Season 6: Speculation

[Greta]

Random speculation: Hodor became Hodorized by Rhaegar (with a blow to the head?) during the "kidnapping" of Lyanna.  R+L=J has been so romanticized, especially the noble prince who had such noble pure reasons for abandoning his wife and children to run off with someone else and knock her up while the 7 Kingdoms he was supposed to rule went up in flames (literally in some places). I want it mucked up like everything else in Westeros.

[GrailKing]

On 4/25/2016 at 0:35 AM, Eyes High said:

 

I doubt the outfit is any sort of hint. Remember the dragonfly Michele Clapton was so persistent in using as a motif in Sansa's costuming? Exactly. Fans are still trying to figure that one out. Sometimes a cool design is just a cool design.

 

 

If Sansa/Tyrion was going to be a thing in the long run, the showrunners wouldn't have dispensed with their marriage so readily.

I thought I answered this here I know I mentioned the dragonfly, but look closely it's a direwolf surrounded with blue roses on vines, and if people want more on symbolism of Sansa's outfits goto the forum on the wardrobe.

Sansa speaks not just with words, but her body and facial language and her wardrobe.

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I thought I answered this here I know I mentioned the dragonfly, but look closely it's a direwolf surrounded with blue roses on vines, and if people want more on symbolism of Sansa's outfits goto the forum on the wardrobe.

Sansa speaks not just with words, but her body and facial language and her wardrobe.

There have been many instances where Sansa's wardrobe has a lot of interesting symbolism, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and the dragonfly thing is one example. The fandom twisted itself into knots years ago to come up with a good explanation for the dragonflies in Sansa's wardrobe and came up with nothing, and I remember those debates well. Michele Clapton as far as I know never explained her fondness for dragonfly motifs in Sansa's wardrobe, and there's no tie between dragonflies and Sansa in the books.

I'm not the first or the only one to notice this, but in 6x01-6x02, there have been a lot of violent overthrows: Ellaria overthrowing Doran, Edd and the wildlings overthrowing Alliser, Ramsay overthrowing Roose, and Euron literally overthrowing Balon. KL will likely see some shifts in power as well before the end of the season.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There have been many instances where Sansa's wardrobe has a lot of interesting symbolism, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and the dragonfly thing is one example. The fandom twisted itself into knots years ago to come up with a good explanation for the dragonflies in Sansa's wardrobe and came up with nothing, and I remember those debates well. Michele Clapton as far as I know never explained her fondness for dragonfly motifs in Sansa's wardrobe, and there's no tie between dragonflies and Sansa in the books.

I'm not the first or the only one to notice this, but in 6x01-6x02, there have been a lot of violent overthrows: Ellaria overthrowing Doran, Edd and the wildlings overthrowing Alliser, Ramsay overthrowing Roose, and Euron literally overthrowing Balon. KL will likely see some shifts in power as well before the end of the season.

Actually she did say what the dragonfly meant, as far as the raven dress and others, people have to find that out for them selves but they stated that what she wears is a statement about her.

Also from Mrs Clapton:

First wedding Dress

For Sansa’s wedding dress the designer Michele Clapton wanted to have an embroidered band that wrapped around which symbolistically told Sansa’s life from the Tully and Stark beginnings to the entanglement with the Lannisters.

The Raven Dress

Michele Clapton reminds us that Sansa makes her own clothes "so it was a very deliberate decision of hers, to change and say, ‘I’m not going to be pushed around. I’m going to take charge... It’s her chance to take control... When she comes down the stairs, she’s playing with it like, ‘This is me, taking control of this situation.’”
Clapton also points out the eldest Stark's handmade necklace, which has a long spike at the end of its chain. Clapton calls this Sansa's "needle," drawing parallels to the name of her sister's beloved sword.

Edited May 3, 2016 by GrailKing

[Avaleigh]

6 hours ago, Greta said:

Random speculation: Hodor became Hodorized by Rhaegar (with a blow to the head?) during the "kidnapping" of Lyanna.  R+L=J has been so romanticized, especially the noble prince who had such noble pure reasons for abandoning his wife and children to run off with someone else and knock her up while the 7 Kingdoms he was supposed to rule went up in flames (literally in some places). I want it mucked up like everything else in Westeros.

This is wild speculation on my part but I'm starting to suspect that Hodor is going to take on some of Patchface's story. When Bloodraven started talking about how he was essentially pulling Bran away from the sea before he drowned it made me think about Patchface and his overall situation and now I'm wondering if whatever Patchface saw to change him from the clever boy he was is something similar to what show Hodor has gone through.  

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Actually she did say what the dragonfly meant

I can't find any source for that, and I remember the fandom couldn't come up with anything when the dragonfly motifs were in full force, either.

Besides, even if Michele Clapton has an explanation for the dragonfly, it would be Michele Clapton's idea and not GRRM's, and since dragonflies have no association with Sansa in the books whatsoever, she likely has no better explanation than "They look cool," which was my point.

[GrailKing]

15 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I can't find any source for that, and I remember the fandom couldn't come up with anything when the dragonfly motifs were in full force, either.

Besides, even if Michele Clapton has an explanation for the dragonfly, it would be Michele Clapton's idea and not GRRM's, and since dragonflies have no association with Sansa in the books whatsoever, she likely has no better explanation than "They look cool," which was my point.

In book we're in her mind, in show it's visual and symbolic, that’s the difference, all the female leads their costumes are telling a story, not just their words or actions.

GRRM has told us specificity that Sansa is changing, morphing becoming her own person, changing from a piece to a player, all these words are symbolic of the Dragonfly and Butterfly motif for Sansa. 

This year when she comes out with the Direwolf and Blue Roses her journey will return her to her roots, how GRRM does it in book will be through her thoughts, just like he tells us how much of a Stark she is, or why she chooses a certain dress over another, these things have to be shown on TV.

As much as I like GRRM, I learn this, he can't write sex scenes and I don't think he cares much of fashion, LOL.

Any how this is how I read her and I have no problem with others version of her... well maybe calling her brainless.

Edited May 3, 2016 by GrailKing
Added stuff

[Winnief]

Ramsay being Ramsay, I wouldn't be surprised if the two figures on crosses were the Karstarks or his other supposed allies.

 

I'm just wondering what Sansa will do for clothes when she gets to the Wall!  Maybe Mel will lend her some material...

Seriously, though my guess is that Sansa will ultimately be the deciding factor in convincing Jon to leave the NW.  Hell he isn't actually "breaking an oath" really anyway.  He served until his death...

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, Winnief said:

Ramsay being Ramsay, I wouldn't be surprised if the two figures on crosses were the Karstarks or his other supposed allies.

 

I'm just wondering what Sansa will do for clothes when she gets to the Wall!  Maybe Mel will lend her some material...

Seriously, though my guess is that Sansa will ultimately be the deciding factor in convincing Jon to leave the NW.  Hell he isn't actually "breaking an oath" really anyway.  He served until his death...

Well what we do know from sources so far

Rickon isn't one of them, it's people meaningful or known to us and or the Stark loyalist

[Winnief]

Also I'm curious about the upcoming meeting between Westeros's two most famous redheads.  Mel had a vision pertaining to Arya, (which also established that Mel will live long enough to meet Arya again even if she doesn't survive the encounter) so it would be interesting to see if Mel saw anything in *Sansa's* future or for that matter Brienne's

 

Of course while Mel's visions are always accurate interpreting them can be a bitch...

[GrailKing]

19 minutes ago, Winnief said:

Also I'm curious about the upcoming meeting between Westeros's two most famous redheads.  Mel had a vision pertaining to Arya, (which also established that Mel will live long enough to meet Arya again even if she doesn't survive the encounter) so it would be interesting to see if Mel saw anything in *Sansa's* future or for that matter Brienne's

 

Of course while Mel's visions are always accurate interpreting them can be a bitch...

I still think (my thoughts only) she didn't see herself walking the walls of WF it's Sansa, I also don't assume she will see Arya again because any time a person makes a promise or guarantee they don't come to fruition or ...oh wait they die, Arya kills her if Davos doesn't.

[AuntieMame]

The name of the GoT embroideress is Michele Carragher, not Clapton. I imagine some of the reason she used dragonflies is because they're amazing with a lot of plasticity and potential as a decorative motif. She used other things that were clearer from a symbolic perspective and probably used the dragonflies because they were beautiful and suited her methods and materials. She works on organza a lot and then applies that to the clothing and what is better than organza as an insect wing? Dragonflies also seem to be a personal favorite. She has a site. Pretty amazing stuff. 

[Umbelina]

I believe I've had this thought before, but now that Arya is no longer blind, and accepted back into her program (ahem) and will presumably become proficient at changing her appearance?  Maybe she will be the one to kill Cersei after all, using Jamie's face, or even Tommen's?

[Oscirus]

So now that Tyrion being a dragon rider is all but confirmed, does anybody know which dragon Tyrion was bonding with? I assume it was Viserion but it's hard to tell in the dark.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So now that Tyrion being a dragon rider is all but confirmed, does anybody know which dragon Tyrion was bonding with? I assume it was Viserion but it's hard to tell in the dark.

I couldn't tell which dragon was supposed to be which in that scene. They both looked kind of greenish to me.

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I believe I've had this thought before, but now that Arya is no longer blind, and accepted back into her program (ahem) and will presumably become proficient at changing her appearance?  Maybe she will be the one to kill Cersei after all, using Jamie's face, or even Tommen's?

I think she has a Date with a certain Wolf myself, though they could send her to KL and doing what she does best decides to make a change in plans instead, an old man before a child or Regent.

[Maximum Taco]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I believe I've had this thought before, but now that Arya is no longer blind, and accepted back into her program (ahem) and will presumably become proficient at changing her appearance?  Maybe she will be the one to kill Cersei after all, using Jamie's face, or even Tommen's?

Unless they are drastically departing from the books, Faceless Men don't work like that. They can't take any face they want, it has to be a dead person in their collection, who has been specially treated to be added to the Hall of Faces.

Jaime or Tommen would need to die at the Temple in Braavos (or have their corpse transported there) for Arya to have access to their faces.

Also Faceless Men cannot change their basic body proportions, Arya could concievably take on the appearance of Tommen or another child, but she cannot gain 100+ lbs and a foot in height and put on Jaime's appearance.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I couldn't tell which dragon was supposed to be which in that scene. They both looked kind of greenish to me.

t

Thanks for the reply, I did a bit more research. Since Tyrion's walking to his right and based off this picture where they were originally chained, I'd say it's safe to say that he was petting on Rhaegal. Interesting.

[GrailKing]

So speculate away folks, did she or didn't she?

The prayer is more formal then the one Thorus of Myr said, her "please" at the end makes it more personal and heart felt, so God of Light, Old God or he wasn't truly dead the cold slowed down his heart rate?

 

Speaking of the resurrection, David J. Peterson, the show’s creator of High Valyrian, has helpfully published a translation of Melisandre’s High Valyrian dialogue spoken over Jon’s body in “Home.”

This is what she said (in High Valyrian):

Zȳhys ōñoso jehikagon Āeksiot epi, se gīs hen sȳndrorro jemagon.
“We ask the Lord to shine his light, and lead a soul out of darkness.”

Zȳhys perzys stepagon Āeksio Ōño jorepi, se morghūltas lȳs qēlītsos sikagon.
“We beg the Lord to share his fire, and light a candle that has gone out.”

Hen sȳndrorro, ōños. Hen ñuqīr, perzys. Hen morghot, glaeson.
“From darkness, light. From ashes, fire. From death, life.”

[Alapaki]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

So speculate away folks, did she or didn't she?

The prayer is more formal then the one Thorus of Myr said, her "please" at the end makes it more personal and heart felt, so God of Light, Old God or he wasn't truly dead the cold slowed down his heart rate?

Ordinarily I'd be willing to put some weight on "suspended-state-of-animation-from-the-cold" as a rationale.  But I think the show has given us several very explicit cues meant to close off that possibility:

1) We saw the great amount of blood flowing out of Jon onto the snow;

2) We saw Davos staring at the ground that Jon had been lifted from (I know there are several theories on this, but shock at the amount of blood loss is the Occam's Razor explanation); and

3) Tormund specifically remarks on Jon having been stabbed so many times.  

I think when you put these together, the show is trying to forestall any speculation that Jon might not have been truly dead.

[nksarmi]

I could easily go with Mel resurrected his body by petitioning the Lord of Light AND John had warged into Ghost and the shot of Ghost waking up right before John's eyes open is him realizing he can return to his body.

And they could easily cover this possibility with a few lines from John to Mel upon his resurrection. Then Mel could be the one to confirm he's a warg and perhaps that leads her to wondering what else might be magical about him?

Edited May 3, 2016 by nksarmi

[ElizaD]

I hope Tormund gets the Umber lands after he wrecks the treacherous Smalljon.

I looked at the casting calls for Northern lords and the big man was said to be in two episodes, the ruthless lord in three. So that could be Umber in 6x03 and 6x09, Karstark in 6x02, 6x03 and 6x09, with both dying in the battle but not, surprisingly, having any Winterfell scenes with Ramsay after Rickon's arrival and before Snowbowl.

[SeanC]

24 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I looked at the casting calls for Northern lords and the big man was said to be in two episodes, the ruthless lord in three. So that could be Umber in 6x03 and 6x09, Karstark in 6x02, 6x03 and 6x09, with both dying in the battle but not, surprisingly, having any Winterfell scenes with Ramsay after Rickon's arrival and before Snowbowl.

I was wondering about that as well.  Doesn't seem like Ramsay has many scene partners available until Snowbowl, if that's how it goes.

[Umbelina]

I think I may be the only one who doesn't really care why Jon is resurrected.  ?

He is, we are now sure he has an end-game role to play, or at least I am.  Having Lyanna in the same episode lends even more proof that he is, indeed her child and 1/2 Targ. 

Honestly, the whole resurrection from the dead stuff was probably one of the least interesting of GRRM's little plot points.  I'm personally delighted that we didn't have to endure Lady Stoneheart, for example.  Although I'd still like to hear Brienne's answer in the books, or at least the way it was delivered.

More and more my overview of this is a bunch of religious and political or greedy people are warring among each other while climate change is their actual enemy and likely to wipe them all out while they diddle around.  I'd be truly shocked if there is one "correct" religion, it all seems like a metaphor for now.  Winter is coming, and only a handful truly care or understand what that will mean, the others all continue to grab like pigs at a trough, or kill each other in the name of their "God(s)."

At the end of the day, will that be all this is?  Will a handful survive?  Or will our three most likely heroes actually save the day riding in on Dragons capable of melting the Ice and killing the White Walkers? 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Umbelina

[Chris24601]

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

At the end of the day, will that be all this is?  Will a handful survive?  Or will our three most likely heroes actually save the day riding in on Dragons capable of melting the Ice and killing the White Walkers?

I choose Option C. The Mother of the literal embodiments of burning fire and death and her forces will end up as as dangerous to life as the literal embodiments of freezing cold and death are. The survivors will be those who stand with Jon, a harmony of both Stark and Targaryan (A Song of Ice and Fire you might say) and that the solution will not be one side or the other winning, but in finding a peaceful balance between the two (and in bringing peace and saving the common people becomes worthy of the title King by deed and not just blood).

Either that or the two sides will destroy each other (balance through mutual annihilation) and Jon Snow will be the one who helps as many people as possible survive the conflict and then leads them into a new era.

[Alapaki]

Quote

I choose Option C. The Mother of the literal embodiments of burning fire and death and her forces will end up as as dangerous to life as the literal embodiments of freezing cold and death are.

That's interesting because just this morning I was contemplating the fact that a reestablishment of the pure Targaryen line (through Dany) is not necessarily a good thing, per se.

Westeros was only "united" under Targaryens for 300 years.  A united Kingdom ruled from Kings Landing is really the exception rather than the rule, historically there.  And the only reason is was united in the first place was through fear of an invader who had dragons.  He was called Aegon the Conqueror, after all.  

Robb Stark sort of started the ball rolling by, rather than making a claim for the Iron Throne, declared himself "King in the North".  

I see no reason why a more decentralized rule in Westeros would not be the most mutually advantageous equilibrium for all involved (other than Dany, of course).

[Eyes High]

20 hours ago, SeanC said:

I was wondering about that as well.  Doesn't seem like Ramsay has many scene partners available until Snowbowl, if that's how it goes.

There's always the poor maester, I guess...Maybe Ramsay goes quiet for a few episodes leading up to the BOTB, which if he does in fact have Rickon after 6x03 would leave us in suspense as to whether or not Rickon was still alive (and as to whether Ramsay was planning anything crazy). I seem to recall there not being much from Stannis' end in the episodes leading up to Blackwater, either.

Quote

I see no reason why a more decentralized rule in Westeros would not be the most mutually advantageous equilibrium for all involved (other than Dany, of course).

Jon being a Targ--which I expect will be shortly revealed in the show--points away from the North going its own way, as it ties the Starks into the wider dynastic struggle and gives one of their surviving members a blood tie (and possible claim) to the throne. I guess Jon could always take the position of "Fuck my Targ blood, leave me out of this throne business, I'm a Northerner to my bones and we're taking our kingdom for ourselves," but I doubt it will be that simple. 

Greatjon said back in AGOT/Season 1 in explaining why they should name a king in the North that it was the dragons the Northerners "married"--an interesting word choice given the lack of historical Targ/Stark marriages and the way the word implies the consent rather than the subjugation of the North--but they're gone. Well, not so much, as it turns out. If the dragons are back in a big way, then that will likely bring the North back into the fold again.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

Update looks like we need to wait and see:

Book readers have theorized that Jon warged into Ghost before his death. During the resurrection scene, Ghost turns his attention to Jon right before he wakes up. Is there anything viewers with that theory should read into Ghost turning toward Jon?

I cannot answer this question. (Laughs.) I would say if you keep watching, all will be revealed. Better to leave it to the fans to discover.

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-director-pulls-back-890084

[Hecate7]

On 5/2/2016 at 2:22 AM, ElizaD said:

There was a casting call for a nobleman who makes a stirring speech and shifts allegiances. It's looking like the Umbers are going to be genuinely loyal to the Boltons but Lord Manderly will go to Bear Island and choose the Starks.

IMO, if Sansan was going to happen they would have cast someone closer to Book Sandor's age and not a man who's now approaching fifty. Surely GRRM spoiled the major endings even before they started having more detailed meetings with him, and that should have included both titles (Lord of Winterfell? The Rock?) and main characters' marriages (Jon/Dany? Sansa/Sandor?).

If Jaime Lannister dies, maybe we'll get BrieSan instead. That IMO would be much better. Two hardened fighters who want the world to be a great deal better than it currently is. That would be a fine thing.

[GrailKing]

16 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

If Jaime Lannister dies, maybe we'll get BrieSan instead. That IMO would be much better. Two hardened fighters who want the world to be a great deal better than it currently is. That would be a fine thing.

When I first saw this I said NOooo! loosing two hot females to each other and leaving me in the cold. LOL

[Oscirus]

So after watching this episode, I'm pretty sure that Cersei's going to kill the shit out of Tommen sometime this season after he disobeys her.

So after BOTB Littlefinger becomes warden of the North by order of Cersei. Does he try to force Sansa to marry him to gain respect  in the North or does he use Cersei's hatred of Sansa to galvanize the north against her in a potential coup?

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So after BOTB Littlefinger becomes warden of the North by order of Cersei. Does he try to force Sansa to marry him to gain respect  in the North or does he use Cersei's hatred of Sansa to galvanize the north against her in a potential coup?

Littlefinger's deal with Cersei is just a way for him to postpone his breach with the Crown while he invades the North.  Once he's taken the North, his plan is to turn on the Lannisters.  I expect he does envision marrying Sansa as part of this, since as we've been told repeatedly that's necessary to hold the North.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So after watching this episode, I'm pretty sure that Cersei's going to kill the shit out of Tommen sometime this season after he disobeys her.

So after BOTB Littlefinger becomes warden of the North by order of Cersei. Does he try to force Sansa to marry him to gain respect  in the North or does he use Cersei's hatred of Sansa to galvanize the north against her in a potential coup?

Littleginger only gets to be Warden by Cersei's decree if he puts Sansa's head on a spike first. So the first option of marrying her is right out.

I go with Option C: Littlefinger's scheming is exposed and Sansa has Littlefinger's head put on a spike over Winterfell (as was prophesied by Patchface in the books) and then, when the Wall comes down, adds her voice to Jon's in calling for aid from all the Realms of Men to rally at Winterfell to stand against the coming of the White Walkers.

[SeanC]

31 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Littleginger only gets to be Warden by Cersei's decree if he puts Sansa's head on a spike first. So the first option of marrying her is right out.

Cersei's decree is irrelevant in Littlefinger's plan, both because the show has already established that royal decree isn't enough to hold the North (contrary to what Cersei thinks), because the Valemen are pro-Sansa (again, unbeknownst to Cersei), and because Littlefinger has (or believes he has; we'll see how the show plays it) Sansa on his side.  The sole point of the scheme is to invade the North and attack the Boltons without arousing the Lannisters' suspicion.  Once that's done, he's going to turn on the Lannisters.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Littleginger only gets to be Warden by Cersei's decree if he puts Sansa's head on a spike first. So the first option of marrying her is right out.

I go with Option C: Littlefinger's scheming is exposed and Sansa has Littlefinger's head put on a spike over Winterfell (as was prophesied by Patchface in the books) and then, when the Wall comes down, adds her voice to Jon's in calling for aid from all the Realms of Men to rally at Winterfell to stand against the coming of the White Walkers.

It was the old woman the GOHH about a maiden with serpents in her hair ( the net with poison) and seeing the same maiden slay a savage giant in a castle of snow.It's the same passage she sees Arya face to face and sees death.

We see Sansa put robins doll head on a spike.

Edited May 5, 2016 by GrailKing
Info.

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

Littlefinger's deal with Cersei is just a way for him to postpone his breach with the Crown while he invades the North.  Once he's taken the North, his plan is to turn on the Lannisters.  I expect he does envision marrying Sansa as part of this, since as we've been told repeatedly that's necessary to hold the North.

I  suspected as much.  So the interesting thing is seeing how he'll try to convince Sansa to marry him. I imagine the days of people forcing her to do things are over.

[GrailKing]

10 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I  suspected as much.  So the interesting thing is seeing how he'll try to convince Sansa to marry him. I imagine the days of people forcing her to do things are over.

Or says yes. then kills him sometime after, getting his lands and wealth and hopefully use it for the fight and her family.

A reversal of the show, the creeps are different, the story may be the same.

Edited May 5, 2016 by GrailKing

[Oscirus]

I don't think doing the black widow thing is really Sansa's style. That being said, I do think that she will eventually kill Littlefinger when the time comes.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

I don't think doing the black widow thing is really Sansa's style. That being said, I do think that she will eventually kill Littlefinger when the time comes.

In 4x04, there was that cut from Tyrion saying that Sansa's "not yet" a killer to a scene with Littlefinger and Sansa. I mean, come on.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

In 4x04, there was that cut from Tyrion saying that Sansa's "not yet" a killer to a scene with Littlefinger and Sansa. I mean, come on.

To be honest, you are agreeing with Oscirus, Sansa will most likely kill him, Oscirus just disagrees it be by marrying him first, I bring up the method because in the online Alayne chapter Sansa

knows Baleish is buying up all the food and planning on profiting from it

.

Which also had me wonder how it will happen as Sansa doesn't seem to have her needle ( unless it's in a pocket) or she walks the walls of Winterfell. So though I’m a huge Sansa fan I still hark back to Ned and Lady and his action, will Sansa sacrifice herself by killing LF to save a family member or her death will prevent another Stark death.

[Eyes High]

I meant that I'm going to feel pretty jerked around if Sansa doesn't kill Littlefinger...although I suppose the 4x04 bit could just mean that under Littlefinger's influence, Sansa will become a killer, not necessarily that Littlefinger's the person Sansa will kill.

I'm intrigued by that bit with LF and the other person in the godswood in the trailer, mainly because LF is not looking like his usual smug self when he sees the other person.

Sansa's outlived her wolf by a few years now (in both the show and the books), but if her wolf's death was somehow predictive of hers, then I would expect Sansa to die in Arya's place the way Lady died in Nymeria's place. Not sure how that would actually work, though, especially since it's Sansa who's currently accused of regicide, not Arya.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I meant that I'm going to feel pretty jerked around if Sansa doesn't kill Littlefinger...although I suppose the 4x04 bit could just mean that under Littlefinger's influence, Sansa will become a killer, not necessarily that Littlefinger's the person Sansa will kill.

I'm intrigued by that bit with LF and the other person in the godswood in the trailer, mainly because LF is not looking like his usual smug self when he sees the other person.

Sansa's outlived her wolf by a few years now (in both the show and the books), but if her wolf's death was somehow predictive of hers, then I would expect Sansa to die in Arya's place the way Lady died in Nymeria's place. Not sure how that would actually work, though, especially since it's Sansa who's currently accused of regicide, not Arya.

The promo with LF in the woods, I slowed that down and couldn't tell who it may be, a site on youtube showed a flash of red, but it did not look like hair to me, so we'll have to wait~ ep 6-10?

 

ETA: if it makes you feel any better the

GOHH is  pretty accurate

, better then Mel anyway.

Edited May 6, 2016 by GrailKing
info

[BlackberryJam]

I don't get why it's important that Sansa kill LF. Who cares who does it? As long as he's dead. I don't care if Ramsay chokes on a  prune as long as he dies. The manner and means don't matter.

 

I'm kind of into the idea of a fake Rickon being given to Ramsay rather than the real Rickon, just because I think Osha knows a psycho when she sees one.

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I don't get why it's important that Sansa kill LF. Who cares who does it? As long as he's dead. I don't care if Ramsay chokes on a  prune as long as he dies. The manner and means don't matter.

It matters because Littlefinger has been set up as the main antagonist/mentor in Sansa's story, and if there's no meaningful payoff to that it would be highly unsatisfying to many people.

As far as Littlefinger's downfall, though, I don't think Sansa is going to actually physically kill him.  It would be far more fitting for her to order his arrest and execution.

[BlackberryJam]

But that's not really the story being told, is it? Roose didn't die because he killed the Starks. Joff didn't die because he beheaded Ned. Tywin didn't die because he engineered the Red Wedding. I didn't think any of those deaths were unsatisying.

 

I'm not sure why Sansa, in particular, should be expected to have story payoff with Littlefinger.  

[Eyes High]

31 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It matters because Littlefinger has been set up as the main antagonist/mentor in Sansa's story, and if there's no meaningful payoff to that it would be highly unsatisfying to many people.

As far as Littlefinger's downfall, though, I don't think Sansa is going to actually physically kill him.  It would be far more fitting for her to order his arrest and execution.

Sansa physically killing Littlefinger doesn't seem like her style, either in the book or in the show. She's just not a violent person, especially not in the books but even in the show to a certain extent (slapping Robin notwithstanding). I do agree that she'll be directly responsible for his death, although I doubt she'd personally execute him herself.

 

19 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

But that's not really the story being told, is it? Roose didn't die because he killed the Starks. Joff didn't die because he beheaded Ned. Tywin didn't die because he engineered the Red Wedding. I didn't think any of those deaths were unsatisying.

 

I'm not sure why Sansa, in particular, should be expected to have story payoff with Littlefinger.  

I don't think Littlefinger would die because Sansa suddenly figured out all the ways he'd wronged her family. He would die because he assumed he could control and manipulate Sansa the way he controlled and manipulated everyone, even while teaching Sansa exactly how to control and manipulate him. His arrogance will be his downfall, not some last-minute revelation of all the ways he's fucked over the Starks.

As for Joffrey and Tywin, they didn't die because of the evils that they visited on the Starks, no, but they were paid back in kind for their spectacularly horrible behaviour. Joffrey died as a result of his horrible treatment of Sansa, since that prompted Olenna to get rid of him in favour of his kinder and more tractable younger brother; Joffrey's fate was sealed the moment Sansa told the truth about how terrible he was. Tywin died because he assumed he could continue treating Tyrion like shit--even with a crossbow pointed at him--without consequences. In both instances, their behaviour towards others resulted in their deaths just as, I assume, Littlefinger's behaviour towards Sansa will result in his.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[BlackberryJam]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

As for Joffrey and Tywin, they didn't die because of the evils that they visited on the Starks, no, but they were paid back in kind for their spectacularly horrible behaviour. Joffrey died as a result of his horrible treatment of Sansa, since that prompted Olenna to get rid of him in favour of his kinder and more tractable younger brother. Tywin died because he assumed he could continue treating Tyrion like shit--even with a crossbow pointed at him--without consequences. In both instances, their cruelty towards others resulted in their deaths.

So, it's just as likely that Littlefinger dies by the hand of Robin Arryn. 

I don't see Sansa killing anyone, directly. Nor do I see her ordering an execution. I just don't think Sansa is going to get a more satisfying payoff than any other character. 

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I just don't think Sansa is going to get a more satisfying payoff than any other character. 

Why would that constitute a more satisfying payoff than any other character?

[Umbelina]

I never hated Littlefinger.  Yes, the show made him a mustache twirling cartoon villain, but for some reason, he always seemed the smartest to me, and frankly, the most likely to survive.

He's Rhett Butler, but doesn't have the rich family background.  Rhett even partly owned a whorehouse, and there are more comparisons, aside from the money/family issues.

Anyway, the main reason I liked Littlefinger is because he is the American Dream in reality, and in a feudal world, he is the character who managed, by wits alone to elevate his station in life.  The others were all born into it, or religious fanatics or shysters.  He came from a very poor, bleak childhood, and by sheer determination and wits, rose to power, one step at a time. 

In the books, the "little people" break my heart the most, they are the beauty in GRRM's writing, even though we get almost none of that from the show.  They are the casual fodder for rich, born to power, undeserving characters to rape, kill, starve, burn, all in their quests for power, the throne, more money.  Littlefinger would have been one of those unimportant people, but he flipped the switch.  He rose to a level where he couldn't just be a pawn in their games.  He's the one storing food, and finding a fortress that is more secure.  He's the one planning, while all the rest fight, destroy field for the hell of it (burning that limited food that all, especially the peasants, will need to survive winter.) 

He is the least odious to me because he was born without options, without security, without anything in his favor other than his wits.  He made those 1%'ers his pawns, he outsmarted them.  Yes, he's ruthless, but hello!  So are they!  Is he more ruthless?  Not to me.  He's simply more intelligent and more determined.

/ducks

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Anyway, the main reason I liked Littlefinger is because he is the American Dream in reality, and in a feudal world, he is the character who managed, by wits alone to elevate his station in life.  The others were all born into it, or religious fanatics or shysters.  He came from a very poor, bleak childhood, and by sheer determination and wits, rose to power, one step at a time. 

In the books, the "little people" break my heart the most, they are the beauty in GRRM's writing, even though we get almost none of that from the show.  They are the casual fodder for rich, born to power, undeserving characters to rape, kill, starve, burn, all in their quests for power, the throne, more money.  Littlefinger would have been one of those unimportant people, but he flipped the switch.  He rose to a level where he couldn't just be a pawn in their games.  He's the one storing food, and finding a fortress that is more secure.  He's the one planning, while all the rest fight, destroy field for the hell of it (burning that limited food that all, especially the peasants, will need to survive winter.) 

He is the least odious to me because he was born without options, without security, without anything in his favor other than his wits.  He made those 1%'ers his pawns, he outsmarted them.  Yes, he's ruthless, but hello!  So are they!  Is he more ruthless?  Not to me.  He's simply more intelligent and more determined.

Littlefinger is not one of the "little people".  He's "little" in comparison to Hoster Tully or Eddard Stark, for instance, but he is still a nobleman.  And he didn't rise solely by his own skills, though those skills are considerable.  He got his fostered place at Riverrun because his father was a friend of Lord Hoster, and his crucial customs job was only his because Lysa Tully was in love with him.  Everything else flowed from that.  He is a 1%er, he's just not a 0.1%er.