S05.E06: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

[Lady S.]

I like the Tyrells, but this is a good assessment of them.  Olenna saw the abject misery that was Sansa's life.  She pretended to be kind and caring of Sansa.  Then she was co-conspirator to regicide, using innocent Sansa as the carrier of the poison.  Olenna is very clever.  There's no way Sansa would have been free of suspicion.  She was just collateral damage to Olenna.

 

And I guess by saying the Tyrells, I really mean Olenna.  She's very clear that her son is a moron, and her grandson is a silly pillow-biter.  All her hopes and dreams seem to be centered around Margaery, yet Olenna thinks it's a good idea to tie their fates with the Lannisters.  Now prior to her marriage to Joffrey, I could understand it.  But by the time she married Tommen, it was clear the public had turned on the Lannisters.  And I don't believe for a second that she would have skipped off to Highgarden, leaving Margaery alone in the literal and figurative lion's den.

Yeah, I really don't buy that Olenna couldn't have nixed the Lannister alliance completely if Marg's well-being was really her #1 concern, what we've seen of Mace does not support the idea that he could push the family into something the Queen of Thorns did not approve of. Maybe she did rightly question hitching their wagon to Renly and then Joffrey, but she chose to support Mace and Marg's social climbing ambitions just the same. Maybe she and Marg both underestimated Cersei's craziness but that was a huge mistake. And I definitely don't believe she was just tricked by LF into framing others for regicide, it makes more sense to think she let him direct things because she just didn't care as long as Joffrey was dead. What was really stopping her from asking him for a less violent poison and not administering it publicly?

 

As far as Ramsey could tell in his F*ed up brain, she consented, and told him things were to her satisfaction. Yes, she was hesitant, as any young bride would be. No, this was not a nice experience for her, but she also went into a den of vipers, as a wolf ready to undo the Bolton family. This wasn't going to be a walk in the park or a pleasant diplomatic mission.

Ramsay is a serial killer who has flayed to death dozens of men, hunted all his ex-lovers like animals, and was just told he only exists through violent rape, why would he care about Sansa's consent or satisfaction? He's not suddenly a gentleman just because he's no longer a bastard, if he were he wouldn't still be treating Theon the same way. He's a sadist who enjoys total domination. Do you think one unpleasant night is it and he'd never abuse Sansa further in the days to come? Marital rape not being a crime in Westeros doesn't mean Ramsay the psychopathic serial killer is any more normal than he would be in our world. I think the idea is more that feudal patriarchy allows guys like Ramsay to slip through the cracks, not that that behavior is tolerated and not considered abnormal. Are laws all that keep normal men from becoming serial killing rapists who geld other men and skin people to death? There are plenty of places where arranged marriages are still done today, and not all of them encourage abusive husbands. For a start, I'd think a normal guy would at least let her finish undressing just to get to see her naked. What normal guy doesn't want to see that? For contrast, Robert Baratheon once smacked Cersei in front of Ned, but his big sin on their wedding night was just being drunk and calling her the wrong name. Their wedding night sounded pathetic, but not violent and intentionally humiliating. I'd think Robert represents the norm far more than Ramsay. For that matter Sansa once consented to marry Joffrey and Marg consented even after the full lowdown from Sansa, yet I don't see anyone calling him normal. Joff has a much lower body count than Rams, and Ros's death by crossbow bolts was still better than being skinned to death or eaten alive by dogs. Sansa only learned of Ramsay's full history on the wedding day from Myranda, she didn't have time to get Brienne to stop the wedding even if she wanted to, but does anyone actually think she would have agreed to the match if Littlefinger had known the full scoop on Ramsay and hadn't abandoned her before she could find out the truth?

 

Furthermore, the idea that noblewomen are only seen as incubators in marriage really only applies to Walder Frey pumping out more kids than he could ever actually need. Sure, a childless marriage would be a failure but wives were also expected to run the castle's household, help hold down the fort when the husband wasn't at home, and help best represent the interests of their husband and children.  People are wondering why Marg can just be seized, but it's not like only queens have rights. The Great Houses are pretty much kings and queens when in their own regions, and then there's a hierarchy on down. Lysa Arryn was clearly unstable yet no one questioned her right to help her son rule, just as Cersei is "helping" hers. (And I loved having Cersei mention the character I think of as bizarro-Cersei.) If Sansa's parents or Robb had had a say in her marriage, it would be in her husband's best interest to form a lasting partnership by staying on their good side, noble girls aren't actually sold off like livestock leaving their family ties behind forever. Robert was king but he still let Cersei push him around and surround him with Lannisters because of who her father was, and he waited til Jaime skipped town to lose control and smack her in the face. Tywin threatened to force march Cersei down the aisle, but that's still a far cry from Viserys telling Dany he'd let any man or animal use her to get what he wanted. Vis was desperate and even more unstable than Lysa, Dany's marriage was not a normal one either, though her husband was just a regular raping warlord, not a guy who skinned to death at least 80 people and fed his ex-lovers to his dogs. 

[Paradigm14]

I've already said that Ramsey is not a nice guy.

Honestly, she got through her wedding night better than you had ANY reason to expect. He could have played a million ugly games with her, had Theon join in, beat her, cut her, etc. But nothing more happened than expected sex on her wedding night with a witness, that really, was required.

 

She'd gotten enough at the table with him and having Theon say what he said to know how nutty he was. She didn't need Myranda to make it clear that she might be harmed by him eventually. And they're the Boltons for goodness sakes, not the Umbers. They live at the Dreadfort as well as taking over Winterfell, his Dad killed her brother, and married into the Frey's who killed her mother and imprisoned her uncle.

The wife from that marriage sat across the table from her at dinner.

 

And her childhood friend Theon was living as a blithering idiot, afraid of Ramsey, in the kennel. She had a goal, and that's why she didn't try to leave sooner. 

[Holmbo]

"Honestly, she got through her wedding night better than you had ANY reason to expect. He could have played a million ugly games with her, had Theon join in, beat her, cut her, etc. But nothing more happened than expected sex on her wedding night with a witness, that really, was required."

 

We only saw the start of their wedding night. Anything could have happened next. I'm sure we're to assume that's all there was even though that would be OOC for Ramsay.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Holmbo

[Lady S.]

If you've been reading my posts, I've already said that Ramsey is not a nice guy,so PLEASE stop with the obvious. It's annoying.

 

Honestly, she got through her wedding night better than you had ANY reason to expect. He could have played a million ugly games with her, had Theon join in, beat her, cut her, etc. But nothing more happened than expected sex on her wedding night with a witness, that really, was required.

 

No, Theon staying was clearly unexpected. And expected and required consummation doesn't have to require bracing yourself for pain and looking terrified. I'm sure Ramsay has plenty of games in store for later is my point, so stop acting like this is just an endurable formality. Sansa doesn't any plan of action here, all she's done so far is sulk and act uncomfortable around Ramsay. Yes, I think it's ludicrous to believe any Bolton would be a fair husband, but that is the bill of goods Littlefinger sold her at Moat Cailin and in the crypts, that Ramsay could be charmed and manipulated. He cannot, so what the fuck is Sansa's plan supposed to be? Brienne's bat signal is no real way to leave in time, and Littlefinger has left her stranded, she's staying because she has nowhere to go yet, not because she has any concrete agenda, which we've seen no evidence of whatsoever. By your logic, no woman on this show was ever raped. Why didn't Gilly leave her father before meeting Sam? Why didn't the other wives leave Craster's after his death? Sansa has no more of a plan than they did, because Littlefinger's only instructions were useless and his back-up plan is just to wait for Stannis, which is not a plan of action either. Accepting her role as passive sitting duck does not make her not a victim, since she did the exact same thing with Joffrey.

[Paradigm14]

I'm NOT acting. If Sansa was not a virgin, and no one was willing to say she was, guess what? Sansa needs a dead Tyrion in order to marry Ramsey.

 

Theon HAD to be there. He was a noble from another house and YET he could be manipulated to say she was a virgin and therefore not married to Tyrion in case Sansa was lying. She had every reason to lie about it in order to win the protection of the Boltons. Reek would also be necessary to arrange the blood on her dress to fake her virginity in that case. It couldn't be Ramsey or people would talk. Reek doesn't talk to others really.

 

That's why the bedding ceremonies would happen, to make sure the marriage was made real. 

 

He took advantage of the opportunity to make them off-balance with it, but that's about it.

 

Of COURSE Sansa couldn't come to Winterfell to the killers of her family and play Pollyana. It would be too obvious she was up to something.

 

All Littlefinger sold her was the idea that he probably wasn't as bad as Roose. Saying that seems ludicrous to me, and I'm surprised Sansa bought it, but LF was all she had really.

[justawatcher]

I agree with Paradigm. Lady S, you are injecting not only a lot of 21st century morality into a  (ballpark) pre-Renaissance timed show, but also a lot of debatably feminist morality into a place where it isn't fully agreed with. Even in our day, I would likely disagree with you on some (some) of your definitions of rape. What comes across the keyboard from you is that your definition of a man raping a woman encompasses everything that doesn't start with quality foreplay on his part, hit the middle with multiple orgasms for her before moving on to the finale and then some cuddling and him cooking breakfast in the morning while doing the laundry.

 

The reality is that in modern Western culture, there are more than a few unenthusiastic marital couplings every night of the year. That doesn't make them rape. And back in the pre-Renaissance day? Yes, it was indeed common for nobility and royalty to have the bedding observed by both fathers and the priest to make sure she was a virgin. (There's some performance anxiety for you). And it was not necessarily a cultural requirement to make sure the wife found satisfaction. In some cultures, that was looked upon as a fallen woman (Lie Back and Think Of England) As well, we heard cries. Every woman reading this will tell you, the first time hurts. You could be amped up and ready to go, but it doesn't make the first time hurt any less. Not being a gentle lover does not equate to rape, nor does it equate to spousal abuse. It simply means she has a husband who is a lousy lay. Nothing more. Later, he very well may play sadistic games but not this time.

[Constantinople]

From their reactions, neither Sansa nor Theon expected Theon to remain in the room.

 

Bedding ceremonies have multiple witnesses.  A "bedding ceremony" with Theon as the sole witness is useless because Ramsay's pet dog has zero credibility.  As does Ramsay since someone who flays people for tax delinquency isn't above setting-up a fake witness.

 

Ramsay had Theon watch to further humiliate Sansa and Theon.

 

Because that's how Ramsay rolls.

[NoWillToResist]

If they turn off the food supplies people will ask "why?"  The answer will be because the High Sparrow has imprisoned Margaery for baring false witness before the gods.   Public Good Will is somthing House Tyrell has right now but if they start starving the Kingdom that won't last.

 

I'm not sure I agree there. Margaery is ADORED by the masses. I don't think Oleanna would even need to stop food supplies in order for the people to get pissed. But, if she did, equating lack of food with the Queen Mother's goon squad jailing the Queen would, IMO, put a great deal of pressure on the throne to get her released. Throw in that the goon squad has got rid of prostitutes and booze because of religion and I'm thinking the common man wouldn't give three fucks about Margaery bearing false witness before the gods.

 

Well, it's good to see you again even if it took such a painful plot point.

 

 

Aw, thanks! :)

 

 

She nonchalantly told Marg she knew Tyrion was innocent, then hopped out of town expecting him to die anyway, instead Oberyn,

 

Well, she also believed Cersei when she said that the charges against Loras would never go to trial, so maybe she figured that since there's no evidence against Tyrion, he'd be freed? Or that, as a Lannister, there'd be no punishment? Also, Oberyn totally could have (and would have) been victorious if he'd just shut the fuck up and stabbed. :)

 

By your logic, no woman on this show was ever raped.

 

I don't think anyone would say that no one on the show was ever raped but, considering the world in which this story is set, I'm pretty sure that there is no such thing as marital rape. Sure, NOW, no means no, but back then, if you got married, your husband owned your ass and could do with what he wanted, no? So, while bringing someone to watch isn't likely the norm, fucking an unwilling and unhappy wife likely was back then since most marriages were not based on mutual love/attraction. Men had no responsibility to be caring and solicitous to their wives on the wedding night. Some might try, but I suspect most were "meh, whatever. As long as I get off, it's all good, and hopefully I'll get an heir or two out of her."

[Paradigm14]

From their reactions, neither Sansa nor Theon expected Theon to remain in the room.

 

Bedding ceremonies have multiple witnesses.  A "bedding ceremony" with Theon as the sole witness is useless because Ramsay's pet dog has zero credibility.  As does Ramsay since someone who flays people for tax delinquency isn't above setting-up a fake witness.

 

Ramsay had Theon watch to further humiliate Sansa and Theon.

 

Because that's how Ramsay rolls.

I would buy that except for the fact that no one is going to investigate a noble very closely. Much like Moat Cailin, they'd ask him yes or no and be on their way. That's how the Sept would normally do things. "Oh, a noble says X, OK, no problem."

 

 

They won't ask him if he's afraid of Ramsey or if he's still a normal guy if he can fool them for 10 minutes. 

 

They need for the people of the house to think everything is normal. That means if she didn't bleed, they'd need proof on the dress/sheets in the morning. That's where the pet dog part would come in. He'd arrange  that overnight as "proof" for the staff, then no one asks any more questions. 

[NoWillToResist]

I would buy that except for the fact that no one is going to investigate a noble very closely. Much like Moat Cailin, they'd ask him yes or no and be on their way. That's how the Sept would normally do things. "Oh, a noble says X, OK, no problem."

 

Unless you're Loras. Then the word of a lowly squire is enough to indict you...  ;)

[Paradigm14]

Unless you're Loras. Then the word of a lowly squire is enough to indict you...  ;)

Yes, there's a new Sheriff/Sept in town. I wonder if any of the rest of our noble friends are ready for HIM!

[NoWillToResist]

Yes, there's a new Sheriff/Sept in town. I wonder if any of the rest of our noble friends are ready for HIM!

 

Here's a question: the religious zealots threw out all the booze. Will they confiscate Cersei's precious grape juice? Because surely they wouldn't allow HER to keep her evil fruit juice if others have to go without? Wouldn't that be *gasp* hypocritical to look the other way on HER sinful gluttony?

[paigow]

Here's a question: the religious zealots threw out all the booze.... 

The Sparrows going all "Untouchables" creates an environment ripe for a Sons of the Harpy style insurgency...Led by a KL version of Nucky Thompson. 

[Holmbo]

Here's a question: the religious zealots threw out all the booze. Will they confiscate Cersei's precious grape juice? Because surely they wouldn't allow HER to keep her evil fruit juice if others have to go without? Wouldn't that be *gasp* hypocritical to look the other way on HER sinful gluttony?

That's what will trip her! Here we were all worried about Lancel and the twincest but instead she'll be arrested for breaking the prohibition.

[Oscirus]

Unless you're Loras. Then the word of a lowly squire is enough to indict you...  ;)

 

To be fair, Tyrion was indicted and almost convicted for murder based solely on a knife that may or may not have been his. There weren't even any witnesses for that trial.

[One Tough Cookie]

The husband is watching this for the first time and me for maybe the 4th or 5th.

He has christened the Sand Snakes the Sand Fleas.  And he's right, they are as annoying as the bugs you swat away during a bar b q.

Its interesting to hear what he thinks will happen next episode and I really have to put my poker face on...he has no idea.  Cant wait for him to see Hard Home and Mothers Mercy.

[The Companion]

On 5/19/2015 at 10:31 PM, NoWillToResist said:

Sansa's off-screen cries will haunt me for a long time. *shudder*

 

I simply cannot take that trial seriously. "This dude says you were fucking. Well, that's all the evidence we need! Arrest him!" Like, seriously?

 

I need Olenna to go 2 for 2 on the Lannisters...

Not to defend the clearly terrible judicial system, but my understanding was that this was an inquest, and the evidence was enough for a trial. I think it is similar to a grand jury, which has a fairly low threshold. That being said, they had very tenuous evidence against Margaery. 

I am looking forward to what I can only hope will be an epic Cersei smack down. Lady Oleanna killed Joffrey preemptively before he did anything to her family. I can only imagine how this is going to go for Cersei, now that she has acted against two children. 

I did love how ridiculous Cersei looked trying to adopt her father's method of making people feel unimportant. She thought she would make Lady Oleanna feel small by continuing to write and instead she just looked like a kid playing dress up.

I wish we could just time jump with Arya. I don't care about the mysterious mystery house. It's just not interesting. 

Meanwhile in Winterfell, Sansa looked gorgeous. We finally get a wedding where nobody gets murdered (I guess other than Robb's) and it has to be this one? I think it would have been a bit ridiculous to have Sansa saved. That being said, it was a sad chapter in what has been a really rough story. I want to see her get revenge. 

I don't care about Theon. Being more likeable than Ramsey isn't enough. He betrayed Robb, killed two innocent boys so he could look tough, tortured the people of Winterfell and generally acted like a complete monster. I cannot bring myself to care about his arc. I want everyone but Sansa and The North Remembers lady in Winterfell to get dragonned.