reunite and if they do, I think they might end up saving each other so to speak.

 

Bottom-line, even though it's not perfectly clear, there is a lot they can still do with Sansa.

Edited September 27, 2015 by nksarmi

[SeanC]

If you decide to scan the blog linked up thread, the blogger seems VERY pessimistic about Sansa's future.   It just struck me.   The bloggers confirms that Sophie Turner didn't/couldn't tell her anything but the blogger definitely didn't get the impression that there were brighter day's ahead for Sansa.

All they did was compare their schedules for the next two months, at which point Ria noted that she wasn't in Belfast in that period. Sophie herself didn't say anything about the show.  Hence, Ria wondered about what the show's filming schedule was like, and was told that they still film in December.

What prophesy is this?  I don't recall Sansa being given a prophesy.

It's the second of the Ghost of High Heart's prophecies, about the maid (the same one in the vision of the Purple Wedding) slaying a savage giant in a castle made of snow.  It's open to debate whether that just referred to Robert Arryn's doll or not, but either way I agree that Sansa will be the downfall of Littlefinger.

Edited September 27, 2015 by SeanC

[Haleth]

Ah, right.  I'd forgotten that one.  Thanks!

[Advance35]

She might die soon but it would seem like bad storytelling.  I will agree that just having her baby-sit Rickon would be a waste of time, but with LF and the Lords of the Vale coming up North that opens up a LOT of possibilities.

 

 

I can agree with a lot of what your saying.   I certainly think a form of Arya's originally conceived dynamic with Tyrion, has been transferred to Sansa.   I guess it just depends on what kind of storyline GRRM invisions Sansa having.   I do think that her longevity as a character is linked to that of Littlefinger.   I don't think the character in book or show is anywhere near ready to be the political agent of whatever faction she's with.    She's a great consort in terms of frills and highborn image and I think she's even proven herself an asset in terms of the darker and more machiavelli (her time with LF in both mediums has displayed this to me) aspects of political life in Westeros but she doesn't have "it" yet.   Whether or not that will change.......

 

But Jon will also - in my opinion - likely be the head of a wildling Army.  How is he going to get the North behind him?  Enter Sansa.  Sansa who has witnessed deal making in KL, Sansa who has had her innocent swept away from her on the show and in the books is learning to politically navigate the Vale, Sansa who still has compassion and at least some grit/will to live.....

 

 

I can't see the North following a Woman.   Not even Ned's "little girl".   I think they would protect her, give her very nice chambers in any castle she stays in, but I don't think they will take marching orders from her.   For Sansa to have a catspaw, I think she would need quite a few scenes to make it believable and there are very few options as I don't think the Northern Lords would follow Rickon at present either.   I COULD see them following Jon though.  

 

Bottom-line, even though it's not perfectly clear, there is a lot they can still do with Sansa.

 

 

This I agree to an extent, but will they?   It depends on how important the character is to GRRM.   I don't doubt Sansa has storyline potential but whether that's something GRRM will pursue.   If the show (by the end of this season) already has her take out LF and then proceeds to have her sitting with Rickon and telling him about the good old days of Winterfell and House Stark, I don't think she's long for the world.   She's not going to be a nanny for 2 seasons.

 

I think he's certainly provided her with a lot of action (of a sort) in the story.  But considering how the show leap frogged over quite a bit of it (understandably IMO) I can't help but wonder if they want to expedite Sansa to her fate and focus on the remaining characters that will carry the rest of the story.

[nksarmi]

Advance35 - I'm not saying the North will follow Sansa, I'm saying she will bring them together. Once they are together, I believe they will follow Jon.  But Jon is going to need some help unifying them - and they aren't going to get behind him just because Mel says he's the prince that was promised and the Red God supports him.

 

The things is that it wasn't just the Night's Watch that hated the wildlings - other northerners did as well.  And I don't believe for a minute that Jon will abandon the wildlings - in fact, they will probably be his biggest supporters.  So how does Jon convince the northerners to join with a wildling army when he couldn't convince the NW - who had actually SEEN White Walkers - that they needed to become allies? 

 

I don't think Jon can do that - he just doesn't have the skills. And on top of that, while in the books there is a lot more to the "North remembers" - I'd still bet money someone will need to smooth things over after Robb let things go so horribly wrong (especially with the Kastarks).  Jon is not going to be that someone.  But Sansa - both in the books and show - might just have the right skills to get the Northern lords to overlook past insults and unite behind Ned's / Lyanna's bastard (depending on what is known at the time). 

 

So I really think she has a key role to play there.

 

But I'm so hung up on Aegon that I thought the show was going to make Trystane equal Aegon so it's not like I'm come close to getting everything right. :)  Still, despite my track record of being wrong, I just have a feeling that Sansa is going to matter and frankly, she's one of the few that I can see living through all of this.

Oh and let me just say that if Sansa's fate is tied to Littlefinger's - I think she's fine for a season or two.  I could be wrong here - and I have been before - but I get the feeling the show will milk every moment they can from both Cersei and Littlefinger no matter when they die in the book series.

[Wouter]

I can agree with a lot of what your saying.   I certainly think a form of Arya's originally conceived dynamic with Tyrion, has been transferred to Sansa.   I guess it just depends on what kind of storyline GRRM invisions Sansa having.   I do think that her longevity as a character is linked to that of Littlefinger.   I don't think the character in book or show is anywhere near ready to be the political agent of whatever faction she's with.    She's a great consort in terms of frills and highborn image and I think she's even proven herself an asset in terms of the darker and more machiavelli (her time with LF in both mediums has displayed this to me) aspects of political life in Westeros but she doesn't have "it" yet.   Whether or not that will change.......

 

I agree that it looks like some of Arya's original role has been taken by Sansa. In ADWD, Tyrion shows some signs of being bitter about losing her, in spite of how the marriage went.

 

Since I consider it likely that Tyrion will take one of Dany's dragons and that he may be believed to be a bastard son of Aerys Targaryen (because of riding a dragon on the one hand, and the rumours about Aerys and Joanna on the other hand), Tyrion may even be in line for the throne. If anything happens to Dany and/or Jon, he could end up taking it. That would be one possible end game for Sansa; if Tyrion would be king he needs a queen to continue the Targaryen line and avoid another  succession war. 

 

And regardless of GRRM's plans for marriage (Sansa could also end up lady of the Riverlands, the Vale or even of the Westerlands), it's obvious that her story is tied to Littlefinger and that GRRM is slowly building her up to a point where she will make one or more political/diplomatic moves important to the Starks and the north. Just like Arya and Bran, she is "in training", and thus likely to be safe at least until this training starts to bear fruit.

 

Quite alot of people are convinced Sansa will go north in the books, because she already is there in the show. But since the passes to the Vale are blocked by snow in the books (and the Vale armies aren't noted - in the books, unlike in the show - as being trained to fight in snows) and since Stannis and Bolton are fighting for control over it, I don't see any hurry for her to go north anytime soon. It might be just as likely that the show has her return south (possibly with a mission she gets from Jon or from some northern lords) as her going north in TWOW. 

[Advance35]

It might be just as likely that the show has her return south (possibly with a mission she gets from Jon or from some northern lords) as her going north in TWOW.

 

Now this I could see.   Sansa is the only Stark to have interacted with the Southron Houses.   A regretable but notable connection to House Lannister, extensive interaction with House Tyrell, The Vale, heck, she's the only Stark on page to have ever interacted with a Martell, however briefly.   I could see her going for potential diplomatic reasons, if she lives long enough that House Lannister falls and is know longer wanted for reigicide.   Or I could see her heading South again, fleeing from the Others.    If a character remains in the North and is not one of the Top 5, I'm not optimistic about their survival.

 

I don't think Jon can do that - he just doesn't have the skills. And on top of that, while in the books there is a lot more to the "North remembers" - I'd still bet money someone will need to smooth things over after Robb let things go so horribly wrong (especially with the Kastarks).  Jon is not going to be that someone.  But Sansa - both in the books and show - might just have the right skills to get the Northern lords to overlook past insults and unite behind Ned's / Lyanna's bastard (depending on what is known at the time).

 

Aren't the Karstarks divided in the books?   I thought there was a faction of that group still loyal to House Stark.  Didn't one of the Karstark girls come running to the Wall in search of help from Jon Snow because he was the closest thing to a Stark left?

 

 

Oh and let me just say that if Sansa's fate is tied to Littlefinger's - I think she's fine for a season or two.  I could be wrong here - and I have been before - but I get the feeling the show will milk every moment they can from both Cersei and Littlefinger no matter when they die in the book series.

 

I think he's her best bet.   I know some people want her to let him have it if they ever meet again but I don't think Sansa would because I think she recognizes his ability to survive and wants to ride his coat-tails in that respect.   So despite all that happened to her in Season 5, if he came galloping over the horizon with Vale forces I don't doubt Sansa (for survival reasons) would ally herself with him again.  Though I think she'd abandon him just as easily if she saw he was about to fall.

 

Not sure I agree with you about Cersei, I could see her tale coming to a close, during the course of The Winds of Winter.

[benteen]

How does Jon convince the North he isn't an oath-breaker?  It was known that Jon became the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Perhaps Thorne sends out the usual messages that there's a new Lord Commander (probably him) but the people who do know (other Northern Lords) are going to realize that Jon Snow is here and not on the Wall where he swore an oath.

[Avaleigh]

How does Jon convince the North he isn't an oath-breaker?  It was known that Jon became the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Perhaps Thorne sends out the usual messages that there's a new Lord Commander (probably him) but the people who do know (other Northern Lords) are going to realize that Jon Snow is here and not on the Wall where he swore an oath.

I'm hoping that public knowledge of the assassination is what's going to end up giving Jon a pass. The men at the Watch killed their commander and relieved him of his duty. IMO he doesn't owe the NW anything more. 

 

Those guys all broke their vows when they killed him so I think it would be rich of them to expect Jon to keep his vows after being resurrected. 

[benteen]

I completely agree.  Those guys broke their oath on the show and deserve anything they get.  But I'm sure they'll alter the details of Jon's assassination publicly.

[Avaleigh]

I completely agree.  Those guys broke their oath on the show and deserve anything they get.  But I'm sure they'll alter the details of Jon's assassination publicly.

Heh, so basically Jon 'fell into their knives' or something? 

[benteen]

Heh, so basically Jon 'fell into their knives' or something? 

 

Heheh.  The knife just slipped out of my hand...four times.  True story!

[Chris24601]

Put me down for a Jon/Sansa teamup to take back the North with the acknowledgement that neither could do it alone. Jon is either a bastard or a Targaryan (or both) and probably leading an army of Wildlings, which is not a good combo for winning the hearts and minds of the Northern Lords but he's got the military expertise to win. Sansa is a woman without any military experience so she can't lead an army, but even more so than in the books (where "Arya" was Ramsey's bride) Sansa is the last legitimate child of Ned Stark known to be alive (Bran and Rickon are believed burned to death and Arya is presumed dead having not been officially seen since Ned's execution) and so can serve as the rallying point for the North with Jon as her military champion. Even better if they produce an alive and well Rickon, since then they can make the battle against the Boltons about fully restoring the proper order of a trueblooded Stark lord on the throne of Winterfell rather than the partial restoration that putting Sansa and/or Jon on the throne would.

 

We're coming up on the third act of this overarching story. The heroes have reached their nadirs... Jon is dead, Sansa and Theon lept to their deaths, Arya is blinded, Jaime's daughter is dying of poison in his arms, Tyrion is an outsider left to run a city by pure cunning and force of will and Dany is alone with an injured dragon and surrounded by Dothraki. Its TIME to for things to start turning around and for characters who've been scattered to the winds to start reuniting for the final confrontations.

 

Knowing that Jon is resurrected and soon to be wearing Stark colors and going up against the Boltons is what makes me think Sansa and Jon's stories may be about to merge. the Boltons and Winterfell were Sansa's arc last season, it makes no story sense for her to go off and do something else while someone else picks up that narrative.

 

It also makes story sense based on what Sansa knows at the end of last season. The Lannisters want her dead and their allies control the Riverlands, Littlefinger left her with the Boltons and Ramsey wants her back under his control (minus some limbs if necessary to keep her there). Short of Brienne taking her south by force, the only possible hope for protection she has is being sheltered by her half-brother the Lord Commander of the Night Watch (of course by the time she gets there Jon will be her cousin leading an army of Wildlings... but the principle is the same).

 

All we really need at that point is a plausible reason for Jon to want to retake Winterfell, be it a prophecy related to defeating the Walkers or just because of the need to unite the North to fight the Walkers and you could have eight to nine regulars/semi-regulars all joined up in the same plotline (Jon, Tormund, Davos, Mel, Bran (via Tree), Sansa, the Boltons and probably Littlefinger) with potentially three to four others possible for at least part of season (Brienne, Pod and Theon) before going off on their new quests (which could still be related to the main plot of rallying the armies of Men to do battle with the Walkers just as Sam's plot in Old Town will no doubt link back by via some critical information about the Walkers).

 

At least that's my current theory...

[Wouter]

I'm hoping that public knowledge of the assassination is what's going to end up giving Jon a pass. The men at the Watch killed their commander and relieved him of his duty. IMO he doesn't owe the NW anything more. 

 

Those guys all broke their vows when they killed him so I think it would be rich of them to expect Jon to keep his vows after being resurrected. 

Qhorin Halfhand teached Jon that personal honor is unimportant, compared to the duty of defending "the realms of men". As a northern warlord or even as king, Jon Snow could do much more about the Others than he could do as a Lord Commander of a ignored and extremely understrength Night's Watch. 

 

As it happens, the assassination allows him to walk away from the Watch without suffering a loss of personal honour so he kinds of get to have his cake and eat it, too. Which is probably why Martin had the mutineers succeed.

[Happy Harpy]

I think that Jon has the skills to lead. Stannis was probably the character who was harder to please, and it seemed to me that Jon earned his respect as a commander. Mance respected him, too, IIRC, and he won the respect of the Wildlings. He actually did what was best for the general interest, and was good at making it happen.

Jon didn't manage to convince a bunch of cowardly, narrow-minded and archi-conservative (Thorne) bunch of the not-so...or rather, oh-so-not-elite of Westeros. I think that if the Northern lords are depicted as more honorable and smarter than the mutineers -not even the whole NW- they'd follow him in a heartbeat.

For me, Jon and Tyrion are the characters more fit to actually govern at least from what I've seen onscreen. I can easily imagine them choosing a good tax policy (just an example at random).

 

OTOH, what has Sansa seen in KL and with Littlefinger? Schemes and plots, as per someone's famous words. Aside from Tyrion, and I don't remember that they ever exchanged about it, she didn't have anyone around her who cared about the people or the kind of politics that implies "policies". I don't think she has any experience at ruling, unlike Jon or Dany...and the latter especially showed that even treasures of good will and good intentions don't replace said experience. Being good at scheming and being good at ruling are two different things. That's why I don't see Sansa as more qualified to govern Winterfell, let alone the North, than Jon (or even Bran who actually began to learn with Master Luwin) and I wouldn't find it believable.

 

Moreover, it's possible that the story goes in a direction where what Sansa learned in KL becomes useless...I mean "the vain power plays" becoming useless and left behind as the real threat of the White Walkers became real. If so, she might be a doomed character...I always saw her as the feminine version of Robb, "the one who fit" society and life as they knew it before doom, so her character-arc could very well be a Trauma Conga Line where everytime you think things can get better for her, they get worse, and ending with her death, in the ultimate deconstruction of the concept of beautiful fairy tale princess.

 

I don't think it will be the case, though. First of all, because I believe that the Starks are done dying. Bran weird tree-merging, which for me would be akin to death, and a possible confirmation of Benjen's demise are the only ones I can see. It's the Lannisters' turn imo, Tywin and Myrcella got the ball rollin'.

Second, I agree that the original Arya/Tyrion dynamic has been transferred to Sansa, and imo the show has stressed the importance of their relationship. Tyrion's words about Sansa surviving them all were so anvilicious that I can't imagine them not meeting again when/if the human forces unite against the White Walkers. I'm not talking about a romantic relationship here, although don't rule them out ending up as a power couple (wasn't there one in the War of the Roses?) and playing key roles as a team in the future Westerosi institutions.

Third, because there will always be plotters and schemers, so Sansa's skills and experience in that field will always be useful imo. Personally, the most fitting place for her in the end would be representant of the North at the Small Council or whatever "federal" organisation will be in place after the White Walkers are defeated; for she's indeed the Stark who knows best about the other Houses and the shenanigans of such places. I also could see her being groomed by Varys as his future replacement.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[benteen]

GRRM's A World of Ice and Fire book does state there was once a woman who served as Master of Whisperers so there would be prescidence for that.

 

I've said this many times but I've thought a roaming King's Justice would be the perfect position for Arya.

[Winnief]

Huh.  I always envisioned Arya as Master of Whisper's, (and thought her joining a mummer's troupe was to echo Varys's experience,) but roaming King's Justice works too.

 

And yeah, in another lifetime, Sansa/Tyrion would have made one helluva power couple.  I think her role though in the near future, (besides slaying the Titan,) is to be the one to supply Jon with some much needed intel and insight into some of the great Southern houses and would be kings, since he's gonna need it soon enough. 

[CofCinci]

Huh. I always envisioned Arya as Master of Whisper's, (and thought her joining a mummer's troupe was to echo Varys's experience,) but roaming King's Justice works too.

And yeah, in another lifetime, Sansa/Tyrion would have made one helluva power couple. I think her role though in the near future, (besides slaying the Titan,) is to be the one to supply Jon with some much needed intel and insight into some of the great Southern houses and would be kings, since he's gonna need it soon enough.

In another lifetime? You don't have to wait that long. I believe the series ends with Tyrion on the Throne and Sansa as his loving wife. Fast forward to Sansa as an old lady, telling ASOIAF to a group of children.

[nksarmi]

In another lifetime? You don't have to wait that long. I believe the series ends with Tyrion on the Throne and Sansa as his loving wife. Fast forward to Sansa as an old lady, telling ASOIAF to a group of children.

 

I don't know about Tyrion on the throne, but I would place Sansa ending up with Tyrion or Jon at about even odds at this point.  I LOVE the idea of Sansa and Tyrion - especially on the show.  But as much as the cousin thing kind of squicks me out, I see why some people think it will be Jon and Sansa. 

 

I really think GRRM is transforming Sansa from viewing men in this fairytale light to being able to see the inner good.  And I especially like the idea of her first crush being a "prince" or "king" who was a monster inside (Joffrey) to her falling for a man who is a monster on the outside but princely on the inside (Tyrion). I think that might be why GRRM is putting Tyrion through the ringer a little in the books, the clean off the less desirable traits that he picked up in House Lannister - so he can be truly good with a noble lady like Sansa. 

 

On the other hand, GRRM appears to be transforming Jon (the bastard) into the exact kind of hero/knight Sansa once dreamed about. So I could see him bringing things full circle on Sansa in that just when she thinks there are "no more heroes" - she comes face to face with one in her bastard cousin.  Again, learning that heroism is about what is inside - not the name you are born with.

[ElizaD]

Tyrion agreed to rape a child hostage as part of a plot to keep her from escaping her abusers. He only ever saw Sansa as a pretty, highborn doll who could give him the adoration and fancy castle he felt he was entitled to, not as a person who'd undergone a great deal of suffering and wouldn't respond to routine compliments by opening her heart and her legs to him. When she didn't want to have sex, he felt bitter about it and contemplated changing his mind and going through with marital rape after all, and in ADWD he dealt with his depression by raping a slave. There is absolutely no way for Tyrion to atone for his participation in the plan to trap Sansa in a life of Lannister captivity and abuse (by Tyrion, or by Joffrey - he had no reaction to Joffrey's boast that he'd rape Sansa) except by agreeing that the marriage was nonconsummated and invalid if they ever meet again. As bleak as ASOIAF already is, it would become horrifying if it ended with Tyrion being rewarded for agreeing to rape an abused child because he found her hot by getting that same child when she's 2+ years older and Sansa having to learn that if a grown man she found physically repulsive was attracted to her when she was 12, she has to learn to love him and respect the wedding vows she was forced to make under threat of further physical violence after her husband had neglected to mention to her that she was going to be married to him until it was too late to plan another escape. I may not like some theories like Tyrion Targaryen, but that's mild compared to my absolute disgust at the idea of Tyrion/Sansa, which validates the sadly common argument that not raping a tween/teen is such a noble act that she has to get over her own total lack of physical/emotional interest and submit to married life with a man who raped or killed other women when he was feeling more stressed than he was during their marriage.

 

If Tyrion is ever to have an actual relationship that's free of the danger that he'll snap again, it has to start after he recognizes what he did wrong in his approach to relationships, not just how the world wronged him by making him a dwarf who's unattractive to women, and it can't happen with a woman he was prepared to rape when she was a child. If ASOIAF is short for Learn To Love The Rapist (Because He Did It To Some Other Woman), GOT's Ramsay/Sansa marriage may turn out to be the better fate for her because at least the show had her escape and a few weeks of misery in chains (and the right to say "Jon, make me a widow and give me freedom") is better than a lifetime of obligation for being abused less than her beauty and family castle had originally spurred her husband to do. Sansa's need to see beauty on the inside (which she's already done by dreaming of Sandor and admitting that Tyrion wasn't as bad as he could have been, a generosity he doesn't show in his thoughts of her) is nowhere near as great as Tyrion's need to stop seeing women as objects to be idolized (Sansa as the highborn maiden whose virginity he attempts to respect as he does not respect the slave woman's right to her body) or punished, judged and used (Tysha, Shae, Sansa when he thinks of how little her marriage vows mattered to her - the vows she was forced to make as a captive child). Whether by blood or by education, he's Tywin's son and capable of being a monster on the inside too when things don't go his way, especially with women: they even share the same tendency for madonna/whore extremes, with Tywin's love of Joanna/Tyrion's dream of a loving Sansa contrasted with the shaming of his late father's mistress and the rapes of Tysha and Elia/the killing of Shae and the rape of the slave.

Edited September 30, 2015 by ElizaD

[nksarmi]

Eliza - hmmm my show memory of Tyrion must override my book version of him because I totally don't see his dynamic with Sansa the way you described.  First, I think it terms of the story, we have to ignore the age GRRM says these characters are.  It just doesn't work by any stretch of the imagination.  Dany's story for example is completely implausible if she's 13 when she learns how to please Drago in bed so much that she "tames" the beast so to speak.  

 

So, I think aging up Sansa and accepting that she has a woman's body works better.  Sure we have to hand wave away her late period, but it's just far easier to imagine her looking more like Sophie in the show given how many different men drool over her.  Anyway, I admit that still makes Sansa a teen and Tyrion a man, but I don't think he's supposed to be THAT old, is he?  Early to mid 20s? While that is iffy today, let's not forget that it wasn't that long ago when Jerry Lee Lewis (in his 20s) married his 13 year old cousin.  Yes, it was a scandal, but only because she wasn't a couple of years older. *** Let me say that I will consider killing any 20+ year old man that came anywhere near my 13 or 15 or even 17 year old daughter, but the world has changed.  My grandmother's generation seem to think marrying 10+ years your senior was a norm.

 

Anyway, I don't think it makes Tyrion a villain that he obeyed his father in marrying Sansa or that he a) desired her and b) wished that she desired him.  He's been emotionally and psychologically abused his whole life by his father and despite his amazing wit, clearly believes no woman will ever desire him without getting paid.  I don't think less of him because of his frustration with Sansa and what I believe was a genuine wish that she would open up to him.  I mean the prospect of being married to someone who hates you and refuses to be anything but a brick wall must be pretty depressing even if he understands why she doesn't trust him.  I think the fact that he didn't force her into bed like his father ORDERED him to do speaks volumes to the side of him that is good and decent.

 

In regards to Tysha - I will not and cannot see how anyone could hold that against Tyrion.  He was a boy being forced to do something by a father he feared.  That was Tywin's sin and I consider it abuse of both Tysha and Tyrion.

 

When it comes to Shae - I know the show tried to "whiten" that up a bit, but even in the books, what she did to him was awful.  Let's not pretend that she was just some whore who was servicing his father in place of him.  She offered testimony that condemned him to death.  She was his enemy every bit as much as Tywin was.  Sure you could say that she was just trying to survive, but as far as I can recall, we never learned how she ended up in Tywin's employ/bed instead of on a boat out of King's Landing like Tyrion tried to arrange to protect her.  So we don't know if she offered that testimony against Tyrion for money or to avoid being killed.  And considering he was escaping prison in that moment, leaving her alive to yell wasn't likely to aide his escape.  Tyrion may not be a white hat because of his treatment of Shae and his father, but he's isn't exactly an abuser of all women because of it.

 

Regarding the slave girl - I simply don't remember a rape scene there (I zoned out a lot during ADWD because his self-loathing was ruining the character for me).  So I will have to look that up at some point and refresh my memory.

 

But yea, needless to say, I think Tyrion was genuinely good to Sansa and he's far less despicable that the man she is currently aligned with (Littlefinger).  And again, I might be thinking more of Peter and Sophie than the book versions, but I honestly don't have issue if they reunite and end up loving each other.

Edited September 30, 2015 by nksarmi

[Wouter]

I agree that book-Tyrion didn't treat Sansa well by agreeing to the marriage with a young and powerless hostage, and he has proven capable of pretty bad acts (besides some of his ADWD actions, there is also his wish for a vendetta against the Vale). I also agree that 12 (almost 13) year old Sansa acted remarkably composed, considering what she was going through, and she was actually more mature than Tyrion in that instance. Her cold attitude to him afterwards was actually deserved and quite rational, considering she was planning to escape mere weeks later. 

 

But, a lot can still happen between the end of ADWD and the final pages of the books. GRRM has managed to make even Jaime into a semi-sympathetic character in the eyes of quite alot of readers (even though he still does some questionable things even now), who knows what his plans for Tyrion are. I do suspect that he has passed his nadir and the way will be up for him, now. For all we know, he may play an important role in saving Westeros, even with the presence of Dany, Jon and Bran in the story.

 

In the show, D&D seems to have made sure that Sansa and Tyrion have a far more friendly relation than in the books. There were a lot of complaints on Westeros about Sansa kneeling to him during the ceremony, but many forgot that show-Tyrion had the decency to warn her far in advance - unlike his book counterpart. Now, Tyrion is not the only character to get "whitewashed" to some degree (obviously he also didn't pull the bad stuff that book-Tyrion did during his trek through Essos), but if Sansa/Tyrion will come back into play (as a political match; I'm not expecting a romantic coupling), then they did their best to make this more acceptable to viewers than it would be to readers. It would also help that marrying Ramsay makes almost every other potential husband look good by contrast!

 

One potential political reason why the Targaryen loyalists could want such a match is that it would motivate the north to not seceed from the rest of Westeros, in the long run; if the future king or queen has the blood of Ned Stark they are unlikely to rebel against him/her. 

 

This is only valid if Tyrion is believed to have Targaryen blood. If that theory does not get validated, then there is far less reason for the marriage to continue/be rekindled. But I also think that liking or disliking a theory has no bearing on it turning out to be true or not; IMO there is good reason to suspect it may be true, if nothing else because book-Dany heavily associates dragon riding with Targaryen/Valyrian blood (likely correctly so). If Tyrion rides a dragon, questions will be asked. Only the "blood of the dragon" is supposed to be able to do so. 

 

So I'm looking forward to what Tyrion may or may not end up doing with Viserion (or Rhaegal) in S6. He is near them, their "mother" is gone for the time being, and controlling a dragon may soon be very handy. I suspect the coming season may answer the question of whether or not he will be a dragonrider. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Wouter

[ElizaD]

Anyway, I don't think it makes Tyrion a villain that he obeyed his father in marrying Sansa or that he a) desired her and b) wished that she desired him.  He's been emotionally and psychologically abused his whole life by his father and despite his amazing wit, clearly believes no woman will ever desire him without getting paid.  I don't think less of him because of his frustration with Sansa and what I believe was a genuine wish that she would open up to him.  I mean the prospect of being married to someone who hates you and refuses to be anything but a brick wall must be pretty depressing even if he understands why she doesn't trust him.  I think the fact that he didn't force her into bed like his father ORDERED him to do speaks volumes to the side of him that is good and decent.

 

I think the rape of the slave shows that Tyrion not raping Sansa isn't a sign that he's decent but that she was lucky with the timing of the marriage. The thing that stopped Tyrion was that he still had the energy to hope that Sansa would pretend this marriage wasn't a violation, and when that didn't start happening he grew ever more frustrated with her without once reflecting on what the situation must be like for her: a couple more months of coldness, and he might well have given up since he didn't fail to obey Tywin's wish due to moral reasons, but because he didn't want to admit to himself that it would be rape and that he hadn't gotten his loving dream girl after all. Tyrion had a choice and agreed to the plan to marry and rape Sansa as a means to forever prevent her escape from her abusers because he wanted her. Throughout the whole marriage, his self-pity and view of himself as a suffering victim disguises how essentially selfish and lacking in empathy he is. I don't recall him feeling one shred of remorse over agreeing to the plan or for molesting Sansa: she feels more shame over her conduct towards the man who intended to rape her! Tyrion is incapable of placing himself in the shoes of a child who may be fearing rape and takes it solely as a personal insult that she shrinks away from him. Jaime doesn't achieve a perfect understanding of his own flaws and mistakes but he's actually making some progress by considering what he could or should have done differently (this includes his shame over doing nothing when Aerys raped his queen, which haunts him more than Tyrion is haunted by what he himself did to Sansa or the slave). Tyrion, on the other hand, has only shown himself to be capable of blaming his dwarfism, which absolves him of personal responsibility and makes every bad reaction the fault of prejudice rather than his treatment of others. In the marriage, he thinks only of what he is being denied, never of what is being done to Sansa and what she has been denied. If he's sad he's not getting love and sex from an abused child hostage who he knew perfectly well was going to be tricked and forced into this marriage to prevent her escape, it's time for the world's smallest violin.

 

Sansa's beauty is the only thing about her that Tyrion sees. Reading their POVs, neither has any interest in the other before or after the marriage. Sansa doesn't care about what happens to Tyrion. Tyrion only thinks about her to feel bitter about another failure. There is nothing they actually like or positively recall about each other, absolutely zero spark of anything save general pity which Sansa felt (but then, she also pitied Lancel thanks to her empathetic character) and general lust which Tyrion ceased to be influenced by when Sansa was no longer around. It's a relationship that exists only because of the forced marriage and Tyrion's weakness in agreeing to this chance to have the bride he felt entitled to. Sansa was essentially a generic highborn Barbie to him and ended up disappointing him by being a real girl who'd suffered terribly, which he utterly failed to recognize or respect in focusing only on how her dutiful responses infuriated him and blaming her Stark coldness for her rejection and humiliation of him (again without a thought for the far greater fears, abuses and humiliations she had to live with because she was a Stark hostage). When Tyrion thinks that Sansa's grief has made her even more beautiful, that little detail really says everything about his indifference to her actual emotional experience and his total focus on whether he is or is not getting the pretty doll to make loving responses to his generic compliments and comments. And it makes his later comment that she'd cry no more than she had to if he did insist on his marital rights even more disturbing.

 

In the show, D&D seems to have made sure that Sansa and Tyrion have a far more friendly relation than in the books. There were a lot of complaints on Westeros about Sansa kneeling to him during the ceremony, but many forgot that show-Tyrion had the decency to warn her far in advance - unlike his book counterpart. Now, Tyrion is not the only character to get "whitewashed" to some degree (obviously he also didn't pull the bad stuff that book-Tyrion did during his trek through Essos), but if Sansa/Tyrion will come back into play (as a political match; I'm not expecting a romantic coupling), then they did their best to make this more acceptable to viewers than it would be to readers. It would also help that marrying Ramsay makes almost every other potential husband look good by contrast!

 

On the show everyone has to recognize Tyrion's goodness. Even Tywin had to say he admired Tyrion before being killed by him! The Ramsay marriage doesn't make Tyrion/Sansa look good, it reveals why it's awful by having Sansa violently raped to show her how lucky she was before and neutering Tyrion's guilt by comparing him to an even bigger monster, as though the existence of Ramsays and Gregors in the world made Tyrions and Roberts good husbands and their wives ungrateful idiots for not loving them because their marital abuse could have been worse. Tyrion/Sansa is about a man getting exactly what he wanted when he agreed to force a child into marriage because he forced her into marriage and created a situation where she has to jump through hoops if she's to have a chance of getting him out of her life, and a girl being abused until she learns her own rights and desires are so unimportant that she must submit to a forced marriage because she was "lucky" enough to get a husband who relies on the expectation of compliance (the wife/slave who can't say no) rather than violence when he wants sex from a girl or woman who doesn't want him. Tyrion/Sansa is all about rewarding him by making his dreams come true and punishing her for daring to have the same dreams but not already realizing in her tweens that she must submit to making the most of a forced marriage while he gets to say no to unsatisfying women until he has a chance to seize his ideal bride.

[nksarmi]

My view of Tyrion MUST be entirely shaped by the show where I think Peter D played him with a TON of empathy toward Sansa, which is why I believe Sansa later calls him kind.  The only moment in the books where I started disliking Tyrion was in book five where his self-pity and drunken misery was on the verge of forever ruining the character for me and we were mostly (thank goodness) spared that in season five (one of the few changes I really liked).

 

So, all I can say is at least on the SHOW - I would be ok if Sansa and Tyrion ended up together.  I'm also very OK if it doesn't happen.

[Advance35]

My view of Tyrion MUST be entirely shaped by the show where I think Peter D played him with a TON of empathy toward Sansa, which is why I believe Sansa later calls him kind.

 

I actually really liked the interaction between the Tyrion and Sansa characters, both in the books and the show.   And I could see her ending up with Tyrion for political reasons.   In the books what sold Tyrion's humanity in regards to Sansa (for me) was when he refused to Joffrey's murder entirely on her the way Kevan or Jaimie wanted him too.   And even though at the time he was convinced that she DID murder Joffrey, though with help and he still refused to throw her under the bus because "wherever she is and whatever her part in this, she's my wife."   Maybe because it was such a dark book it took very little to move me but that line did it.

 

And like you, in the show, my abundant fondness for Tyrion is probably strictly down to PD's portrayal.   I think he makes the character so wonderfully human.   I had seen a lot of people thought Tyrion/Sansa forshadowing could be found skittered throughout the show and the deleted scene where he tells the Hound to "go piss on a tree somewhere" when he catches Sandor hassling Sansa in one of the corridors.

 

IF Sansa (lives) ends up with anyone we've already met, I think it will be with Tyrion.   I don't think Sandor is going to have much of a presence in the rest of her narrative.  I feel like the show underplayed the Sandor/Sansa interaction for a reason.

[Chris24601]

For my money, I'd much prefer Jon/Sansa to either Jon/Dany or Tyrion/Sansa (actually I think Dany and Tyrion would make a much better match), particularly when you consider the paralleling of their various dreams in the books... the whole cousin thing conflicts it just enough for American audiences to keep it from being a fairytale ending (many other cultures have no issues at all with cousins marrying).

 

A huge part of it for me is that ever since the burning of Shireen (poor poor Shireen), I have not been able to stop associating that horror with the moment that Dany decided to throw a man whose innocence or guilt she was unsure of to her dragons... burned alive and eaten... without even the slightest concern as to whether he was innocent or guilty, but only because of the power it gave her over the rest. So now when she speaks to Tyrion of breaking the wheel I don't see a courageous young woman with some sort of bizarre notion of democracy in her head... I hear strains of "BURN THEM ALL" and that legendary Targaryan madness bubbling beneath the cool exterior of the only player in the game with not just one, but three weapons of mass destruction in her grasp.

 

I can't help but wonder if Dany hasn't been set up to be another false messiah (this time for the readers/viewers vs. the clearly textually false messiah that was Stannis)... the strong-willed queen with her kickass FX-budget blowing dragons who will swoop in and solve all the problems when, as Tyrion points out, she doesn't even know what the actual problems even are because she's never even set foot in Westeros before (she wasn't born until after her mother had reached Essos).

 

This is the one and only situation where I'm going to say it, but frankly, Dany's potential false messiahood is one of those things that would make me actually prefer the notion that Jon really IS just Ned's bastard son by commonborn Willa... because its pretty clear he's the REAL DEAL and the idea that he's the hero not because of being a secret prince or having magic dragon blood or what have you, but because he's the guy who's there and doesn't give a crap about political games or prophecies and just wants to protect as many people as he can... and that's why people would follow him and make him king (every king has an ancestor who wasn't until they forged the kingdom for themselves) is far more powerful to me than prophecies of a promised prince whose been raised in hiding and embracing his destiny.

 

I suppose it could still work if Jon really is Rheagar and Lyanna's son, but that doesn't end up mattering a hill of beans to why he's the one to lead the fight against the Others and why he ends up as king... but not as well as the alternative to my mind.

[BlackberryJam]

Actually, the more I have seen about Margaery's story line really makes me convinced that Sansa is in no way set up as a nemesis for Cersei. So, what does that leave for Sansa? Show only thoughts here, but if KL is under the control of the Tyrells/Sparrows when Dany finally arrives and Cersei is stripped of her power, what does that leave for Sansa as a political story?

Uniting the North, right? But uniting the North against what? The Boltons? The Others? The incoming Targaryens? Against the Boltons would be short term story only, because it's really the threat from the North or the threat from the South that's the big deal. If R+L=J, then uniting against the Targs becomes unimportant. I also think it's going to be Jon who unites the North against the others.

Okay...so what does that leave as overall endgame story for Sansa? I think it's set up so she could be a tragic death right now because her function in the overall story is small.

[SeanC]

Uniting the North, right? But uniting the North against what? The Boltons? The Others? The incoming Targaryens? Against the Boltons would be short term story only, because it's really the threat from the North or the threat from the South that's the big deal. If R+L=J, then uniting against the Targs becomes unimportant. I also think it's going to be Jon who unites the North against the others.

Okay...so what does that leave as overall endgame story for Sansa? I think it's set up so she could be a tragic death right now because her function in the overall story is small.

I'm sure there's plenty to do in terms of running the Stark family cause that it can accommodate multiple characters (the writers clearly think so, since they've been trying to consolidate storylines).

Edited October 1, 2015 by SeanC

[Crossbow]

About Tyrion and Sansa: Yes, he saw her as nothing but a pretty highborn girl but he only ever tried to protect her in his own way. He had the whole kingdom crashing around him and she was far from his biggest problem. He was just like, "Oh, leave the poor girl alone. Okay, FINE, I'll marry her if I really have to." He was forced to marry her and give up the woman he loved, and I think he was a lot kinder to her than most people would be in that situation. I know if I were forced to marry someone I would resent them no matter how innocent they were.

Okay...so what does that leave as overall endgame story for Sansa? I think it's set up so she could be a tragic death right now because her function in the overall story is small.

 

I've been expecting that she will end up being the wardeness of the North. Hopefully she will acquire some leadership ability from somewhere.

 

I think GRRM is done killing Starks for now. He killed three and turned one into a tree. I think he's going to prune the Lannister tree some more next.

[nksarmi]

Actually, the more I have seen about Margaery's story line really makes me convinced that Sansa is in no way set up as a nemesis for Cersei. So, what does that leave for Sansa? Show only thoughts here, but if KL is under the control of the Tyrells/Sparrows when Dany finally arrives and Cersei is stripped of her power, what does that leave for Sansa as a political story?

Uniting the North, right? But uniting the North against what? The Boltons? The Others? The incoming Targaryens? Against the Boltons would be short term story only, because it's really the threat from the North or the threat from the South that's the big deal. If R+L=J, then uniting against the Targs becomes unimportant. I also think it's going to be Jon who unites the North against the others.

Okay...so what does that leave as overall endgame story for Sansa? I think it's set up so she could be a tragic death right now because her function in the overall story is small.

I think Sansa might play a key role in helping Jon unite the North, BUT I think Marg is Cersei's nemesis.

 

ETA: Regarding Dany and madness, I wonder if the show is giving us hints there or if they are just unaware of how they are making her character look.  I mean it was an interesting choice to have Dany practically force herself on Hizdohr in political marriage where I felt it was presented much differently in the books.  Plus they didn't really show exactly how out of control of the situation Dany seemed to be in Meereen so she seems more "mad" than desperate. 

 

I suspect the show was trying to make Dany seem more like Jon's equal because in the books, while Jon is betrayed, he seems like a capable leader.  Dany does not.  Somehow their choices with Dany though didn't quite work in season five if they weren't going for "this girl might be as nutzo as her dad."

Edited October 1, 2015 by nksarmi

[BlackberryJam]

We have three dead Lannisters (Myrcella in the show/Kevan in the books so if Myrcella dies early in Winds, we are at four Lannisters*) and three dead Starks (not including Jon). I think Tommen is not long for this world. I also expect Cersei to go up in flames. The only Lannisters making it out alive are Tyrion and maybe, maybe Jaime. I have Jaime picked to live because he is the Lannister that the Houses of Westeros most want dead.

 

I think either Sansa or Arya dies before the end. 

 

 

 

*This count does not include the boys killed in Robb's camp and Ser Cleos (book only). The Lannisters really have taken a beating already.

[nksarmi]

We have three dead Lannisters (Myrcella in the show/Kevan in the books so if Myrcella dies early in Winds, we are at four Lannisters*) and three dead Starks (not including Jon). I think Tommen is not long for this world. I also expect Cersei to go up in flames. The only Lannisters making it out alive are Tyrion and maybe, maybe Jaime. I have Jaime picked to live because he is the Lannister that the Houses of Westeros most want dead.

 

I think either Sansa or Arya dies before the end. 

 

 

 

*This count does not include the boys killed in Robb's camp and Ser Cleos (book only). The Lannisters really have taken a beating already.

 

Actually if any House is "due" some hits - its the Tyrells.  I am really interested in what happens with Cersei and Marg in season six.

Edited October 1, 2015 by nksarmi

[Crossbow]

I don't know if this counts as a spoiler or not because although it was attributed to GRRM I'm starting to suspect people just make stuff up and attribute it to him, but apparently

Myrcella and Tommen both definitely bite it in Winds of Winter, which will make 5 dead Lannisters.

 

Tyrells: I feel like Loras and Margery are both marked for death.

 

If I were writing it: The winning triumvirate would be Dany as queen, because she makes a good figurehead, with the dragon thing and all; Tyrion as Hand, because he's awesome; Jon putting together all the silly private armies and building a national force to defend against the Others.

 

Of course, if I were writing it, I woulda killed Sansa two books ago. She bores me.

 

ETA: "Dead Lannisters" will be the name of my Paul & Storm cover band.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Crossbow

[benteen]

I don't want to wrap my head around a Jon/Sansa relationship.

[Wouter]

Actually, the more I have seen about Margaery's story line really makes me convinced that Sansa is in no way set up as a nemesis for Cersei. So, what does that leave for Sansa? Show only thoughts here, but if KL is under the control of the Tyrells/Sparrows when Dany finally arrives and Cersei is stripped of her power, what does that leave for Sansa as a political story?

Uniting the North, right? But uniting the North against what? The Boltons? The Others? The incoming Targaryens? Against the Boltons would be short term story only, because it's really the threat from the North or the threat from the South that's the big deal. If R+L=J, then uniting against the Targs becomes unimportant. I also think it's going to be Jon who unites the North against the others.

Okay...so what does that leave as overall endgame story for Sansa? I think it's set up so she could be a tragic death right now because her function in the overall story is small.

There are other potential storylines for Sansa. I see her role for her as a kind of ambassador for the north/the Starks, in the south. One of the Starks will have to be the first to meet Dany (or to react to her, for example by choosing a side for or against her), it may well be Sansa. Could be Arya too, but she would likely opt to stay hidden (I doubt Sansa will be able to keep up her Alayne persona for long).

 

Another potential role is to win allies for the Stark cause; in the books, the Vale immediately comes to mind. Besides swords, the Vale also has food; that could be crucially important.

 

And Tyrion is likely to return, probably with Dany, to Westeros. Whatever you think about the status of their marriage, that's a loose end that will have to be dealt with in some fashion, even if it is merely agreeing to a divorce.

 

Uniting the north? I'm guessing it's more likely that Jon, Bran and/or Rickon will do that. She is in the north in the show, but in the books the signs seem to point to the south, to me. LF is there, Sandor is there, Stoneheart, Jaime and Brienne are there, and the Vale has become her part of the world. 

 

I don't know if this counts as a spoiler or not because although it was attributed to GRRM I'm starting to suspect people just make stuff up and attribute it to him, but apparently

Myrcella and Tommen both definitely bite it in Winds of Winter, which will make 5 dead Lannisters.

 

 

It seems very unlikely to me that GRRM would confirm such a massive spoiler. Seems made-up to me. 

[Hecate7]

It would benefit Tyrion to pretend the marriage to Sansa never even happened. It was never consummated, and she's been married since. He owes her nothing. He's allied with Danaerys, to whom all Starks are as evil as the Lannisters are in the sight of everyone else. And if Tyrion willy-nilly is culpable for Robert's Rebellion even though he was something like 10 years old at the time, and if he's culpable for the Red Wedding even though he had NOTHING to do with it, and didn't even know about it until afterwards, then Sansa is culpable for Robert's Rebellion, the murder and rape of Elia Targaryen, and the murders of those children. As far as Tyrion knows, Sansa is on the side of those who framed him for murdering Joffrey, although he doesn't think she did it herself.

 

His best course now that he's working with Danaerys, is to simply not recognize Sansa if he sees her on the street, and deny that they were ever married. Who can prove it?

[Wouter]

It would benefit Tyrion to pretend the marriage to Sansa never even happened. It was never consummated, and she's been married since. He owes her nothing. [...]

 

His best course now that he's working with Danaerys, is to simply not recognize Sansa if he sees her on the street, and deny that they were ever married. Who can prove it?

Sansa has only married again in the show. In the books, she explicitly thinks - and LF does not disagree - that she cannot marry as long as Tyrion lives or unless the marriage is set aside. Moreover, even a non-consummated marriage is valid until it is annulled, which in the books can only be done by the High Septon. I guess in the show, they worked around that by having the Boltons ignoring the faith as a southern institution.

 

As for who can prove that they ever married, their marriage took place in front of many witnesses. Would be hard to deny it.

 

Having said that, if nor Tyrion nor Dany would want the marriage to continue than nobody is going to insist on that, with the possible exception of the faith. And if the faith gets threatened by dragons, they'll change their mind anyway. And it's not like Sansa would want the marriage to continue.  

[nksarmi]

I guess I never thought about it from Tyrion's point of view....especially when it comes to his relations with Dany. 

 

However, I can't help but think Dany's view of the Starks is going to have to change.  I mean the North is a considerable territory to rule and while she DOES have three dragons (sort of), she has control of exactly ZERO dragons.  On the show AND in the books, it's Starks who seems more likely to be able to connect to said dragons (if Bran is turning into the powerful magical being he seems to be - I'm almost certain he will at some point skinechange a dragon).  Furthermore, even if Jon is the legitimate son of Rheagar (because of a second marriage) and qualified to carry the name Targaryean - he is a STARK, blood of the first men.  Therefore, you could put good money on a Stark riding a dragon at some point. Finally, it's the Starks who are in best position to rally Westerous and defeat the Others.  Dany will have nothing to rule without their help.

 

So it seems to me she's just going to have to get over her bitterness toward the Starks already.  They are much too valuable an ally to lose.

[Wouter]

Dany's view on the Starks is bound to change - not only will her advisors (looking at you, Tyrion) have to start telling her inconvenient truths once she starts to move for Westeros, there are also signs she will come to cooperate with Jon. And I doubt her invasion can be succesfull if she does not show mercy to the former rebels (North, Riverlands, Vale), who are now her most likely allies against the present power on the throne. 

[Audreythe2nd]

More and more lately I've come to think that Dany's "invasion" of Westeros isn't going to be successful, or a good thing at all. I don't actually believe that's the story we're watching anymore. I mean, I've always thought there was something so OFF about the way her narrative is isolated from everyone else's, like she gets to learn how to be the hero and the ruler off-camera and then swoop in and save the day. I mean, what the hell is that? It's so not in the style of this tale. There's going to be some weird caveat in there somewhere. I'm coming around to the idea that what we've been watching with Dany is actually an antagonist's origin story. Not a villain's story, per-say. But her thing has always been that she wants to conquer. Well, until her little sojourn in Meereen where she's trying to be the ruler and saviour of the little people to everyone's mass boredom. However, I'm wondering if this will be flipped again when she meets the Dothraki once more. It's just, the outline of her story as chick who eventually parades in as saviour with her dragons is so damn easy. And if the story did "easy" I'd be like, SURE. But it doesn't. There's going to be some weirdness somewhere, some point where once again we're like, "Crap, I thought I wanted to see that happen, and now I totally don't." Probably right up until the bitter end.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Audreythe2nd

[nksarmi]

More and more lately I've come to think that Dany's "invasion" of Westeros *isn't* going to be successful, or a good thing at all. I don't actually believe that's the story we're watching anymore. I mean, I've always thought there was something so OFF about the way her narrative is isolated from everyone else's, like she gets to learn how to be the hero and the ruler off-camera and then swoop in and save the day. I mean, what the hell is that? It's so not in the style of this tale. There's going to be some weird caveat in there somewhere. I'm coming around to the idea that what we've been watching with Dany is actually an antagonists's origin story. Not a villain's story, but her thing has always been that she wants to conquer. Well, until her little sojourn in Meereen where she's trying to be the ruler and saviour of the little people to everyone's mass boredom, but I'm wondering if this will be flipped again when she meets the Dothraki once more. It's just the outline of her story as chick who eventually swoops in and saves the day with her dragons is so damn easy. And if the story did "easy" I'd be like, SURE. But it doesn't. There's going to be some weirdness somewhere, some point where once again we're like, "Crap, I thought I wanted to see that happen, and now I totally don't." Probably right up until the bitter end.

I read detailed theory once that rather than unite, Dany and Jon would battle in the end and that Jon's future dragon isn't one of Dany's.  I don't buy it, but if the show continues to make Dany seem more brutal than her book counterpart - I might start to rethink it.

 

But I think it's less complicated than Dany turning into the antagonist - I think it's that GRRM lost his way with her story.  At the point where she is, I'd call her a failed ruler who happens to only be in "possession" of one dragon who kind of does whatever he likes.  If in the books, she had forged an alliance with Dorne, I would see how she would enter Westerous.  I might even see how that would keep her and Jon at odds for awhile.  But as of now, I don't even see how she is going to cross the narrow seas and be accepted by anyone.  I don't care about her break the wheel speech, Tyrion is right- she is going to need some allies.  As of right now, I suspect Jon can rise to leadership and defend Westerous with the help of characters like Sansa, Jamie, and Sam's family. 

 

At this rate, by the time Dany gets to Westerous, they might not even need her.  So if she is going to play the hero with her dragons (as opposed to someone the entire realm stands united againstt), Tyrion (and in the show Varys) is going to have to work a miracle.

[Hecate7]

Sansa has only married again in the show. In the books, she explicitly thinks - and LF does not disagree - that she cannot marry as long as Tyrion lives or unless the marriage is set aside. Moreover, even a non-consummated marriage is valid until it is annulled, which in the books can only be done by the High Septon. I guess in the show, they worked around that by having the Boltons ignoring the faith as a southern institution.

 

As for who can prove that they ever married, their marriage took place in front of many witnesses. Would be hard to deny it.

 

Having said that, if nor Tyrion nor Dany would want the marriage to continue than nobody is going to insist on that, with the possible exception of the faith. And if the faith gets threatened by dragons, they'll change their mind anyway. And it's not like Sansa would want the marriage to continue.  

 

We don't really know what Sansa is going to want if and when she ever sees Tyrion again. I mean, it's a safe bet Book!Sansa will want to marry Baelish, and that Book!Baelish will have Tyrion murdered to clear the way, possibly by Tysha or by a Faceless Man wearing her face. He needs Tyrion out of the way in the books. The assassin will bring Tyrion's head back and Baelish will use it to claim another castle and the reward, all the while telling Sansa Tyrion finally got killed by some whore he was bedding. Then Baelish will kill Sansa so he can marry Danaerys or Margaery, whichever one is queen.

 

Alternatively, false reports of Tyrion's death will filter back, Baelish will marry Sansa, then kill her (so he can marry whichever person is queen or next in line to be queen, at that time),  and then someone wearing Sansa's beautiful face will show up and tell Tyrion how much she loves him, just before she kills him. Arya will hang up the pretty red-haired face in the gallery and wonder how it got there, and where she's seen it before. (Sorry, my speculations run awfully dark).

 

On the show, Sansa might actually WANT Tyrion back. Baelish abandoned her to Ramsey. Ramsey turned out to be a horrible person. Theon's a remnant of a person. Jon Snow is at the Wall and probably has much bigger fish to fry. Tyrion saved her several times, and tried to befriend her and be considerate of her, as far as the limits of their social positions allowed at the time. And Sansa may have a reason to want to say she's married, and NOT to Ramsey, after what we saw last season.

 

I do think one or both of them will be in a position to save the other again, and it will be interesting to see what happens. I suspect Tyrion will always err on the side of sympathy to Sansa, even though he really shouldn't.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Hecate7

[nksarmi]

Hecate, regarding your book speculation - I don't even like  Sansa that much, but please lord no to all of it.

Edited October 4, 2015 by nksarmi

[Wouter]

We don't really know what Sansa is going to want if and when she ever sees Tyrion again. I mean, it's a safe bet Book!Sansa will want to marry Baelish, and that Book!Baelish will have Tyrion murdered to clear the way, possibly by Tysha or by a Faceless Man wearing her face. He needs Tyrion out of the way in the books. The assassin will bring Tyrion's head back and Baelish will use it to claim another castle and the reward, all the while telling Sansa Tyrion finally got killed by some whore he was bedding. Then Baelish will kill Sansa so he can marry Danaerys or Margaery, whichever one is queen.

Why would it be a "safe bet" that Book!Sansa would want to marry Littlefinger? I don't think so. Maybe LF would want to marry Sansa, but if so not to then kill her and replace with Margaery or Dany. LF doesn't gain anything by marrying Sansa and then kill her; he needs to first get a heir from her to have claim to anything and even then there are plenty of Starks (and even Tully's) to fight such claims. 

[SeanC]

Why would it be a "safe bet" that Book!Sansa would want to marry Littlefinger? I don't think so. Maybe LF would want to marry Sansa, but if so not to then kill her and replace with Margaery or Dany. LF doesn't gain anything by marrying Sansa and then kill her; he needs to first get a heir from her to have claim to anything and even then there are plenty of Starks (and even Tully's) to fight such claims. 

Beyond which, Littlefinger has a personal fixation on Sansa that goes beyond her political value.

[Hecate7]

Hecate, regarding your book speculation - I don't even like  Sansa that much, but please lord no to all of it.

 

There's no point in the two having married unless it becomes relevant again. Since Tyrion did save Sansa, and in many ways is responsible for her still being alive, it's inevitable that his life will be in her hands eventually, and she will most likely drop the ball, to the delight of Littlefinger.

 

The reason to marry Sansa is to get her claim of the North. Same reason everyone else ever had for wanting to marry Sansa. But since he is now her uncle by marriage, Littlefinger doesn't need to do it--he's already Lord Protector of any claim Sansa has once the husband is dead, as long as she has a child or is carrying one by that husband. He knows how to nudge these situations into being. He also knows how to knock her up and lie that it's Robin's or Tyrion's or whosever child he needs it to be. The game is to collect enough kingdoms to weigh equally with whichever party has the Iron Throne, then marry or war his way onto the throne. That is his game and he will play it. Sansa is not endgame for Littlefinger. She is a playing piece through which he can capture kingdoms, just as her aunt was, and he will use her in precisely the same way he used Lyssa.

 

Ideally Tyrion will thwart him eventually. It ought to be Tyrion because that's Littlefinger's real opponent in this game and always has been, and because from the beginning, Tyrion has been the unlikely and reluctant ally of the Starks, especially Sansa. But because this is not a fairy tale, he will probably pay for it with his life.

[Hecate7]

Beyond which, Littlefinger has a personal fixation on Sansa that goes beyond her political value.

 

Yes, he does. She resembles her mother, who rejected his proposal. Remember Cat? His fixation on her did not save her, nor did it save any of her children. It did not save Sansa from Ramsey, and although book Sansa hasn't married Ramsey yet, she probably will because Show Sansa did. Either that or Harry turns out to be a lot like Ramsey.

 

Baelish made much of his one true love, but he did it in front of Sansa, remember? We're all assuming that it's true, but have we been inside his head? Do we know whether that was a ploy for Sansa's benefit? And if it isn't, well, we've seen what happens when someone rejects Baelish's marriage proposal.

[SeanC]

Yes, he does. She resembles her mother, who rejected his proposal. Remember Cat? His fixation on her did not save her, nor did it save any of her children.

Why would Littlefinger give a damn about Catelyn's children with Ned Stark?  And, for that matter, Catelyn herself was no longer an object of interest to him; she rejected him and had a happy marriage.  Sansa is the teen Catelyn of his childhood fantasies.

 

It did not save Sansa from Ramsey, and although book Sansa hasn't married Ramsey yet, she probably will because Show Sansa did.

Um, no.  Show Sansa replaced Jeyne Poole.  Sansa in the books is unlikely to ever end up anywhere near Ramsay.

 

We're all assuming that it's true, but have we been inside his head? Do we know whether that was a ploy for Sansa's benefit?

George R. R. Martin has quite openly talked about Littlefinger's infatuation with Sansa.  It's legitimate.  It really doesn't make sense for it to be a ploy, because anybody looking at the situation rationally would see that his creeping on her is actually extremely counterproductive.  Sansa was/is desperately lonely and was actually kind of open to having Baelish as a friend/uncle figure; his impulsive kissing her and all his subsequent sexual advances upset her.  Hence, that's why she assigns those to the "Littlefinger" persona that she doesn't like.

Edited October 4, 2015 by SeanC

[Hecate7]

Why would Littlefinger give a damn about Catelyn's children with Ned Stark?  And, for that matter, Catelyn herself was no longer an object of interest to him; she rejected him and had a happy marriage.  Sansa is the teen Catelyn of his childhood fantasies.

 

Um, no.  Show Sansa replaced Jeyne Poole.  Sansa in the books is unlikely to ever end up anywhere near Ramsay.

 

George R. R. Martin has quite openly talked about Littlefinger's infatuation with Sansa.  It's legitimate.  It really doesn't make sense for it to be a ploy, because anybody looking at the situation rationally would see that his creeping on her is actually extremely counterproductive.  Sansa was/is desperately lonely and was actually kind of open to having Baelish as a friend/uncle figure; his impulsive kissing her and all his subsequent sexual advances upset her.  Hence, that's why she assigns those to the "Littlefinger" persona that she doesn't like.

 

He proposed to Catelyn over her husband's dead body. His "obsession" with her was still quite active, after he had already become obsessed with her daughter. And Cat's rejection of him resulted in her death. As for why he should care about her children, he ought to because they're hers. Because he ought to care about her happiness and well-being if he loves her, but he really doesn't. And he doesn't care about Sansa, either, in the long run. I don't know why anyone is imagining that Baelish's infatuation with Sansa is some kind of magical talisman that's going to protect her from harm. It's not.

 

What I mean by a ploy, is that his "only Cat" remark led Sansa to believe, along with the rest of us, that she has some power, perhaps a LOT of power, over Baelish, when in fact she has no more power over him than Cat, Roz, or Lysa had. And my final remark still stands: if Baelish is as infatuated with Sansa as he was with Cat, she'd better want to marry him. It won't be pretty if she doesn't.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Hecate7