S01.E03: Anna Regina

[lucindabelle]

Of course, but when we watch a movie and are seeing things through Henry's eyes, WE should see it. And it's as if we always get history's version of Anne... Ambitious, cruel, sophisticated, charmless.

Some decent scriptwriter should dare to write her as at least as compelling as a film noire heroine, at least for her scenes with henry, it just makes him look stupid.

[turbogirlnyc]

Of course, but when we watch a movie and are seeing things through Henry's eyes, WE should see it. And it's as if we always get history's version of Anne... Ambitious, cruel, sophisticated, charmless.

Some decent scriptwriter should dare to write her as at least as compelling as a film noire heroine, at least for her scenes with henry, it just makes him look stupid.

If you want to read Anne as a saint, pick up an Allison Weir book. Hell, even her book about Mary Boleyn is basically about her "beloved" Anne. I think Anne is portrayed how she was described by her contemporaries. Did she deserve to die? Hell no. Was she a saint? Still no. Sorry but I never understood the Anne worship. And can someone please find an actress with black hair and black eyes to portray Anne Boleyn? What's with this series & The Tudors giving Anne blue eyes?

This series doesn't portray K.O.A. in a good light either.

This episode was ok. At least we got to see Harry Lloyd for two seconds this time. I just can't buy Cromwell as an old, old man at this point in time. No charisma whatsoever.

I don't like Cromwell with Liz either but that's what's in the books so, yeah.

[duVerre]

 

we always get history's version of Anne... Ambitious, cruel, sophisticated, charmless.

 

This is what I loved about the glimpse of Vanessa Redgrave as A.B. in "A Man for All Seasons." She's just radiantly happy (and of course, extremely beautiful.)  Imagine a drama that cast an actress with that kind of charm, but whose mood could turn on a dime to ... well, hostility, paranoia, the sulks. If the character was presented who had that many contradictory facets, viewers would understand why Henry went to such lengths to have her. 

[lucindabelle]

I don't want to see Her as a saintl that's unfair. I just am sick of seeing her the way late Henry and her enemies described her. I'd like to see her as bewitching, the woman henry fell in love with, who may not have been what he thought, I never get to see that.

Again, henry was NOT the only man to fall for her, I want to know why. Thomas Wyatt was a very great poet. She must have had something.

[turbogirlnyc]

I don't want to see Her as a saintl that's unfair. I just am sick of seeing her the way late Henry and her enemies described her. I'd like to see her as bewitching, the woman henry fell in love with, who may not have been what he thought, I never get to see that.

Again, henry was NOT the only man to fall for her, I want to know why. Thomas Wyatt was a very great poet. She must have had something.

I think she was portrayed well in The Six Wives of Henry VIII with Keith Mitchell. It's an older movie and very good, if not long. It also has my favorite portrayal of Catherine Howard. Keith Mitchell is wonderful as Henry. It was available on Netflix until this year. Sorry if I offended. Edited April 23, 2015 by turbogirlnyc

[LiveenLetLive]

 

I just can't buy Cromwell as an old, old man at this point in time.

Oh dear, LOL, Rylance is 55, not young, but certainly not "one foot in the grave" either! I believe that the real Cromwell was at least in his 40's during this time period so the casting was in the ballpark. As for Anne, I am sure that all of us have known a woman who many men find insanely attractive and we just can't see it. I know that I have. AB was smart, sophisticated, and could talk theology with Henry on an "equals" level not to mention her youth with its promise of male progeny--it would be nice if for once an actress could capture all of this, but it seems more usual to capture Anne as capricious, selfish, and yes the sort of "mean girl" who used to slap poor Princess Mary around (at least according to some historians.)

[turbogirlnyc]

Oh dear, LOL, Rylance is 55, not young, but certainly not "one foot in the grave" either! I believe that the real Cromwell was at least in his 40's during this time period so the casting was in the ballpark. As for Anne, I am sure that all of us have known a woman who many men find insanely attractive and we just can't see it. I know that I have. AB was smart, sophisticated, and could talk theology with Henry on an "equals" level not to mention her youth with its promise of male progeny--it would be nice if for once an actress could capture all of this, but it seems more usual to capture Anne as capricious, selfish, and yes the sort of "mean girl" who used to slap poor Princess Mary around (at least according to some historians.)

Oh man! I guessed Rylance much older than 55. My mistake. I simply can't stop comparing Rylance to James Frain. :(

Didn't Anne want Katherine and Mary poisoned?

[dr pepper]

I was also a little put off by her twitchiness, but Mary did have a lot of physical ailments from a young age and there are reports that she was pretty dramatic at those times.  She did mention that she was having 'female problems' . Mary often took to her bed for days each month with her cycles.  She had headaches which were debilitating too.  I think we were supposed to see her as a bit of a hypochondriac, which she was, but the portrayal seemed off, making her problems seem neurologic and not physical/emotional.

 

 

Also remember that back then, what passed for medical science still listed "being female" as a medical condition. Her doctors would have been quick to accept any discomfort she reported as just part of the package and recommended more rest.

[Anothermi]

I got an odd kick out of the fact that they agreed the Holy Maid of Kent was a fraud.

 

Can someone explain to me the plot point re the Holy Maid? I'm afraid I'm in the dark. 

 

My take on the "holy maid" is that Cromwell sees her as a potential enemy, because she is talking smack about Henry and Anne, so he seeks to neutralize her by 1) gaining her confidence by posing as a potential 'customer', and 2) finding out who her patron / protector is.

 

In addition to what WhiteStumbler said, I think there is a cinematic purpose to the whole thing around the Holy Maid because we get to see just how Cromwell works. He doesn't just form a judgement and act. He investigates, gathers proofs (or has his boys do it) so that if he has to act on the issue he has as much intel at his disposal as possible and can give reliable advice - especially as he's dealing with the King. It shows why he's a good advisor and we don't have to see all that background each time he gives advice, but we already know how he works.  

 

As for how everyone - and specifically Anne Boleyn - is portrayed? I haven't read the books and don't consider myself all that knowledgable about Tudor history. But from watching interviews with Hilary Mantell and reading what others have posted who have read the books, I accept that the version of events and personalities we are seeing is very Cromwell specific. Normally we view history through the lens of those who support one side or the other. Mantell noted that Cromwell is normally vilified so she set out to show the world through his eyes. Naturally individuals have biases and he would be no different, so some people will appear in a good light because he likes them (Mary Boleyn) and others (Anne) will appear in a bad one. The things that seem to be missing are because of this. Many of us come to this show with opinions of the historical figures that are formed from equally biased points of view, but ones that have held sway for such a long time that they are taken as truths. Mantell is playing with the "unknown" part of history where speculation/interpretation is frequently mistaken for fact. This speculation is Cromwell centric and provides a refreshing POV for a change (for me at least).

Edited April 24, 2015 by Anothermi

[sugarbaker design]

Didn't Anne want Katherine and Mary poisoned?

 

 

After Elizabeth was born AB viewed K&M as threats, she wanted them gone.

[Dirtybubble]

I accept that the version of events and personalities we are seeing is very Cromwell specific. Normally we view history through the lens of those who support one side or the other

You know I never thought of it like that, the personalities are based on how T.C. sees them not who they actually are.  But enh this is over 500 years ago, who knows what they were really like.  And murder and cruelty seem to be common place so maybe it isn't that unusual to execute what we would consider cruel punishment on someone. 

[attica]

And never once in any single adaptation or novel have I seen her portrayed as bewitching.

 

I liked Helena Bonham Carter's turn in the 2003 verzh with Ray Winstone as H8. I thought she captured AB's sense of fun and her vivacity.

 

Can I confess here (I think I'm among friends) that I find myself wanting to do internet searches for snoods after an ep of this show? I don't have anywhere a snood would be appropriate garb, but goddamn they look so pretty and comfortable and you don't have to wash your hair, and they're almost like crowns so you can pretend you're royalty, and OMG the costume porn is KILLING ME DEAD.

Edited April 24, 2015 by attica

[rockchicknyc]

They're not really snoods, but hoods. The French hood, generally credited to Anne for introducing to England, is the very pretty face-framing, front-hair-revealing headband with veil attached behind one. The gable hood, which the French hood succeeded and replaced, is the rather clunky, padded in front, pointed on top, box-like thing that covers the whole head, hair included, that was favored by KoA and later picked up by Jane Seymour, perhaps as a way of connecting herself with Katherine's virtue, as she perceived it, and distancing from Anne and her debauched French fashion.

 

Snoods were favored in the 1930s and 40s, and were more like fancy crocheted or knotted hairnets that you bundled your hair into at the back of your neck; a very pretty style, but in my opinion inferior to the French hood.

 

I'm more into the bling myself: I've always loved that pearl necklace Anne wears in paintings, with the lovely gold B and its pendant pearls. The teenage Elizabeth is painted in a gorgeous rose gown with a similar A on a necklace, and I think there's even one of her with the B pendant, undoubtedly both inherited from her mother. I've seen a locket ring Elizabeth wore, with two portraits inside, one of her and one of Anne, I think the most overt reference to her mother she ever made.

 

But yes, costume porn and jewel porn forever!

Edited April 25, 2015 by rockchicknyc

[kieyra]

I've been meaning to mention that I like the somewhat deconstructed French hoods they're using in this. They seem a little easier for actresses to manage than the real thing, but they give you the same silhouette. 

[paramitch]

I liked this episode a lot, and especially enjoyed that we're seeing a bit more steel and strategy behind the Cromwell character. I love the fact that Rylance shows us a man who notices, and quietly notes, everything he sees.

 

On the question of Anne, for me nobody has ever quite lived up to Genevieve Bujold in Anne of the Thousand Days. She just had that perfect combination for me of fire and confidence, as well as strength and arrogance. She was also physically right for it, to me, as well, with the black eyes and hair, and the small frame. You could believe people finding her either ugly or beautiful, so that worked for me. (I also thought Natalie Portman had the right look for Anne, but I was so furious at the howlworthy and laughable "history" in The Other Boleyn Girl that I couldn't even finish it. Gah.)

So far, the actress who plays Anne here is okay, and I do think she gives her some moments of real sharpness and even humor, but I wish she had more general charisma (the girl who plays the Holy Maid, interestingly enough, to me just blows her away in terms of screen impact and force of onscreen personality thus far). 

 

I love all the clothing as well -- the costume design for this show for both the men as well as the women is just gorgeous. I particularly love the little glimpses we get of just how much time (and how many layers) it takes for both the men and women both to dress for court.

[Gretchen8]

I agree about Genevieve Bujold.  Also she was French Canadian, and Anne, though English, spent her formative years speaking French in France and Belgium and was seen as "French" at the English court.  In Hilary Mantel's books she pronounces "Cromwell" as "Cremuel," with a French accent.

 

I also like Anne in the less-seen 2003 version of The Other Boleyn Girl with Jodhi May.  It's an unusual film that skips around from the present to the past, and has an experimental feel to it which is fun if you like that kind of thing.  It shows Anne as a person trapped in a particular moment in history that sucked her in and destroyed her, unlike her sister Mary who managed to escape.  May is someone who can be either beautiful or ordinary depending on makeup/lighting/style and she does a great job imho at making Anne a sexpot/temptress who catches the king's imagination while others can't really see what he sees in her.  Also Jared Harris as the king is not at all hard to watch.

[ulkis]

On the question of Anne, for me nobody has ever quite lived up to Genevieve Bujold in Anne of the Thousand Days. She just had that perfect combination for me of fire and confidence, as well as strength and arrogance. She was also physically right for it, to me, as well, with the black eyes and hair, and the small frame. You could believe people finding her either ugly or beautiful, so that worked for me. (I also thought Natalie Portman had the right look for Anne, but I was so furious at the howlworthy and laughable "history" in The Other Boleyn Girl that I couldn't even finish it. Gah.)

 

Yeah, Genevieve Bujold is probably my favorite Anne.

 

Merle Oberyn in "the Private Life of Henry VIII" was good physical casting as well. Too bad she didn't have a bigger part, I would have liked to see what she could have done in the role.

[ulkis]

I also take issues with the portrayal of Mary Tudor as suffering from some kind of mental disease.  That tremulous voice, the head twitching and shaking.  Ugh.  Mary may have been a sickly young woman but I don't think there is any evidence she was ever cuckoo, and this portrayal makes it sound like there is something wrong with her in the head.

 

Yah know I didn't really see it like that.  I saw it as a young lady, on the ill side, but still having a very sharp tongue & mind.  Didn't she eventually die of ovarian cancer or something similar to that?  Still it was interesting to see this pretty young lady who will one day become Bloody Mary!

 

Yeah, maybe she seemed a bit frail, but I didn't think she seemed cuckoo or particularly twitchy.

[zoey1996]

I didn't understand the first scene, with the Bible (?) being read by More (?) and the woman in pain? What was that about? After that, I got most of it, but that first scene puzzles me. Any 'enlightenment' appreciated!

[algebra]

Yeah, maybe she seemed a bit frail, but I didn't think she seemed cuckoo or particularly twitchy.

mary Tudor grew up knowing that people wanted her dead and supposedly when she was returned to court her father commented on that fact and she fainted. if she was a little unhinged she certainly had a right to be

[algebra]

I didn't understand the first scene, with the Bible (?) being read by More (?) and the woman in pain? What was that about? After that, I got most of it, but that first scene puzzles me. Any 'enlightenment' appreciated!

[algebra]

The scene with Thomas More reading from the Bible: he is reading the Latin Vulgate translation of 2 Peter 2:1 and supervising the torture of a Protestant in an effort to get him (or her) to recant.