S02.E20: Fugitive

[PinkRibbons]

NOTE: Reign airs on Wednesdays in Canada, meaning that the episodes are very often viewed a day before they have aired in the US. Therefore please be aware that this thread will almost definitely have spoilers for those who wish to wait until Thursday night to view the new episode.
 

Quote

Catherine grows jealous of Narcisse's bond with Lola, so she requests a demonstration of his loyalty. Meanwhile, Mary takes drastic measures to stop Francis from capturing Condé; and Greer makes a decision that jeopardizes her relationship with Leith.

 

Promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMoswpjw1Ko

[brisbydog]

I don't get it. Why is this show all about Conde? He is dragging the show down with his stupid plotlines and boring face.

Thank goodness for Narcisse, only bright spot left on the show is him and Catherine.

Less said about Kenna the better. Marriage is not forever on Reign for anybody. Waiting for Leith to hook up with Claude now I guess.

[Artsda]

I think it's just a matter of time for Leith and Claude.

 

Kenna, she should be one of Greers girls at this point, is her marriage even annulled yet? Who is this new man she's sleeping with when she wanted Conde's brother an episode ago? Why does she get to continue to live in court? I wish Francis would kick her out on behalf of his brother.

 

I liked Lola and Narcisse, he humanized him a bit like she said. 

Edited April 30, 2015 by Artsda

[Featherhat]

I’ve been thinking that Kenna should just go ahead and become a courtesan, using her notoriety as Henri’s (brief) mistress. The type where you have to be almost aristocratic to become one anyway which Greer is teaching her girls to emulate. Then she can have the attention, parties and pretty things she craves and move on when the man has to attend to other business, she can even get herself a nest egg like Greer is building. Her characterization has wondered all over the place but it seems the best fit for current Kenna and Greer has the contact with wealthy men who might be interested.

[dirtypop90]

Kenna, she should be one of Greers girls at this point, is her marriage even annulled yet? Who is this new man she's sleeping with when she wanted Conde's brother an episode ago? Why does she get to continue to live in court? I wish Francis would kick her out on behalf of his brother.

 

Francis won't kick his own wife out and let her mistress stay in his castle. I don't know what men during that time would allow this. hell, I don't know what men in 2015 would allow it. Way too unrealistic for these men to continue to protect their wives while they screw around. 

 

I hate that Greer is selling women but her s/l has been the only bright spot this season. 

 

 

 

I don't get it. Why is this show all about Conde? He is dragging the show down with his stupid plotlines and boring face.

 

Agreed! I want him dead, now. I wouldn't mind if Mary went down with him. I hope Catherine goes back to trying to take her out.

 

I hate what Narcisse did to Lola. Just icky. I don't know why the writers have thrown knives in each and every pairing.

 

And I don't know why they married these people - greer/castleroy, mary/francis, kenna/bash - just to have them sleep around

Edited April 30, 2015 by dirtypop90

[PinkRibbons]

I've never wanted to reach into my TV and slap Mary so hard as when she said, "My rank is poison". The problems isn't your rank, IT'S YOU AND YOUR FUCKING AWFUL CHOICES. THE COMMONALITY HERE IS NOT A MATTER OF REACHING BELOW YOUR RANK, IT'S THAT YOU ARE AN IMPULSIVE, SHORT-SIGHTED, SELFISH IDIOT.

 

*Whew* Having gotten that out of the way. At least I suppose we can commend the show on Mary's faithful-to-history characterization.

 

I thought Greer and Leith had one of the first truly adult conversations on this show since season 1. You could see both sides of the argument, and I don't feel like either is wrong. Greer has seen change aplenty and with Francis's probable death coming she's likely to be right. Leith has no standing with anyone but Francis, and Catherine won't keep him around as anything major -- she might get rid of him sooner if he does have an affair with Claude. Obviously we know Louis can't get the crown, but I'm betting he'll be behind Francis's eventual death (using his real illness to mask poisoning as just another attack of the same), and he wouldn't keep anyone close to Francis. I'm looking forward to Catherine getting her hands on Conde and fileting him. I love that Leith has such a perfect reaction to the idea of incurring Catherine's wrath over Claude's. Let's just hope that he isn't addicted to reaching above his station the way Mary reaches below.

 

(And btw, I thought Claude's blackmailing was laughable. Who's going to believe her about Leith stealing? The girl could tell any number of sworn truths and no one would believe her, especially her mother. She's a child who clearly enjoys getting herself and others into trouble.)

 

I agree there's something odd about how the show is focusing so hard on Conde. The writers can't be deaf and blind to fan reaction; he has been overwhelmingly disliked by viewers, and has been pretty much since he was introduced. If they're sticking to a season-long storyline they refuse to alter, fine, it's actually interesting to see Mary screw France through this awful affair. But they don't need to keep trying to make Conde likable with his stupid waffling over what to do. It doesn't make him look noble; it makes him look weak. It explains exactly why he would be a terrible king. Francis is so strong and firm in his ruling that in contrast that he makes Conde look all the worse. (Which reminds me, I really wish he had responded to Mary's "I was trying to save his life" with, "yeah, well ten guys just lost their lives by guarding him", and then going on to add how many more lives there would be lost.)

 

I don't have any bad feeling towards Kenna. Bash has already started visiting and presumably sleeping with Delphine; they both know the marriage is over. I liked the pairing a lot but I stopped rooting for it when it came out that Kenna wanted children and Bash didn't. That's something that's extremely hard to reconcile in a marriage. I sort of like Kenna being able to choose for herself what she wants out of a relationship.

[dirtypop90]

I don't have any bad feeling towards Kenna. Bash has already started visiting and presumably sleeping with Delphine; they both know the marriage is over. I liked the pairing a lot but I stopped rooting for it when it came out that Kenna wanted children and Bash didn't. That's something that's extremely hard to reconcile in a marriage. I sort of like Kenna being able to choose for herself what she wants out of a relationship.

 

My issue is more with the writing. Why marry these people to have them give up on their relationships so easy.

[Featherhat]

Mary has been warned over and over again what would happen to Conde when their affair was discovered, even by him. She repeatedly responded with "I demand you let me have an affair because he is the only thing that makes me better" over and over again with little thought about anything else. Yes she was in a terrible place but she was still insanely stupid. If this happened the same within a modern office or large family unit it probably wouldn't cause chaos in 3 counties but it could blow a lot of people's lives or jobs up. And that's without the treason plots. If they'd ever made it to Scotland they'd have been run out even faster than the real MQoS was, Francis's reign would have been in ruins and Mary would have blown any chance she ever had at the English throne, and there would possible have been more war than there was historically. I could believe that "it was all PTSD" if they hadn't been trying and failing to set them up as a couple since he was introduced. Everything about this plotline was a total bungle and not in the least entertaining unlike last year's crackfest.

I hope Elizabeth kicks her ass and perfects her "villain cackle" at Mary next season.

ETA

 

My issue is more with the writing. Why marry these people to have them give up on their relationships so easy.

Well the French court was always known as a licentious court where affairs happened often (France had the first woman to gain the title "Official Mistress" after all, and one of Mary's real life ladies had Henri's bastard son, and the Tudor era was bawdier than later centuries, it's not necessarily atypical to find characters married but having affairs, but the idea that they can all get annulments is stupid. If the girls get married off/ruined by a King early on it opens the door to late non marital sex, rather than them having to pretend to be virtuous. But mostly its CW plotting as usual I guess.

Castleroy was strange, in that he pressed for a show of love but didn't disclose his religious leanings to Greer before she made the decision, but since he's in prison for life I don't mind that she's moved on, although I hate Leith, but it would have been nice to see her boy free for a couple of episodes to mourn.

Mary had checked out even before the rape and continues to be an historically accurate idiot in relationships.

I'm annoyed that Bash/Kenna disintegrated before they'd even integrated though, it was an abrupt plot twist last season but intriguing and now its seemingly blown up with petty arguments.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Featherhat

[ulkis]

My issue is more with the writing. Why marry these people to have them give up on their relationships so easy.

 

Well, I get why they did it with Bash and Kenna, and Francis and Mary. But that's not even my issue either. They can give up on having a romantic relationship, but there shouldn't be any talk of annulment. Certainly not on Bash and Kenna's parts; maybe Francis might be able to finagle something for himself and Mary but it probably wouldn't look good if he tried to get his brother an annulment.

 

All this reminds me of the line from Ever After where the Queen tells that version of Henry II: "Choose wisely, Henry. Divorce is something they only do in England."

Edited May 1, 2015 by ulkis

[ulkis]

Awww, Leith is a cutie. I've paid him pretty much zero attention ever, but he won me over tonight standing up to Claude. I felt bad for him when Greer rejected his proposal but I don't blame her at all. Honestly, he should have seen that coming. Hope he gets over it and accepts it.

 

I loved Catherine's look of disgust at Renaude.

[Artsda]

 

Francis won't kick his own wife out and let her mistress stay in his castle. I don't know what men during that time would allow this. hell, I don't know what men in 2015 would allow it. Way too unrealistic for these men to continue to protect their wives while they screw around.

Not kicking Mary out is understandable, it's about politics and status in the monarchy. Lola is understandable as well since she's the mother of his child.

 

Kenna? No sense at all after how she's behaved with his brother. He should be kicking her out since she's only there as a tie to Mary at this point.

[dirtypop90]

i

 

Not kicking Mary out is understandable, it's about politics and status in the monarchy. Lola is understandable as well since she's the mother of his child.

 

Kenna? No sense at all after how she's behaved with his brother. He should be kicking her out since she's only there as a tie to Mary at this point.

 

It really isn't understandable. Everyone knows of mary and conde's affair. Narcisse/Catherine could use it to say any children she has are illegitimate. Scotland does nothing for france. Henry only made the match because of Mary's claim to the english throne, but Elizabeth has won that battle. Now, Mary has helped conde's escape, and Conde is coming for the french crown. So it's crazy Francis has not brought up an annulment yet. The pope would give him one for Mary's treason, and he could go to elizabeth and try to make a peace. Hell, since elizabeth is willing to marry conde if he becomes the king of france, she would likely consider marrying francis as well. In fact she considered marrying one of francis's little brother's in RL. And they could crush Mary together. The end.

 

If he won't turn against Mary after all she has done. I don't see why kenna's actions would anger him in the slightest. Plus, bash is likely sleeping with that nun.

Edited May 1, 2015 by dirtypop90

[HunterHunted]

I've never wanted to reach into my TV and slap Mary so hard as when she said, "My rank is poison". The problems isn't your rank, IT'S YOU AND YOUR FUCKING AWFUL CHOICES. THE COMMONALITY HERE IS NOT A MATTER OF REACHING BELOW YOUR RANK, IT'S THAT YOU ARE AN IMPULSIVE, SHORT-SIGHTED, SELFISH IDIOT.

 

*Whew* Having gotten that out of the way. At least I suppose we can commend the show on Mary's faithful-to-history characterization.

 

I thought Greer and Leith had one of the first truly adult conversations on this show since season 1. You could see both sides of the argument, and I don't feel like either is wrong. Greer has seen change aplenty and with Francis's probable death coming she's likely to be right. Leith has no standing with anyone but Francis, and Catherine won't keep him around as anything major -- she might get rid of him sooner if he does have an affair with Claude. Obviously we know Louis can't get the crown, but I'm betting he'll be behind Francis's eventual death (using his real illness to mask poisoning as just another attack of the same), and he wouldn't keep anyone close to Francis. I'm looking forward to Catherine getting her hands on Conde and fileting him. I love that Leith has such a perfect reaction to the idea of incurring Catherine's wrath over Claude's. Let's just hope that he isn't addicted to reaching above his station the way Mary reaches below.

 

I agree there's something odd about how the show is focusing so hard on Conde. The writers can't be deaf and blind to fan reaction; he has been overwhelmingly disliked by viewers, and has been pretty much since he was introduced. If they're sticking to a season-long storyline they refuse to alter, fine, it's actually interesting to see Mary screw France through this awful affair. But they don't need to keep trying to make Conde likable with his stupid waffling over what to do. It doesn't make him look noble; it makes him look weak. It explains exactly why he would be a terrible king. Francis is so strong and firm in his ruling that in contrast that he makes Conde look all the worse. (Which reminds me, I really wish he had responded to Mary's "I was trying to save his life" with, "yeah, well ten guys just lost their lives by guarding him", and then going on to add how many more lives there would be lost.)

Mary really is an idiot. I was hoping for an eye roll from Bash as she was boo hooing about her rank. Her affair and its aftermath have done disastrous things for France and Scotland.

And I loved Greer's pragmatism. I'm hoping that the show was intentionally contrasting Greer and Mary. Mary follows her heart and screws up 3 countries and people die. Greer follows her head and 2 people have their hearts broken.

[LolaRuns]

 

he could go to elizabeth and try to make a peace.

 

Well there is still the whole catholic/protestant issue. 

[dirtypop90]

Well there is still the whole catholic/protestant issue. 

 

In would help bring peace, in RL Elizabeth considered marrying his little brother, who was also Catholic, but ultimately decided not to marry. I would not be surprised if the writers take from history and tease Elizabeth/Francis to make Mary squirm.

Edited May 1, 2015 by dirtypop90

[t7686]

I feel bad for Leith. Rich, poor, madame. Either way Greer still won't pick him. Not that she was wrong, I liked her argument and it made sense but damn, poor dude. I did like him standing up to Claude. I really hope they don't pair off though, she's horrible.

 

All the women on this show seem to be standing up for what they want or in Mary's case, what she thinks she wants in any fleeting second, but it just seems so anachronistic. The men are weak and come back time and time again to the women no matter what they do. Girl power is great and all but I'm not sure how realistic all this is in the 1500s. Plus all the talk of annulments and divorces. Ugh! You're Catholic, remember that. Then add in the 21st century ideas about "finding oneself" and whatnot and I'm completely annoyed. I'm not saying it has to be a documentary but at least pretend to be in the time period a bit. They were doing a good job of this last season, let's go back to that.

 

I will say I love how overall they are painting a realistic portrait of the real Mary and her idiocy with men, politics etc. I can completely see why she meets the gruesome fate that she does.

Edited May 1, 2015 by t7686

[PinkRibbons]

Regarding Kenna and Bash's annulment: didn't the King of Navarre say all they needed was a judge's approval since the marriage was performed under such duress? They might not need to go to The Pope in their case. Than again, Navarre was full of bullshit, so who knows if he was right?

 

I do seem to remember seeing a documentary about the times that said a marriage had to be agreed to by both parties. Obviously a lot of women felt pressured into accepting, but probably not with a sword at their backs. So possibly the dissolution of their marriage might be something that can be done without going to Rome. Goodness knows there were enough witnesses to testify that the couple was under duress.

[Andromeda]

I've never wanted to reach into my TV and slap Mary so hard as when she said, "My rank is poison". The problems isn't your rank, IT'S YOU AND YOUR FUCKING AWFUL CHOICES. THE COMMONALITY HERE IS NOT A MATTER OF REACHING BELOW YOUR RANK, IT'S THAT YOU ARE AN IMPULSIVE, SHORT-SIGHTED, SELFISH IDIOT.

I know! It's not like she became queen yesterday -- she was born to it! The fact that her relationships with men (and others, but she doesn't seem to care about anything but men) are constrained because she's Queen should come as no surprise to her! And Big F'in Deal that she can't have relationships like other women -- neither can many of those other women of her time -- just look around at your ladies, you twit. But unlike them, she gets to be Queen! Gawd, I hate her so much.

It really isn't understandable. Everyone knows of mary and conde's affair. Narcisse/Catherine could use it to say any children she has are illegitimate. Scotland does nothing for france. Henry only made the match because of Mary's claim to the english throne, but Elizabeth has won that battle. Now, Mary has helped conde's escape, and Conde is coming for the french crown. So it's crazy Francis has not brought up an annulment yet. The pope would give him one for Mary's treason, and he could go to elizabeth and try to make a peace. Hell, since elizabeth is willing to marry conde if he becomes the king of france, she would likely consider marrying francis as well. In fact she considered marrying one of francis's little brother's in RL. And they could crush Mary together. The end.

 

If he won't turn against Mary after all she has done. I don't see why kenna's actions would anger him in the slightest. Plus, bash is likely sleeping with that nun.

Mary has outright committed treason -- and not just because she cheated on the king with her marriage vows. She plotted against the crown. There would be no talk of annulment if the facts were known. She would be losing her head!

 

Girl power is great and all but I'm not sure how realistic all this is in the 1500s. Plus all the talk of annulments and divorces. Ugh! You're Catholic, remember that. Then add in the 21st century ideas about "finding oneself" and whatnot and I'm completely annoyed.

Not in the least realistic. The women act like they're dating in the 21st century, bouncing from relationship to relationship -- Sex in the Elizabethan City. It's ridiculous. And none of them ever remember they're Catholic, where divorce doesn't happen and annulments are very rare -- apparently not the way they bandy the terms about. They also forget that England just suffered through a major upheaval when its head of state tried to force Rome to give him an annulment. That's why there was any thought that Mary Stuart was the rightful heir, because Elizabeth is Anne Boleyn's daughter, and illegitimate in the church's eyes. Marriage is serious business in that day and age, iron-clad contracts -- and they're treating it like all that matters is a girl being happy in her relationship, self-actualizing, finding herself. So very silly.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Andromeda

[scarletregina]

I am so confused about Kenna and Bash. It seems like she woke up on morning and decided she didn't love him anymore. Is that what happened or did I miss an entire storyline?

 

I know Conde's brother tried to seduce her, but I thought she was head over heels with Bash. What happened?

 

Mary is tiresome and I want this show to be about Greer "reigning" over her brothel.

 

 

[Andromeda]

I am so confused about Kenna and Bash. It seems like she woke up on morning and decided she didn't love him anymore. Is that what happened or did I miss an entire storyline?

 

I know Conde's brother tried to seduce her, but I thought she was head over heels with Bash. What happened?

 

Mary is tiresome and I want this show to be about Greer "reigning" over her brothel.

Well, there was the classic misunderstanding -- Bash thought Kenna was encouraging the guy more than she was. There was a mix-up where she was on the prom decorating committee, and unable to meet with Bash before the big night because no one else could arrange the flowers just right over at Conde Nast's brother's house. So she didn't go home and he didn't find her there. Lacking cell phones, she relied on Conde's brother to tell him why she was running late. You can guess how well that went. So Bash was cooling his heels at home after a hard day's work riding around the countryside looking for bandits, and wondering where she was. He was put out that she wasn't there like she promised, and he wasn't able to escort her to the prom like a proper date (husband) should. Then they fought, and he accused her of liking Conde's bro, and she admitted she wanted more out of life, so they broke up, because that's so realistic. The guy is ONLY the sheriff and the brother of the KING, but apparently he's unable to keep Kenna in the style to which she's become accustomed. 

[scarletregina]

Well, there was the classic misunderstanding -- Bash thought Kenna was encouraging the guy more than she was. There was a mix-up where she was on the prom decorating committee, and unable to meet with Bash before the big night because no one else could arrange the flowers just right over at Conde Nast's brother's house. So she didn't go home and he didn't find her there. Lacking cell phones, she relied on Conde's brother to tell him why she was running late. You can guess how well that went. So Bash was cooling his heels at home after a hard day's work riding around the countryside looking for bandits, and wondering where she was. He was put out that she wasn't there like she promised, and he wasn't able to escort her to the prom like a proper date (husband) should. Then they fought, and he accused her of liking Conde's bro, and she admitted she wanted more out of life, so they broke up, because that's so realistic. The guy is ONLY the sheriff and the brother of the KING, but apparently he's unable to keep Kenna in the style to which she's become accustomed. 

 

I got the whole "hijinks ensue" bit from the party, but I don't get why that = divorce. But this is the CW, so.... 

 

And yeah, how is Kenna not living in style? Doesn't she live in the castle with the former king's favorite son?

 

I'm disappointed because Kenna & Bash's marriage seemed like it was real. It was built on friendship, mutual respect and eventually love.... er, at least I thought it was. 

[Morrigan2575]

Well, there was the classic misunderstanding -- Bash thought Kenna was encouraging the guy more than she was. There was a mix-up where she was on the prom decorating committee, and unable to meet with Bash before the big night because no one else could arrange the flowers just right over at Conde Nast's brother's house. So she didn't go home and he didn't find her there. Lacking cell phones, she relied on Conde's brother to tell him why she was running late. You can guess how well that went. So Bash was cooling his heels at home after a hard day's work riding around the countryside looking for bandits, and wondering where she was. He was put out that she wasn't there like she promised, and he wasn't able to escort her to the prom like a proper date (husband) should. Then they fought, and he accused her of liking Conde's bro, and she admitted she wanted more out of life, so they broke up, because that's so realistic. The guy is ONLY the sheriff and the brother of the KING, but apparently he's unable to keep Kenna in the style to which she's become accustomed. 

Thanks for the explanation, I don't watch regularly but i do remember the party and how Conde's brother was messing around with Kenna/Bash.  I also remember scenes from around the same time where Kenna was upset because Bash was constantly running off on business and couldn't be bothered to spend anytime with her.  I figured these were just normal growing pains/drama/angst.  I was surprised when I came back a few episodes later and they were total splitsville and acting as if they broke up 5 years ago.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Andromeda]

Thanks for the explanation, I don't watch regularly but i do remember the party and how Conde's brother was messing around with Kenna/Bash.  I also remember scenes from around the same time where Kenna was upset because Bash was constantly running off on business and couldn't be bothered to spend anytime with her.  I figured these were just normal growing pains/drama/angst.  I was surprised when I came back a few episodes later and they were total splitsville and acting as if they broke up 5 years ago.

It was really sudden. One fight or serious disagreement, and they tossed their relationship out the window like yesterday's trash. It was depressing after we'd enjoyed seeing their relationship flourish. And it really made them seem immature -- which is why I keep comparing the relationships on this show to high schoolers. Maybe middle schoolers would be more accurate -- most high schoolers would at least try a little harder to make the relationship work!

Edited May 8, 2015 by Andromeda

[Featherhat]

Yeah it was weird, a couple of arguments and they were done and acting like they were a modern couple filing an easy "irreconcilable differences" after a few months.

IRL going from King's bastard brother/"deputy" whom he loves to random general who just showed up is a come down, especially as he would have had way nicer rooms on offer if he had asked. And in history nobles lined up to marry acknowledged bastards. Ok Bash apparently doesn't want any trappings and spends the majority of his time in the woods, but she could work on that much more effectively as Bash's wife rather an the General's wife, before even getting to the treason. And Bash can compromise on a better suite to make her happy with a click of his fingers. It feels like half the scenes have been cut or their argument should have been about something more substantial. Because after successfully transitioning Kenna into a reasonable character, they've reverted to her being a shallow idiot again.

[Andromeda]

Yeah it was weird, a couple of arguments and they were done and acting like they were a modern couple filing an easy "irreconcilable differences" after a few months.

IRL going from King's bastard brother/"deputy" whom he loves to random general who just showed up is a come down, especially as he would have had way nicer rooms on offer if he had asked. And in history nobles lined up to marry acknowledged bastards. Ok Bash apparently doesn't want any trappings and spends the majority of his time in the woods, but she could work on that much more effectively as Bash's wife rather an the General's wife, before even getting to the treason. And Bash can compromise on a better suite to make her happy with a click of his fingers. It feels like half the scenes have been cut or their argument should have been about something more substantial. Because after successfully transitioning Kenna into a reasonable character, they've reverted to her being a shallow idiot again.

Plus, I realized after last night's episode that the general was a mercenary. He had no standing at all -- he might not even have been a noble. Kenna is insane.

Mary and Kenna seem to expect ridiculous things from their relationships that their significant others are unable to provide. Mary expects Francis to bend over backward for her every whim and desire, despite the fact he's the frikkin' KING. Kenna can't manage to entertain herself for an afternoon because her husband has a high-level career, so she goes looking for something better.

After she and Bash connected and had a great sex life (I think even shared "I love yous"), considering it was an arranged marriage she ought to be counting her lucky stars.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Andromeda

[ulkis]

They did, in last season's finale.