Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[mjgchick]

Question, do you guys think Normal Emma would've done the same to save Hook? Like she'd do whatever it takes to save Hook or would she had accept his death?

[Curio]

That's a really good question. I think even normal Emma would have saved Hook's life because normal Emma can't imagine her life without him, but I'm not sure she would have done all the lying and deceiving about Excalibur afterwards.

[YaddaYadda]

I think they've sort of contrasted Emma and the dagger with Hook, and his tether.

 

And it's something that he himself brought up. When they came upon Emma about to crush Merida's heart, Hook's reaction was that Emma had a choice, which was the opposite of her mother's. And the decision was that Emma should have the dagger, because there was this element of trust. But Emma decided that the power was too much, and if she lost control, she needed to be stopped.

 

With Hook, because he told her he was weak, and uncertain, she made the choice to not give him Excalibur, lie to him about it.

 

She didn't trust him because he didn't trust himself. "How am I supposed to believe I can do this, if you don't believe in me?"

 

I've been wondering about the outcome if Emma had chosen to tell him the truth. I think his reaction would've been similar to Emma's because she got through to him, and chased away Clippy.

 

That said, Emma is very different. She's not Rumple levels of evil, but her bad instincts are amplified. I think she tried to do the best she could with what she was dealt.

 

I think the most upsetting thing for me in this arc is that her sacrifice was noble, and she's just paying the price for trying to do the right thing, and it's wrong on so many levels.

 

Question, do you guys think Normal Emma would've done the same to save Hook? Like she'd do whatever it takes to save Hook or would she had accept his death?

 

I think she would have. But I think she would have handled the situation with Hook the way he handled the situation with her, complete honesty, and just a lot of emotional support to make sure he got through it. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

I think the most upsetting thing for me in this arc is that her sacrifice was noble, and she's just paying the price for trying to do the right thing, and it's wrong on so many levels.

 

I don't mind Emma paying a price right now if it means she gets an awesome reward at the end, but this show never shows the happy moments (like those six weeks between 4x11 and 4x12) so it always seems like doom and gloom and it's exhausting.

[mjgchick]

Yeah I think the Emma who has tapped into her magic would've saved him as well. Its how she goes about Dark Hook that would've changed. Her being under the Dark influence is why her choices has blown up in her face.

The only thing I don't agree with is Emma trying to fix her own mess alone makes her the biggest evil of all evil.

[KAOS Agent]

In one of his many, many recent interviews, Colin said that he didn't think Captain Swan would work with both of them dark. I think he's right. Both characters have their negative traits turned up to eleven, so neither makes the best choices. I think no matter what Emma had done regarding Excalibur, Hook would have found something she did that made him mad enough to turn on her.

The whole problem with her family treating Emma like normal Emma just with a different look is that it covers up what the Darkness has done to Emma. You don't get that feeling that she wasn't totally driving the bus when she was dealing with Hook in Camelot. Both of them were/are compromised, so it's going to blow up no matter what they do. Minor slights seem like huge things that get tied into past traumas and get blown way out of proportion. Emma tried to mitigate this by isolating herself and pulling into a tight ball of control. Everything is calm and cold. No emotion that can be stirred up to cause trouble. It's that same control that will allow her to do whatever needs to be done and easily rationalize it as the right choice.

[Camera One]

If Emma gets de-Darked tonight, then I hope they spend a lot of screentime working through all the pain she has been through in this half-season with everyone trying to help her through it.  But then again, it is *this* show, so maybe this is a pipe dream and we'd be more likely to see a ballroom filled with dancing bears.

[Curio]

But why show Emma's emotional thought processes when we can watch the far superior Camelot characters, Nimue, Merida, and the Baby Green drama that we still have to get through? (Why did we spend 2 episodes on Merida, again??)

[Rumsy4]

..,I think no matter what Emma had done regarding Excalibur, Hook would have found something she did that made him mad enough to turn on her.

...t's that same control that will allow her to do whatever needs to be done and easily rationalize it as the right choice.

You are probably right about Hook turning on Emma in any scenario. He was already mad that she had made him a DO.

I hope Emma doesn't end up doing something she'll regret to "fix" her mistakes, especially with people guilting her. Okay, lbr, that's probably what happens.

[Shanna Marie]

It's a tough situation because we weren't allowed to see how normal non-dark Emma would have reacted in this situation, but what we did get to see was Dark Emma reacting poorly and creating lie after lie. I'm guessing that normal Emma would have been able to trust Dark Hook with Excalibur, but the darkness inside Emma gave her that extra sense of doubt which forced her to make the wrong decision and lie to Hook's face.

I said something along these lines in the Hook thread, but using the alcoholism metaphor that we've been working with, when a recovering alcoholic is in a bar with a drink in front of him, you can't really expect a person who's drinking, who's already buzzed, and who may be on a downward spiral herself to be the one who can keep him from relapsing. She's just not equipped to do that in her current state. Her current state is all about fear and distrust. The light is being dampened, and it's very hard for her to have hope. How can she give him hope if she has to work extra hard to have it herself, and if he's been the one to give her hope? She's lost the support system that was keeping her hanging on, so it's nearly impossible for her to be his support system. Two drowning people can't save each other. So I can't bring myself to blame Emma for not being able to save Hook.

 

I don't know if normal Emma would have made the same decision to save him. She might have been more willing to let him go because she'd have been more willing to listen to his wishes. On the other hand, she's lost so much already, and this was a case that really wasn't fair. He wasn't taking a stupid risk (like Neal). His death wasn't necessary. It was a scratch that he got saving them all. I could see her drawing the line in her losses, that this was one she wasn't going to take when she didn't have to, and then she might have been able to do for him the kind of thing he was able to do for her and keep him holding on until they could fix it.

[mjgchick]

Someone said Jennifer spent 4 hours crying in tonights episode. I don't know if I could even do that.

[Mari]

That must have been cathartic.  And salty.  Hopefully someone was feeding her some electrolyte water..

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mari

[mjgchick]

When her parents grabbed her and Snow is whispering "it's ok baby." she looked really young there.

[OnceUponAJen]

Someone said Jennifer spent 4 hours crying in tonights episode. I don't know if I could even do that.

I get all puffy when I cry even half that much LOL! I'd have to ice down my face.

[YaddaYadda]

Yeah, those scenes must've been emotionally hard, draining, and exhausting. I hope she got a day off after that.

 

Believe it or not, Henry's reaction to Hook's death also got to me. 

 

And maybe finally people will get it through their thick heads that Emma loves Hook as much as he loves her. One thing I noticed is that she is now more free with her words with him.

[Curio]

My absolute favorite Emma moment last night (and a top moment of the entire series) was Emma's "Don't test me." She was just so commanding and intimidating, totally not backing down to the most powerful Dark One in the Once universe. 

[mjgchick]

Yeah Henry looked devistated. I probably would if that was my mom but he seemed sad to be losing another person in his life as well.

And seriously if people are still questioning how Emma feels about Hook then I don't know what to say.

Having the Sheriff and the rest of her police force out of Storybrook again makes Storybrook Police force an epic joke at this point. It's bad enough that Emma will likely let Rumple get away with his betrayel AGAIN but she's been not so sheriff for 9 weeks I think. But I guess since she keeps saving the town's ass they rest can't say anything.

Edited December 7, 2015 by mjgchick

[InsertWordHere]

My absolute favorite Emma moment last night (and a top moment of the entire series) was Emma's "Don't test me." She was just so commanding and intimidating, totally not backing down to the most powerful Dark One in the Once universe. 

It was an nice callback to their confrontation in Manhattan when they exchanged "Don't push me's." This Emma/Gold confrontation has been a long time coming. 

[mjgchick]

Emma is so done with him. I hope Emma doesn't lose sight of him and remembers what he did no matter what he does in the Underworld.

[Rumsy4]

I loved that Emma's face was glowing with hope when she promised Hook she would always find him. Her countenance is so positive and open. This is Emma with all her Walls down. The Ugly Duckling has finally blossomed into a Swan. Sigh...

[Dianthus]

If they wanted to leave Rumple behind in the UW (I know, I know), I would be totally ok with it.

[Rumsy4]

I was surprised at how much I liked seeing Emma back in her red leather jacket at the end of the episode. The whole of Camelot arc, she's been in fairy tale dresses or decked in black leather. So, it had an greater impact seeing her dressed in her old "savior" jacket. The Costume Department did a great job as usual. And credit goes to JMo for her input as well. 

[YaddaYadda]

I was surprised at how much I liked seeing Emma back in her red leather jacket at the end of the episode.

I think I felt relieved to see her hair down, and the red jacket. And then I cried because everything that followed was much fuckery. She's the Savior again, and the Savior is literally born out of tragedy, the same way her Dark Swan persona was.

[KingOfHearts]

I wish we could have gotten a moment to take in that Emma was no longer the Dark One. That's something we had been waiting for since 4x22, and it was pushed aside in favor of Rumple's betrayal and the Underworld.

[Camera One]

She never even got to react to the fact that she was no longer the Dark One, though that also had to do with being overwhelmed with grief.  

[Mathius]

There's a big backlash among fans concerning Hook stealing away the 5A arc from Emma, who it was allegedly about.  This is a valid opinion, but I'm flabbergasted that almost everyone who is expressing it is an Evil Regal / Swan Queen shipper.  Really?  Regina stole two arcs away from Emma (3B and 4B), ate up screentime with an unrelated subplot during another (4A), and was even shoehorned in to a major role in this one, yet it only becomes a problem when it's Hook who does it? Actually, on second thought, it's these people, so it's not that flabbergasting.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Mathius

[YaddaYadda]

I think the writers chickened out from having Emma do stuff like crushing someone's heart, and being full on dark, and decided that a better person to do it would be Hook. I think they were always going down the road of something happened to him that made Emma go dark, but I don't think they had Dark One Hook worked out.

 

I wish they'd explain away why Emma didn't react to the darkness the way she did. You know, like Emma is the Savior, and her light magic balances out the dark magic, and whatever...

 

Since Emma was a no go in terms of doing horrible things, I'm glad they chose Hook for it. At least it goes a long way for his redemption arc. 

[mjgchick]

Did Hook really steel her arc though? The show probably chose Hook to become Dark One because they didn't want Emma to kill anyone and to further show how much Hook means to Emma that's it. Hook didn't really get the internal struggles Emma got early on and she was the one who saved everyone and got punished for it AGAIN.

 

What I want to know is how many steps does it take for you to get scaly faced after being the Dark One? Emma got gooped sucked in, then she had a wardrobe change because Hook was turned into the Dark One. Would her wanting to kill someone would be her final step? Hook didn't get scaly either and he killed someone via Nimue. Al though I guess it's different for Rumple because he killed someone to become the Dark One and Nimue killed someone out of revenge on her own accord I guess.

Edited December 10, 2015 by mjgchick

[october]

There's a big backlash among fans concerning Hook stealing away the 5A arc from Emma, who it was allegedly about.  This is a valid opinion, but I'm flabbergasted that almost everyone who is expressing it is an Evil Regal / Swan Queen shipper.  Really?  Regina stole two arcs away from Emma (3B and 4B), ate up screentime with an unrelated subplot during another (4A), and was even shoehorned in to a major role in this one, yet it only becomes a problem when it's Hook who does it? Actually, on second thought, it's these people, so it's not that flabbergasting.

 

The more they tried to wedge Regina into the main events of the finale the more obvious it was that she didn't belong there. This story was Emma and Hook's, not Regina's.

 

Thinking back to all that Saviour!Regina bullshit early in S5 (that amounted to not much at all) and the way the episode teased Regina being the one to use Excalibur, Regina's eventual irrelevance was quite surprising to me. I think that's what pissed these shippers off. They don't care that Regina's story arcs have eclipsed Emma's in the past because SQ and ER are all about Regina. They only feign concern about Emma when they want to trash Killian and bleat about SQ. Because SQ fans project as hard as they do, they accuse Hook of doing the very thing Regina has been doing for years; it's the same as when they call him a rapist or an abuser.

Edited December 10, 2015 by october

[mjgchick]

I liked what Adam tweeted about writing Emma for 100 episodes.

 

[YaddaYadda]

Regina has done very little magic, actually, has projected her own insecurities onto Emma which almost backfired. And someone wearing red doesn't mean they're going to the Savior. Hook wore a red vest, and saved Emma, and her family, so I guess that makes him a savior. I hope we can put this nonsense to rest forever, and ever.

 

If anything, I thought they drove the point that the only Savior is Emma.

[mjgchick]

Yeah I honestly think the media hyped up Regina being the new Savior (which I think Eddy backtracked and said it wasn't true.) was them projecting their wishes on her becoming one. Much like how Natalie A kept asking if Hook will go dark now that Emma's dark. He did but not by choice. While the show made Regina pretend to be the Savior (They could've had Snow do it as well but whatever.) it was still Emma who had to save Robin and also saved herself at the end by killing Hook.

[KingOfHearts]

Aside from Captain Swan, Dark Swan felt a little pointless to me. It wasn't completely necessary to the overall plot of the show, since Rumple's heart problem just sort of came out of the blue and is the only reason it happened. Most of 4B did not actually build up to it, nor was it the next logical step in the story development. It was, for all intents and purposes, a threatening situation thrown in by the writers to serve as 5A's conflict. Emma sacrificing herself again doesn't exactly push the characters into any new territory. In this case, all it does is pump up the drama on a higher level.

 

It was, however, a great opportunity for valuable character interactions. Emma going from the Savior to the doom-bringer had to be jarring for the citizens of Storybrooke. For that reason, I was hopeful about it. But the only character the show really explored reactions with is Hook. Emma's relationship with him was the only thing that fully utilized the Dark Swan plot. Everyone else was sidelined and cared about as much for her as they do for any other Big Bad. Granted, Henry was betrayed and got a little bit of interaction, but that was resolved as quickly as it was introduced. Going forward, I don't see her relationship with him all that differently.

 

5A forgot there were other parts of Emma besides Hook, Henry and Regina. My favorite scenes were where she was in Camelot and tortured by Clippy!Rumple. If we're going to play with her mind, there's a lot more to dig up. Why not have Clippy!Rumple appear to her as Neal, Walsh, Ingrid, or Graham? She's been so afflicted with losing loved ones, wouldn't she be more susceptible to listening to voices out of their mouths? Sparkly!Rumple didn't seem that persuasive with her. Most of the time she just wanted him to bug off. But I digress. I just wish we could have seen more of what was going on in her head or the thinking process behind her motives. The writers held a lot of that back for their big twist in 5x08 that she was trying to save Hook this whole time.

 

The only real lasting qualities of Dark Swan are her PTSD and her new unyielding passion for Hook. Sure she loved him before, but now nothing is going to get between her and her man - not even death. Those aren't underwhelming consequences themselves, but Emma is more three-dimensional than A&E give her credit for. The other characters (besides Hook in the final chapter) had zero growth. We weren't given any insight on them, either. Their reactions to Dark Swan were mainly a slap on the wrist, which reminds me of 4x07. They might as well have sprayed water on her muzzle and threatened to not give her any treats.

[Camera One]

They needed Clippy!Rumple since it was mainly to give Robert Carlyle something to do while he was comatose in Storybrooke.  Everything happens for a reason.  And I don't mean that in a good way, LOL.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

This quote from Eddy made me incandescent with rage: "She finally embraced falling in love, and unfortunately for Emma, everyone she’s ever loved died, and she just didn’t want to see that happen again. So we liked the idea of, what happens when Emma is confronted with the idea of having to let him go? Well, she couldn’t do it. She turned him into a Dark One, the one thing he hated. But their love won out and she ended up having to let him go."

 

Yes, wouldn't it be fun to see Emma suffer yet another loss of her loved one. This didn't even tread new ground. Emma was an active part of ending Neal's life as well. Isn't it super great to watch her have to strike the final blow to yet another guy she loved? In the last few months in show time, Emma has thrown Walsh off the roof, magically separated Neal from Rumpel knowing he would die and run Hook through with Excalibur. Do we now have definitive proof that Emma will ultimately do what needs to be done? 

 

I don't really understand the need to continue to do this to Emma since we already know how she'd deal with it. Why not explore it with someone like Regina? She threatened to go off the deep end if Emma didn't heal Robin, so why not explore whether Regina could deal with loss more constructively this time? How about Snow having to deal with the loss of David for real? Could she maintain hope through that? Why is it necessary to destroy Emma yet again when her final actions don't change?

 

What really pisses me off about the story pushing continued loss for Emma is that everyone constantly berates her for pushing people away to avoid being hurt. The reality is that Emma has suffered an immense number of permanent losses to justify her walls. She's always waiting for the other shoe to drop and being chastised for worrying about it, but then the shoe always drops for her. If this show could just once not have Emma's worries proved justified, I'd be much more on the side of the others for telling her to embrace the future. It's easy to talk about hope when life seems to work out for you. It's less so when the losses continue to mount. Apparently, the writers want Emma to get to a point where the loss doesn't matter anymore and she just accepts it. I'm not really sure how they want to evolve Emma at this point because her becoming numb and uncaring about loss is pretty much the only place they can take her.

[mjgchick]

The only way for this Dark Swan storyline to be a success is if Emma ends Rumple for good. He doesn't deserve another chance. Rumple is the ultimate Mary Sue at this point.

[Camera One]

They "destroy" Emma because the writers feel like it's dramatic gold to have the actress show her chops in such emotional scenes.  I guess that could be considered a compliment.  The problem is the Writers write each character using a certain cookie cutter pattern that can be repeated over and over again.  For Emma, it's walls and loss.  

 

She threatened to go off the deep end if Emma didn't heal Robin, so why not explore whether Regina could deal with loss more constructively this time?

 

She did "lose" Robin at the end of 4A, and dealt with it relatively constructively, by Regina standards.  She was willing to let him live "happily" in NYC with Marian until she found out it was Zelena impersonating Marian.

 

How about Snow having to deal with the loss of David for real?

 

Emma isn't really dealing with the loss of Hook "for real" in this plotline either.  With the journey to the Underworld, it just became another #Save____ tagline.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Emma isn't really dealing with the loss of Hook "for real" in this plotline either.  With the journey to the Underworld, it just became another #Save____ tagline.

 

No, but Emma dealt with the loss of Neal and Graham and Walsh and Ingrid for real, so why do they think it changes anything for her to "lose" Hook? That's not an interesting story. It's just piling on. Not to mention Emma continually has to actually be the one to kill her boyfriends and was planning to kill Ingrid until she offed herself. It's why I get so angry when the show tries to teach Emma these lessons about not putting up walls. Actually let her have something good and keep it and then we'll talk about how her walls are a problem.

 

 

She did "lose" Robin at the end of 4A, and dealt with it relatively constructively, by Regina standards.  She was willing to let him live "happily" in NYC with Marian until she found out it was Zelena impersonating Marian.

 

Regina really didn't lose Robin. Her plan was to rewrite the book to get him back, so she wasn't planning on it being a long term thing. Rewriting the book wasn't exactly a constructive way to deal with things. It was not dealing with anything. It was a magical shortcut to fix things. Funny story, Emma tried that with Hook and it ended up with her killing Hook. Shockingly, Regina never had to deal with anything because she got it all handed to her before she went through with the rewrite.

[Camera One]

I thought she expected the book to give her a "happy ending", not necessarily with Robin Hood per se?

 

Emma dealt with the loss of Neal and Graham and Walsh and Ingrid for real, so why do they think it changes anything for her to "lose" Hook? That's not an interesting story. It's just piling on.

I agree.  Though I think to the writers, it's an epic tragic love moment, akin to Romeo and Juliet.  

[Dianthus]

I don't see how going to the UW to get Hook is about letting him go. They keep saying shit like this, that has almost nothing to do with what we're seeing on screen. This isn't Emma mourning his loss and moving on, this is about determination. This is one loss she's not gonna take lying down. This is her fighting for Hook, like she was supposedly doing last season, but didn't.

[mjgchick]

Or maybe this is Emma who thinks Hook didn't deserve to go out like that and maybe the sex is good. lol

[YaddaYadda]

I think Emma was all set to let him go. She killed the guy at a huge personal cost to herself. I think it's the betrayal that made her spring into action. She says that what Rumple did makes Hook sacrificing everything unfair. For her, and him, he was the price of the destruction of the darkness which is what they thought they were doing.

 

The darkness hasn't been destroyed, so why should either one of them have pay the price?

Edited December 16, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[mjgchick]

Exactly. What a waste of hours of crying she must have done. Rumples an ass I seriously hope Emma ends him. I dont think Killian would because Dark Killian seems way into the revenge while the Killian we've seen before Dark Killian thought it was a waste of time. Emma (if this is RCs last season.) is the only one I can see ending him for the greater good. Shit she did it to Hook was willing to do it to Ingrid as well and those are people she loved.

[Faemonic]

I found a transcription of the letter Emma wrote the Charmings. For all that fans grumble about these writers not wanting to write the boring stuff, I'm glad they put in a word for Emma to her family...that wasn't actually important to the plot because the Dark Ones were going to teleport everyone to the thing anyway. And Snow actually got to read it, unlike the voice message that allowed Hook to emote but didn't do anything to either the plot or the in-show relationship.

 

For my family, I’m sorry but I can’t let you all pay for my mistake. Deep down, you know I’m right. So please, promise me you’ll move on and find happiness and help Henry grow into the best man he can be. That’s enough for me. To die knowing the family I always wanted is safe. Love you all forever.

 

Hrmm... having a death wish is characteristic of Hook, but even in the circumstances, I'm surprised that Savior Emma would volunteer for that position. If she said that resurrecting Hook as a Dark One was a mistake, and that the man who loved her died back in Camelot, then why wouldn't she plan to tether the darkness to Darth Jones and skewer him?

 

Because what would have happened instead if Emma's plan was go, is that the darkness would've gotten extracted from Hook. And he'll be left without magic, among the family of Emma, after Emma died to correct the mistake she made with Hook. Hook's had centuries to live, Ems, don't leave him in such an awkward situation!

 

Oh, and this is "the family she always wanted." I'm crying a little because I'm remembering Snow in the Echo Caves where the best thing she had to say is that what they had with Emma is...unique...

 

That whole arc was basically showing that Emma is committed to fixing things herself. Everybody was hammering in that she shouldn't have done it all herself: the Rumplestiltskin hallucination, Darth Jones, the Nevengers... and she opens up to Henry about the dreamcatcher recapture, and to Regina about that other plan... but then, that letter.

 

I mentioned elsewhere that with everyone except for Hook being written out of Emma interactions, and then even Hook not having positive interactions because of Darth Jones, then it's like Emma might as well have never made the cupcake wish. Not only does everyone around her have a terribly toxic dynamic, that's the last thing someone with Emma's history and sensitivity needs, but Emma herself just doesn't learn.

 

Emma (if this is RCs last season.) is the only one I can see ending him for the greater good. Shit she did it to Hook was willing to do it to Ingrid as well and those are people she loved.

But Rumple's faaaaamily (that is, blood relation).

Edited December 26, 2015 by Faemonic

[Rumsy4]

but Emma herself just doesn't learn

 

Emma has to learn the same lessons three or four times before it sticks apparently. Remember her near constant "New York" refrain in 3B, after accepting Storybrooke as home in 3A? And two season finales (2B and 3B) had a big point about her acknowledging her parents as mom and dad. In the 4B finale, she tells AU!Regina that she regrets never telling Hook that she loves him. But when the AU is broken, she chickens-out again. So, it's no surprise that she decides to sacrifice herself to fix her mistake without telling her family. And in the deleted part of the final scene, she at first tries to stop her parents and Regina from accompanying her to the UW to rescue Hook. It's all for the sake of drama, but it certainly makes it seem like these characters have a hard time learning from their mistakes.

Oh, and this is "the family she always wanted." I'm crying a little because I'm remembering Snow in the Echo Caves where the best thing she had to say is that what they had with Emma is...unique...

 

That is just sad. The Dark Swan arc would have added something more to their relationship with Emma if they had bothered to seek out Emma even once in Storybrooke. But to their credit, Snow and Charming have left Baby DoOver with the fairies while they go to the UW to help Emma get her Happy Ending back. Until now, it's always been the other way around. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

If the gang were to go back to the Enchanted Forest I wonder what Emma's job would be other than Princess. Would she be sheriff of The Enchanted Forest or would she just be Princess? Also would Snow finally be considered as a Queen or stuck as a Princess?

[YaddaYadda]

I think the question is, would Emma want to be in the role of "princess"? 

[Camera One]

They're both "Regina's sidekick".

[Faemonic]

From what little I know of European monarchy....

 

If Regina remains Queen, then Snow White remains a princess (at most, Princess Regent, in the case that Queen Regina isn't actually passing laws and investing treasuries and commanding the military) and Emma would be an Arch-Duchess. If Henry takes after Regina, he'll be a prince; if Henry takes after Emma, he'll be a Duke. If we do away with the Arch nonsense and make Emma a Duchess, I think Henry would be an Earl or a Count.

 

I've been trying to keep to titles by bloodline rather than lands or responsibilities over people, but with claims to so many thrones, Henry will probably be the Enchanted Forest's first Emperor. In any case, he can do away with the lower of the ranks, or without the empire and if he wants to confuse people then he'll be both a prince and a duke of Leopold's house, if there are any principalities or dukedoms he could be in charge of, or if They just say So.

 

If Snow White is Queen, then Emma would be Princess, and Henry would be Arch-Duke or Duke. Or Emperor. If Regina isn't dead for Snow White to become Queen, then Regina's title...can get messy. Regina can settle for Dowager Queen (dowager, as in inherited the title from Leopold), as opposed to Snow White as Queen Regent (regent, as in the one who actually does stuff). Or: Regina could be Queen, while Snow White could be High Queen (and Emma could be another Queen subservient to the High Queen, and Henry would be a prince; or Emma could be Crown Princess because she's heir apparent, and Henry could be Prince or Duke/Arch-Duke).

 

Or Regina could be demoted all the way to Lady to save confusion, unless she has claims to lands and titles from Henry Sr.'s side.

 

To save her head from exploding, and to promote American democracy, Emma might abdicate so hard that she won't even be a Lady. But she might not need to, because I could be completely wrong. The Charmings' kingdom could operate more like a sheikdom for all we know, and from what I'm told of the sheikdom...inheritance is horizontal rather than vertical. I do not know what that means, but I trust my source. But I don't trust myself that applies to a Sultanate as well as a Sheikdom.

[YaddaYadda]

Technically, Regina would be Queen regent (if she is named regent) until Snow would've come of age, and then Snow would have been queen in both names and function. Emma would still have been a princess, but probably a titled one (duchess of whatever).