S05.E03: High Sparrow

[kcbuckeye2]

From my point of view, what caused Tyrion to be reluctant was when she grabbed his hand, he could see the, for lack of a better word, shackle on her wrist.  Even seeing the teardrop on her face, I think it really hit him when he saw her wrist, and he finally realized that she truly was a slave. 

 

Or not...I have been wrong before.

[Dev F]

From my point of view, what caused Tyrion to be reluctant was when she grabbed his hand, he could see the, for lack of a better word, shackle on her wrist.  Even seeing the teardrop on her face, I think it really hit him when he saw her wrist, and he finally realized that she truly was a slave.

 

But if he found himself only reluctant to have sex with slaves, he'd have no reason to say, "I hope it passes. What will I do in my spare time?" -- because all he'd have to do is find non-slave prostitutes like he'd always done up to that point.

[Hecate7]

So that puts Tommen in the 11-14 age range. And since Marg was aged up to be in her early twenties, that whole scene gave off a super creepy statutory rape vibe to me.

I hate the Sansa/Ramsay storyline. I think it could be okay if they avoid the violence against Sansa but at this point in time, I just don't have faith in the writers anymore and I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

Statutory rape, by definition, is rape only because of statutes dictating when a person comes of age. The age of consent in Westeros, for girls, is after the first menstrual period, and for boys, whenever he begins to want sex. A boy is old enough to be considered an adult when he is 15, but he is marriageable before then.

 

Basically, there is no such thing as statutory rape in Westeros. A consenting boy or girl, regardless of age, would be considered to have consented. There isn't really an age at which society or the law says, "now you are capable of consent, which you weren't before." In Westeros, rape is when someone holds you down and forces you, no matter what your age is. And if they didn't, then it wasn't rape, no matter what your age is.

 

Fortunately, Tommen does not feel violated. He is not at all upset about this. Life is short and frankly I would rather he get to have a little fun before getting killed off. Most characters in this world are going to just die in awful ways. For Tommen to have a little happiness first is great--it's better than some characters get.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

Fortunately, Tommen does not feel violated. He is not at all upset about this. Life is short and frankly I would rather he get to have a little fun before getting killed off. Most characters in this world are going to just die in awful ways. For Tommen to have a little happiness first is great--it's better than some characters get.

I think this is the main point for me, I agree with this. We know what's in the prophecy and the fact that they've bothered to include this prophecy and the flashback for it tells me that it's going to come true. I'd like to be wrong but I think poor Myrcella and Tommen are doomed so, I'm pulling for both of them to find whatever happiness they can since both seem like they're good people at the end of the day. 

Edited April 30, 2015 by Avaleigh

[beowoof]

Statutory rape, by definition, is rape only because of statutes dictating when a person comes of age. The age of consent in Westeros, for girls, is after the first menstrual period, and for boys, whenever he begins to want sex. A boy is old enough to be considered an adult when he is 15, but he is marriageable before then.

Basically, there is no such thing as statutory rape in Westeros. A consenting boy or girl, regardless of age, would be considered to have consented. There isn't really an age at which society or the law says, "now you are capable of consent, which you weren't before." In Westeros, rape is when someone holds you down and forces you, no matter what your age is. And if they didn't, then it wasn't rape, no matter what your age is.

Fortunately, Tommen does not feel violated. He is not at all upset about this. Life is short and frankly I would rather he get to have a little fun before getting killed off. Most characters in this world are going to just die in awful ways. For Tommen to have a little happiness first is great--it's better than some characters get.

I fully understand that standards in Westeros are different and that the characters involved don't think they've done anything wrong. I don't care. I'm not okay with a 12 year old having sex. I'm especially not okay with a 12 year old having sex with a 20 year old who has no real feelings for him and is using and manipulating him for personal gain. If Tommen understood that Marg was using him like a pawn, he wouldn't be happy about it. But he's too immature to tell, and that's a sign he's too immature to consent to sex.

I wasn't okay with Dany and Drogo having sex either. But that was in the books and I was expecting it. This wasn't in the books. They didn't have to put it in. They had other options and they went with the creepy rapey one. And I don't care if it makes sense in universe. They should have known modern audiences would have an issue with it and they should have done something else.

[Holmbo]

But if he found himself only reluctant to have sex with slaves, he'd have no reason to say, "I hope it passes. What will I do in my spare time?" -- because all he'd have to do is find non-slave prostitutes like he'd always done up to that point.

Yes I think it was just to show him kinda recoiling from having any kind of intimacy with prostitutes. I wish they would have done more with the scene but I'm not sure what. Maybe him having a stronger reaction.

I've liked what they done with Tyrion so far showing him being self destructive and whiny without making it to unbearable. His childishness towards Varys sort of reminded me of his interactions with Griff and I think it could be viewed as a reaction to killing his father.

I think what I'm missing is more guilt about Shae. But I'm not sure cause that whole story was so messy that I don't know what those involved in it is supposed to have felt. I'm just glad the character is gone.

[Advance35]

I think this is the main point for me, I agree with this. We know what's in the prophecy and the fact that they've bothered to include this prophecy and the flashback for it tells me that it's going to come true. I'd like to be wrong but I think poor Myrcella and Tommen are doomed so, I'm pulling for both of them to find whatever happiness they can since both seem like they're good people at the end of the day.

 

I don't mind this turn in the story because I think it does something that's been lacking in the tv version of the story and that's showing that House Tyrell wan'ts control of the Iron Throne and they will stoop to ANYTHING in order to get it.    Scheme to marry a Baratheon (Renly), Join up with House Lannister giving them provisions and men to crush the North and House Stark (Margaery's speech about how the war has come to a JUST end), poisoning an in-law relative and framing another in-law and his wife (Tyrion and Sansa).   Nothing House Tyrell pulls can shock me.   I consider them to be very charismatic and relatable VILLAINS.

 

And Margaery's behavior didn't shock me in the least in her Cersei encounter.  Now that she has the upperhand she shows her mean-girl claws. Even In the book as soon as things didn't go the way she wanted with Sansa made sure Sansa was cut off from all of the companionship she reintroduced, that's a mean girl in my view.   That and I think House Tyrell only had hesitance in regards to Twyin.   Now that he's gone I think they are willing to declare open season on House Lannister in terms of Courtly War.

[Maximum Taco]

I fully understand that standards in Westeros are different and that the characters involved don't think they've done anything wrong. I don't care. I'm not okay with a 12 year old having sex. I'm especially not okay with a 12 year old having sex with a 20 year old who has no real feelings for him and is using and manipulating him for personal gain. If Tommen understood that Marg was using him like a pawn, he wouldn't be happy about it. But he's too immature to tell, and that's a sign he's too immature to consent to sex.

I wasn't okay with Dany and Drogo having sex either. But that was in the books and I was expecting it. This wasn't in the books. They didn't have to put it in. They had other options and they went with the creepy rapey one. And I don't care if it makes sense in universe. They should have known modern audiences would have an issue with it and they should have done something else.

 

I'm sure they are perfectly aware that some people would have issues with that scene, the same way I'm sure they knew people would have issues with Cersei and Jaime's romance, or the rape in the sept, or Theon's prolonged mutilation and torture at the hands of Ramsay.

 

I mean how bad is the statutory rape compared to the actual rape, or incest, or mutilation that has already taken place on the show? Is that other stuff alright to show just because those events were also in the books? Isn't that a bit of a double standard? That they are allowed to show the events that GRRM invented but not allowed to invent their own?

 

The fact is it's an objectionable show on a subscription channel that is very earnest about the fact that it contains disturbing content. It's the double edged sword that is HBO content, the creators get to show pretty much whatever they want, but that also means they care a lot less how people will react.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[SilverShadow]

I agree by real world standards Margaery is essentially the same as a teacher who sleeps with her middle school aged student and it would emphatically be not okay.

 

By Westeros standards it's one of the least damaging relationships on the show. I think, in general, Margaery tries to be a good person when the situation allows, and she does have some empathy for Tommen. In Season 4 she backed off the sultry routine when she could see he wasn't ready and left him with a kiss on the forehead. But now that they're actually married, with Stannis still out there, and Dany in Mereen, the best way to secure the legitimacy of the 'Baratheon'-Lannister/Tyrell dynasty is consummate the marriage and to give birth to an heir as soon as possible.

 

As we saw with Sansa, in the show verse, no consummation means the marriage isn't valid. It would also be very damaging for both her and Tommen's reputation. 'The king doesn't know where to stick it' and/or 'underneath her gowns Margaery is secretly repulsive' is not a message anyone in that camp wants sent throughout the land. The singers would take that up in a heartbeat. And though we didn't see it, presumably there was a bedding.

 

Trying to get Tommen sperated from Cersei and on her side is just smart. Cersei's made it clear on numerous occasions that she hates Margaery and wants her gone. Way back in Season 1 Renly tried to convince Ned of the importance of getting then-heir Joffrey out of his mother's control and into theirs. And we saw how refusing to consider that ended for Ned.

 

IMO Margaery's reasons for going along are 100% practical and carefully planned moves in the Game of Thrones. Connsumating the marriage is politically essential and It would be incredibly stupid to not try and ensure Tommen's loyalty and pry him from Cersei's clutches, but I don't think she has any ill will or malice toward him. I could even see her trying to coach him into being a better king and leader. Not that she wouldn't put her interests over his if push comes to shove, but of the kinds of brides he could have ended up with, it's probbaly for the best. A totally submissive and ignorant bride a la very early Sansa would mean they'd both end up pawns of other people, and someone more agressive might actually hurt him or try and browbeat him into following her wishes in more direct ways.

Edited May 1, 2015 by SilverShadow

[Knuckles]

Nothing House Tyrell pulls can shock me.

 

Not so much House Tyrell, as Lady Olenna and her protege Margaery. Mace is nobody's idea of a shrewd player, but as genial dummy and front man, he has his uses. Makes the Tyrells look much less threatening.  

Olenna and Margery prompted Sansa's opinion of Joffrey, promising her safety in return for info.

They of course had no problem setting her up, along with Tyrion, as poisoners who committed regicide. Both Tyrells are utterly cold blooded and ruthless. Cersei may want Littlefinger back in KL for whatever reason, but it is Olenna who made the deal with him to kill Joffrey. As they say, two can keep a secret as long as one of them is dead, and my guess is that Olenna, once she hears that Littlefinger is with the Boltons, is going to want Baelish dead. Very dead.

[Calamity Jane]

I'm sure they are perfectly aware that some people would have issues with that scene, the same way I'm sure they knew people would have issues with Cersei and Jaime's romance, or the rape in the sept, or Theon's prolonged mutilation and torture at the hands of Ramsay.

 

I mean how bad is the statutory rape compared to the actual rape, or incest, or mutilation that has already taken place on the show? Is that other stuff alright to show just because those events were also in the books? Isn't that a bit of a double standard? That they are allowed to show the events that GRRM invented but not allowed to invent their own?

 

The fact is it's an objectionable show on a subscription channel that is very earnest about the fact that it contains disturbing content. It's the double edged sword that is HBO content, the creators get to show pretty much whatever they want, but that also means they care a lot less how people will react.

This story is supposedly based on the Wars of the Roses, in which era  marriages of disparate ages were quite common, so there's that, too.  Bringing a 21st century sensibility to these things simply does not make sense to me.  There is SO much going on that would cause horrendous outcry in our times!  Flaying, mutilating, violent rape, very young men sent off to lead troops to war, much older men marrying very young women against their will -- and on and on and on.  This situation was well within the parameters of what is acceptable in that "universe," and I find it much less objectionable than much of the other stuff.  I realize not everyone agrees, just my own opinion.  

[SilverShadow]

They of course had no problem setting her up, along with Tyrion, as poisoners who committed regicide. Both Tyrells are utterly cold blooded and ruthless.

 

In the show universe Margaery was not part of the poisoning plan. She only found out after the fact. Which isn't to say she'd have balked, just that we don't know one way or the other. In the books, it's implied they were actually hoping to blame Oberon, since he has a famous reputation for using poison, and crippled Marg and Lora's brother Willas in a tourney.

 

It's also worth mentioning that Littlefinger was heavily involved in the plan in both cases, and he'd have every reason to want to make Sansa feel scared and desperate, so she has no choice but to trust him. In the books, I think the Tyrells knew Sansa was carrying the poison, but probably didn't expect her and Tyrion to be framed, and Littlefinger's objective was for just that to happen behind their backs. In the show Olenna and Littlefinger probably mutually agreed to allow Sansa to be suspected as an accomplice, but didn't want her caught.

 

Of course for all that I don't really disagree with the ruthless part. I think they try to avoid killing when they can, for sheer practicality and PR reasons, but if it has to happen, it has to happen.

[Hecate7]

I agree by real world standards Margaery is essentially the same as a teacher who sleeps with her middle school aged student and it would emphatically be not okay.

 

There is no comparison. The teacher who sleeps with her student is in a position of authority over him. She can raise or lower his grades. She can report his infractions to the principal or his parents, or...not. She is charged with his safety and his education and she is in a position of trust to act in a quasi-parental role.

 

NONE of this is true of Margaery. Moreover, the teacher who sleeps with her student is breaking the law, she is breaking school rules, and she is violating a trust. Again, NONE of this is true of Margaery. The teacher is supposed to be preparing her students for life. Tommen is not preparing for life. Tommen is in life. This is his wife and he is perfectly happy about that. Who were his other choices? Shireen Baratheon: his own age, supposedly his cousin, but the greyscale is a bit of a turnoff. They'd be very compatible but he wouldn't be attracted to her--a miserable marriage ensues. Or Arya Stark? She'd chew him up and spit him out again. She'd have no respect for him and she'd make him miserable. Asha Greyjoy? Worse and worse. Sansa? Forget it---a Lannister's a Lannister. She'd kill him.

This is the best princess for him.

[SilverShadow]

There is no comparison. The teacher who sleeps with her student is in a position of authority over him. She can raise or lower his grades. She can report his infractions to the principal or his parents, or...not. She is charged with his safety and his education and she is in a position of trust to act in a quasi-parental role.

 

NONE of this is true of Margaery. [...]

 

If you've read the rest of my post you've seen that I agree with a lot of your points. Westeros is not the real world.

Edited May 2, 2015 by SilverShadow

[JustaPerson]

According to the Game of Thrones Wiki (there's a separate one for the books called a wiki of ice and fire) Tommen is around 18 in season 5 

[Holmbo]

According to the Game of Thrones Wiki (there's a separate one for the books called a wiki of ice and fire) Tommen is around 18 in season 5

That sounds absolutely ridiculous.

[SilverShadow]

I wonder if they're basing it off the actor's age? But yeah, unless there's a conclusive source, I'm not buying it.

[Independent George]

That sounds absolutely ridiculous.

 

It is absolutely ridiculous, but might also absolutely necessary to consolidate approximately 1,200 pages of text into 1.5 seasons so that the rest of the cast is still approximately the same age. Just handwave it. 

[Dev F]

There's no reason to handwave it, though, since the wiki is not an official source and there's no reason to assume that Tommen hasn't aged at the same rate as the other kids on the show and is now about twelve years old.

EDITED TO ADD: The wiki seems to be basing its extravagant assumption on the notion that Tommen would have to be at the age of majority in order to wed, but that's not actually the case. Even in the books, Joffrey is married at age thirteen and is expected to consummate the union.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Dev F

[Featherhat]

Tommen doesn't remotely look 12 though, even if he is youngish mentally. Lowest I could place the actor is about 14. I'm personally going with SORAS.

[Dev F]

Tommen doesn't remotely look 12 though, even if he is youngish mentally. Lowest I could place the actor is about 14. I'm personally going with SORAS.

 

Me, I think it requires less suspension of disbelief to assume that Tommen is a couple years younger than he looks than that he magically got a couple years older in between seasons. Especially since casting older actors in younger roles is a well-established practice not just for TV in general but for this show in particular. I mean, it's not like Robb, Jon, and Daenerys looked like they were seventeen when they were introduced back in season 1.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Dev F

[ambi76]

I agree Dev F and Dean-Charles Chapman at least considers Tommen to be around twelve years old and plays him like that as he said in a recent interview. The retconning to 18 in the GOT-Wiki is a really panic-ky reaction to the "consumation scene" in this episode IMHO.

 

Once I had to fight for half a day with an editor over there about it being impossible for Dany to be younger than Joffrey. They had them listed as Dany 18 and Joffrey 19 in season 4 and the man wouldn't yield until the very end, so yeah, I'm not taking the GOT-Wiki ages seriously at all.

[seacliffsal]

I, too, wouldn't trust the wiki info as most people don't seem to realize that historically people were married/joined at much younger ages and especially royalty.  Whether married or promised it was usually quite young.  Even today in various parts of the world children are married quite young.

[Hecate7]

Since premarital sex, masturbation, and any sort of experimentation before marriage was looked upon with horror, and in some cultures considered an open invitation to demonic possession, marriage was accomplished as young as possible. In parts of the world where people marry extremely young, one will often still find those superstitions alive and well.

[lampshades]

Since premarital sex, masturbation, and any sort of experimentation before marriage was looked upon with horror, and in some cultures considered an open invitation to demonic possession, marriage was accomplished as young as possible. In parts of the world where people marry extremely young, one will often still find those superstitions alive and well.

 

This isn't all that true - a number of factors seem to have affected the age of first marriage at various points in history across all cultures. For example, the age of first marriage in England was possibly higher during parts of the 17th century than it was in 1950. The age of first marriage in the USA was also much younger in 1970 than in 1890 which you wouldn't expect if it was all based on cultural mores.

Edited May 4, 2015 by lampshades

[Hecate7]

This isn't all that true - a number of factors seem to have affected the age of first marriage at various points in history across all cultures. For example, the age of first marriage in England was possibly higher during parts of the 17th century than it was in 1950. The age of first marriage in the USA was also much younger in 1970 than in 1890 which you wouldn't expect if it was all based on cultural mores.

 

Yes, marital age in general is affected by a variety of factors. The ability to make a home without one's parents, for instance, has proved a key factor in the US. People have historically married younger during more prosperous times, and waited longer during leaner ones. There are religious factors, too, however.

 

Progress does not march in a straight line. The age of first marriage in England for MEN during the seventeenth century was somewhat higher than it was in 1950, and I don't think you could say that at that time people worried about succubi stealing men's essence in either era. However, in the seventeenth century it was quite common for girls to marry at age 15. They were expected to be virgins. Men, who often married for the first time at thirty or older, were not. I don't think in 1950 people were marrying much younger than age 15, in England.

 

If, however, you were to look at specific communities that allowed marriage at ages 13 and under, you would find in general that the beliefs lined up with what I have described.

[lampshades]

Progress does not march in a straight line. The age of first marriage in England for MEN during the seventeenth century was somewhat higher than it was in 1950, and I don't think you could say that at that time people worried about succubi stealing men's essence in either era. However, in the seventeenth century it was quite common for girls to marry at age 15. They were expected to be virgins. Men, who often married for the first time at thirty or older, were not. I don't think in 1950 people were marrying much younger than age 15, in England.

 

If this article , and a number of other scholarly works, is to be believed - it wasn't just men who were marrying slightly older in England during the seventeenth century.

Edited May 4, 2015 by lampshades

[Hecate7]

 

If this article , and a number of other scholarly works, is to be believed - it wasn't just men who were marrying slightly older in England during the seventeenth century.

 

Shepshed, Leicestershire isn't all of England. In fact it was a very tiny village. Poverty often raises marital age, So does war, as young people are often separated until it is over. The 17th Century in England was troubled with civil war and a number of other peculiar social developments. But in the 16th century, marrying at 15 was quite normal for girls. Marrying at 20 in the 18th and 19th centuries meant a girl had narrowly escaped spinsterhood, and at 24 she was a spinster, even in the early 20th century. 28 was average in the Depression, but nobody knew it. So the average woman married after a few years of thinking it would never happen. Even in places where 28 was average for a bride, no one ever considered it normal, but rather a sad situation caused by the war or the Depression or, more commonly, they unfairly blamed the bride for playing hard to get or the groom for making her wait until well past her "expiration date" to marry.

 

My point, though wasn't about what causes people to wait til age 28, but rather what causes them to marry at ages 9-15. It is generally a horror of premarital sex and a variety of religious superstitions.

[John Potts]

Was NOT expecting Tommen to consumate his marriage so soon (he's what - 8 in the Books?). And no, even the (I guess?) teenage Tommen doing the deed with Margery didn't bother me - at least it was consensual.
Love that passive aggressive dialogue between Margery & Cersei. At least Cersei is learning that "I hate you!" is not always the best strategy. Though Margery should be wary of a wounded Cersei - that lion still has claws.

Why did Sansa accept Ramsay Bolton - Littlefinger can't be that convincing! It's not as if he even had a good argument there - "You need to take control of your life - by marrying somebody you don't know!" And how is she planning on getting her "revenge"?

Best dialogue of the night was "I heard it was best to keep your enemies close" "Whoever said that didn't have many enemies!"

Love the "Mother of Dragons" whore! But what are the odds that Tyrion and Jorah would both end up in the same brothel? Yes, it happened in the Books too (and I guess we can be glad it at least cut short any more aimless wondering) but it was barely credible then either!

On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 3:20 AM, benteen said:

I still enjoyed Jon's execution of Slynt.  Aemon being sick makes me think he's not going to leave the Wall.  Liked Jon appointing Ser Alliser as First Ranger (complete with favorable reaction from the Night's Watch) and him stepping aside when they came after Slynt.  I really like what they're doing with Alliser and his show counterpart is far better and more dimensional than his book counterpart.

Agreed. Ser Alliser may dislike Jon, but he's loyal to the Night Watch. No military can have people flatly refusing to follow orders without consequences and Janos should have known that (and, given he ended up at the Wall, how important his "friends" were!).

On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 4:51 AM, loki567 said:

Cersei seems to be trying to set up the Sparrows as her shock troops to maintain power. Unlike the books where it's basically Cersei lets a militant religious group arm itself because she's a moron.

It was mainly to reduce the Crown's debt burden, but still a short sighted move.

On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 3:34 AM, Black Knight said:

Littlefinger told Roose about Tyrion and Sansa never consummating their marriage, and therefore she's no man's wife. I don't remember that being said in the books (although book LF must've had something like that in mind, since he did plan to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir), but that's what the show is going with.

Littlefinger is keeping her as Alayne Stone because he can't annul her marriage. It seems Littlefinger is waiting on Tyrion's death to end their marriage (though he may be trying to hasten that happening).

On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 5:25 AM, Happy Harpy said:

Talking about out of one's depth, Littlefinger not having done his homework on Ramsay is unforgivable. To me, it only means that his plan is going to backfire.

I understood why Sansa stuck with him last week, but the devil you know could be wrong choice in the end. I don't want her to be victimized again.

IF that's true. I assume Littlefinger was lying (his lips were moving!) and he knows Ramsay at least by reputation, but he's hardly going to sell Sansa on the marriage if he goes, "Oh, Ramsay is a complete sadist that gets off on murdering women!" So we're getting more victim Sansa (I have no idea why Sansa didn't back out immediately). If this is what convinced her:

On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 4:44 PM, screamin said:

1) Marry you to the son of Roose Bolton, the man who killed your family and will distrust you and keep you as much a valued prisoner as the Lannisters ever did.

2) ????

3) Vengeance!

...then how exactly is Sansa going to get her vengeance? Is she going to slit Roose & Ramsay's throats? I doubt she has that in her, but if not... does she have any clue how to go about her revenge?

On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 5:25 AM, Happy Harpy said:

Sarcastic, funny, not-wallowing Tyrion was back!

Really!? I thought he was like a kid going "Are we nearly there yet?" and kicking the driving seat. There's a reason Varys wants you to stay hidden - there's a price on your head (OK, it was amazingly unlucky to run into somebody who knew who you were in a random brothel, but I could totally see Varys going, "I told him so!"